Home→Forums→Relationships→Depressed due to guilt and fear
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March 17, 2016 at 2:27 pm #99310AnonymousGuest
Dear Ravi:
Like you wrote from your own experience, a professional counselor can be impatient and not understanding… professionals of all fields are often enough, unfortunately, not competent and/ or not consistently competent. They have their moments… Can’t trust a person because of a certificate they hold, a financial or social status… and so forth.
The way you help me, Ravi, is by being honest and sincere and assertive as you have been with me. You help me by being yourself, as you are, not here to please me or anyone, but in search of being mentally healthy and your authentic self. Communicating with a person such as yourself, these characteristics I just listed, is not common and in so, it is helpful to me. It is through our interactions that I learn more and more.
Regarding what you wrote, very meaningful, and please pay attention to this: you wrote: “in the heat of anger… this voice inside me telling me, ‘don’t be a coward, just say it or you’ll blame yourself … for not having the guts to fight back.”
If there is anything I can teach you, or you can learn from me, more than anything, it is the following point: You have to fight back. Not by abusing another in the heat of anger, but you have to fight!
This is the valid message in your anger each and every time: fight back! Fight back! This is the valid message.
If you don’t listen to this message, you lose. Lose a whole lot.
Remember the presumed dangerous neighbor and how you wanted, in your way then, to fight and your parents told you to be quiet and say nothing? Remember the anger then? This is the anger still, the same anger. If you remain silent, the anger will persist and grow.
Only in the heat of the moment, you fight the wrong person for the wrong aim. But fight you must.
What do you think about the message of fighting? Fighting what? Take your time with that…
anita
March 17, 2016 at 8:07 pm #99329ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYou’re very right, Anita. That’s why I chose not to go for more professional counseling, especially in my place where corruption is predominant. Perhaps would be just a waste of money and time, making the situation worse. I indeed am trying my best to be honest as I have nothing to hide here, nobody knows I’m here. I should mention though, I’m here more for her and not just for myself. Not boasting but I honestly find that I’m much more motivated to work for something after knowing that I’m doing it for someone I love. She had said to me, “please be with me always”. Though she won’t admit it now, I know what I meant to her too in her tough times. I know how much she’s hurt, all due to me. I truly do want to make up for my sins and earn back the right to be with her. Not just for my happiness, but hers too.
Regarding fighting back, I’m not sure but it might have something to do with something I suffered at a young age. There was a guy who used to beat me up in school for fun, and when I went home crying, my parents told me not to fight back, or the teacher will consider me guilty too. Just report him to her. I didn’t do it as I was afraid of the strict teacher, and afraid that the guy will get angry that I told on him and hit me even harder when he finds me alone. So I endured this bullying for about 2-3 years until I finally got sick of it and decided to strike back. Funnily, the only time I’ve ever hit anyone physically in my life to this day. There were a few more incidents in higher classes later where some mouthy guy insulted my family and my response was apparently insufficient; a “friend” goaded me saying – “Look, he insulted your family and this is all you respond? You’re a spineless worm, a loser, a (insert demeaning noun)”. This same guy and his friends filled my head with such rubbish for 2 years… “you’re useless as your grandmother has turned you into a dummy, you can’t even drive a bicycle properly, nobody will ever like you…”.
The neighbour incident also counts, yes. I suspect this is what instilled subconsciously in me, this desire to “fight back” unreasonably, even when its overkill. Because in those days I spent myself brooding over my friends’ words calling me a coward for long, fantasizing about what I should’ve done so people didn’t think I am a wimp. I guess my brain, after perceiving an insult from Jerry though she intended none, just told me “if you let her get away with it, you’ll hail yourself as a wimp forever.” She’s just an innocent victim of the detestable person that I’ve become. 🙁
March 17, 2016 at 9:34 pm #99334AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
How about aiming then for Ravi to no longer be a wimp, and instead be Ravi the Fighter. Fighting hardly ever will mean physically fighting. I hope not. It means talking about yourself respectfully (not saying you are a “detestable person”- that is attacking yourself and as Ravi the Fighter, rule number one is : do not attack yourself!) and when someone is disrespecting you, attacking you with words, you verbally assert yourself right there and then. No longer being quiet. No longer accepting aggression from another passively.
Over time, as you practice being assertive, your anger will lose its explosiveness and it will not take you by surprise at inappropriate times.
What says you…?
anita
March 18, 2016 at 12:56 am #99339ravi_zimmerfanParticipantIts true, Anita. But I currently am feeling totally drained. I truly loathe myself for how I treated her, someone I love beyond words. Right now she messaged me saying – “I once considered you my brother, so I hope you know I’ll never mean you harm. Good luck and take care.” I don’t know what it means, if she’ll ever be ready to be with me again. I’ve sent a message suggesting we can be friends again, that I’ll always care for her. But her cold and offended tone truly stabs me and I know only I’m responsible for it. 🙁 And even if we reunite by some miracle, if such an incident ever happens again, it’ll be the end definitely.
March 18, 2016 at 4:46 am #99343AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I can read your feelings of despair, great regret. And I read how intensely you disapprove of your behavior toward her when you were angry, when you automatically reacted to your rage. I understand loathing what you said to her, wishing you could take those words back. You would do a whole lot if there was something to do, so to take those words back.
Did you tell (write) her this, how much you regret those things you wrote to her and about her (what the psych student “friend” shared with her)? Did you tell her that you felt out of control when you said those words? Did you tell her it comes, this rage (intense anger) comes from a lifetime of you having been trained to be passive, to take abuse quietly?
Not as an excuse because abusing her cannot be justified by the reasons for your rage, as understandable and valid as they are, but so that she understands the depth of your regret?
And then, did you, or will you communicate with her that until you deal with your rage, rage built in you from way, way before you ever met her, you will do the right thing and have no contact with her. And then ask her if it would be okay, once you process your rage enough, once you build enough assertiveness with the people in your life, if it would be okay with her that you contact her again?
You can write to her that because your expressions of rage were so automatic and felt out of your control that you have to heal from that rage first, before you attempt to be friends with her again. Tell her how much you value her and her brotherly love for you. Tell her you value her so much that you will do everything you can to heal from your rage so to be worthy of her friendship?
Waiting for your answer.
anita
March 18, 2016 at 5:29 am #99347ravi_zimmerfanParticipantActually, what the “friend” shared with her wasn’t offensive in general terms. I had merely expressed that my feelings for Jerry were no longer brotherly, and I perhaps should accept my changed feelings for her. However, she feels hurt and offended because she told me before that I’m the only boy apart from her cousin that she ever talks to, she always distrusted being with boys but it was only me who won her love and trust to this extent, and therefore she loved me as a brother and hopes I’ll always be this way. I did not have any ill will when I realized I loved her more than a sister. I did not lust for her, or flirt or say any cheap things (at least not intentionally). My respect and care for her remain the same, if not more. But she obviously feels betrayed that the only boy she ever loved so much as a brother, now developed romantic feelings for her (for lack of a better word – I’m not a romantic person as such). 🙁
This is exactly the problem. All those words of regret and apology, I must’ve her told her a thousand times now. And I did mean them… but the foul temper always gets the worst of me and the incidents repeat. She has no reason to believe in my sincerity. 🙁 I did tell her she means a lot to me… I avoided too much contact recently, both out of respect for her feelings, out of guilt and making sure things cool down and I improve myself and make myself worthy too. The brother-sister thing is over, I don’t feel we can ever be that way again. I cannot stop loving her either. My only wish is to push back my feelings for now and be friends with her again, when she is willing and I’ve changed myself. Everything else can be considered later.
I feel that avoiding contact completely might cause our bond to decay. Is it true? I messaged her yesterday after a gap of 5 days, am hoping to message again on Wednesday on a festival here. After that, I really dunno how to proceed. I need guidance.
I messaged her this today – “I still consider you a wonderful and unique friend. I’ve pushed back my feelings as I believe in our bond and its most important for me. Though I have no right to ask, I hope you eventually will agree to be friends again. I care for you too, always.” Hope it’s not inappropriate. My inexperience with relationships shows clearly. 🙁
March 18, 2016 at 6:04 am #99351AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I understand now the part your “friend” shared with her some time ago, that the communication shared was not you being angry, but you having feelings for Jerry beyond brother-sister feelings.
There are a few issues here that need to be separated.
1) Your uncontrolled, abusive expressions of anger toward her (and to her about others)
2) The fact that this relationship with Jerry, as a hoped for romantic relationship, or girlfriend/ boyfriend relationship has been, from the beginning, very unlikely and remains unlikely… even if #1 did not exist as a problem! The most you could have had with Jerry was a sisterly- brotherly relationship, that is what it was. And even though it seems to me that there was more, much more, what was is all she has ever felt willing and capable of having with you.In other words, no matter how calm and loving you would have been, no matter if you were never expressed anger at her inappropriately… no matter, there could not be a relationship with her beyond what was. I write that because she told you so. She told you the consequences for her would be terrible. She didn’t even want to talk to you on the phone, saying the reason she talked to you on the phone was that it was costing you money.
So all hoped for relationship with her can only be online/ through texting.
And then, being the scared 20 year old very young woman that she is, her parents will probably want her to get married soon enough and she will accommodate. She is too scared and too obedient to refuse such.
Again, I do believe there was real love on her part toward you for a long time, and that it was- for her (!) beyond a sister- brother love: it was simply love. But at the same time, there is no future for this love beyond online and texting and that may stop- even if you were a perfect human being- when she gets married to whom her parents want her to marry.
Isn’t it so?
anita
March 18, 2016 at 6:22 am #99353ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYou summed it up accurately, Anita. I don’t know about the future, but truly my heart does not accept that this is all there could ever be. I’m not naive to believe in fairy-tale endings and all, but I do know what we meant and still mean to each other. Much, much more than either of us (especially she) is willing to express. When we talked on phone, she sounded a little nervous initially, I asked her to be calm and relax, and she laughed at my words. I cannot express what I felt as I heard it. More than that, I truly did feel that she was much happy talking to me, even if she didn’t admit it. I’m not saying she too loved me in this manner, but after I confessed my feelings for her, she said – “I don’t know why you felt this because we never shared anything personal, always talked just about our Facebook page, TV show and all. I always made it clear I consider you my bro.” The first part simply is not true. We did share a lot of personal info, much more than we ever did with anyone else. She herself admitted it. I feel she’s afraid to express it, due to her family or own personal code or whatever.
I do believe in what my heart says, that we did not get so close for it to end just like this or be limited to an online friendship. And though I always try to be rational, I cannot help but consider Paulo Coelho’s famous Alchemist quote. At least from my side, I know my heart cannot love anybody else the way I love her. I just wish to follow my heart, prove myself worthy and do my best, and leave the rest to karma or whatever.
March 18, 2016 at 7:00 am #99359AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
From reading your posts I get the feeling that you are correct in your understanding that she loved or loves you too, no doubt in my mind, best I can tell. And I can see why she would deny- or not even be aware of the nature of her feelings to you, being too scared and cautious.
I also believe that what you wrote, “her family …code”, is more powerful than anything. After all, see how your own family code is powerful in your life! One of your family codes is to be quietly submissive and not assert yourself, not with grandmother, and not with the bully in school. And you followed that code to your own detriment and as a result, a natural result of your anger having nowhere to go, it expresses itself in the wrong places, wrong times, wrong people as you continue to be passive with ex. grandmother. It is fear that is keeping you passive with grandmother… and parents, perhaps. You were… trained that way. Even though it hurts you, you are too afraid to do something (be assertive) because you were trained to be passive.
In a similar way, she was trained to follow her own family code, and part of that code is to be obedient to her parents about her love life, and if you don’t fit that code, you are out. It would be too scary for her to defy the code of her family, just as it is scary for you to assert yourself with your grandmother.
I will be focusing now on another thread and will be back after a while.
anita
March 18, 2016 at 7:23 am #99362ravi_zimmerfanParticipantThat’s very true, Anita. Both regarding family codes, and the nature of our feelings. Last year, when she felt I pay more attention to others than her, she felt ignored and expressed at least some amount of possessiveness in questioning me about it. I hadn’t paid much attention then, but recently when I talked to her about it, she replied, “I don’t deny having felt insecure, but I have no problem as they are your friends/sisters too. I didn’t do anything so special that you love me more than them.” I do feel that if we both truly loved each other, we could have convinced our families to accept our feelings eventually. But that’s a very long shot when: 1) I acted in such an irresponsible and deplorable manner to her, and 2) She herself isn’t willing to accept my feelings. The second part I’m not thinking about for now. I just want to change myself first, for her sake. Everything else can be looked into later.
In fact, in February after I confessed my feelings to my friends, they naturally told me that I have no chance of having my heart’s desire coming true, as she will never accept my feelings. They suggested I should try to be her friend, and that’s it. I knew I could not stop loving her, and thus felt its best to just leave her right then giving some excuse, so that all this fiasco that happened could’ve been spared. But I could not manage to stay away from her for more than a day and a half. I went back, leaving everything to fate and hoping that I could just be with her until she found out about my feelings (I had stopped calling her sis, giving some lame excuse). She’s a brilliant girl and found out far sooner than anyone could’ve expected.
I feel that whatever great things and heart’s desires have been accomplished in the world to this day, have been done by people with great courage against impossible odds by never giving up. I do know my love for her is as genuine as could be. It isn’t a crush, whim or infatuation out of her beauty or anything. I could have given up a while back if I wished… then I’d not have been here and none of this month’s fiasco would’ve happened either. But I chose the path of pain and uncertainty, because I believed in my heart and hers too. I just wish to be true to myself and not regret having not lived up to my love.
March 18, 2016 at 11:29 am #99406AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Then for her sake, for the sake of your love for her, you are willing to take the difficult path. You are willing to fight, to confront obstacles… Well, you have your path available to you right where you are: to learn a new way of being: asserting yourself with your grandmother and with your parents. This would be very difficult and scary for you. This is the almost “impossible odds and never giving up” that you are willing to do, for your love for her. Isn’t it?
Nothing more difficult than standing up to the people you submitted to all your life, since childhood. Nothing more difficult. As you assert yourself with them, respectfully but forcefully; verbally and not physically, your anger will get aimed where it belongs and as you get into the habit of asserting yourself with them, it will diminish in intensity and no longer boil under the surface, ready to explode when triggered.
The message in your explosive anger is that you are not supposed to be submissive to anyone, not to your grandmother, not to your parents, not to the (ex) bully at school, not to the neighbor. So assert yourself in every way available to you, at any time. Nothing too small to be worthy of your assertion. The more you practice, the better you get at it. The more you practice, the less scary and more of a habit it becomes… and the more mentally healthy you will be!
And mentally healthy and assertive will make you non explosive with jerry. It is the only way that will make it so that you will not fear exploding.
Can you do that, starting small, taking every opportunity to assert yourself appropriately (not abusively) with the people you live with now?
anita
March 18, 2016 at 12:12 pm #99413ravi_zimmerfanParticipantI will definitely do it, Anita. At least in these next few weeks, will try to change myself in that regard as much as possible. Still, I don’t feel using profanity or having violent thoughts can ever be good. That truly needs to be weeded out. I cannot go around saying “do you want XYZ to get (insert fatal disease)?” and other stuff I mentioned. Right now, ever since the incident with Jerry, I have not used even a single swear word and tried my best to control my irritation too. Due to some situation at my place right now, my grandma was passing comments that normally tick me off a lot, but I was able to tone down my irritation with the help of articles I found here, and diverted my focus elsewhere. Dunno how long it’ll work.
I also must make up to Jerry. It’s not something that can happen so soon or easily… and patience is a virtue I’ve not had much yet but I need to develop it for her, to prevent doing anything bad out of impatience.
March 18, 2016 at 12:31 pm #99417AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I am not suggesting you use profanity and “do you want XYZ…” kind of talk with your grandmother or anyone. Learning to be assertive and practicing it is a skill and an art. It does not involve profanity and violent talk. It is respectful but forceful, strong. You can say to your grandmother: “Respectfully, I need some privacy right now. I will be closing the door (to your room, if there is one) and need you to not talk to me through the door. Do not enter the room unless you knock first and unless I say ‘come in'”- this is an example. Being assertive is not being aggressive as in using profanity and threatening physical violence and it is not being passive as in letting someone talk to you whenever they feel like talking to you and enter your room whenever they want.
Maybe you can read more about Assertiveness. It is a set of skills to learn and practice. And that will take care of the explosive anger, channel it into effective and appropriate (assertive) expressions.
It is not enough to use will power as to control yourself to never use profanity. You have to practice being assertive every day with the people who violate your boundaries and who hurt you. You have to practice both: control AND assertiveness.
Please do so and let me know how it works out for you. I am very curious!
anita
March 18, 2016 at 12:56 pm #99422ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYes, actually being assertive isn’t all that hard for me. I do express myself that way to my parents when necessary and generally they do understand and co-operate with me (except in some matters like studies where I have no choice but to follow their wishes). The thing is when said argument escalates to an extent then I’m not able to control what I say. And in such moments my brain interprets what the other person is saying in an offensive manner and my reaction is much extreme and uncalled for, like happened with Jerry. I need self-control and restraint in such moments. Its not easy to practice since such arguments don’t happen so frequently (thankfully) but each time I remind myself of that Chinese proverb, “Patience in one moment of anger will save you from a thousand days of sorrow”. Everytime I promise myself to exercise that patience… but I fail. Its what caused all this.
March 18, 2016 at 4:41 pm #99444AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
You wrote above that you are assertive with your parents but arguments escalate. If there are arguments between you and your parents, and those arguments escalate, there is lack of assertiveness. When you are assertive, you don’t argue. You state what you need with strength. If you argue it means they did not respect your assertiveness. Doesn’t it?
I think you missed, in your last post, your real need (and the second part of the solution to your sometimes explosive anger, second to self control) to be assertive: with your parents. And with your grandmother ! And with every single person, family, friend, stranger… everyone!
Both: assertiveness and control. And patience, of course. Always patience.
anita
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