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Depressed due to guilt and fear

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  • #99460
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    That’s true, Anita. Patience is something I’m not able to exercise once that point of escalation is reached. Although I often try to prevent the arguments from escalating, and recently managed it with some amount of success, often it just happens without either of us actually realizing that what we’re saying actually is fueling on the argument. And then comes the issue where the emotional brain takes over and tells me, “don’t back down… fight back with all you got, if you have the guts!” It considers even assertiveness a weakness in that case, perhaps. Though my rational side knows that its wrong but I was not able to stop myself.

    Another thing is Jerry told me recently (for good reason) that I have been manipulative and treated her like a disposable tool and played with her emotions. Although I could never dream of treating her like that intentionally, plain fact is that in my anger and impatience, I did things that cannot leave any doubt about the truth of her words. Like after an argument which ended with me sending some especially awful message and storming off, she kept sending me sorry messages even if its not her fault and I kept ignoring them until the anger subsided. Sometimes I did it with genuine concern hoping to be normal first instead of causing more damage… but she felt “you don’t care for me enough to control your anger instead of giving priority to it and behaving like this”? I’ve also lost how many times I said stuff like “I’m just a useless piece of *censored*, I only hurt you all, I wish I just (insert painful method of death)”. And often I sent not just one message but often many long ones.’ Often it was in genuine frustration with myself… but the effect was the same. Its a mark of her love and care that each time she forgave me quietly, putting aside her own pain and tears, trying just to make me happy. It makes me loathe myself even more, love her even more, but I can imagine few things worse than what I did. I crossed all limits with this last argument… words like “may your tongue rot” cannot be excused under any circumstances and it will take extraordinary and permanent repentance from my side to be worthy of being with her again.

    #99466
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    If it wasn’t for how badly you feel and how sad it is what happens, “may your tongue rot” is almost funny. I am not minimizing how wrong the expressions of your anger at Jerry were. They were wrong. I am saying that your anger expressions are childish, you acted like a hurt, angry child. And it is obvious that your anger is fueled by all the times you didn’t stand up for yourself, didn’t fight the bully (shame your parents gave you such bad advice on that) and when peers told you that you were a wimp, a coward that cut you deep! So with Jerry of all people, you got triggered and was adamant to not be a coward.

    You wrote not much could be worse than what you did to Jerry. One thing could be worse: if you expressed your anger like that to your future child. That would have been way worse. I sure hope this is corrected by then!!!

    Again, assertiveness plus control. But assertiveness not only when you feel angry (then it may be too late and being aggressive is what you feel the need to be) but being assertive all the time, before you feel angry. This will heal you. Please pay attention to this. You may not be aware of all the daily opportunities you do have to be assertive before and without feeling angry. You need the practice!

    so, what are you going to do about Jerry? How many days has it been, I forgot. Give it more time? Write to her what you learned about being assertive and over time it reducing your anger and eliminating your aggression when angry? Tell her about the bully and the other experiences so that she can have an understanding of what triggered you? I am brainstorming here.

    anita

    #99479
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Yup I agree about that, Anita. I had mentioned that I’m not half as mature as you’d expect for a 26 year old guy. A direct result of having grown up like Rapunzel, being mollycoddled and with very little exposure to others, nearly total lack of independence and being subtly told I’m weak and not able to take care of myself, spending very little time with people of my own age. Not only Jerry but that incident I mentioned on the online forum, where some people spoke against my favourite actor… the voice inside said, “If you don’t strike back, you’re a coward forever for not having defended someone you love.” Same happened now. My brain interpreted that Jerry was offending my parents (when in fact she wasn’t) and it was deja vu.

    I will definitely do my best to identify such situations and practice assertiveness, try to develop more self confidence and cut down my ego. It’ll take time, I might fail to keep restraint initially before succeeding. But then, overcoming one’s natural faults from childhood days can’t happen without much effort. And future child brings the future to mind… I don’t want a future without her.

    The incident with Jerry happened on March 7th. She last messaged me yesterday, the message I posted on the previous page. I replied saying I still consider her a wonderful and unique friend, and I would subdue my feelings if only to be friends with her again eventually when she agrees. I didn’t know what else to say. She hasn’t replied yet and I’m merely brooding over her message debating whether she’s left me or not. Utter emotional anguish. I want to write about the childhood things, assertive and all I learned here… but after I promised to change myself for her so many times, she has no reason to believe me now. And the wounds are clearly still raw. I really am at a loss and feeling miserable.

    #99491
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    You wrote that you imagined that Jerry offended your parents and the voice in you told you to defend your parents.

    In my suggestion, again and again, that you assert yourself, i do not mean you defending your parents. I mean defending yourself. This is a big difference. Your parents and grandmother are responsible for the very rage that you are so troubled by, the very rage that wounded the woman you love. So, please do not defend them! Defend you!

    I do hope you identify situations for you to assert yourself.

    From what you described on this forum, about Jerry, it is very possible that she will give your communication another chance, simply because she did so in the past after previous explosions on your part. Of course, I wouldn’t recommend you taking your explosive expressions of anger lightly and count on her return to as-was. Change is necessary!

    What I am saying, is that it is a good possibility. There is nothing you can do but wait. Try to focus on exercising assertiveness and on other worthy pursuits as you wait. There is a lot of good you can do as you wait. But wait you must.

    Keep posting. And if she contacts you, and you are debating how to respond, you can post here- and if I am at the computer, i will open your thread first, at this point on, just in case you are asking for input on the matter.

    Take good care of yourself! Assert and defend… you!

    anita

    #99493
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Yup I understand that Anita. In a way I was defending myself only, because as in case with my favourite actor, the voice in my head says, “You are weak for not being able to stand up for your loved one”. I know, can’t deny my family’s role in shaping my short temper. But its also true that whatever I have gained today, I could not have done without them either and they always gave me whatever I wanted (other than independence). So its natural to have felt defensive. As an aside, I feel the very same way for Jerry as well, if not more. A few days back, my parents noticed I was depressed and asked why. I said shortly that its due to an argument with a friend, which was my fault. And this convo occurred –

    Mom: Right now, nothing is more important for you than your studies. Your “friend” is actually your greatest enemy because he/she is distracting you from studies. They are taking advantage as you are such a sweet and innocent boy. Whatever you did must’ve been for a very good reason, you can never be blamed. That “friend” is a horrible person who hurt you, clearly.
    Me: Mom, please stop now. Don’t make comments on someone you don’t even know. It was my fault only and its no use denying it. My friend did nothing wrong and in fact always encourages me to not spend too much time online, and study well. I’m sure even the parents of all the criminals and terrorists out there must be feeling their sons are just misunderstood cute little boys.
    Mom: No, don’t think we are biased. If you ever did anything wrong, we’d tell you at once.
    Me: I know how many times you did that to this day. Please accept the truth for once.
    Mom: It doesn’t matter if you’re a so-called bad person as long as you get a good job. So just forget it and study, study, study.

    The best I can say is I controlled my temper because those words against Jerry (though they don’t know her) really got my temper up.

    I do feel in my heart that we’ll be reunited eventually. But I do not wish such bad incidents to repeat ever again. That’s why I’ll strictly practice assertiveness and non-violence in behaviour henceforth. Until then, I am giving her time to relax and come to terms with these changes… praying for the best. Thanks a lot again. 🙂

    #99496
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    As you wait, I am here, on this forum, waiting with you.

    Your verbal exchange with your mother (I am not calling it a “conversation” because if it was a conversation, your mother would have listened to what you said before responding, and she didn’t) made me think of you getting angry your valuable possessions being touched by others, with dirty hands. Remember you shared that with me?

    Jerry is very, very valuable to you. And here, your mother is “touching” that valuable person in your life with “dirty hands” calling her a Horrible Person and your Greatest Enemy.

    I think this is a pattern, where things valuable to you, your very feelings, are tainted with words like your mother has done. when you got angry at a friend and said something like: you want her to die so you alone own me, it was your mother you were projecting into that friend, I believe. Is this what your grandmother does as well?

    Your response to your mother was reasonable but she didn’t listen. And then she added that it is not important whether you are a good or bad person as long as you study and get a good job.

    And she said: “They are taking advantage as you are such a sweet and innocent boy. Whatever you did must’ve been for a very good reason, you can never be blamed.”

    What…? Where is the teaching of personal responsibility? “You can’t be blamed”? I agree that in the context of your relationship with your mother you can’t be blamed. Because she is the guilty one.

    Save yourself from this insanity, Ravi! You are responsible for your actions. It is important whether you are a good or bad person. Other people are not automatically guilty and you are not automatically innocent.

    Will be waiting with you. But will not be passively waiting and hope you will not either.

    anita

    #99527
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    I totally agree Anita. You have analyzed and related the two situations very well. Though nowadays I don’t care that much about possessions but it’s true that a person whom I love so much being “tainted” by someone through harsh words, intentional or perceived, elicits that violent reaction from me. It happened when my favourite actor was being targeted by haters, when Jerry said something about my parents (which I perceived wrongly) and when my mom targeted her wrongly. Funny thing is, after finding me depressed, my parents took me aside saying, “We’re your friends and not just parents. Don’t hesitate to share your feelings.” And then this happens. I don’t feel she could understand even 0.1% of my feelings if she truly considered me a friend.

    Yes, my grandma always used to do this as well. There was an incident back in 5th standard or so, when I had found a rare foreign coin lying on the ground in school… and later when it was found out to be belong to one of my classmates, I did not want to give it back but had to after he told the teacher. When I was upset about this at home, my grandma says – “They’ll bury him one day with that useless coin. We’ll give you whatever you want, now just forget that.” OK, at that time I was just an ignorant kid and if the same had happened now, I’d have given the item back as soon as I found it. But I just wanted to show here that I was always treated as someone very delicate and innocent who is targeted by the big, bad world and therefore needs to be protected. And going by my mom’s words recently, it’s not changed at all. They don’t want me to take responsibility for my actions. They’re so obsessed with my studies that they can see nothing else. I know they have good reason to, because the exam I’ll be taking is a very crucial one for my career, but still I do feel values and personality are equally important, if not more.

    This same thing happened with my other good friend who had been insecure of my love for Jerry. After the argument when I had been speaking really badly of Jerry to her, after the latter’s apology, I felt really guilty and expressed my guilt to the other friend. She initially kept saying, “It’s not your fault, you were just angry, you are a very good person with great values.” It was only after another friend frankly told me the truth – that I’m a vicious beast for having treated Jerry that way – and I told her that I’m glad he was honest to me, that she finally confessed that even she was disgusted by my behaviour and has no more to say. I just hate it when people do this, trying to defend my actions and calling me innocent just so I don’t feel bad, when my conscience knows the truth. As long as I don’t accept the truth that I no longer am a good person and have become a foul and deplorable individual, I cannot successfully change myself and prevent such incidents from happening again.

    Thanks again for being here. Truly means a lot to me.

    #99528
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    You are welcome. You see things clearly and i am glad you do. One correction, if I may: the behaviors we discussed, your behaviors were deplorable, and at the time you engaged in those behaviors you were deplorable, but you are not permanently deplorable, only when you engaged in those behaviors and only if you repeat them with no sincere and real efforts to stop them.

    Your insight and efforts to not repeat, to learn and do what it takes to not repeat, this means you are not a foul and deplorable individual. You are much more than those behaviors that you practiced in the PAST.

    The teaching by your mother and grandmother, that nothing is ever your fault and everyone else is automatically guilty, that is deplorable. And… they repeat that bad teaching… and they are not trying to stop this bad teaching, bad behavior on their part…. even though you told them that they are wrong. They won’t look into themselves so no chance of them correcting their bad behavior.

    I should stop talking about your parents and grandmother, only I want you to face it that they are wrong indeed, ignorant, I suppose, but also closed to any input, any evaluation of their behavior. But you are open, so see them as they are and adhere to what is true. Have your loyalty be with the Truth above all.

    Well, I am here and I know you are waiting. Will be waiting with you still. Bed time for me in a few moments (WA, USA)

    anita

    #99530
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Yes, that’s why I have been doing my best to make up for what I did in the past, and make a sincere effort to correct this behaviour. But it feels truly dreadful when I do make a sincere effort and it works for a while, before happening again… sometimes even worse than the previous time. At times it even happened in front of others; I treated her so badly in front of our other friends in a group chat. At that time when we were having arguments due to our differences over the haters, she used to say, “By treating me like this, you’ve shown your priorities by your actions… those haters mean more to you than me and that’s why, owing to your obsession regarding them, you’re treating me like this. If you truly loved me, then you would’ve controlled your anger and tried to understand what I’m trying to say. Do a true brother and sister fight like this in public? Our friends have seen only our fights, will they ever believe that we share a special bond?” Later I did write poems for her and create some gifts which I posted in public for all to see, to make up for this. Now as we know, for whatever reason she’s denying that we even share a special bond. But wasn’t she totally right to feel so hurt? Why would she believe I did make sincere efforts, when the incidents happened again a million times? 🙁

    Recently after one of our arguments last month, when she blocked me on our messenger app, my temper flared up again and I blocked her in return and left. Later when things cooled down, she said – “See? I knew it. Instead of trying to understand my feelings and why I had blocked you, you just blocked me in return and went away.” Remembering all this really depresses me and makes me dislike myself. After all, in a relation the male is always expected to be calm, confident and understanding, and to make her feel secure and happy. I cannot be so touchy with a huge ego and short temper. I feel it’s something I truly do need to change about myself, first of all, and think about the rest later. I’m motivating myself to change accordingly for her.

    #99533
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    I concur with Jerry’s comments as you quoted them. Her thinking clear and correct. The abusive expressions of your anger toward Jerry were opposite to acts of love, and the poems you later posted do not neutralize those acts of hate (intense anger, words/ acts meant to hurt).

    What to do?

    1. Understand that you are not responsible for the creation of your rage and the urge to relieve yourself of it in the ways you have. Also understand that you are now responsible to end these ways of expressing your anger… because nobody will do it for you, and nobody can.

    2.Assert yourself with the people who are presently in your life, especially with your parents and grandmother. Because they are responsible for the creation of this problem (from which you suffer, as well as Jerry), asserting yourself with them is more important than you asserting yourself with anyone else. In fact, if you can’t assert yourself with them, if you are passive and quiet with them, stewing inside with anger, you … should move out.

    3. Keep a journal, perhaps, of your healing journey from being the abusively angry person to being the assertive, none abusive person you are becoming. Date each entry, keep it relatively short. After a month, two months, as long as it takes.. send Jerry that journal, so she can see the real over-time work you are doing in this pursuit, tangible steps you take (#2) instead of mere promises.

    What do you think?

    anita

    #99542
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    That indeed is the right choice of action. Thanks Anita. It just feels truly bad thinking how bad she felt all due to me, I cannot believe I made someone whom I love so much feel like this. All the more worse thinking the past cannot be undone. No matter how many times I told myself “patience in one moment of anger can save you from a hundred days of sorrow”, I rarely managed to prevent myself from hurting her. But yes, I will make absolutely every possible effort to do it now. At least from March 8th I’ve not used a single swear word, even by mistake. I do believe I can fully change myself, for her. I had already been keeping a diary of sorts to vent my depression; I will now use it to keep the journal of my self-change as you mentioned. A far more healthy and productive pursuit. I do hope she eventually understands I truly care for her and changed myself for her alone.

    Regarding #2, I shared my views we discussed with my parents today and they agreed that keeping me subdued like this is the root of my deteriorating personality, anger and lack of self confidence. They told me that recently one of my teachers noticed this and criticized them for the same. They did agree to co-operate with me in overcoming this… let’s hope it comes out good.

    #99545
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Good work on your part, communicating with your parents. The fact that they told you that one of your teachers criticized them is encouraging to me: the fact that they took in the criticism and are willing to evaluate their behavior toward you. Keep an ongoing communication with them, reminding them what they said themselves (when they forget..)

    Also, assert yourself with your grandmother. If your parents repeat that you should be quiet and just let her say or do whatever she wants, let them know that for your own good, for your own well being, you have to assert yourself with her too. And if the grandmother complains to your parents about your (respectful but strong) assertiveness, tell your parents they will have to choose between your well being and your grandmother’s discomfort (about you doing what promotes your well being). Do they want your mental well being sacrificed so to please your grandmother (who is not going to be sufficiently pleased no matter what you or anyone else does)?

    I think Jerry’s mental state as expressed in what she communicated to you, is pretty good. As I wrote, she sees clearly what is going on. She knows what love is and what it is not. So, you didn’t take that away from her by your behavior (relief!)

    As you keep the journal, make it honest, not directed at influencing Jerry when she reads it, but as an honest record of what you do… including the conversation with your parents, that you wrote about in your last post: that should definitely be in the journal.

    anita

    #99572
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    It just occurred to me and i wanted to make the point to you about Will Power: how strongly you decided in the past to no longer explode in anger abusively but failed to do so…again and again you re-instated your Will Power, restated your strong decision and intent to not explode abusively in anger and failed…

    The anger in you, that intense anger has been there in you for a long time (physically it means there are strong connections in between the nerve cells of your brain leading to this explosive behavior). This intense anger, rage, is very powerful. Again and again, it proved to be more powerful than your Will Power, that is the power of your decision making, your resolution.

    It is like you are facing a hungry powerful lion. And each time, you are fighting it with your bare hands, no weapons. And each time (in this example) the lion wins and eats you. Somehow (in this example) you are resurrected, and facing the same lion. Again, you are fighting it with your bare hands, no weapons and again, it wins and you are eaten alive.

    At one point, you figure: I am not powerful enough to win a fight with this lion. The lion is more powerful than me, than my bare arms. And you notice there is a weapon you can use, a spear. The lion is in front of you, threatening to consume you. You take the spear and send it through the lion’s heart. The lion dies and you live.

    At one point, Ravi, you figure: my Will Power, the power of my decision making is not strong enough to fight this explosively abusive anger. Every time I fought the rage with my will power, I lost. Maybe I should use a weapon.

    The weapon is the ongoing, daily practice of you being assertive with everyone in your life, parents, grandmother and everyone else. That is the weapon.

    Will Power is powerful enough against certain things: let’s say you don’t feel like studying anymore, but you have a big test the next day, so you use your will power (after a stretching break) to study more. In this example your will power was powerful enough because the power of your tiredness was not that powerful.

    But as far as your explosive anger, it has proven time and time again, to be more powerful than your Will Power alone.

    So the work in front of you is the use of the weapon, the ongoing assertiveness.

    Will be away from the computer for hours.

    Take care:
    anita

    #99580
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Yup I am glad that they understood. Regarding my grandma… trying to reason with her is a totally futile attempt. We tried and failed from years and years. Recently something crucial and urgent happened and my parents attended to it, something which she would never have let them do, but they realized its importance and just ignored her outbursts. So I used that as a point, and asked them when they chose to go against her wishes regarding that issue, why not let me be independent too after knowing that its affecting my psyche and personality otherwise. They had to agree. Must say this issue happened right on ideal time in order to let me have this point. 😛

    Yes Jerry’s sense of judgement and observation is really sharp and unbiased, one of the many things I love about her. However this conversation I mentioned occurred nearly a year ago and this last argument is sadly very recent. I just wish to make up for it and genuinely make sure it never happens again. Though going by what she’s said after the argument, she seems more troubled by my changed feelings for her rather than the argument/foul words. Need to think how to deal with that too. She might ask me to promise to be just a friend and let go of my feelings as it will never work… but though I may keep quiet out of respect for her, I cannot change what my heart feels.

    Yes that’s what I wish the journal to be; a heartfelt record of genuine effort. 🙂

    #99586
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Dear Anita, thanks a lot for the second post. Your analogy of the lion really rings a bell with me. In my case, as I personalized it when sharing with my friends, I consider it something like a dragon in my head. If you saw the Pixar movie Inside Out, it’s almost as if a dragon slowly took birth in my mind and convinces all the emotions to go haywire and push the wrong buttons in my head, while my rational side screams reason and sense in some corner but is unable to overcome the dragon (sort of like Joy trying to convince the other emotions in the film).

    The weapon of assertiveness and practice definitely is there. As is another weapon, a much stronger driving force… my love for Jerry. I truly had nearly managed to change myself last year. After I had stormed off after a fight saying I’ll never return, she sent me such a genuinely sad and apologizing message that it melted my heart and made me feel so much for her. Even after we made up and were normal, I used to go through that sad message of hers just because it made me love her even more, feel more determined to never make her sad again.

    Sadly my extreme possessiveness over her and jealousy over her love for her cousin brother made the dragon take over my mind again, stronger than before. Even now, her recent apology to me I had mentioned (“though he hurt me, I’ll always pray for him and think good for him”) makes me feel for her as much as I did last year. Before she had sent this message, the dragon was totally rooted in my head, making me think wrongly and say words I’d never imagine to say otherwise… and once I saw her message, all the negativity simply vaporized and was replaced with affection and guilt. Of course, I feel it needs to be allied with practice, reason and determination in order to succeed in changing myself.

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