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Dilemma about past/present/future

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  • #94701
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    Before reading your post above I was thinking about you, and about the part of your post before, worrying about your adult son’s reaction to you divorcing and moving in with the other man. I was wondering how worried you are about his reaction, how old he is… seems well adjusted to life from what you shared…

    And then to you last post, “waiting for the day to be released from the fake life I am currently living”- this is a powerful sentence! Notice the passive verb form: “to be released”- who is to do the releasing?

    This sentence makes me want to scream (like at the screen during that scene in The Bridges of Madison County”) – Do it! Do it, Nan: release yourself from the fake life you are currently living!

    anita

    #94844
    Nan
    Participant

    HI Anita,
    My 20 year old son is in college, junior year. He know nothing of what is in my mind or heart. Not his businees at the moment, as he is very enmeshed and friendly with his dad ( my husband), calling and texting dialy to talk about sports, and college life with him. He does call me once in awhile when needing an academic question or advice, and to let me know he needs books ordered or etc, about school. See, I am the academic one and Dad is the sports buddy. I know nothing of sports and couldnt be bored more with it. So, we have our roles with kiddo.
    My son will contact me and tell me what a “skank” I am if not worse words. He doesnt understand, as he has never had a serious girlfriend and quite the player as it were. Feels women are a “pain in the …ss.
    So, I am good with that, I know deep within me, that I gave it all for him and made sure he was confident, strong and serious about his education. ( Dirty, dark secret, I have 5 abortions before him, as pressed by my husband and how a kid wouldn’t fit in our life at the time). I finally grew some cahones, and defied my husband on the 6th pregnancy and he backed down, but not after a month of attempting to strongly coerce me to have another abortion. Secretly, I wanted a child so much, but acquiesced to him every time. So ironic that they are the best of buddies now. Absolutely no one knows of this, except my husband and me.

    You are correct, on the releasing. It is ME that has to leave, even though it is my house and my belongings. I cant speak logically or calmly to the husband, not sure of emotional collapse or violence that may come of it. We have never soulfully talked, as he is uncomfortable with being insightful. I am saving money in order to pay for a hotel room for about 3 weeks at the cost of a couple thousand. Drop a letter with short concise info, as in ”
    Cant do this anymore, dont have it in me anymore, no love anymore?. WIll not bring up other, as this will just have hime focus his rage on the other and how that bastard came back around again! ( tHOUGH IT HAS BEEN 40 yEARS).If he doesn not vacate the hosue in 3 weeks, I will calmly tell him I cant pay an aprtment for myself, and the house, so I am wiling to foreclose it, I dont give a damn. That is what I am prepared to do. Having paid for everything, he will need to start paying his way in this life, as I have spent most of my money and he has saved his. Let him take his savings ( 40K) and make a life for himself. Material things dont mean a damn thing to me anymore, and once the timing is right, I will bounce from this. I have a high level super-responsible job, so have to wait a few months til June, when I can take some time off for the storms that will engulf me. I will definitely live alone, so I can figure out my next step. My beloved can come visit or I with him for a few days at a time, until the storms settle down. That be my plan so far. You thoughts?

    #94853
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan

    My thoughts:

    The opinion, view of your husband and your son about who you are and who women are- these are set and will remain the same whether you stay or go. If you leave the marriage, I guess there will be much.. talk between your husband and son and since your son already refers to you as a skank (unfortunately), he still will afterward. You leaving the marriage will not harm your son:he will still call his father often and talk about his life and sports…and will still call you for books and academic questions, i am guessing.

    I am guessing a lot of your son’s attitude about women being “a pain in the ass” comes from his father and so his father, your husband should be relieved that his “pain in the ass” is gone!

    I think it is wise to consider the stress to come with the separation and divorce and to plan it so that your high level job will not suffer significantly.

    I think you should get a good lawyer to protect your legal and financial rights and to come to a fair financial settlement for you.

    I think waiting is not wise otherwise, that it is your fears that keep you in this marriage that is long overdue. I understand fear and I do not minimize it. What I am saying that from my point of view, not having your fears, there is no otherwise logical reason to stay in this marriage.

    Even if you didn’t connect with the ex husband, this marriage is long overdue.

    And your thoughts…?

    anita

    #94936
    Nan
    Participant

    Dear Anita,
    Yes, I have had a “melancholy” marriage for a dozen years or more. You know the one, where something is missing, but cant put your thoughts clearly on what it is? NO fights, no arguments, just feeling taken for granted. I rarely asked for discussions, because the discussions would deteriorate into “How miserable can you be? What about me?” He always mentioned how my education and life were so much better than his. It is because I am college-educated and continued to push for higher jobs ambitiously. This is a man who didnt know how to work a computer, until forced to learn a little through his low-level jobs. I had thought when he was unemployed for about 18 months 10 years ago, he would have taken some courses or learning to find a skill or job he could do. Nope, he laid on the couch, but did clean the house and cook meals while I worked and paid everything. He remains in lower level jobs, and that is why I am the breadwinner, and he is the saver. I have always never bitched or moaned, because he always said he had a lousy life, and why am I complaining? I have a career, etc……….. the negotiation between us ( or actually the mandate to me) was that he would save his money for us, and I would pay the bills. To be honest, he has been a good saver, but I know not to touch it. Still feels like “his money” and “my money” separate. We do have separate checking accounts.
    Have spoken to a lawyer, about the “What if” on this.. It appears in this state, there is no “no-fault”, so either have to have desertion for one year, or infidelity or mental illness, as a cause. After that, then the finances are initially split 50/50, and then negotiations start. This means I may be subject to alimony payments to him, because I make more. Also, in this backward state, if infidelity, desertion, etc are the reason, the person who is at fault, will be subject to having to give more to the “injured party”. So, I know what could happen in worst case scenario. Oh well, cant take it with you, huh?
    I also may be liable for paying the exorbitant tuition for the son to finish his last year. I know the storm will be abominable, but have to be tolerated.
    Thank you for your logical kindness.!

    #94945
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    You are welcome!

    My goodness! This communication with the first husband must remain a secret then! because the infidelity reason can cost you much more money than otherwise, correct?

    Talking about money, him being the one who saves… that gives him an advantage if you are not aware of where the money is. Do you know where the money is? Do you have the papers and info and all the numbers make sense? And everything is in both names?

    Then, other than money: it must have been tough all those years to be the one who has no… right to be miserable or distressed or troubled and he being the one with such… right. As if there is no validity to your other-than-happy feelings and there is validity to his! That is bs, of course. Not true (you shared here your childhood, for one… and there is plenty of reason and validity to your less than happy feelings at any time) and not fair.

    The fact that there were no arguments before means you accepted his view, in practice: you accepted him being the disadvantaged in life party to the partnership, and you, the one with the advantage. Does it mean you always agreed with him?

    And are you afraid of him? What do you think will his reaction be to you filing for divorce? Did you see him angry before- how does he behave when angry?

    anita

    #95097
    Nan
    Participant

    Hello again Anita,
    To make it less confusing, I am going to code them R-1 (college husband#1) and R-2 (current husband#2) Both have names starting with R.
    I have had two major blow-ups with R-2 in all these years married. In those 2 blow-ups, I was pushed back onto the bed, or pushed up against a wall and screamed at inches from my face. A few drinks also exacerbated the scene. His (R-2) M.O. is to always subtlety confront in a public setting (restaurant, bar, etc). That way, I have to be controlled and aware of my surroundings, as he also aware. If my voice raises, then his reminder that we are in public stops me from really ranting. Also, hard to leave then, since we came in one car and I am the one usually driving. These happen nearly monthly, but they don’t escalate and I just remain silent and it blows over.
    The 2 major blow ups in 35 years were later at home that same night after the dinner out, then it escalated. The last time (6 years ago) , I wanted to grab my keys and go, but R-2 grabbed them first and wouldn’t let me go. You have to go down 2 flights of stairs to get to the garage, and he blocked the doors to the garage and pushed me back. There is no punching or such, just pushing me back.
    Do you know the insane jealousy and anger, if he finds out the situation with R-1? R-1 met me at one of R-2’s parties at the time,and we fell for each other hard.
    History: I was casually dating R-2 and didn’t think he would even care, as we weren’t serious or even consummated anything.
    (Again, gotta love those 70’s and the Pill!) R-2 and R-1(was dating both) had a fist fight over me (drama!) in the Holiday Inn parking lot in 1973.I was there and found out it was instigated by my mother, who called R-2 that I was going out with R-1 and didn’t he want to know that? Mother again, deeply troubled and threatened for my deep affection for R-1. I was deeply in love with R-1and left with him after telling R-2 in the parking lot, that he has no claims on me, and I was going with R-1, and left in R-1’s car. . Of course, then my mother refused to let me see R-1 much and even locked the gates to her house, so he couldn’t come over. I had to meet him for a few hours at school and on weekends. That is why I married in 1974 at 19, after running away to his mother’s house on my bicycle. She blocked me at every turn. He was such a sweet guy, but once I got my freedom from the oppressive mother, I wanted to party hard, as I had not been allowed to at home. My R-1 worked 2 jobs for us and we disconnected emotionally as we had different hours. I went to school and a part time job during day hours, and R-1 worked days starting at 6 am and worked til nearly 11 at night. Also, we had twin beds, as that how the apartment was furnished. In hindsight, it also added to the disconnect, as we were like ships in the night. He was so tired, and I was the college girl! He was not into discos and partying, and was more serious than fidgety young me. After all that, I basically got bored and wanted freedom. Needless to say, I am very different now, and his calm, gentle and sweet demeanor enchant me now. He calls me daily. We do have a deep connection, and regret the misfires of before.

    R-2 found out about our communication one year ago, cried, collapsed and yelled, ” That F……r is still in my life, that SOB!” I denied any feelings and said it was just a mild flirt via Facebook and since then, he doesn’t know I still communicate or see him around every 4-6 months or so. R-2 became super sweet then and nothing like his usual nature for about 5 months, and then went back to his usual ways of whining about his life is lousy and his suffering in this life.

    Its too late, I don’t feel anything but numbness for R-2. I keep the “game face” on at all times. and don’t let him get under my skin, because I basically don’t care anymore. He knows nothing, as I don’t want to have anyone physically threatened or hunted down. I have not seen an aggressive side, but don’t want to tempt it. My feeling is that if R-2 has nothing to lose, he will rain anger and possible vengeance over his meal ticket/convenience person being taken from him at this late in the game. As you can seen, the entire scene before when he found out, was “What about Me?” again. He never once asked if I was happy, or even cared why I communicated with him. Its all about him. Always has been.
    Baby steps, baby steps…..

    #95107
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    What a story! A few things that come to my mind (all at once, I have to slow down my thinking):

    The dance of aggression: not different than in a herd of elks (have lots of those around where I live)- the subtle confrontations in a restaurant, similar to two males fighting for who is going to mate with the females. They lock horns and show their strength, subtly. They fight not till death, only to show the other who is stronger. The weaker one retreats, the stronger re-establishes dominance. The confrontation in public places are such shows, the way I see it: he, R-2 Established dominance again and again. Every time he goes on the “What about me?” rant, he is passive aggressively establishes his dominance. His dominance is… this is all about ME, I am the one that matters, not you, so … submit.

    I think that you are afraid of him after only two more serious shows of aggression on his part because he established his … strength, dominance in the relationship countless times in more subtle ways.

    All those years, then, he was dominant and you were dominated… regardless of you making more money or being more educated and having a higher responsibility job… regardless of these, he was the dominant one and you were the dominated one. Hence, you are afraid to confront, to assert, to initiate a separation.

    In a small percentage of situations like yours, indeed the spouse does injure and kill the one that is trying to separate. Most of the times, this does not happen. The show of dominance is most often, just that, a show. As convincing as it is… as long as it works to scare the other into submission…

    I think that you are afraid. At that scene in The Bridges of Madison County, I realized only a couple of days ago, that when she held the handle of the door of the truck following her version of R-1, she didn’t open the door because she was afraid. At that moment it was not guilt or anything else but fear. Now her …version of R-2 was not at all aggressive, like yours. She had other reasons to be afraid, simply the change, leaving the familiar.

    Back to you, there are probably different fears, leaving the familiar is one. His successful shows of aggression is another.

    Baby steps… Tell me about the baby step you are engaged in now…

    anita

    #95116
    Nan
    Participant

    Hello again, Anita…
    Baby steps included researching the actual divorce/separation laws in my state. Also, figuring out how I can get a loan off of my 401K, to get some 5-6K to live on, if R-2 wont leave the house in several weeks after I leave. I would still need to pay the mortgage and bills for one more month, as well as have somewhere to live and pay for it on my own. I will not go to live with R-1, immediately, in order to demonstrate that this isn’t the reason I am leaving. Also, wont be tangible proof of infidelity if that is pursued by R-2.
    I have copies of all current financials, and since we have separate accounts, I know his account #’s and his financials also.
    I have gathered a Rolodex of all his online credit cards and other accounts with all the passwords, etc, to give to him, so he wont be depending on me anymore. Right now, I pay the online CC and other bills of his, at his direction. He don’t like the computer, so I am the caretaker on that. Once I leave, then he will have his info and need to figure it out.

    There is nothing of real value in this house, and I wont be dickering about sofa’s or stuff, so I don’t care what he wants. If he refuses to leave the house, I will not keep paying on it. He can start paying or I can foreclose. I don’t give a damn, except that it will trash my credit and I know that. The only value I have is my little dog, so have researched for hotels/ extended stays that take pets.
    He will not pay the son’s tuition going forward when I leave, as he will need to pay rent and his living expenses and not pay the monthly tuition bill. I will negotiate through my lawyer, how to pay that if he refuses. I do know he has nearly 40K in his private checking account( such a saver, huh?), so he can start paying his own life and probably could pay son’s last year of college. If he refuses, I will cash out a small 401K of mine and pay it, with advice from lawyer as part of how to negotiate later on.
    I am not immediately concerned with immediate divorce, as it takes a year of “desertion” on the simplest terms. I own my car and have my own credit. There is nothing shared, except his joint checking account (I don’t touch, its his). I have separate checking, etc, so it will be a blip on the screen from that standpoint. Lawyer costs will be about 5K, so will need to save for that also.
    My only real “unknown” is the actual leaving, where to stay, and what happens if he just wont move on, such as not leaving the house, quitting his job, just not functioning and finding his place to stay? Remember we are older, and he aint no spring chicken anymore. I am concerned he may fall apart, and the burden will be on me, since I initiated it. My other concern is that the cell phone wont stop ringing, with begging, threats, tears, etc. I will have to set boundaries on what I can or cant take with this.
    R-1 states he is going to be my strength and my wall, when the sh… storms come. We may visit each other frequently,and share weekends together, but I wont jump from one man to the other immediately. We live several states apart. I am independent, and don’t need to be taken care of, except emotionally for now. I am thinking that I will be making my move in the spring or summer this year. My job is less intense and I can take absences longer, after the spring, if needed, as i have lots of vacation time to take. I remain as is, for now.
    R-1 talks of taking several weeks vacation with me, to the most romantic place of Bora Bora, Tahiti for my mental and emotional health when the time comes.( He aint rich, but states he would spend his last dime to show his love). He never pressures and gives no ultimatums, just wants me to be happy. He deeply understands my fears and feels a little compassion for his old friend R-2_), and wishes him no harm. He just wants to love me in ways I have never been used to. He is enchanting and so excessively in love with me, it blows me away. I have deep love for him and his gentle, sweet ways. Never had that before, always some macho “posturing” from the men I dated before marrying again.
    Once I burned my candle at both ends after my childhood divorce, I see that I had always thought his(R-1) kind ways were boring. We are now older by 4 decades, and this is my heart’s desire- to live in peace and be adored and cherished by R-1.
    I have had 2 years to figure if this was a fantasy, a lie or other delusion on my part or his. It is not, it is an enchanted and deeply spiritual connection between us, and we want to be happy, for the time we have left on this earth..

    Our wedding anniversary was yesterday, and he had sent me an anniversary card with 2/4/1974 in the corner, as he has always said he never forgot me ever. He says he hopes to have a new lifetime with me, for the years we have left. I also received flowers today – 40 deep pink roses, and 1 white one. I was home alone, so it was fine. He told me it was for the last 40 years, and the white one was for the best, most perfect year of his life being married to me. Corny, but intoxicating, coming from his mouth. I kept the white rose, and took the rest to the nursing home nearby, to have them give to the ladies in the rest home. I know he spent about $300 on this, what a silly but wonderful man. He isn’t angry that i sent it away, he knows and understands and knew I had to do something with them.. He just wanted me to have a concrete tangible expression of his deep desire to be with me. Sigh……what a story, huh?
    Nan, she ran, into his arms……………smile…..

    #95127
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    I am smiling too, right now. It is a beautiful love story, and the flowers, a beautiful gift of love. I can’t imagine this being anything but real, how can it be anything else… No doubt in my mind, from all your shares, I would open that pick up truck door (Bridges…) and I would run, run run to him.

    Yes, it is an incredibly beautiful love story, sigh.

    All the baby steps you mentioned, the steps, all reasonable. I would execute those on schedule, sooner than later, spring or summer, like you mentioned, not a moment longer than is necessary or wise.

    When you wrote the above post, I think, you were full of loving feelings, being loved. As time goes on you will feel again, i believe, the fear about making these changes… I hope you keep this love in your heart to give you the courage you need to follow through.

    It is not only about choosing love with R-1 as I see it. It is about un-choosing a life of fear, intimidation and manipulation with R-2.

    Post again… and again, you are a breath of fresh air, you and your story!!!

    anita

    #95262
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    How are you?

    anita

    #95269
    Nan
    Participant

    I am good so far. Valentines Day is coming up, and I have to accept that I am going to get a dinner out and some flowers gotten at the grocery store for 19.99 and handed to me. Probably a clumsy card with cartoons on it and kind of frivolous. Also be expecting to reciprocate with sex, as that is what R-2 thinks is loving. That is what is usual and I am OK with it after all these years. Just not disrupting things as not ready with my steps.

    It is tolerable and that is because there is a deeply romantic man who out there, who will be sending me a deeply romantic card that brings me to tears. I have a PO Box for work, so he will send it there along with a small gift that I wouldn’t need to explain away. I will sit in the car and weep tears for the past, the present and future. I want to start the car and leave everything behind, and go to R-1. I must be logical at this point and not trash my future and have a hard life in our old age together. How are you doing? I see you are very busy in many forums and you have logical wisdom and give hope to those floundering. Your validation to me has been very important, and made me feel stronger and more fearless for the future. Thank you, I have no close girlfriends that I trust to confess these things, so I am so grateful for your thoughts.

    #95275
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    Communicating with you and with others on this website is and has been very useful for me: it helps me learn about myself and about life. This is part of my healing journey started March 2011, almost five years ago. It is amazing as I find out new things all the time, every day now. Fascinating to me! So much to learn. It keeps me curious. At times, when distressed and discouraged, it is the curiosity that keeps me going.

    In your post above you describe the coming Valentine Day with R-s as “tolerable”- I know tolerable. In hindsight, I would throw away ‘tolerable” with the speed of light as there has been so much compromise of me, so much humiliation and debasement of my person in tolerating the… tolerable. In hindsight, that is.

    You are welcome and will be glad to read more and more as you go along toward spring and summer… I was thinking of you on my walk yesterday as spring here, The Cascades, WA, already started and plants are budding… and I thought to myself”: spring is here and I thought of you and what will happen in Spring for you.

    Till your next post (Welcomed by me, anytime)-

    anita

    #95303
    Nan
    Participant

    Dear Anita,
    Well, until something big or amazing happens, I will post then. Will probably have to start a new post title, as it will be buried in the others if it remains weeks or months to a post.

    What shall we call it, so you will know it is me right away? I am afraid others might take the “Nan” name, so not sure if you would remember me until I mentioned the Bridges of MC and Francesca’s grip on the truck handle. Give me a suggestion if you like-
    Francesca’s Fantasy, Never Too Late, Gone like the Wind?
    I live in GA so winter is still hanging on here and every day is cold or warmer, as it is a crazy climate year (La NIna or El Nino, I have forgotten which)..
    Hopefully, we wont go senile (a la “Notebook”) before R-1 and my enchanted life and love unfolds…………Need to tell Nicholas Sparks to write something based on my life experiences……….it could be a best seller and give hope to us, no matter what our age! Not just these younger ones breaking engagements or being conveniently single when real love comes calling. Life can be complicated as we so well know…….
    Here is my original poem that I had written and you are the only one to see it.
    NAN, SHE RAN…..
    Nan, she ran, in the blink of an eye,
    Nan, she ran, before the ink was dry,
    Nan, she ran, she was sinking,
    Nan, she ran, without thinking.
    Nan, she ran, into freedom, the party life and flair,
    Nan, she ran, and didn’t care.
    Nan, she ran, and settled to be another one’s wife,
    Nan, she ran, and gave up the party life.
    The years went by, a decade at a time,
    She never once thought of him, it was a crime.
    40 years later, she heard a song not heard in dozens of years,
    the song she heard brought her to tears.
    The lyrics burned the scar in heart,
    The lyrics made her fall apart.

    “….After all the loves in my life,
    …..after all the loves in my life,’
    You’ll still be the one……………..” (Richard Harris- MacArthur Park)

    Nan, she cried, sad tears over that song,
    What kind of a man would carry a love so far and so long?
    Nan, she wished she had known that man in her life,
    Nan, she wished she had been his wife.
    Nan, she prayed for her angels to make it right,
    Nan, she prayed for days and into the night.
    The voice, the love came through for her,
    As the memories and heartaches buried deep,
    Obsessed her thoughts and ruined her sleep.

    Nan, she ran, into his remembered arms,
    Nan, she ran, into his remembered charms.
    Nan, she ran, back into his life,
    Nan, she ran, to one day be his wife……
    …….again.

    THE END…..

    #95362
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Nan:

    Beautiful, absolutely beautiful! She ran, to one day be his wife again… Nan, she ran, the repeating line: Nan, she ran. I can almost hear the lyrics, it could really be a beautiful song, not only a poem. Well done, says I! Well done!!!

    The first eight lines: Nan, she ran…
    The ninth line: “The years went by, a decade at a time..” She no longer runs. For 18 lines she doesn’t run. Then in the last four lines of the poem, she runs again.

    I think there is passion in that running, then it dies, and then that passion awakens again and you run again.

    As to future threads: you can resurrect this thread any time or else start another. No way am I going to forget Nan and if someone takes your user name, I will know it is not you and I will know when it is you.

    You wrote: “Give me a suggestion if you like-
    Francesca’s Fantasy, Never Too Late, Gone like the Wind?” I will not need this reminder, but I have a comment on “Francesca’s Fantasy”- like I wrote to you a few posts before, I realized only lately, because of our correspondence that it was fear that kept her in the truck, so now looking back at the movie, I would say it was more about Francesca’s Fear than fantasy.

    Post anytime, no need to wait too long… this is not going to be easy, you know, so if it helps, post and … run, run…

    anita

    #95419
    Katie
    Participant

    Wow, I have goosebumps after reading this thread. Nan, what a challenging time you are going through right now but cling to that hope for the future…that is absolutely amazing that after all these years you have a chance of real love and a life together with your first husband!!! Thank you so much for sharing your story. I think that takes a lot of courage. At 31 years old, I have had a similar re-connection with a first love but I think I was still too immature to appreciate how special it was so I have lost it yet again. Perhaps that’s what these 40 years have given you…the awareness of how special and rare your connection with R-1 is…and with that knowing you won’t lose it again. It’s so scary to have the realization that time is ticking and when it’s gone, it’s gone. This life is YOURS. It’s clear to me that you’ve done so much for the people you love, and have been successful even though you had close people in your life scheming and working against you. I wish so much for you to be happy in any way you choose and I hope to read an update in another few months or even sooner. Hugs, strength, and patience to you. 🙂

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