Dear Michelle:

Welcome back to your thread. My condolences for your loss.

It is much slower here on the forums than when you last posted, but I hope that other members who replied to you earlier will notice that you posted and return to your thread as well.

A short and limited summary of the relationship: I think that you are now 33 and he is 36. You met online and when you saw his photo, before meeting him, you thought to yourself: “that’s my one“! When you met him in-person, you “felt safe and at home“. Right after the first date: “I felt like I was high after. Where I felt so calm and incredibly excited at the same time“, and the relationship started in September 2019.

In January 2020, four months into the relationship, the topic of marriage came up and he made the following statements: “he doesn’t see (marriage) for himself,”, that “(Marriage) just breeds contempt”, that “he doesn’t see (the relationship) long-term”, that “he doesn’t likely see himself with anyone long-term and marriage has always just been a fantasy“, that the two of you were too different, that you are “not.. his ideal” and that the two of you “should find people that are more suited to us as individuals”.

The two of you spent a lot of time together because of Covid, and in August 2020: “every time I thought we were getting to a different place and that his feelings might be changing, he would tell me he still felt the same and that he didn’t see a future and we couldn’t be together… He keeps saying that he loves me, in a way, but I am not his one and only“.

In February 2021, a year and five months into the relationship, you brought up to him the idea of living together and he said that he would think about it. You excitedly wrote at the time: “MAJORRR progress. I feel, from him telling me he’d never be with me and didn’t see a future…  It just feels like one giant leap for womankind, everywhere, who deal with men and their commitment issues and have some patience“!

But by March 2021, he told you that he doesn’t want to move in with you. You wrote March 31, 2021: “as soon as we make progress, things seem to retreat back to square one… he again told me that he doesn’t see me as a life partner, and he thought the relationship would eventually end… he wants to be honest that he doesn’t really see it happening”.

Fast forward to your most recent post, more than two years into the relationship, you discovered that you were pregnant by him and you “felt like the world became doused in technicolor. Everything was vibrant and hopeful and purposeful“, but soon after, you miscarried. You believe that the pregnancy and the loss brought the two of you closer together “like soldiers who have bonded through war“. You added: “He is now discussing moving in with me to try living together and has said he is not completely against trying (having a child) in the future… He still isn’t willing to write anything in stone but has given me a timeline for when I should expect this move and it isn’t years out“.

At one point in your thread, you wrote about the relationship: “The more I look back on our story, the more fated it seems… I just feel like when I met him, he was there all along, so it’s hard to picture a time where I won’t carry him in my heart…He is so woven in the fabric of my psyche, that it’s just too hard to unravel him”-

You felt safe and at home the moment you saw his photo on his online dating profile, you felt that he was your one before you ever met him in-person. When you met him, you felt like “he was there all along“: like he was there from the time you were born, more than 30 years before you met him, maybe even earlier.

There is a song titled All Along, some of the lyrics, available on line, are: “Time just drifts away- And I look back on the years- With memories of happiness and bitter tears- Through it all there is a common thread- Which cannot be ignored- You were there making me to be your servant Lord- Al along your hand has been guiding me- Shaping my life to be a beautiful song- All along you’ve led me through- Things that you knew would make me strong- Your love has been there all along”.

anita

Dear Michelle:

Once again, inspired by TeaK’s recent post, I spent hours reading all your posts (hardly any of mine) since you first posted in January 2020, almost two years ago. First, I want to apologize to you: all along, you were intelligent, honest and kind to others and to me. But at times, including my post two days ago, I felt and expressed impatience and annoyance at you and at your story. I regret it and feel embarrassed. After all, it was always my choice to read your posts, and when I felt impatient and annoyed, I should have taken a break, instead of replying to you under the influence of impatience and annoyance, so to speak. It was my mistake, and I am sorry. I will correct this behavior now and in the future.

As I type this, I do not feel any impatience or annoyance, so I am okay to proceed. I will not be analyzing you in this post (and not until and if you request such input). Instead, I will do my best to try to understand who he is, the man your threads are about. Maybe, just maybe, this effort will be somewhat helpful to you. Maybe I will make up just a bit for my past expressed impatience and annoyance.

As I begin, and all the way through, I will be typing as I think, including quotes, letting my thoughts develop and see what I get at the end of this post, which I expect to be very long.

“His OCD seems to surround cleanliness, order and symmetry. When he first came over to my house he stayed over and remarked that my kettle had disgusting limescale buildup and how could I be so slovenly. He found many other disgusting things wrong with my housekeeping skills… When we go on day trips, he packs the trunk with a very specific order, and he will not tolerate food in his car. Mostly his life is orderly and well kept, so that he is able to feel in control”, “I asked if he had any issue with our relationship and he brought up petty things. I don’t finish my coffee or my plate of food often… He says we’re too different.. (that) I use plastic bags..  our sleep schedules are too different…

“He seems to have a big need for control in his own way and wants his relationships to be perfect in many ways. He definitely does have an ideal in mind and I was not likely to change it or become it…He thinks there is someone more compatible out there for him… he did live with a friend prior to meeting me and it went very sour very fast. He describes the friend as having been a complete slob… He does have OCD and I do wonder if he has a form of ROCD… The way he cares about insignificant things. The last time he came over he made a list of things he needs to bring me for my home, just to make my life easier. A mailbox because mine broke, some water filters, and he wants to fix a lamp I have in the living room, but don’t intend to keep. I know this is typical male behaviour, but he just seems to keep trying. He also told me that I have gotten better looking since we’ve met”-

– I don’t know how it didn’t occur to me before, but I don’t think that he suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD). I think that he suffers from obsessive compulsive personality disorder (OCPD): “a pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts” (the American Diagnostical and Statistical manual- 5th edition).

Wikipedia: “OCPD is often confused with obsessive-compulsive-disorder (OCD). Despite the similar names, they are two distinct disorders. Some OCPD individuals do have OCD“.

OCD and OCPD are two different diagnoses with a huge difference: people who suffer from OCD are ego-dystonic, meaning, they perceive their compulsive behaviors as unwanted and involuntary, something in conflict with who they are, but people who fit the OCPD diagnosis are ego-syntonic, meaning they perceive their compulsive behaviors as wanted and voluntary, something that (however distressing), is in harmony with who they are.

In yet other words, OCD people believe that they have a problem, but OCPD people (like people who suffer from other personality disorders) don’t believe that they have a problem, at least not in regard to their compulsive behaviors and with the beliefs, thoughts and feelings that are associated with their compulsive behaviors. These compulsive behaviors etc., cause the sufferers distress, but because of their significant to severe lack of insight (a hallmark of personality disorders), they don’t see their compulsive behaviors and associated beliefs, thoughts and feelings- as their problem.

This is why people who suffer from personality disorders are not likely to seek help for the symptoms of their personality disorder. When a person with a personality disorder seeks help, it is usually for depression, and when they attend psychotherapy for depression, they resist addressing what they believe is not their problem.

psychologized. org: “Ego-syntonic disorders are notoriously difficult to treat because the disordered thinking is in harmony with the ego state so the person cannot see the need for change and indeed might be hostile to it“.

I ended the collection of quotes from your threads, above, with this sentence: “He also told me that I have gotten better looking since we’ve met” (December 2020)-

– It occurred to me, taking in consideration the information about OCPD, that it’s likely that many times, he’s been thinking unflattering things about your looks, being critical, imperfections looming big in his mind, just as he’s been thinking unflattering things about your housekeeping: oh, this is dirty, that is dusty, how disgusting! And he is critical about your ways in regard to drinking coffee, eating, using plastic bags, etc. I am guessing his critical thoughts and feelings of disgust are more frequent than the times he shared those with you, that he keeps these thoughts and feelings to himself, most of the time.

So, when he told you that you got better looking since he met you, I think that he was glad to share with you that he used to be more critical of your looks, and that at that moment, on that day, he was not so critical of your looks, or maybe not critical at all… in that moment.

Problem is that he sees his criticisms not as his problem, but as your problem, and having all these problems, all these imperfections, make you… not his ideal. He told you back in January 2020 or earlier: “things would likely build up in time, because neither of us would want to rock the boat and bring up issues… he thinks our differences with small things would eventually add up and we’d drive each other crazy“- I think that his criticisms of you (as his criticisms of previous girlfriends) build up in time, driving him crazy, but not wanting to rock the boat by bringing up his criticisms/ issues to you- he keeps them to himself most of the time.

You wrote on March 31 this year: “I am having a very hard time right now, as soon as we make progress, things seem to retreat back to square one… So, he again told me that he doesn’t see me as a life partner, and he thought the relationship would eventually end… He says he’s not looking for other women though and doesn’t expect to find someone else”- I think that his OCPD-criticisms of you built up and drove him crazy once again. Never having met a woman he was not critical of (his ideal fantasy w0man), he figures he probably never will.

I think that you were correct when you wrote on the same day: “he’s waiting for a feeling that will never come, a complete cease of anxiety and doubt”- I think that he experiences a lot of anxiety, but he doesn’t understand (lacking insight) that the problem is in him, not in you. He doesn’t understand that the problem is his focus and distress over perceived imperfection in your looks and behaviors (and regarding his own), that the problem is not the imperfections he is focusing on, but his very focus and distressing/ unhealthy thoughts, feelings and behaviors in regard to perceived imperfections.

“He says he thinks I will find someone better than him”- when a person is so critical of others, he/ she is also very critical of himself. Overly criticizing others and overly criticizing self are two sides of the same coin.

“I agree the same features of this relationship would rear their ugly head”- yes, personality disorders last and last, they don’t spontaneously dissolve or disappear.

“He satisfies everything else, checks all other boxes”(April 1)- problem is that in his OCPD mind, I think, is that he carries a mental checklist with him (there might be a paper/ computer checklist as well), checking where you are lacking, focusing on the checks, adding to them…  until all those checks drive him crazy.

On the same day: “This guy says he’s disinterested in a future and yet his actions completely contradict it, so it’s hard to come to terms with what he says”- I think that he is able to be as affectionate and attentive to you as he has been as long as he knows that he will be going home soon enough, away from you and away from that check list. I don’t think that he has been faking his affection, I think that he can feel it and express it knowing it is limited to time and place.

He is 37 years old and has never lived with a woman.

“I also don’t believe that he’s operating from a state of awareness about how he feels… He doesn’t seem to connect the emotional dots so to speak. He will mention a negative event in his life and immediately following that event, feel sad, but be unsure of as to why” (April 3)- lack of insight, lack of emotional understanding.

“He is now discussing moving in with me to try living together… He has discussed the reasons why he was hesitant to move in before, and I told him that we can come up with solutions for them. Most of it surround his OCD” (December 13, 2021)-

– I think that it is what I believe to be his OCPD (not his OCD, even if he suffered from OCD, which is a possibility, I suppose) that will make living with you very unlikely, in my unprofessional opinion.

I will end with quotes in regard to (1) typical OCPD characteristics, adding that not all OCPD individuals are the same, just as individuals in any diagnostic group of mental disorders are not identical, and (2) something about treatment.

Psychology today. com: “The OCPD type of person is very systematic. They carefully plan everything down to the smallest detail. They often get lost in the details and forget their overall purpose… (they) are very rule-bound and are drawn to routine… are rigid in their experiences and character. Individuals with OCPD also are antagonistic… (they) experience distress or have difficulty completing tasks because of their need to prepare, for example cleaning or organizing before starting the task… (they) will show impairment in functioning, for example being late or missing a deadline because of time spent prepping… These individuals have a proclivity for hoarding their belongings even when no sentimental value is attached. They are penny-pinchers and could be described as miserly”.

healthy place. com/ obsessive compulsive personality disorder treatment: “Treatment for obsessive-compulsive personality disorder focuses on helping the client become aware of his or her thought patterns and how they influence emotions and behaviors. Since most people with OCPD do not have a strong awareness of their emotions, developing this awareness is the first step…

“Psychodynamic therapy – this therapeutic technique is insight-oriented. The therapist helps the person with OCPD identify his perceptions of certain situations… The goal is to help the client develop a stronger sense of self-awareness. By integrating talk therapy into the sessions, the therapist can demonstrate to the client to accept that everyone, including him, makes mistakes and that this makes him human… Cognitive Behavioral Therapy- …Both of these psychotherapy methods seek to give the client insight and tools to reduce rigid expectations and enjoy a higher quality of life. People with OCPD may also benefit from learning obsessive-compulsive personality disorder self-help skills, such as relaxation and meditation. This involves using specific breathing and relaxation techniques to reduce the intense sense of urgency and stress common in those with OCPD…

“People with OCPD frequently struggle with anxiety and depression that interferes with everyday life. In these cases, antianxiety drugs or antidepressant medications can offer relief and allow the client to become more fully engaged in therapy…

“Left untreated, people with OCPD may develop anxiety and depression due to social isolation and anger management issues. Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder treatment can help those suffering from the condition, but success requires a commitment to recovery and sticking to the therapist’s instructions”.

anita

Dear Michelle,

ON paper the relationship probably appears to be unworkable, and he may appear to be more damaged, but I do want to stress as Anita, pointed out that sometimes the responses I feel I’ve gotten have come from a place of potential bias or impatience. I’m sure that some of the things I point out about my relationship with this man remind anyone who is reading about a relationship they have had.

That’s true, I am speaking from a personal experience in an unequal relationship, in which there was an unhealthy mother-child dynamic, instead of two adults, so this affects my judgment for sure. My attraction for this person came from a place of hurt, and I suffered in the relationship. Luckily it didn’t last long.

But for you, it doesn’t sound like you are suffering, at least not any more. It seems you are learning to accept him as he is, while setting some boundaries to protect yourself:

Anytime he crosses a line, where he gets “disappointed” in me I will remind him that he did not appropriately communicate what his needs were, and that he cannot expect me to rise to a concealed expectation. I told him I am not perfect, and I will always try to work with him, and respect his differences, but he must also respect mine and be willing to acknowledge my efforts for things I do.

So you are not allowing to be unfairly criticized or condemned by him. That’s good. And you say you don’t feel abused, which is also good (I can see that he is trying little by little, and there is no abuse in our relationship).

People with OCPD can be intolerant and harsh and can use every excuse in the book to separate from you and try to remain independent, but I still love him just the same.

Is he intolerant and harsh too? Or he is learning to be more tolerant and less harsh, as you are setting boundaries around some of his harsh behavior?

He has already tried sleeping in my bed more often to adjust. Baby steps. I think him having his own room to retire to and have his own space will help a lot, as well as me working three nights a week where he can unwind on his own.

Yes, him having his own room sounds like a very good idea. Is that possible in your current apartment, or you would need to rent a bigger apartment, to have a spare room for him?

yes I would’ve raised the child on my own had he not wanted to be a part of that.

Good, it means you feel ready and capable of raising a child on your own. That’s quite remarkable (again, this is me speaking from my own bias, since I myself would have felt very inadequate if I had to raise a child alone).

I can see now that he greatly wanted to be a part of it and would want it in the future.

That’s nice too, at least he’s not against it a priori.

I agree in trying to better oneself and seek help and grow to our ultimate potential, but at the same time, we must accept who are in this moment, and we must accept others as they are in this moment (as long as they do not inflict harm on us or others).

Yes, it’s important that you don’t feel emotionally abused and suffering. Usually, another precondition for a successful relationship is that we should accept the person as they are, without trying to change them, without even hoping that they should change. It seems to me you are accepting him as he is at the moment, but still hoping he would change – with your help – slowly, gradually, with lots of compassion and understanding on your part (We need to be compassionate as much as we are critical. At the moment compassion is working for my relationship.)

My premise and experience so far was that trying to change someone who is emotionally unavailable and wounded doesn’t really work… but for the two of you, it might work, if both of you have enough patience and compassion with each other. In any case, you are determined to keep going, to give it a try, and I wish you all the best. I wish that you can be truly happy and content in the relationship.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 11 months ago by Tee.