July 31, 2021 at 2:24 pm #383845
I agree, it is really important to figure out what is hiding behind emotions like anger. Anger is a strong overwhelming emotion, it blurry the source of the issue, and the access to the inner wound needing to be soothed. No wonder you found the idea of going to the root helpful. Understanding how emotions work is very important to find a way to appease ourselves.
Honestly, all the movie is really well done and helpful. It goes through a lot of good points. The thing that has touched my heart was to see so much compassion. One of my fear that makes me avoidant of people is the lack of compassion and understanding of differences that I may receive. I had bad experiences with people in positions of authority when I was young. Teachers, doctors… And not because I was problematic, but their reactions towards my difficulties were harsher and judgemental than compassionate. It hurt my trust in people. So, witnessing caring, compassionate, and helpful people is very heartwarming for me. It shows other experiences, and I really appreciate it.
Ocean sounds are really nice for journaling indeed, I also like coffee shops/tea rooms sounds, rain sounds, fireplaces, and all these atmospheric videos. Meditations can be a hit or a miss for me, it’s very aleatory, depending on the meditation and my mood. There’s a lot of timing and compatibility factors I guess. But it is helpful sometimes so I keep trying them out and exploring. I searched the reiki asmr video. It was hard to stay serious at first, but the gestures are interesting, I can see how it can give a feeling of relief. Or some kind of an experience. It felt like tickles for me. It was a bit awkward, but interesting anyway.
I’ve got a question. What is the meaning/idea behind the “I surrender” mantra?
I equally think self-compassion is a way to become stronger and build a better armor/resilience. I’m slowly getting there. I am a bit shy in these practices still. I am going slowly. A part of me feels like a wild animal who is still wary and cautious. There’s a bit of an unknown/doubtful feeling about receiving love and compassion. Like suddenly it could be taken back, or used against me as if it could be a way to let my guard down before attacking me. Which makes sense, as my parents switched between awkward affection and abuse. Sometimes without a warning. And I’m coming back from a long time of being too harsh with myself to cope/prepare for the harshness of others, so it makes sense the progress will come in small steps. I need to experience healthy affection for a longer time before I am able to really believe it and trust it.
I think getting used to oxytocin again will be part of this process. I never thought of self-massaging before, it seems like a good idea to get used to touching without requiring the intervention of someone else. Thank you for the idea. I am feeling shy and vulnerable when touching myself in a comforting way. I know that intimacy with other people, even animals sometimes, can be a bit overwhelming for me. I can do it and appreciate it, but there’s a lot of mixed feelings, insecurities, and worries that can bleed into it. I’ll have to pay attention to that more. At least deep conversation is a form of intimacy I am able to have, and used to have, it’s my comfort zone.
When it comes to my needs from other people… I guess I would start with stability and safety (the basics that should be achieved through mutual respect and communication), and connection, a sense of belonging or acceptance I guess. I have that with some internet friends, or some friends from college I’m keeping in touch with, but I’d like to have it back into my life physically and in real-time. I can have that with my siblings, when we’re not too preoccupied. I hope someday I will be having that in a better environment. For now, I am not very open to meeting new people where I live. I do not like this place, and I do not want more connections in a place I do not want to be part of. At some point, I’d like to start over. It isn’t going to happen before a few years at least, but I want to see how I would be when I won’t be facing as much external negativity.
I think the thanks in advance is a good trick, I’ll be sure to keep it in mind while facing problems. It seems like a smart strategy. Mindfulness too, I am trying to get it into my habits.
I am unsure how you could help further, you are already doing a lot for me, and I am grateful for what you have done already.
LinarraJuly 31, 2021 at 7:21 pm #383855Sarah Jeanne BrowneModerator
I should have mentioned reiki (and anything ASMR) is rather awkward. Try this one instead, it’s more soothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX5Ztq1qkY&t=1890s
I too have had struggles gaining compassion from people, including authority figures so I understand. I feel compassion for you though! And I’m sure the right people will feel the same. 🙂 You deserve compassion. Kristin Neff can further help you develop self-compassion. I have this workbook of hers. https://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Self-Compassion-Workbook-Yourself-Strength/dp/1462526780/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=kristin+neff+workbook&qid=1627783789&sr=8-3
Self- Massage tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=s2c4L6ovffg
Inner child meditation (If I didn’t send already): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2OfD00e6Tk
I agree, meditation is a hit or miss for me too. Sometimes, I get real into it and other times I can’t focus. I think the one minute mindulness trick is a good start for just meditating in SOME way each day. That way you can incorporate it even when you don’t feel like it most of the time. Ground yourself with your senses- smell, taste, touch, sight and sound. Here’s the Wheel of Awareness meditation by Dan Siegel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODlFhOKahmk
This is an article I wrote on the concept of surrendering: https://tinybuddha.com/blog/how-i-saved-myself-by-surrendering-when-everything-fell-apart/
In sum, that I mean by surrendering is to let go of control and embrace the unknown. For me, it’s spiritual. For anyone though it is just releasing need to control the outcome and allowing what it to come. Instead of giving up, surrender instead.
I have a Forbes article on it as well here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2020/06/24/how-to-let-go-of-fear-worry-and-indecision/?sh=76a26b4f7834
As for being stuck, it’s hard. I get it. Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed is a book where she gives advice to people pulling the best ones from her advice column. There’s a chapter on her explaining how she once tried to help young abuse victims get out of their abusive homes. The system was broken though and there was more money for runaways. She wanted to give them hope but realistic hope. She told them to hold onto whatever good they could and know that one day they could make their own life, even if they were stuck for now. It was sobering advice because she knew she couldn’t help all of them.
Here are some short excerpts: https://www.bustle.com/p/the-15-best-dear-sugar-columns-to-read-when-you-need-a-dose-of-compassion-inspiration-8849833
Here is her column in general: https://therumpus.net/author/sugar/
I’ve given you a lot to look over. Don’t feel like you have to at all or even have to do it right away.
Lastly, I hope you know I am happy to talk to you through all this as long as you need. While we don’t know each other, you are not alone.
SarahAugust 5, 2021 at 2:15 pm #384198
In my 6 years of daily communication with thousands of members, discussing childhoods and mothers with hundreds, I came across one mother who seemed similar to mine, and then came you, with a mother that seems identical to mine: every behavior that you described in regard to your mother is also true regarding mine. This is an extraordinary resemblance, which is the reason I am posting to you today, five days following your last post on this thread.
I am posting today so to process my own experience a bit further, with the thought that maybe this post will be of some positive value to you. I want to note that I noticed your strong care-taking inclination, and I really don’t want you to take care of me here, in the context of this post (in such ways as responding to each and every thing I share, expressing empathy for me, cheerleading me, etc.), so please don’t. Also, you are welcome to ignore this post, to stop reading it at any time if the content distresses you, if it bores you, and/ or for whatever other reason. I am okay if you respond to any part of it, and I am okay if you don’t respond to it all. In the post I will quote you and then, I will share my thoughts:
On July 29, you wrote: “Unfortunately.. My mother has been acting up, verbally abusing me actively again. She went as far as actually hitting me yesterday. Nothing too worrying, I was able to protect myself well enough and she stopped… My siblings aren’t coping very well, I’m worried about them. I’m doing well enough all things considered but I’m looking forward to the moment she’ll move on from her crisis and stop jumping me every time our path cross“-
-Your mother verbally abused you and hit you Wednesday July 28, and you posted the above the day after, Thursday July 29, while she was still in the mood of jumping you every time your paths crossed. Yet, notice how calm you sound, so well adjusted to her abusive, violent behavior, more adjusted than your siblings who “aren’t coping very well”. And notice: you were looking forward not to the moment that your mother will no longer be living with you and your siblings- but for the moment that she will stop jumping you every time your paths cross within the household, while living with you.
It occurred to me as I read this quote a week ago that your best coping is within the household, living with your mother- this is where your excellence is. By excellence I mean your excellent adjustment to abuse/ coping with abuse, and living with a sense of meaning and power. It seems to me that the abuse itself provides you meaning and gives you a sense of power: you are the strongest in the context of your abusive household. It is outside the household where you are not coping well, where you feel no meaning and no power.
On July 30, you shared more about the excellence I referred to above, it almost feels as if you are comfortable living with your mother, not motivated and not in a rush to live without your mother: “I am used to her aggressions and I am enough in control of my emotions.. I don’t feel much like seeking therapy. I do not necessarily feel in a hurry… I don’t feel in a rush, personally… I am having normal reactions (being tired and having less energy) to abnormal situations (being abused). I’m not retraumatized, I am more jaded“.
Evidence of your excellence as well are your very well-structured, grammatically correct, thoughtful, attentive, logical, smoothly-written posts from the very first to the last, evident of calm, organized thinking done while living with an abusive mother, never knowing when she will attack you or your siblings next. (I read from anxious members who tend to write run-on sentences in one very long paragraph, with no attention to grammar, lots of misspelled words, hard to follow logic, etc.).
You and I share the following reactions to our very similar mothers, some of which are no longer true to me, partly or wholly: (1) we both zoned out (“I chose to escape and not suffer.. by zoning out“), (2) we both developed wonderful inner worlds (“My inner world has been everything during most of my life, I relied on it a lot. I had the conversations I couldn’t have outside… I found joy inside my own head“), (3) we both suffered difficulties processing information (“I have a hard time listening and gathering information.. or be able to process/ react accordingly. It makes me slow, and more anxious“), (4) we were both depressed and seemed lazy (“For my seemingly depressive phases.. I feel like sleeping/ resting despite having just woken up in the morning… My low energy/ motivation seems like laziness“) (5) We both preferred to be alone and were alone as much of the time (“Most of the time I’m alone and I like that“), (6) When motivated, we were both overly focused on one activity, feeling a great frustration with the idea of stopping the activity and focusing on something else (“when I’m able to be on a motivated/ productive phase, I feel frustrated to stop and focus on something else. I can be very obsessive when I am in a good work dynamic“), (7) We both found joy in creative writing (“What saved me during my darkest times.. is creativity. I love writing… It makes me happy, stimulated, and my love for it always gave my life meaning when nothing else could“), (8) We are both inclined to analyze people’s behaviors (“From quite early in my youth, I valued analyses.. I was very intrigued and craved an understanding of people“), (9) We both became unlike her, not loud, not confident, but quiet (“She’s so loud, so confident. I’m so quiet“) (10) We both believed that we do not have the right to enforce physical boundaries (saying No to being touched, etc.) because we don’t want to hurt the feelings of the people who.. seem to need to touch us; our empathy being with those who want to use us as objects for their pleasure (“I have difficulties making my boundaries be respected without feeling like I am a bad person who’s hurting friends who are just craving intimacy. I don’t like being used as an object.. too many people.. who feel lonely seemed to use me as an object.. one of my hurtful beliefs is I feel like my own boundaries could possibly hurt someone else.. my empathy (is) for others“).
My last note in this post is in regard to what makes our mothers so unique: it is in their desire to possess us completely, in each and every way. Their parenting mission is to own, or possess our thoughts, our feelings, our perceptions, our understandings, our words, our actions, our friends, our associations with others, out minds, hearts and bodies… our everything.
You wrote: “Her touches don’t have sexual intents, she just doesn’t want to understand I don’t want her anywhere my ass, pubis or any sexual organs for that matter, playfully or not, affectionately or not“- if I am to project my mother into yours, I would say: her touching is not about sex, it is about her desire to possess you in every way possible.
This is the end of this post. If you would like to talk to me about any of these things, if you want to ask me questions, I am here. Otherwise, I wish you well.
August 6, 2021 at 4:13 am #384210
- This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by anita.
I read your articles on the concept of surrendering. It is clearer now, they are well written and helpful. I can see how letting go and accepting what will become isn’t equal to giving up, and is a more relaxed approach than clinging tight and focusing ourselves on the uncertainty. It will be helpful, as I think I have many fears and uncertainties to face. I think I somehow practiced something similar once, but it was with mixed feelings. I am glad to see a positive outlook on this.
You did give me a lot to explore, thank you for sharing your resources and your experience. I’m am trying to balance this exploration and self-care with the new work routine I’m trying to gain back now I am out of my last depressive phase. I will go at my pace, but I’ll keep going.
I hope you are doing well,
LinarraAugust 6, 2021 at 5:00 am #384212
I am glad to hear from you again. I find it interesting how similar our mothers are. It is very rare to find someone with such a familiar experience.
“By excellence I mean your excellent adjustment to abuse/ coping with abuse, and living with a sense of meaning and power. It seems to me that the abuse itself provides you meaning and gives you a sense of power: you are the strongest in the context of your abusive household. It is outside the household where you are not coping well, where you feel no meaning and no power. “
I am indeed very well adjusted to this lifestyle now. I wasn’t always as calm and adjusted, but gathering helpful knowledge and finding a reason to bear with those circumstances, I ended up adjusting well. Mostly, my resilience relies on my choice of aiming at an art career. My current living condition is the optimal situation I can get to meet the requirement of low living cost, a lot of time to dedicate to my passion, and enough difficulty to keep myself stimulated/inspired.
When you know what you are facing and why you doing it, it is easier to deal with it than when you have no idea what you are facing and what for (which would be my situation if I were living anywhere else). I stay in this household as a strategic choice. Hopefully, it won’t be the end of it. Hopefully, I will be able to reach a point where I can take my leave too, and learn to feel strong enough in the outside world. I got myself mentally ready in the case it never happens though, and that makes me able to deal with my present situation.
‘’Evidence of your excellence as well are your very well-structured, grammatically correct, thoughtful, attentive, logical, smoothly-written posts from the very first to the last, evident of calm, organized thinking done while living with an abusive mother, never knowing when she will attack you or your siblings next.’’
I am at my best with forum threads because they allow me to not take time to write and rewrite, correct myself and try to make sense. I like doing that, it makes a bit of clarity out of my own chaos. It is soothing.
That being said, the fact I am (or appear?) very well structured for someone who’s been going through abuse and trauma is one of the reasons why I avoid therapy. I am uncomfortable with the possibility to have my difficulties invalidated just because I found a way to adapt to my circumstances a little too well. I am grateful for my adaptability to my current environment, but I am afraid it causes the unadaptability to the outside world.
My ability to sound collected makes my issues even more invisible to people. But they are still there. I feel like a fraud in both my functionality and non-functionality. When my issues come in the way, it feels silly and unreal. How can I be both so calm and so anxious? How am I able to take abuse so well and yet unable to face casual interactions with outsiders? How can I be so functional in a messy environment, and feeling like a mess in situations that seem manageable for other people?
My “excellence” in my messed-up environment feels both right and wrong. It is a two-edged sword. For my household it is working just well, in other circumstances it works against me.
“it is in their desire to possess us completely, in each and every way. Their parenting mission is to own, or possess our thoughts, our feelings, our perceptions, our understandings, our words, our actions, our friends, our associations with others, out minds, hearts and bodies… our everything. “
I do agree with your thoughts about our mothers. It is very objectifying. Her children are considered as an extension of her. She owns our victory and failures, she owns our suffering, everything we would try to build for ourselves was at risk to be possessed or broken by her. She used us to make her life worthwhile.
The things I ended up finding meaning into were safe. It wasn’t like she could reach or understand my feelings about creativity, psychology, or philosophical explorations. It was too deep for her who mostly cared about appearances and surface, so it was protected.
I think the things that weren’t protected (relationships, mingling with the outside world) were the things I explored less. I had a vulnerability and less disposition to explore those already, so I wouldn’t go out of my way to do it when, instead of support, I had extra risks with her around. Anyway, I wasn’t able to find enough meaning in the outside world to take the risks alone. Even now, as I might see more potential of meaning in the outside world than I used to see, I am still tied to my safer path. The appeal doesn’t match the difficulty and risks.
I do not know how to feel about all of that now. Part of me used to wish I was different, that I was more motivated to explore the outside world. And another part was worried the first part’s wish was due to social pressure. The need to find belonging somewhere is a bit desperate and chaotic, I am not comfortable with… this.
Yet I do not want to ignore the issue entirely, or I might end up very incapacitated in the future.
I really don’t know how much I am willing to invest and risk in the outside world. In my relationships with people. Am I willing to let other humans get close to me? Is it worth it? Even if my mother was gone, I am too guarded and cautious, too much focus on damage control. It is very complicated and exhausting.
What are your thoughts and your experience on this, Anita?
LinarraAugust 6, 2021 at 7:05 am #384214Sarah Jeanne BrowneModerator
Im glad you liked my articles and will look at the resources at your own pace! I know you can make it through this.
SarahAugust 6, 2021 at 7:10 am #384215
Before I am able to understand your question at the end of your post, I need to rewrite (italicized are your words) some of what you shared because it helps me process information (reading without rewriting results in information escaping me). If what I rewrite here is incorrect, please let me know:
You wrote that you are calm, resilient and very well adjusted to your life as it is now. Your meaning/ passion is aiming at an art career. Living with your abusive mother (and with your siblings), you feel strong enough, you know what you are facing and what for, and it provides you with enough difficulty to keep yourself stimulated/inspired. If you lived anywhere else/ in the outside world, you will not feel strong enough, or calm enough, and you will have no idea what you are facing and what for.
Writing in your thread, having the opportunity to write and rewrite provides you with clarity out of your own chaos, soothing you. You are uncomfortable with the idea of psychotherapy because you are (or appear to be) very well structured and the therapist may wrongly conclude that you did not/ are not suffering that much trauma and abuse, because if you did, you wouldn’t appear so well-structured. You are afraid that the therapist will therefore minimize/ invalidate your difficulties, confusing the fact that you adapted to your circumstances a little too well with the notion that your circumstances weren’t/ aren’t too bad.
You are grateful for your adaptability to your current environment, but you are afraid that it causes an un-adaptability to the outside world. You feel like a fraud when you are functional and when you are not functional.
Your mother mostly cared about appearances and surface, so she wasn’t able to locate and possess your creativity, psychology, or philosophical explorations. You are therefore motivated to explore what has been all along protected from her, and unmotivated to explore relationships, mingling with the outside world.
“I wasn’t able to find enough meaning in the outside world to take the risks alone… I am still tied to my safer path. The appeal doesn’t match the difficulty and risks… Am I willing to let other humans get close to me? Is it worth it? Even if my mother was gone, I am too guarded and cautious, too much focus on damage control. It is very complicated and exhausting. What are your thoughts and your experience on this, Anita?“-
It took me 2 hours of processing your recent post before I experienced an aha moment. My aha moment answers these 3 questions: “How can I be both so calm and so anxious? How am I able to take abuse so well and yet unable to face casual interactions with outsiders? How can I be so functional in a messy environment, and feeling like a mess in situations that seem manageable for other people?”-
– I hesitate to give you my answer, not because I think that it may be untrue, but because it is something that took me many, many years to realize in regard to my life-experience, and I am afraid that it will fall on deaf ears, it being too soon for you to consider, and that it may distress you. If you choose to keep reading, and it distresses you, you are welcome to not respond to what follows, so to .. forget about it):
Here it is: you still love your mother and your sense of (relative) safety is with her. You know that she abuses you (and that makes you so anxious), but you also believe that she will not kill you. You know that she will let you live because she has let you live so far. This relative feeling of safety allows you to feel so calm living with her. You can be so functional in a messy environment because you love the woman who is creating the mess, and you believe that she loves you enough to keep you safe.
On the other hand, in the outside world, people other than your mother (those strangers she claimed to have hurt you, protecting you against them before)- they may kill you. Those outside world situations that seem manageable for other people- feel deadly to you because if you let other humans get close to you, they will hurt you real bad.
That’s all as far as my aha moment/ answer goes. As to your reaction to the above, it occurred to me in the last fifteen minutes or so, that it may hit you as an intellectual understanding, and that you may agree with it, but not be connected to it emotionally (?)
anitaAugust 6, 2021 at 11:12 am #384223
Thank you for your cautiousness. Your answer does not distress me. I have seen darker parts of myself than the one that might still care about my mother.
My relationship with my parents has always been a complex one. Once there was love, for sure, and if there are remains of it then so be it. My parents loved me and were insane/unhealthy enough to abuse me in spite of that. Even the few times it got physical, I never feared for my life. Only my mental health would be at risk.
I have been very frustrated by my parents, and it wasn’t even much about the abuse. They could have got away with that if they had healed themselves and stopped the abuse. Instead, my father went for self-destruction, and more aggressiveness. It was a disappointment, in the end, I could only accept what couldn’t change. I knew he would meet his death early enough, I was hoping it would be sooner than later when he made us suffer. His death was meet years later after I understood it’ll be coming for him, underwhelmingly. I wasn’t sad. It made sense, it was meant to be, it wasn’t a bad thing. My mother hit me for not being sad. It was one of the few times she actually hit. I wasn’t sorry.
Did I love my father? I did. He could be an awful person, but he had some interesting things about him. And he loved me. But I also know we would have had many exhausting arguments and fights between us if he lived, so I am not unhappy he is gone either. He actually took better care of us by dying than by staying alive. It sounds like an awful thing to say. But sometimes reality is awful.
I noticed the extent of my mother’s insanity and abuse way after I noticed my father’s. I had felt it before, but I didn’t understand it. The realization, when she became worse, felt like a betrayal. Interestingly enough, I felt less close and personal with my mother than with my father despite spending more time with her. The connection and betrayal were more about the fact she had protected us from our father to just… end up being like him, but more expressive, dramatic, and controlling? And lasting. She relied on us to survive. Her mental health wouldn’t allow her to be alone or without her children. So of course, she would not kill us. She would just break us then try to repair us as the savior she’s trying to play. Or break herself and accuse us of the crime if we weren’t playing along well. Once you understand how she works and protects yourself against her acting, well, she’s safe enough to be around. ONLY if she is under the illusion you are not escaping from her and she still holds you within her grasp.
Do I feel love for my mother? I can’t tell much, with the mixed feelings. I will be able to tell more after she’s gone. It is easier to acknowledge the love for an abusive parent when they are not a problem anymore.
I feel pity for her. I don’t think she’s very proud of what she is, and that shame makes her worse. But I can’t be in too much empathy when I am protecting myself. I really don’t want to repeat the story for myself. I will not fall into external abuse, I know better. But, bearing with household’s abuse? Sure it can be done, as long I gain something from it.
‘’On the other hand, in the outside world, people other than your mother (those strangers she claimed to have hurt you, protecting you against them before)- they may kill you’’
Here you have my brain who wants to make a lot of rational claims about the probability I could or not meet someone that could kill me. I will refrain from that, I guess, for now. Emotions and fears aren’t rational.
So, yeah… People from the outside world are less predictable than my parents, so I couldn’t protect myself as easily if they wanted to hurt me. In a deadly way or not. I am unsure of how to cope with this, if it is what is happening.
Maybe I can share an event that happened in my early childhood and that would fit the theme. I do not usually talk about it because I am over it and it already spread too much without my consent thanks to my parents, but it could hold helpful information.
I want to clarify: I do not particularly identify or feel emotional toward the event, but the aftermath can hint at how I shaped my mind around concrete, outsider aggression. After all, the first experiences are something that shapes the brain.
I guess I should make a trigger warning. If you’re very uncomfortable or distressed with mentions of child molesting you might want to skip the next paragraphs. Nothing graphic of course, but I don’t want to trigger anyone.
The story is short: I was between 6-7, playing with my sister outdoor alone in the neighborhood, and I was interrupted and molested by an unknown man who later was revealed to be living nearby. I got away with only a bit of molesting, he stopped because he was scared to get caught.
Personally, I felt lucky that this kind of assault didn’t end with me disappearing forever or being found dead in some strange place. My parents weren’t as happy. Understandable enough.
The guy was caught. I didn’t have much aftercare after the whole event, but I was mostly fine. I reassured myself by thinking : it happened once and I was lucky, it is like a lesson. And honestly, what are the odds it would happen again to me specifically? Probably it is a lifetime event. But let’s say it does happen again, if I’m unlucky. Now I know it’s a thing, maybe next time I’ll be able to react and fight back? Figure out a smart way out of this. And what if I am unable to make it safe? Well, I could die. If I die fast enough it’ll be over. End of existence would mean it isn’t my problem anymore. It wouldn’t like to die, especially in such unfortunate circumstances, but there are worse thing than death. Like, living in fear. I don’t want that. So I will stop worrying about the next time.
That was it for me. My parents needed more reassuring than me, so I showed them I was fine. I was even accused by my father of bragging because I expressed I was fine instead of showing trauma. That’s rude and insensitive of him, I think. I was confused and upset that my parents weren’t happy with me being fine. It was almost like they would have preferred for me to be traumatized. I chose to not follow their expectations because I didn’t want to suffer from any consequence. I really believed I was as fine as I could be and it was a good thing.
Too soon after the event, my father had contacted the press and made scandal over the affair, making the event public news in my village. I heard of it from a schoolmate I never talked to. The news was out. Now people that I didn’t know had thoughts and opinions of what happened to me. I had to live with that, and it was less comfortable than having to live with the memory of the event. It was in my power to cope with something happening to me. It wasn’t in my power to cope with everybody knowing it and having thoughts about it. It was upsetting. I thought they would forget, but it lasted. My mother reported to me about a stranger speaking of me about that event even ten years after it happens. I didn’t doubt her, as I myself heard people gossiping about it or had even been asked directly about it. I preferred the latter because at least I was given a chance to speak my mind, even if I wasn’t prepared to and was weirded out.
Silly enough, I was more able to find reassuring coping thoughts about the molestation event than I was about strangers talking about me behind my back.
Of course, I do not exclude the possibility that despite all my will to be strong alone and all my self-affirmations, I might have kept some unconscious fear in me from the initial event. I do not like the idea of that, because it would take back the power I gave myself and I’m unsure how to cope with the fact I cannot just decide to be strong, but I can intellectually acknowledge the possibility.
Whether the cause of my unsafety is the brainwashing of my mother about ‘’all the bad people’’ (that had started before the event, it’s her general mindset, my mother didn’t bring up the event as much as she could have surprisingly enough) or is the consequence of this event, or the bullying, or any other rational and irrational causes… I am unsure what strategy to adopt to deal with the outside world.
It is a complex issue. You do not have to bring solutions. I am good with just sharing thoughts and experiences. I’m alright with analyzes. My mind is strong and I don’t get distressed easily as you might have noticed. If anything, distress would probably not be so bad if it ever happened. As long it isn’t provoked by someone trying to harm me, I can deal with it. I wouldn’t avoid someone who isn’t bad for me. I do not shy away from difficult thoughts easily.
LinarraAugust 6, 2021 at 1:43 pm #384227
You are welcome and thank you. When I read your third sentence I knew everything was in it. I will attend to it after my comment regarding the event of your molestation and it becoming public:
You wrote: “Whether the cause of my unsafety is the brainwashing of my mother about ‘all the bad people’ (that had started before the event..) or is the consequence of this event, or the bullying…“-
– not too long ago, I looked back at my life, noting the scary and humiliating experiences of childhood and adulthood (including molestations), and I knew that no one and nothing has ever scared me more than my mother scared me. Currently, I am scared for the world (global warming/climate change). I am scared for the U.S. (that democracy will be lost within the next 4 years)… and yet, these fears are minor in comparison to my fear of my mother, and for my mother (as she repeatedly talked about and threatened to commit suicide).
The fear for her life was intense because as a child, I needed her too much. The fear of her was intense because a child loves her mother and trusts her wholeheartedly, and when the mother turns against the child, the fear and the sense of betrayal is unspeakable.
I hope that you are okay if I repeat what I asked you earlier: to not express empathy for me, ex., by saying something like: I am sorry you were molested, etc., not here, not in this context. (I am refraining from expressing the same to you).
Back to your third sentence: “I have seen darker parts of myself than the one that might still care about my mother“- did you notice that you equated caring about your mother to a dark part of yourself?
A child’s love for her mother is the most beautiful feeling in the world, nothing feels better, it’s LIGHT, not darkness… until mother turns against child, and the light is turned off. And then, there is darkness.
anitaAugust 6, 2021 at 3:05 pm #384229
I see… It makes sense. Caring for someone become a weakness if the person happens to be destructive. And it is even moreso for children, who are so dependent on their parents. Especially their mother.
I can feel the fear, or the ghosts of it. I remember the many times I cried when my mother threatened her own life before my eyes and I had to convince her not to. Or the anxiety of thos times she would disappear after one of those scenes, and I wondered if she’ll come back or she was suiciding herself somewhere. I also remember when I ceased to care after too many times she played the same suicide threats game, when I started to held her responsible for her own behavior and well-being, while fearing that by trying to make her realize she had to change, I might actually trigger the actual suicide. It didn’t, thankfully. In the end it was the same threats repeated on a loop without much change.
When I got older she stepped up the game. But in the end it wasn’t the real thing. She managed to get some reactions, but not that much. Some times, she would pull a scene and leave a note accusing us for her death. It was something. We had to get rid of it just in case it would get us in trouble. We knew intellectually we did nothing deserving this guilt tripping and accusations. We only were protecting ourselves and refusing to take the responsibility for her mental health. But we still felt the weight of what she was trying to make us bear.
I guess even after I decided to not care anymore, even when I released myself from this caretaking role she forced on me, the fear was still there. It is hard to process and be alright when someone goes very far to make everything feel unsafe.
She is a scary person. She’s made sure to make everything feeling scary. Herself. The world. Myself. She made me feel bad and like a harmful person so many times during the process of extracting myself from her mental control.
Fear is easy to nurture in kids. Fear is a powerful. Fear assured her we wouldn’t leave her I think.
“I hope that you are okay if I repeat what I asked you earlier: to not express empathy for me”
It is okay to repeat yourself. I will try my best to keep it in mind. I want this conversation to be comfortable for both of us so I want to stand by your rules.
Do you think fighting the caring, fighting the the fear, is an hopeless fight? Once the “Caring = danger” formula has been feed by the parents to children, it seems like a tough belief to rewrite.
Probably no love exist without some kind of fear, there’s always a risk. But there’s a difference with a healthy/regular amount of fear coming with interpersonal relationships, and the terror of being possibly sucked into a living hell every time someone wants to get too close.
And when the person is actually one it is dark and unhealthy to care for, like ou mothers… We can only cope with it I guess? If caring wasn’t entirely killed by the repeated terror then probably nothing can get rid off this.
LinarraAugust 6, 2021 at 3:34 pm #384230
When I wrote to you last, I didn’t know that your mother too threatened suicide, and as I read your recent post, I was amazed at the growing similarity between your mother and mine, it is unbelievable… you not caring at one point if she kills herself or not (“I ceased to care after too many times she played the same suicide threats game“)- I was 20 or so, walking with her on the street, in the city, she said she will be throwing herself under a truck.. I followed her, she walked fast, my heart beating fast, my brain frozen with the thought: so do it, do it already, just do it… (or is it my thought now, retroactive).
Unlike you, I never held her responsible for her suicidal talk, threats and behaviors. In early years, younger than 10, I walked at night looking up at the sky, full of stars, praying to the stars and to the absent god.. please keep my mother alive, please oh please…
“She made me feel bad and like a harmful person so many times“- she said she had to kill herself because of who I was, who she said I was.
“Do you think fighting the caring, fighting the the fear, is an hopeless fight? Once the “Caring = danger” formula has been feed by the parents to children, it seems like a tough belief to rewrite“- it was hopeless for me for many years, until my years (since 2011) of hard work paid off and (it feels like a miracle) much of the fear is gone, much of that fear. And the depression too. The more I see the truth, the healthier I get. But.. nothing can undo those early years, nothing can undo the betrayal.
“Probably no love exist without some kind of fear, there’s always a risk. But there’s a difference with a healthy/regular amount of fear coming with interpersonal relationships, and the terror of being possibly sucked into a living hell every time someone wants to get too close“- it is about the amount of fear. There is always fear, always will be- but (again, it feels like a miracle), there is an amount of fear that I can endure and still be Alive= not shut down.
“And when the person is actually one it is dark and unhealthy to care for, like our mothers… We can only cope with it I guess? If caring wasn’t entirely killed by the repeated terror then probably nothing can get rid off this“- I am not clear about what you mean, but if you mean whether it’s too late to love-and-be-loved by our mothers, my answer is a definite-and-forevermore: No.
anitaAugust 7, 2021 at 1:58 am #384237
I didn’t know about this similarity either before you mentioned the suicide threats. I thought back about whether or not I did mention my mother’s suicide threats in this thread, I guess I didn’t, or not explicitly. At a time, it would have been one of the first thing I told about her when I was able to open up. But I’ve grown tired of it.
Once, when I was sent to a worried school nurse in middle school, I had to reassure her, tell her the half truth that, yes, my mother was having hard times, but we were treated alright and everything would be fine eventually. Because I couldn’t risk me and my siblings to be sent away in an unknown place with strangers due to an unhealthy household. Our mother warned us about her own experience of being abused and exploited when she was sent away herself because her mother was too mentally sick to take care of her and her siblings. So we were cautious of that.
I guess I only started mentioning the suicide threats of her when passed majority and there wasn’t such a risk anymore. It was the first thing I told about her, because it was safer to tell about that than other things. Her suicide threats were more outstanding for me anyway. She wasn’t discreet about her depression and she liked to act publicly as a victim so she wouldn’t have minded as much.
The other things, like the verbal abuse, I didn’t dare for long. If I mentioned publicly something that might accuse her, she could have get back at me and tell publicly I was a bad person causing her intense distress. Telling people I was the reason why she was so mentally sick, and use my words as a proof of it.
I felt guilty for not feeling or acting compassionate towards her anymore, I felt guilty for the mean words I told her when she was hurting me, and I still felt a bit responsible for not being able to save her from herself too, so it was harder to mention anything that could hint into that. I was hiding a crime, almost, because I wasn’t able to tell if really I should have been sacrificing myself for her. I believed people outside would think I should have, because my mother was so confident about my responsibility in all of this. So I kept the most dirty parts of our relationship secret.
All my life, it was a choice between saving her or saving myself. I couldn’t do both. When I was young, I tried saving her and I noticed I was powerless, even when I prioritized her, because she was resisting and was out of reach. So I chose to save myself and bear with the guilt and accusations.
I was younger than you when my brain followed the thoughts of “so do it, do it already, just do it…“. Maybe middle school, maybe highschool. I tend to mix up my reaction to my father’s and my mother’s self destruction. Anyway, there are no doubts that I thought those things because I remember telling it out loud to my family. If it isn’t to my mother, it would be sharing my thoughts about the situation to my siblings. I was quite open about the fact the hurt needed to cease, one way or another. Even if it made me a bad girl for thinking life would be better without the self-destructive behavior of our parents, I had to speak up, because it felt true.
My mother told me she would die and I would have to replace her, to be my siblings’ caretaker in her stead. She told me she might die before I would reach majority (but I made her promise to wait until then, something along the way of “you can do whatever you want after I am 18, but if you do it before there’s no way I’ll be able to be legally chosen as a caretaker”). I don’t know how old I was when she started with that, but it was too young. It broke me. I couldn’t worry about her when I had to worry about me and my siblings. I couldn’t be both a parent and a child, she had to chose, I had to chose. Well, in the end, I was a child trying to parent her mother with hope I wouldn’t have to be the parent of my siblings, not alone. I couldn’t be an adult if nobody was teaching me how. And my mother couldn’t teach me, she was behaving like an adult child.
“much of the fear is gone, much of that fear. And the depression too. The more I see the truth, the healthier I get. But.. nothing can undo those early years, nothing can undo the betrayal.” “there is an amount of fear that I can endure and still be Alive= not shut down.”
It is a relief. I am glad it is something that can happen. I am glad it happened for you. The past and betrayal can’t be changed. But if the consequences of this can be diminished enough to be alive, it is hopeful enough.
“I am not clear about what you mean, but if you mean whether it’s too late to love-and-be-loved by our mothers, my answer is a definite-and-forevermore: No.”
I am not sure about what I meant either. About what I would want. Love with my mother is more often poisonous than not. I think the part of me that is able to love her is the part who sees the human, not the mother. And I also don’t feel good about her love, and I won’t be able to feel good about it for as long she sees the daughter, the object, the reflection of herself instead of the person I am. I am able to see her as a person now, but I am unsure she will ever see and love me as a person.
Either way, I can live without that. I have my siblings. She’s not the only family member I can bond with.
I do hope someday I’ll be able to find love on the outside. Intimate enough non-romantic non-sexual love. Something that would not be objectifying, something that would be respectful, with safe boundaries, with healthy enough minds to allow that. It feels like a silly fantasy, it feels childish. It hurts. It is dangerous for me to want that, because it hurts every time I notice someone want something from me, something I can’t give or feel unsafe to give. Loving fully is giving someone the opportunity to twist it against me, to use me, or to leave me.
When someone is reaching my heart, the first thing I do to protect myself and to protect them and the relationship, is to imagine the absence of it, and accepting it. It allows me to make sure I’ll survive it, and to make sure I wouldn’t disrespectfully cross a boundary if someone wanted to leave me and for me to take step back. For me it is the healthiest thing I can do.
I do it openly. I tell to the friend who’s getting too close I would be ok with either outcome. I think, most of the time, while I find it reassuring, the friend may find it cold and worrying. If they have some kind of internal wounds they can take it like a personal rejection. It isn’t like that to me, for me you can both love someone and build your resilience against the pain that could happen related to the relationship. So I try to explain where I’m coming from to make it clear there’s nothing personal. I don’t think it is enough reassurance for people with too much rejection fear though.
In the end, I wonder if I’ll be able to fully trust someone again. Especially when it comes to be loved. It is easier for me to love than be loved. Or maybe this statement is inaccurate, as it is not easy to actually express the love, since it could hurt someone, or give them the opportunity to hurt me. The feeling is there, the expression of it is passing a lot of control check in order to keep everyone safe.
I feel safe loving without being loved back. I feel uncomfortable/weird being loved and not loving back. I feel both dreadful and unspeakably joyful at the idea of loving and being loved back. I think it’s a good way to summarize.
LinarraAugust 7, 2021 at 6:44 am #384238
The similarities continue to emerge: “Our mother warned us about her own experience of being abused and exploited when she was sent away herself because her mother was too mentally sick to take care of her and her siblings“- my mother was sent alone to an institution for abandoned children after her mother died and her father turned to alcohol and other women. Later on, she lived with her oldest sister who terribly abused her. Extreme childhood experiences can create extreme pathology.
“I felt guilty for the mean words I told her when she was hurting me“- when she hit me she said: the only thing I like about you is that you look down and you don’t talk back when I hit you. I never said mean words to her, but at one point on, I purposefully looked at her anger showing on my face. (One time when she hit me with her arm, she said: you are hurting my arms, look what you did to me!
“I was hiding a crime, almost… I kept the most dirty parts of our relationship secret“- my mother was very loud when she screamed at me and hit me in the small apartment, the neighbors heard, no one said anything. At that time, where I was, parents owned their children. What a parent did to her/ his child was the parent’s business. No child protective services existed, and no police involvement.
One time, to “protect” me, she made a huge scene in my Elementary School where all the children and all the teachers were outside the classrooms, watching her hit and yell at a teacher for a long, long time. It was of course horrified and humiliating (The teacher’s crime: she called me “auntie”- that’s all I was told. There was no legal consequence or any follow up to the event).
“I was younger than you when my brain followed the thoughts of ‘so do it, do it already, just do it…’ ..there are no doubts that I thought those things“- after I submitted the post to you yesterday, I became certain that I thought those thoughts at the time, in my early 20s, I remembered clearly. I remember being tired of it all. After she did NOT jump under a truck, I had to hear her talk and talk emotionally for hours until she was tired. Then at night and next few days she was eerily quiet.
“My mother told me she would die and I would have to replace her, to be my siblings’ caretaker… I made her promise to wait until then, something along the way of ‘you can do whatever you want after I am 18, but if you do it before there’s no way I’ll be able to be legally chosen as a caretaker’)”-
– she gave you a job then, she .. sort of trusted you to do an important job, which fits with what I said before: that your sense of meaning and personal power is (still) in the household where you live with your mother and siblings, and not outside of it. Having been entrusted with a job, with a sense of personal power, you were able to use that power to negotiate with her as to the timing of her future suicide.
My mother was not… generous enough to entrust me with any job, to give me a meaning and a sense of personal power. She said that I can’t do anything, that I am a “Nothing”, and a “Big Zero”.
“I think the part of me that is able to love her is the part who sees the human, not the mother“- and the part of you that is your mother’s little girl, who for a long time early on looked up to her mother, worshipping her.. what does that part feel for your mother (?)
“Loving fully is giving someone the opportunity to twist it against me, to use me, or to leave me… it is not easy to actually express the love, since it could hurt someone“- I strongly relate to both parts.
“I feel both dreadful and unspeakably joyful at the idea of loving and being loved back. I think it’s a good way to summarize“- fear and joy are both forms of neural/ chemical excitation. For the longest time I was very uncomfortable with both, and calm was my only objective. Recently I am able to endure and enjoy… some joy here and there, like right now. It is a quiet, pleasant joy.
anitaAugust 7, 2021 at 10:08 am #384244
“Extreme childhood experiences can create extreme pathology.”
They really do. My mother experience’s with an abusive foster family was from early childhood, then she was taken back by her mother, who didn’t like her (and probably didn’t want her back but was pressured to). My mother’s greatest pain was the absence of love and support from her mother. She was thrown out on her 18th birthday and had to deal with it. Yet, she kept loving her mother, she kept in touch and kept sending her gift. Her mother was rejecting her love and her desire to keep in touch. At some point, my mother gave up, but she wasn’t over it.
A year ago, after 15 years of silence with her mother, she had news of her : she committed suicide and was successful. We learned a lot about her when cleaning up and emptying her apartment after her death. She was alone (avoiding people just like she avoided my mother, probably shameful or anxious), sick physically and mentally, turned to alcohol and to a lot of medication… We learned every single person we know about from my grandmother’s family turned to alcohol and had severe psychological issues, among those a lot of them were depressive and suicidal. My mother thinks there were big family secrets that were taken to the grave. My mother had quite a pathological heritage.
“One time when she hit me with her arm, she said: you are hurting my arms, look what you did to me!”
So typical, abusing you then making a role reversal…
Mine was more active on verbal abuse than physical, but her speech and attacks were interestingly reflections of what she feared to be attacked upon. She would verbally attack us, we would be upset, and without even having to throw anything back at her she would react just as if the insults she threw at us were insults we threw at her.
It looked like she wanted to be abused, sometimes. Honestly, she gave us all the information, she showed all her weaknesses, we could have destroyed her psychologically by aiming at her fears. But, why for? Children need and want a functional healthy mother, not an abused one that would have to deal with her suffering before being able to take care of them…
When we were young, we did throw back at her some of the unfair verbal abuse, with the hope it would make her understand she was being hurtful. Ignorant thinking, of course, it wasn’t a lesson she could learn from. We noticed so we stopped. We weren’t all in the same stage of maturity, or same emotional state, so there was always some to play along with her little game, unfortunately.
Trying to solve that, make everyone more sensible, and having less of everyone hurting each other, was upon me because I was the first to realize it was messed up. Even after we stopped playing along, she didn’t need us to hurt herself by hurting us. And she was very paranoid at us, she didn’t understand we just wanted her healthy, and non-abusive.
” At that time, where I was, parents owned their children. What a parent did to her/ his child was the parent’s business. No child protective services existed, and no police involvement.”
I think that time and way of thinking is responsible for a lot of pathologies, unfortunately.
“After she did NOT jump under a truck, I had to hear her talk and talk emotionally for hours until she was tired. Then at night and next few days she was eerily quiet.”
My mother did that too. Emotional talks for way too long, very incoherent, jumping to every misery she can think of. Repeating herself. Or, the extreme quietness, absence of response, silent treatment. Sometimes I had to check if she wasn’t dead.
“she gave you a job then, she .. sort of trusted you to do an important job, which fits with what I said before: that your sense of meaning and personal power is (still) in the household where you live with your mother and siblings, and not outside of it.”
Indeed, she did so. I refused it officially, yet I eventually integrated it despite not feeling ready. And well, I wasn’t very successful. Mostly, I failed. It was a mission I couldn’t succeed in.
You are right though, despite the failure there was some trust, even if it was misplaced it was there. She sometimes complimented me, even if it was on aspects she could make use of. She needed me to have power if she wanted to use me as a tool or a weapon. This power went right back at her when I decided I knew better than her and wouldn’t let her use me for unhealthy things anymore.
If my sense of meaning and my personal power is still in the household after all this time though… I don’t know how healthy it is supposed to be for me at this age and for my future.
“My mother was not… generous enough to entrust me with any job, to give me a meaning and a sense of personal power. She said that I can’t do anything, that I am a “Nothing”, and a “Big Zero”.”
How did you find your meaning and personal power? If you’re willing to share with me, of course. No obligation.
“and the part of you that is your mother’s little girl, who for a long time early on looked up to her mother, worshipping her.. what does that part feel for your mother (?)”
This was so long ago… I wonder. I think… I think the little girl is afraid. I find it scary how a person I needed to rely upon could behave like that. I feel betrayed by the parent I thought she could be reliable.
I am sad her good intentions were so messed up. Because my mother’s narrative was “You should be grateful, unlike my mother I didn’t abandon you, unlike my mother I loved you.” Indeed, my mother did the reverse, she possessed me like an object, refused me to grow as a person, wanted to keep me in her loving-yet-abusive prison so she wouldn’t be alone. She loved me as she would love a possession. I didn’t want this kind of love.
If she can’t love me the healthy way then I just need space from her. She’s sucking my oxygen and my ability to grow. Unless drastic changes happen, which I cannot hope for anymore, she’ll never love me the right way. So I don’t want her love and don’t feel comfortable loving her.
And I feel cruel for that, because she wants to love and be loved so bad. But she’s so sick in her way to do it, so destructive. While I do not agree with the abandonment my grandmother did to my mother, I understand how someone could reject love. I felt like abandoning my mother so many times, I gave up on helping her.
I do not want to reject the world and shutting myself down in isolation like my grandmother. But… better no love than messed up love. I am not one for abusive love, I am not one for codependency.
“fear and joy are both forms of neural/ chemical excitation. For the longest time I was very uncomfortable with both, and calm was my only objective.”
I might have been in this phase for the last few years. Might still be. I think I have mixed feelings between my need for love and my need for peace and calm. I used to reject love very strongly. Now I am mostly avoiding it very quietly.
Sometimes, I am secretly needing for love and comfort, but I keep it to myself, quiet it down. I don’t want to repeat my mother’s mistake. Until I learn how to love and be loved the right way I’m afraid to burden another human with my needs. I can’t afford to be needy. But at least I can give love and support to those I care about (and who I trust enough) without expecting anything in return. By doing that, I can at least feel some love without too many risks.
“Recently I am able to endure and enjoy… some joy here and there, like right now. It is a quiet, pleasant joy.”
I am glad you are able to feel more comfortable with those emotions. It is a sign of healthiness.
By right now, did you mean, while writing this message to me? Was it our discussion that made you feel pleasant joy, or am I interpreting it wrong? Either way, I am pleased you were able to feel a positive emotion while responding to me, as it probably means you aren’t uncomfortable with our talks.
LinarraAugust 7, 2021 at 11:22 am #384247
“She’s sucking my oxygen“- I thought of my mother as a vampire, sucking my blood (what a parallel!)
“My mother’s greatest pain was the absence of love and support from her mother“- reads to me that there was not only an absence in her childhood in regard to her mother, but also the presence of dislike and aversion, some anger must have been present (her mother didn’t like her, threw her out at 18, rejected her love and avoided her).
“she would react just as if the insults she threw at us were insults we threw at her“- she heard insults from her past, imagined that her children were thinking those insults and proceeded to defend herself against.. the voices in her head.
“we could have destroyed her psychologically by aiming at her fears. But, why (what) for? Children need and want a functional healthy mother, not an abused one“-
– the abusive, materialistic mother who cares for appearances, doesn’t need a healthy child, she has no use for a healthy child. Later on, when her child is an adult, she sees the use: an adult can add to her income, make it possible for her to live in a bigger house, provide her with expensive things and prestige. But a child? A child cannot give her what she wants. She doesn’t care what a child feels inside.. If her child feels happy and healthy, can she buy anything with it?
“she possessed me like an object, refused me to grow as a person, wanted to keep me in her loving-yet-abusive prison… She loved me as she would love a possession. I didn’t want this kind of love“- but it was not any kind of love, not even a love of an object kind-of-love: when a person loves an object, she doesn’t purposefully break the object, does she…?
“If she can’t love me the healthy way then I just need space from her“- what if she didn’t love you at all.. what if she was/is often angry at you, intending to hurt you, and then doing what she can do to hurt you (without leaving incriminating evidence like broken bones) … and then, once in a while she feels affection for you… is that love?
“she wants to love and be loved so bad“- but she wants to destroy more than she wants to love.. (?)
“How did you find your meaning and personal power?”- part answer, what comes to my mind at this time: by seeing more and more of what is true and removing from my understanding what is not true. For example (since I mentioned love right above): I mistakenly believed that my mother loved me and therefore I felt very, very badly about ending all contact with her, which I finally did in 2013. I thought that me ending contact with her will break her heart. I finally understood that she didn’t love me, and therefore, I understood that for her, having no contact with me- was not a big deal. It was a big deal only in my mind and heart, not in hers.
Bringing this part-answer to a bigger answer: once you are able to separate yourself from your mother, to really know who you are vs who she is, what is yours, what is hers– it is then that you can find your individual meaning and personal power.
“Was it our discussion that made you feel pleasant joy, or am I interpreting it wrong?“- imagine.. I felt joy and I didn’t bother to ask myself Why… amazing.. I used to be so analytical, I used to let nothing just be. My answer, therefore, is I just felt a pleasant type of joy, don’t remember now. I don’t even care to know why.. it just felt good.
- This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by anita.