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I was a mistress to a married man. (Regrets)

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This topic contains 11 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  anita 1 week, 1 day ago.

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  • #132541

    Carolin
    Participant

    (Ain’t this a long one. Scroll down to ** for a plea of help)

    I was taking part in a religious voluntary cause last year. I loved helping others, but the people that were managing the cause was becoming a bit rude to the juniors to the point that I felt like I was being used. Shortly, I left the organization and went on with life, particularly college.

    One day, a guy that had also been in the cause and was part of the managing organization confronted me. Said he had noticed me, but I didn’t even know him. He was aware of how dysfunctional the organization was, and apologized in behalf of the community for what they did to me, showing how compassionate he could be.

    Long story short, we became what he regarded as “best friends”. I found out he’s a very intelligent man. He told me many things about himself, one being him in the past, having 5 girlfriends at the same time – a polyamorous relationship where everyone happily agreed with everything they’re doing. He never had any guy friend, but the way he talked about it makes me feel like many girls back then were falling in love with him. They would go to as far as throwing themselves under him and basically let him do whatever he wanted. He said he only did 2 girls, who were part of those 5 gfs: one being a very kind married woman who had been thrown out of her own family, dumped by her husband, bullied by the rest of the people and had a severe mental illness later on which made her entirely dependent on him – and one unmarried woman 7 years younger who also happened to have the ideal personality, the ideal body and the ideal face, pretty much the highest standard of beauty in where I live like she’s plucked out of a foreign magazine. She was physically-abused by men who loves her just by her looks and he came in just in time to scoop her up in her lowest zones.

    Basically, what I’ve deduced from all his stories, was that he’s a well-respected man among women because he was kind-hearted, intelligent, loyal, brave, honest, compassionate – and as he said to me a million times: “different from the typical guys these days who were cruel to women. That’s why I never have any guy friend, because I know how horrible they can be to me and my (girl)friends.

    I believed in him. In time, we began to fall in love. But not until later that he confessed to me that he already has a wife. A wife that doesn’t know that he had those 5 girlfriends before (and now, possibly) and that he had intimate relationships as well as sex with not just 2 of her girlfriends, but who knows how many more outside of it (I heard about this later, and not from his own mouth. He apparently would do just about any woman that is physically attractive regardless of her background and whether she’s married or not. He would deem it as form of a pity – he pitied the girls who are always begging to be f’ed by him). They have been happily married for 5 years, and he claimed he loves her more than any other people in the world.

    I came to a full-stop “whoa, whoa” and tried to regard him as friend immediately the day after. He didn’t. He was constantly asking me what I’m doing and showered me with love. I eventually loosened up, somehow got pulled to his “everything is alright and safe” world, then opened up more to each other through everyday stories. Eventually, he invited me to his apartment when his wife was out working. He was unemployed at the moment, so he had a lot of free time, but we didn’t do anything suspicious. It had to go several days like that, going back to his apartment to lay around and just talk for hours – before he confessed his love to me.

    That point onwards, we started to get heated up. The suscpicious things I said we didn’t do, we finally got around to do. He was being extremely royal to me to a point I’d say I was treated like a princess. He gave me countless material gifts, took me out to places I’ve never been and even lending a hefty sum of money for me to continue college. He made me happy just by saying that I was just as special as the other girls in his “special list” (an actual term he coined himself), possibly even more, and said that I will be the last girl that he’ll ever fall in love with in his life.

    But half of me knew that was only part of NRE.
    So after about 3 months in, we started experiencing conflicts. The smallest ones that turn into biggest ones. He would go mad at me for merely walking on the wrong side of him. He would criticize how I shut the door of his car, no matter how hard or soft. He would get angry at me for the slightest change of manner, or when I tried to calm him down if he’s having a rage over something remotely trivial, or being quiet because I was contemplating something that has nothing to do with him. I would genuinely apologize if I did those and hurt him – I accepted it as a constructive criticism. I tried to do what he advised me to do. But after a certain point, he went on and criticized every little thing that I did. He “advised me to” become “he scolded and he told me to”.

    Of course, there are tons more to argue than just that. We keep going back and forth between those stuffs and highly personal values. Every time we got into a fight, he would get defensive and sarcastic if I didn’t immediately drop down or do as he say. 10 first fights, I remained calm, but not for the 11th and up. I was no less flawed – if I get hurt, I tend to “pay back” whatever the other person threw at me so as to make them understand what they had just done. So I would get sarcastic for a while, then back off so as to not let me hurt himself further more. And I realize that was wrong, because I accepted I was the less dominant one in a relationship and I did NOTHING to better anything, simply because I trusted the other person more than myself.

    In the end, he would apologize for hurting us both. But I always have this feeling that he never truly acknowledged his mistakes, and that he never truly believed in people. These feelings, plus all the secrets he keep from everyone? That’s why I find it hard to believe that he is truly sorry for whatever he has done.

    From almost every fights we had, including the many stories he had told me, he would say along the lines like,
    “Nobody ever loved me genuinely.”
    “Everyone is always using me.”
    “I told you to be aware of people because they ALWAYS need something from you. And once they get what they want, they will leave you. When you need them, they’re practically invisible. And that’s how you know you helped the wrong person.”
    “I was always treated like shit, and I was always expected to never do that to anyone.”
    “Everyone wants me to be a robot – to just listen and do whatever everyone wants without acknowledging my feelings.”
    “In the end, I’m always the one who has to beg for forgiveness because I know what’s right for a relationship. I’m the only one who knows how to sacrifice with all my heart.”

    I tried to help him, just like you guys would to aid people that shared their stories in TinyBuddha.
    I was genuinely worried about him, and advised him to let go of the past. To just accept what he has now: a loving wife, AND the “unrealistically perfect magazine girlfriend” that I somehow feel like he’s taking advantage of. She lives in a foreign country now, but they are still in contact. And if he goes on to say he needs her, she will fly to wherever he is in a span of ONE day, just to be with him and fulfill whatever his needs may be. She’s in love with him, and I would go as far as to say she’s WORSHIPPING him because I’ve witnessed how she actually is through her constant status update and the way she always talked about him (yes I’ve talked to her through BBM and eventually became jealous of her… in case you hadn’t noticed from the way I talk about her) and told me to “keep him safe”, over and over again. Both him and this woman talk and behave ridiculously similar, and there are times when I feel like they are playing a game with me as though they’re intent in making me do what they want.

    Every time I advised him to try and be thankful, though, he brushes it off. Every time he threw things like his cellphone across the room after an uncalled fight with me in which I remained cool until after seeing him throw, I asked him to be more patient, he says
    “I’m just not the type to do that. You know I’m always sensitive, so why are you telling this to me? You NEVER listen to me. You NEVER trust me. You NEVER understand me. See why I said ‘everyone wants me to be a freaking robot’ and do bad stuffs to me that they wouldn’t do to themselves?”

    I often wondered if that’s because he knows I am 18 years younger than him (quite a gap, yes) or if it’s a revenge he’s playing on me, because according to him, “you never listen to whatever I advised you to do.”
    I am objective, and I try not as biased as I can be towards myself. I am aware there are things he told me to do that I not do. But they are not without reasonings, which I often explained to him beforehand. Out of 100 “good advices” he gave me, excluding the little petty things he criticized, I did 70 of them. Yes, they are not precise, but I actually counted the percentage (can’t believe I did it). The remaining 30 I left in the dark either because I simply felt like they were unnecessary, or because I felt uncomfortable/not ready enough to do the change.
    I tried to explain my reasonings. But none of them seemed to get through and they only made him angrier at the time, so I soon stopped giving explanations.

    Our relationship had gone on for almost a year now and nobody still noticed because he was very intelligent in lying and hiding things.
    But not until the other night that I finally independently chose to leave him. We were texting each other, arguing about how he always seem to think negatively of what I am doing at the moment and telling me what to do as if I’m his robot now. He got mad because after his repetitive critiques, I offended him with a singular sentence, literally in a light-hearted manner that was intended to also let him know I was unhappy, “why are you always accusing me of the things I didn’t do? tsk tsk”, and proceeded with his sarcastic apologies and sarcastic remarks. In my anger, I retorted with sarcastic remarks as well, the likes he always threw at me. He went offline for a bit, returned back online, just to get offline again without reading my texts at all. I ended the chat with “At least we can block each other now if you are online but don’t intend to read my messages any longer? Thank you.”
    And I did what I’ve always longed to do – block every single one of his contacts on my phone.

    If there’s something I can deduce from my very own self:

    I was the perfect conscience of stupid brain, stupid heart.
    I was always tip-toeing over everything, dancing around something I know was wrong but chose to not look at.
    I was tricked right into his world, thanks to him and that “perfect magazine” girl, creating an imaginary pandora for me to live in where everything simply NEEDS to be perfect for him.
    I foolishly believed in his own belief – that there’s nothing wrong with falling in love, even if it means we already commited to a certain monogamous relationship, or even if it means we have to lie about it.
    I was blinded by love that wasn’t meant to be. And along the way, I had suffered. Karma did me good, and I don’t know what I should do to repent apart from praying, apologizing, and punishing myself in many ways.
    I was dumb enough to let my virginity be taken by someone that I know is not worth it.
    I had been forced to change myself as I endure every of his piercing remarks to the point that my friends told me I’ve changed.
    I had lied to his wife, whom I eventually get to know well and regarded as close friend.
    Not just that, but I had lied to everybody else that I wasn’t going out with someone, just to be with him. And so did he.
    I was the very definition of “the best thing that a girl can be” in The Great Gatsby’s: a fool.

    To this day, I haven’t fully forgiven myself. I have learned, but I haven’t truly accepted what has been done. I’m still quite thunderstruck, honestly.
    I see myself as the bad guy – not able to change him for the better, not being a good enough friend for him like the “perfect magazine” girl who always understood and pacified him. Never truly knowing it to be wrong.
    Everything that I’ve done for him, all the gifts I gave him, I never see him do good of. For all the gifts for him that usually took days for me to prepare and that I know he loves, he will always say “What am I going to explain to my wife?” or “I like this, but I don’t necessarily need it. Why are you wasting your money like this?”
    All this oblivious time, I regarded him as a friend, to a charming crush, to a secret boyfriend, then back to a friend that I no longer know of.
    Deep down inside, I know he is afraid. He is pained. And he is craving for a specific love.
    And yet in the end, I left him without any explanation because I feel the only words he will listen to are the good things about himself.

    I, in my late 19, has experienced to be a secret mistress and that felt horrible, given the background we live in that strictly tabooes polygamy, free sex and love affairs. And I mean, we know each other from a religious voluntary cause! He is a married man, and at one point we chanced to get jealous of each other’s friends for being too close!
    But I believe that in the end, it’s never about who’s wrong or who’s right. What matters is that you walk off from a hole, learning not to walk into another one in the future. It’s not the hole’s fault, nor it is entirely yours. It is just how life is meant to be: full of lessons.
    I just hope and PRAY that no one here in TinyBuddha or elsewhere, has to fall into the same hole as I did and learned nothing good off it. And I am terribly sorry for those who also have had their monogamous relationships ruined by a third person.. I really am, I know how hard it must be now to keep your relationship strong (I was nowhere near experienced in relationships), and from my perspective in cases like this, I hope the said third person have found or will find a good resolution to it. If you are the said third person, I’d advise to re-consider immediately and do everyone a favor to find someone else that is single and better for you.

    That’s it. Very sorry for the long story!

    **I have a plan going for myself as for now. But I was hoping for you guys to help me a little, perhaps with some advice…

    I really, really hope I can somehow explain to him again for the final time of how I feel and think, just to clarify and end the relationship in a good note. I would really love for him to be open to his own wife, if that is possible, and stay loyal just to “the one he loves more than anybody else”.

    If he’s not willing to open up, and if anything else allows, I’m also thinking to opening up to his wife about everything in a calm manner and apologize.. which, I know, can yield two very extreme possible outcomes. But I figure out, my intention is just to get the truth across, and if I was a married woman, I would definitely love it more than deceits. (Still contemplating if she thinks the same way, and would prefer that more than just going on with life without knowing her husband cheats with who knows how many women).

    ^
    |
    |

    Do you think it is ultimately wrong for me to do that? If it is, what is better for me to do now?

    What do you think I should do in my state, perhaps, to ‘repent for my sins’? And to better myself as a growing adult, so as not to let myself repeat the same mistake and hurt another again?

    Thank you for acknowledging this post. And again, I am so sorry.

    #132543

    Inky
    Participant

    Hi Carolin Lim,

    I have SO many thoughts that I will list them:

    1. His wife knows about his “5 or more GFs”.

    2. He is an unemployed loser and compensates by being a wanna-be-Casanova.

    3. I bet he was telling you about all those GFs to make him seem like everyone wants him. Half of them are probably exaggerated. i.e., Someone says “Hi” to him and therefore she wants him.

    4. When you wouldn’t sleep with him right away he started in on the emotional abuse.

    5. YOU are not married to him and he has NO ties to you, so he started in on the control.

    6. He has the pretty girl (you) competing with the super model girl and the super model girl competing with you. Insecurity on his behalf all around! The perfect set up!

    7. You already enacted the perfect revenge: You unceremoniously dumped him. The ceremony of an official closure is more than he deserves. Leave it alone.

    8. If you must tell the wife, wait until a year and a half later when he’s already moved in on his next victim(s). Don’t let on it’s you, but do tell her about the super model girl and that he would brag to you about all these other women.

    These men are sad, they have no job, and so fill their spare time in spreading emotional chaos because they’re bored.

    And P.S., coincidentally, this is the season of Lent, a great time to repent and give something up!

    Blessings,

    Inky

    #132559

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Carolin Lim:

    He told you that he had sex with a woman with “a severe mental illness… which made her entirely dependent on him” and with another woman who was “physically-abused by men who loves her just by her looks and he came in just in time to scoop her up in her lowest zones”

    What you ” deduced from all his stories, was that he’s a well-respected man among women because he was kind-hearted, intelligent, loyal, brave, honest, compassionate”

    What I deduct from his stories is that he takes unfair advantage of women, uses them as sexual objects to satisfy his emotional and sexual desire; he used these women’s weaknesses to harm them and benefit himself. His behavior is the OPPOSITE of being “kind-hearted… loyal, brave, honest, compassionate.”

    He told you that he is “different from the typical guys these days who were cruel to women. That’s why I never have any guy friend, because I know how horrible they can be to me and my (girl)friends.”- he is one of those guys- he is horrible to women.

    He expressed his behavior “as form of a pity – he pitied the girls who are always begging to be f’ed by him”- so he presented his behavior to you as charity, he said he was feeding hungry girls, and the food was sex.

    What he told you reveal to me his childhood experiences and how they affected who he became:
    “Nobody ever loved me genuinely. Everyone is always using me…I was always treated like s***…Everyone wants me to be a robot – to just listen and do whatever everyone wants without acknowledging my feelings.”- how these experiences affected him: he doesn’t love anyone genuinely. He is (mis)using everyone. He treats women like s***. He treats women like they were robots, expecting and demanding that they listen to him and do whatever he wants without acknowledgment of their feelings.

    So, he abuses women in the same ways he was abused as a child. As a child, he was weak and mistreated. As an adult, he finds women and mistreats them using their weaknesses to his advantage.

    Next, you “I tried to help him, just like you guys would to aid people that shared their stories in TinyBuddh… Deep down inside, I know he is afraid. He is pained. And he is craving for a specific love.”

    Please pay attention, Carolin Lim, and consider my following point: people who repeatedly and regularly mistreat, hurt and harm other people, do so following having been mistreated, hurt and harmed themselves by others, as children, most often.

    My first responsibility when encountering people who mistreat, hurt and harm others (and I believe it is your first responsibility and any other person’s) to stop the harm to others, not to heal the one doing the harm. In other words: first thing you do is exit a relationship where you are mistreated FIRST, so you stop the harm to yourself. You protect innocent others (children, others) FIRST, so you stop the harm from being done to others, first.

    To help this man, first eliminate best you can the harm he is doing to you and to others.

    Do not stay in an abusive situation trying to help the abuser. Exit the abusive relationship FIRST.

    You wrote: “I really, really hope I can somehow explain to him again for the final time of how I feel and think, just to clarify and end the relationship in a good note.”- it is impossible to end this bad relationship on a good note. You can end it on a submissive note, a note that makes him… less angry with you, if you are afraid of him, I suppose, but not a good note. Frankly, there has been and is nothing good about this relationship.

    Definitely, do not “let (yourself) repeat the same mistake and hurt another again”

    You wrote: “I’m also thinking to opening up to his wife about everything in a calm manner and apologize..”- that is a possibility. You wrote that you were friends with her, how well do you know her and what do you believe you know about her?

    anita

    #132573

    Elisabeth
    Participant

    Do not tell his wife. You do not have the right to do that and I’m suspecting you are doing this with hopes that she will see your side and/or alleviate your guilty feelings. You left the relationship, so move on. I don’t mean to write words that can sound harsh, but you didn’t tell the wife when you were in the relationship, so why now? I suggest a clean break from the guy and the situation and hope that you can forgive yourself (I’m not judging you at all, but based on your words, it sounds like you are suffering). I hope this helps.

    #133449

    Carolin
    Participant

    Hello, Inky! Thank you for actually listing every one of them down.

    If I were still 2-3 months into this relationship, I would have a come back for everything you had pointed out, simply because I didn’t believe any single bad thing about him back then, indicating I was deluded and tricked into believing he’s a deity~

    You are right. He’s a very insecure man. He tends to react badly to people who disagree the slightest with him, making him appear strict in front of others and that is also the cause why he has very little amount of friends. These little amount of friends he has, he most probably earned through doing the very same tactic that he’s done to me to make me his friend.

    “I bet he was telling you about all those GFs to make him seem like everyone wants him. Half of them are probably exaggerated.” Can’t be any truer.
    I kept going back and forth on this thought alone, because everytime I showed the slight discomfort in him, he would pull me back with his convincing words. As I’ve posted, he was an intelligent man that knows his words and acts. He was well aware of what women likes and not, in turn actually making him a good flirt. But I often find him texting me randomly, when he was out somewhere by his own or to pick his wife from work, saying “a girl is looking directly at me atm and it’s been 10 minutes now. Every time I looked back at her, she turned away.” Despite me being skeptical about his way of perceiving, 80% of the time I would have to react the way he expected me to otherwise he flips out, and that is to say along the lines of “ooh, everyone’s all over you. They don’t know how lucky the girls who get to be close to him are,” (I, now, despise those demented forced words very deeply).

    The rest of the numbers I believe hold true statements. Number 6 where you stated “he has me competing with the super model girl and her competing with me” is also what I’ve been guessing for a long time. It is as if he had made a realm where every girl is out, and needs, to compete for him. As far as I’m concerned, he would go as far as making “hall of fame” and “hall of shame”. What I think is the worst part of it all: him and that supermodel girl thought there’s nothing wrong with it.

    In contrary, I was seen wrong by not “abiding the rules”. I have been somewhat bullied into my position. I foolishly thought they were right because I thought I was so young compared to them that I wouldn’t know half a thing they do. I was insecure and had no faith in myself at the moment, it felt as though I couldn’t live without him, being the way he is: convincing, loving and giving. Which, obviously, is just insane given what I know of him over time.

    Thank you again for listing your thoughts, I find them to be very revealing!
    I will take some time and really contemplate your suggestion deeply before ultimately making (and/or not making) an act.

    And it IS the season of Lent! You don’t know how reading your words have lifted me up so much.
    I will definitely use the time to repent and better myself.

    Once again, thanks so much Inky!

    #133499

    Carolin
    Participant

    Dear Anita, thank you for breaking it all down for me to easily understand. Your words are always so well-contructed!

    I would like to clarify that what I wrote on my initial post might have been affected with my knowledge of him now, and that might make most things, such as “him taking unfair advantage of women” , appear much more obvious in the early paragraphs. I should have written it better (is there no option to edit initial post or am I missing something?), as before the time that I deduced him to be “a well respected man among women”, the facts I heard from him in the past were spoken in very delicate and well-constructed words, even delivered in a positive tone, making me believe in him to be a a man with pure intentions.

    I admit, I got very deluded back then and I believed in him more than I believed myself. He also gifted me a lot of material things, which in turn made me feel like I was in debt to him, like I’m responsible to also make him happy in some other ways. It is also partly because of how he had struck me down every single time I tried to give him a feedback that was out of his expectation, good or not.

    “So he presented his behavior to you as charity.” Exactly.

    “What he told you reveal to me his childhood experiences and how they affected who he became…”
    The words following that sentence of yours are…very true.
    To add to that: he did tell me about how life has been unfair to him. He lived in a poor family, ate just rice and salt everyday (he likes to somehow brag about this often, implying he was a tough boy who had known all the hardships in life from a very young age) and had a very strict father. He claimed to have taken some of those strict and sensitive traits from his father, while he got his loving side from his mother.
    Further more, he would also love to tell me about how lucky he was after growing up and going to college: getting to know said 5 girlfriends, having a lot of beautiful girls begging him for sex, making a lot of money from mere online gaming, having a lot of people support him and much more.
    He would, afterwards, tell me that his life wasn’t so lucky at all because of the people who “had done an irreversible damage to his heart.” He had lent a lot of money to friends that ran away afterwards, he had “invested” and helped accommodate a single mother only to be lied and left behind, then many other similar cases which involve him helping people only to be betrayed.

    Over time, I began to understand the reason he saw me out; he told me I appeared to be gentle and kind. He was trying to find a person who wouldn’t leave him behind, that would stay by his side no matter what and love him no matter how good or bad he is. But what he failed to realize, is that he already has it. She’s already there with him in bed every night, the very woman he proposed to 5 years ago. He also has the supermodel girl for him as his best friend slash love affair. When I asked him why he didn’t marry the supermodel girl (because they have known and loved each other longer than he does his current wife, and she has flawless looks and as he said to me, she always “treated him like a king”), he answered with just:

    “No. I just don’t.”

    Then when I asked the same thing to the supermodel girl, she said that “he was insecure. The thought of dating and marrying a woman that is too attractive and too rich scared him. Even if I had treated him like a king with all my fortune, it still wouldn’t get rid of the fear of him dragging me down with him along the unfortunate, poor family road. Isn’t he such the nicest guy in the world for worrying about my future? Yes he is, and I still haven’t found one single guy that is just like him. *Love emoji*” (actual literal translation) (and the supermodel girl is still not married, still hot for him)

    Anita, your following statements and suggestions after that opened up my eyes. I genuinely agree with the idea of stopping the harm to others first.
    I initially believed that I also have as strong responsibility as to help him heal. I thought that me being the only one to learn a positive lesson from this is not exactly right.
    But I now I’ve become more able to distinguish the things I can’t and shouldn’t do, from the things I can and should actually do. I will definitely re-sort my priorities and regroup every bit of me, completely removing myself from this abusive relationship as well.. It has taken quite its toll on me. Thank you very much!

    And as for my relationship with his wife;
    we hung out a couple times whenever convenient, most of the time his husband being around. We have talked for quite a long time, gave each other small gifts and often talked about the books we love. We liked to hang out in book shops, mostly.
    I find her to be a quiet, reserved, cool and collected girl. A woman who’s ALWAYS there whenever her husband needs her emotionally. I can sense that her and him both cared for each other deeply. The thing that always low-key bugged me is how secretive he can be in front of his wife, particularly regarding his romantic pursuits and the likes; I’ve witnessed more lies than I think I should in a supposedly healthy married couple.

    What do you think?

    Once again, I really appreciate your reply. Thanks, Anita!

    #133661

    Carolin
    Participant

    Ellie, thank you very much for your understanding.

    You are right; I have been suffering for quite some time. Having this kind of relationship is nowhere near healthy for anyone – it’s wrong in many ways. That much knowledge in this relationship was, unfortunately, paired with my poor sense of self-worth, and I was too afraid to let his wife or anyone else know about our relationship at that time. I was afraid of being cast out, afraid of guilt itself, so I turned a blind eye to it.. Now that I’ve finally opened up my eyes again, I finally left him without saying any word. Partly because I was afraid that hearing his reactions and words will somehow affect me negatively, and partly because I just believe I have to put this to end… now. (about damn time!)

    Telling this to his wife, and hoping for her to see my side as well as alleviate my guilty feelings, I think, is just a bonus for me.
    I am aware of what I have done and what I might cause. And I don’t expect a positive reaction entirely from her – she could be head-splitting angry at me, or believe in her husband more than me, or think what I’m saying is a joke or that I’m lying just to cause a ruckus, etc. I am nowhere near wanting her to be that way, nor do I want to break their relationship and the likes.
    I am simply seeking a resolution, a way to tell her the truth simply because I believe a wife deserves to know the truth from her own husband, whether it’s good or not. When I saw that he is in no way changing his behavior soon and he is also in no way going to tell her wife about it (and no one else is certainly going to), I thought that I should. Otherwise it would just go on until probably at some point he would hurt somebody again.

    However, I totally see where you are coming from.
    I might have intervened them too much now or caused too many pain already. I really have to re-consider many things before actually doing, or not doing, something that has a chance to affect a relationship strongly. For now, certainly, I’ll remove myself from his reach and will not get close to him any more.

    I really, really appreciate your input. Thanks so much Ellie!

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Carolin.
    #135339

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Carolin Lim:

    I read all your recent posts: you read like an intelligent, thoughtful, gracious woman, answering all respondents in such detail and attention to all that was suggested to you. Quite impressive and far from the norm.

    I understand your point to me, that in your original post, you inserted into the telling of the beginning of the account what you knew only after the beginning. There is no way I know to edit the original post after this much time, and I don’t think it is necessary. It is very difficult to tell a story without later understandings and interpretations.

    You wrote: “I’ve witnessed more lies than I think I should in a supposedly healthy married couple. What do you think?”

    And this is what I think: Too many lies, too many fabrications. There are people, and he is one of them, whose verbal output is a MIX of truths and lies (untrue statements they KNOW are untrue, as opposed to delusions). When the number of true statements the number of lies in a person’s output is about equal, and there are a lot of these two kinds of statements, it is impossible, at one point on, to keep track of what was true and what was a lie.

    It is like you are given a cake which is a mix of chocolate (the truth) and mud (lies). If there was one piece of mud in the whole cake, then maybe you can choose to remove that one piece and eat the rest of the cake. But if the cake has a lot of chocolate and a lot of mud all through the cake, removing the mud is impossible, not effective, will take a lot of time and you will be tasting a lot of mud.

    He is like a chocolate-and-mud cake. You have to throw it away if you don’t want to eat mud.

    And so, it will be too much of a headache for me to try, here, to figure him out.

    You wrote: “When I asked him why he didn’t marry the supermodel girl,,, he answered with just: ‘No. I just don’t.’,,,
    Then when I asked the same thing to the supermodel girl, she said that ‘….”

    When you confronted him with his story (chocolate and mud), he didn’t have an answer because he didn’t have a way at the time to present to you a reconciliation between his true and false statements. So he said nothing.

    When you asked her, the “supermodel girl”- you asked a woman, it reads to me, who doesn’t know the difference between chocolate and mud. She has been eating both, not knowing the difference. She probably makes-believe the mud is chocolate. I followed what she said with “…” because what she says has no relevance to the truth.

    When people are presented with too many lies, they fill in the gaps, the contradictions, with their own cognitive creativity. And so, it is of no relevance to me, looking for the truth.

    And, of course, you (or I, or anyone) has no chance to help in the healing of a person who knowingly lies so much.

    Regarding his wife: if you are considering telling her, maybe find out more about her in the process of figuring IF it is a good idea to tell her. If you have the opportunity to talk to her, in a book store, maybe, ask her what she thinks about infidelity, maybe as a topic in one of the books you both read. You can find out, maybe, if she already knows or suspects but is heavily invested in turning a blind eye to it.

    Hope you post again (and I appreciate your Update note to me some time ago. I answered it when I discovered it).

    anita

    #135519

    Carolin
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I appreciate it. I’m still striving to become said woman, however I’m happy that you actually see that in me. I have quite learned a lot from you; I respect the way you think and the way you break it down through words, writing in such fashion so as to make it easier to be understood by others, especially those who are in need of perhaps easy answers and quick resolutions, as well as a way to show you cared + respected them.

    Your first paragraph made me smile, and as I read down the rest, I couldn’t help but nod with every paragraph.

    I had been feeling the slightest pint of uneasiness ever since he told me his first few stories; how he sounded very lucky yet unlucky at the same time, how he said that he was very open to criticism yet would immediately fight anyone who gave it to him, and how he seemed to rely on praises to LIVE but would also keep saying that he was unworthy of them in (what I thought at the moment was) a humble manner. Overtime, the uneasy feeling grew worse.

    For me, this statement of yours:
    “There are people, and he is one of them, whose verbal output is a MIX of truths and lies.”
    has finally confirmed and explained that uneasy feeling I have towards him.

    Having chocolate-mud-cake as an analogy is very clever – it certainly helped lighten up some more pathways in my mind. I will quote several sentences you’ve written after, that strikes me the strongest:

    “He didn’t have an answer because he didn’t have a way at the time to present to you a reconciliation between his true and false statements.”
    “You asked a woman, it reads to me, who doesn’t know the difference between chocolate and mud. She has been eating both, not knowing the difference. She probably makes-believe the mud is chocolate.”
    “When people are presented with too many lies, they fill in the gaps, the contradictions, with their own cognitive creativity. And so, it is of no relevance to me, looking for the truth.”

    I agree. (x3)
    There are times when he ‘slipped’ while trying to find reconciliation between his true and false statements. The amount of time he ‘slipped’ increased significantly after about 4 months into the relationship, given that his interest in my critical thinking had also decreased. Often, he would simply point that my questions were ignorant, that I “could never understand him”, so that he could successfully avoid the question and save him energy that was needed to make the next chocolate-mud-cake mix.

    There are times when I am also led to believe that once he had gotten hold of a woman long enough, he would feel like he already has her caged, uncapable and unwilling to go elsewhere under his pressuring ‘love’. If she ever tries to leave, he will immediately rage and began to take his past pains and dump it all over her, even if it had nothing to do with her.
    The “supermodel girl”, I believe, has fallen to said cage, and just like you said, “makes-believe the mud is chocolate.” At one point, I tried to poke a bit of sense into her through indicative questions, but I later found out the brainwash was irreversible.

    “You (or I, or anyone) has no chance to help in the healing of a person who knowingly lies so much.”
    I have finally come to accept this. But then, do you think there is any way, any chance for such stubborn person to change his own self for the better without anyone’s help?

    …my fogged mind is now becoming significantly clearer. I feel refreshed.
    I guess what I have been craving all along is a definite confirmation to validate my own feelings. I had my feelings and thoughts shot down so many times by him that I almost could not believe if someone ever sees me valid.

    Anita, thanks again for your reply~
    I appreciate your specific advice. I will keep this in mind in my process of figuring whether it’s a good idea to tell his wife or not. I will very likely try inquiring her thoughts first regarding the matter in the way you suggested.

    I have said this in my update note to you but I will say it again: you don’t know how great of an impact your writings have made on me.

    #135533

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Carolin Lim:

    You are welcome, anytime. it is a pleasure communicating with you.

    Regarding your question: “do you think there is any way, any chance for such stubborn person to change his own self for the better without anyone’s help?”- extremely small chance. Maybe as a result of a brain injury (I am not joking). Very, very unlikely. He lies to every person in his life, doesn’t he? And has done so for many years. This is a mental habit deeply rooted, and it benefits him. There is the habit, and the payoff. What would be his motivation to invest the massive amounts of time and hard work that are required to slowly weaken these mental habits, resist his compulsions to lie, manipulate and misuse people?

    When he loses one person (you), he is not going to change so to win you back- set his life straight, do right by everyone he harmed, come clean with everyone- no, he is going to “win” another woman instead, and still, another. He will make up for the loss of you.

    And so it goes…

    anita

    #293811

    Carolin
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “When he loses one person (you), he is not going to change so to win you back- set his life straight, do right by everyone he harmed, come clean with everyone- no, he is going to “win” another woman instead, and still, another. He will make up for the loss of you.”

    Sadly that is the truth. It’s apparent to me now that the responsibility does not lie within me or the other women. If he has no will to change, he will stay the way he is, and I have had quite enough of him blaming others for his own infidelity, for his own lack of morals.

    Over time I’ve learned to treat this kind of problem as a land mine; not really serving any positive purpose other than reflecting on your own sense of awareness. It may look tempting at its best, but it’s not going to do anyone any good in the long run. I’m happy to say I’ve known better during my hiatus, and while I’m actively avoiding such problems now, shall there be anyone with a similar problem like me, I hope they can find the responses to my original post as helpful as it was to me. With this, I would like to thank Inky, Anita and Elisabeth for their insightful responses to my otherwise boring thread.

    I will post an update to how things have turned out for the better, now that I have removed myself from the environment.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Carolin.
    #293867

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Carolin:

    I am glad you are back!

    I re-read our communication, a fascinating one and if you are interested, I would  like to continue. I am looking forward to your update. I wonder about the nature of your relationship with this man since our March 2017 communication, what you mean by being removed from that environment.

    anita

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  anita.
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