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Dear Jason:
“At what point do red flags outweigh the green flags?”- for me, that point has already passed.
“Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more about what you think are half truths and half lies here? And what would be her motivation to do so?”-
When a person gives you a mix of truths, half truths and lies, there is no point in trying to figure out which is which. One way to figure it out would be to hire a private detective to do the difficult work of investigating so to find out the truth and expose the lies. As I read your original post I could tell some of what she said was not true but I didn’t bother to try and figure it out because it is hard work and there is no benefit for me in doing that hard work.
Her motivation: she enjoys talking to you and telling you stories. It makes her feel good. The motivation: to feel good.
One more thing: neither she nor her boyfriend are healthy people. Most of the time, it is not one partner that is the sole abuser: both abuse each other. It is common for the woman to complain a lot about her boyfriend while she is way more abusive to him than he is to her.
Talking about motivations: what is your motivation in listening to her and being her friend?
anita
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This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by .
Dear Jason:
You are welcome. I would like to re-read your original post and the rest of your posts tomorrow morning when I am more focused than I am now and reply to you further then (in about 12 hours from now).
For now I have this input regarding your recent post: I asked you regarding your motivation not as a rhetorical question. It crossed my mind that your motivation might be a romantic interest in her. I am glad that you are not interested in her this way/ hope that you are not, for your sake.
I think that the more you listen to her drama, the more drama she produces (at least in her story telling) so to.. entertain herself and her audience: you. But most importantly, the more you listen to her, the more you get a bad taste in your mouth, or more accurately: in your brain.
I am sure she was traumatized/ abused before you met her and dated her ten years ago, but currently she may be abusing another, as is the nature of abuse: the abused proceed to abuse.
If you would like, you can look up histrionic personality disorder. I have no idea if she suffers from that disorder, but you may have a better idea of this is a possibility. You are welcome to post again before I return.
anita
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This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by .
Hi Anita, thank you again for taking the time and effort to share your thoughts about his. It’s really appreciated. You already provided a lot of new insight and it really helps me understand things better. It’s so helpful to hear someone else’s take on this. I notice that this situation consumes quite a bit of my attention because I can’t come to any ‘conclusion’ as to what to think, and I feel I can’t really shrug my shoulders and turn around since there’s a big element of being worried for someone’s wellbeing or safety.
As for your suggestion she might suffer from histrionic personality disorder; although she shows some of the characteristics, she definitely isn’t the type who likes to be the centre of attention. Nor would she show exhibitionistic or provocative behaviour or act theatrical. Quite the opposite actually. I would describe her more as shy, insecure, nervous, anxious, doubtful, a bit naif, sarcastic, definitely not seeking any spotlight. She’s beautiful but doesn’t see herself that way. I am by no means qualified to make any psychological diagnose, but for me she fits more in the borderline spectrum, minus the promiscuity and substance abuse. But the fear of abandonment, unstable emotions, mood swings, splitting black and white, low self esteem, insomnia, depression, yes they are there. I do know that BPD has a lot of overlap with complex PTSD and that actually feels very typical for her, considering her traumatised past (loss of one parent, abandoned by the other, loss of brother, chaotic lifestyle in different countries, history of abuse.)
I would like to add that she is 12 years younger than I am. She’s now in her mid 30s. I stayed friends with her, more like in a big brother kind of way. Someone she trusts and who knows her history and she can ask for advice. She doesn’t have a lot of close friends, and the few ones she has live abroad. We haven’t seen each other face to face in 8 years, all our contact is mostly text and the occasional phone call.
Maybe it helps to give a but more detail how and why I am worried / confused about her situation.
So 5 years ago she lives in a small town, he lives in a village close to that small town. They get into a relationship, he moves in with her. They live together for two years. Her big wish is to marry and have kids. He wants her to move to his village, where all his relatives live, so they can have a nice big house and start their own family. She however wants to live in the big city. (And knowing her, I agree with she’s more of a city girl and I always thought that little town was too small for her) They fight about how they see things so differently and “other things aren’t great between them either” (her words) so she breaks up with him and moves to a tiny apartment in the big city (which is 5 hour drive away). According to her he then convinces himself it could be ok in the big city then, after he realised she wasn’t coming back, nor was she going to live in his village. She says he kinda accepts the new reality but she can see he’s hoping one day she would change her mind.
Then after a few months she starts complaining that he’s not really moving in with her, only stays with her half of the week sometimes (understandable I think as his job is still in his village 5 hours from the city) and that when they are together they argue a lot and he stopped showing her affection (no sex anymore), despite him saying he still loves her. That this behaviour is making her feel rejected, insecure. That she feels like the last woman in the world, absolutely unattractive, and she blames herself for it. That he sometimes stays in a hotel because they argue too much and she refuses to stay with him. That It’ll take time to feel differently and she’s now so insecure it even changed the way she keeps herself with other people. That she generally tends to criticise herself a lot and with others people help, people that mean something to her, it’s really like 1,2,3 to destroy her self esteem. That it’s really hard to rebuild anything and everything else wasn’t that great at times too, so for her it’s over no matter how hard he tries. That they live like brother and sister, but he won’t let her go. That she calls him her ex, he keeps calling her his girlfriend. That they just can’t stay together, she’s constantly mad with him and maybe it’s her who’s a problem.
Now this is the point where I’m getting a bit of a stalky feeling with this guy. Especially in combination with her saying he’s making her feel insecure and destroying her self esteem?
They continue for another year like this, probably on again/ off again style. This is where she starts to sometimes hint at us meeting again or she starts flirting a bit. Reminiscing our good times way back and she could use some ‘me time /fun time’ and have a fun weekend together somewhere. Twice I said ‘ok let’s do that’ but as always that conversation wouldn’t go anywhere because in the end she’d still be back with him.
Until, like I said, recently she tells me it’s really over now and she actually started dating other guys again. That she finally told him it just really wasn’t going to happen between them, whatever they had planned in their future together. She seemed relieved. Of course she also threw in another ‘hey we should go somewhere nice for a weekend’. But before that even takes any shape, here come the stories about the ex again:
– that he still has the keys to her house and sometimes comes inside her house when she’s at work to ‘check if there’s still pictures of them’ and he would leave her a written message how much he loves her.
– that he sent her flowers
– that he took her to the airport
– that his mother is ill and she feels obliged to ask him about it.
– that she feels she can’t be bitchy to him after all he did for her.
– that she feels ‘afraid’ to slip back into the relationship again, because this is how it always goes: he just keeps acting like they are still together
– that he asked her to stay with her in her house for one month because of a job in her city and that she feels like she can’t refuse it because he still pays part of her rent.I call her naif that she’s letting all this happen. And if she really wants it to be over she should at least ask her keys back? And maybe not let him move in again because of some BS excuse of a new job? I ask her if she really doesn’t see how he is weaselling his way back to her? But she doesn’t really respond and it even almost feels like she understands him, because that’s how it always goes. Like it’s almost cute what he does.
Now.. what am I witnessing here? A cunning woman playing a minstrel in distress? Or a traumatised girl fallen victim to another manipulative / narcissistic abuser who can’t take no for an answer and beats her up and then love-bombs his way back over and over again?
Did they ever actually really break up at all? Or did that only happen inside her head, was she just saying that to her friends, and for him they are still together all this time? Would she make up his manipulative actions so it would justify her going back (to the outside world), while in fact they were still together all the time? To not have to admit that they never actually broke up?
After 3 years of watching her going through the same cycle again and again I’m starting to get worried and curious how others would read this.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.
Hi Inky, thanks for your reply.
I hear what you’re saying.
It’s like they are an older married couple: no sex, separate domiciles, shared keys, calling for favors. Are they even separated at all?
She is in her mid-thirties. Instead of being happily married with children she is bored to tears.
I agree, this is not the lifestyle she wants at all. She wants to get married and have kids, just not the way he wants it: in his rural village with is countryside relatives far from any city-life excitement and services. And yes it is like they’re an older married couple. However, she made a power move to break up and move to the city, find a job etc, alone. You would indeed think that a sign she’s also strong enough “to get it through his head that it’s really over”. I would expect that from her too.
Then why on earth would she continue to stay in an on again / off again relationship with him for YEARS, while the quality of the relationship is spiralling down to the point where they only argue and live like brother and sister and are together only half of the week sometimes? While her great wish is to build up something new and get married and have kids in the city?
And STILL then, when she manages to eventually end it with him and finally goes out on some dates with guys in the city, he’s able to love-bomb her back to shitty ‘older married couple’ style relationship? Why would she stay in something like that when he also makes her feel miserable / insecure / worthless? Is that because she really really loves this guy? Then why doesn’t she move to his village and have kids if he’s her big love and having a family is her biggest wish in life? Why cling to this idea of living in a tiny apartment when her big love is waiting for her in a big house to have her kids?
BTW I’m not sure he pays half of the rent, I think he helped her pay the deposit when she got the apartment or something.
As for dropping the rope: so far (the past 3 years) I have always shrugged and continued minding my own business when she appeared to be back with him for the 100th time. Her life, her choice, her decision, whatever. Couldn’t really be bothered. Just was there for her as a friend. But after 100 times thinking ‘ok whatever’, the 101th time I’m just starting to ask myself if maybe something’s not right. Things just don’t add up and all of a sudden I’m worried she might be in a bad place when you put all the 1 + 1 + 1 together.
Or I might be seeing ghosts and this is chaos is just what she enjoys, who knows. Therefor it’s nice to hear some opinions from others, like yours, and it’s appreciated.
Looking forward to hearing additional thoughts you might have.
Dear Jason:
This woman is now in her mid thirties (single, in an on-again-off-again relationship), and you are in your later forties, 12 years older than her (single or married, I don’t know). Ten years ago, she was in her mid twenties, and the two of you dated. You learned of “her traumatized past(loss of one parent, abandoned by the other, loss of a brother, chaotic lifestyle in different countries, history of abuse”, and you observed “how traumatized she was from the abusive relationship she was in before we met”. You thought of her as “a good person with a lot of baggage”.
Some time after you dated her, either you or her moved to a different country. “We haven’t seen each other face to face in 8 years, all our contact is mostly text and the occasional phone call”.
About five years after you dated her, she entered a relationship with another man . At some point they lived together for two years. “The first two years they seemed ok”. The three years that followed consisted of breaking up and getting back together multiple times.
During the five years of her on-again-of-again relationship, the two of you text and occasionally talk on the phone. From time to time she suggests meeting you for some fun: “when she’s feeling low she sometimes hints at us meeting again, because when we were together it was ‘always fun’… or she starts flirting a bit. Reminiscing our good times way back and she could use some ‘me time/fun time’ and have a fun weekend together somewhere… she also threw in another ‘hey we should go somewhere nice for a weekend”.
To her suggestions to have a fun, romantic, sexual weekend together (which is how I understand her suggestions), you reacted this way: “Twice I said ‘ok let’s do that’ but as always that conversation wouldn’t go anywhere because in the end she’d still be back with him… before that even takes any shape, here come the stories about her ex again”.
You partly view her as naïve, and boyfriend as a weasel: “I call her naïve that she’s letting all this happen… I ask her if she really doesn’t see how he is weaseling his way back to her?”.
* It is clear to me that throughout some if not all of your communication with her over the five years of her relationship with her boyfriend, you have felt a romantic and/ or sexual interest in her, and she sensed that this has been part of your motivation to being in touch with her, listening to her and giving her advice.
I put together all that she said to you and read through it all. I see no evidence whatsoever of him abusing her in any way. I see that he has been pursuing her all along and she has been the one doing the rejecting, again and again and yet again.
This is how serious he has been about her: “He wants me to move to his village, where his relatives live, so that we can have a nice big house and start our own family. I however want to live in the big city”.
“He just won’t let me go. For me, it’s over no matter how hard he tries. I call him my ex; he keeps calling me his girlfriend. We broke up this time and I actually started dating other guys. Like always he just keeps acting like we are still together”- she is enjoying having power over him, enjoying that he needs her more than she needs him, that he is willing to do anything and everything for her. Notice: she dated other guys but he didn’t date other girls: for him.. she is the only girl.
“He still has the keys to my house and sometimes he comes inside my house when I am at work to check if there’s still pictures of us on the wall, and he would leave notes for me. He came into my house while I was at work and left flowers. He brought me flowers and gave me a ride to the airport, which was actually handy. I can’t be rude to him after all he did for me..he still pays part of my rent”- he pursues her hard; he is very invested in her, like she said, he won’t let go of her.
“I am back with him. I want to give another chance to the person that has been therefor me the past five years in all the good and bad times. I broke up with him and moved to a tiny apartment in the big city. He then convinces himself it could be ok in the big city then, after he realized I wasn’t coming back, nor was I going to live in his village. He kinda accepts the new reality but I can see he’s hoping one day I would change my mind”- he was with her in “all the good and bad times”. He wants her to move to his village, but he wants her so much that he convinced himself that he will be okay living in the big city, as long as he can be with her, hoping that she will change her mind and live with him in his village.
“He sometimes stays in a hotel because we argue too much and I refuse to stay with him“- she is refusing to stay with him, not the other way around.
“I feel I can’t be bitchy to him after all he did for me”- but she was okay being bitchy with him before he did all that he did for her.. ?
“He doesn’t show me any physical affection anymore, despite saying that he still loves me: this makes me feel insecure, unattractive and rejected. I already have low self esteem, and it even changes he way I hold myself around other people. I feel that I am to blame for it. I don’t understand why he wouldn’t just let me go if he wouldn’t even sleep with me. I feel like the last woman in the world, absolutely unattractive”- I very much doubt this is true: he is too crazy about her to not show her affection and to not have sex with her.
In summary: Unlike your evaluation of her being naïve and him being a weasel, I think that he is crazy about her, following around, wanting to live with her happily ever after, and she is the one toying with him, pushing him out of her life and taking him back in, enjoying exercising power over him and against him: she is the one abusing him, not the other way around.
anita
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This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by .
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This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by
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