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  • #421867
    Ben
    Participant

    My second thread here, I posted a long time ago about another silly relationship, but this is a nice safe space to share.

    I’m not sure exactly what I want to hear by posting this, I have accepted that this relationship has reached a “terminus” of sorts. I suppose i’m writing to help me organize my thoughts and feelings the same way as last time, perhaps a bit wiser.

    In 2018 I was living abroad in Brazil and, while travelling with colleagues from my work, met a guy who was a friend of a colleague. They had met to exchange languages online, and by a fluke we all ended up there. At this point, I noticed him and he merely “caught my eye” – I was attracted to him, perhaps quite strongly, but he was of course interested in my colleague and I was not the one there to meet him. He was deeply into history, old things, old music, and showed me all his old books with great enthusiasm, including a shared interest in old coins etc. I was shy around him, and could only laugh when he spoke to me. My colleague, meanwhile, was talking down about him to me in English (which he didn’t/doesn’t understand), and was really only into sex with this guy.

    We were there 2 days and 3 nights, I felt a slight pang in my chest to leave, but accepted without hesitation that most likely I would never see him again, so I didn’t think much of it. He sent me a Happy Easter message and I replied, then we more or less didn’t say anything more than exchanging likes on social media for about 3 and half years.

    In the second half of 2021, I decided I was going to visit Brazil again, and do a big trip, to get over covid and tick off all the places I hadn’t had time to visit when I was working there. I posted a story on instagram, and who should message me but this guy again? I think I had never stopped having a bit of a thing for him, always a flutter in the chest when he liked a post of mine, but I had never made any attempt to talk to him. He said, as many people from his country do, “Come visit me”, still in the same town I had met him over 3 years before. My heart fluttered again at the thought of just me and him spending time together, we could talk about so many things without my colleagues in the way, and I spoke his language so much better.

    It took me a long time to book everything, and when mentioning it to him again, he said he was now living in a different city with a boyfriend. Oh, gosh! But, it was easy to accept, I was merely someone he’d met for 2 days over three years ago! He had moved to a city in the northeast that was already on my itinerary, a perfect combo!

    So, the trip comes along in early 2022, I visited many places before and eventually I meet him in his city. I am there Monday to Sunday, and he is working but there is a public holiday on Friday so a long weekend. On the Thursday night we arrange to meet, and I, in a way, fall for him again, with no breath, nervous and anxious in his presence. He seems his usual self, again with a sort of lingering glance, or perhaps my imagination. (I have learned previously not to “over-interpret” anything), and I have exactly zero expectations as, after all, he has a boyfriend.

    We meet that Thursday night, just the two of us, and have some beers by the beach, then walk along it. He says let’s go swimming, and I accept, on this moonlight night. Oh dear! How intense. I can’t stop laughing because I almost can’t believe he is proposing this. We leave our clothes on the beach and walk in, and I try my best to enjoy the moment. He smiles cheekily and shows he’s taken his underwear off, and then soon we’re both skinny dipping in the moonlight! A lot of my body wants to move closer to him but I try to occupy myself, because he has a boyfriend and I don’t want to complicate things. I meet his boyfriend the next day, we all go to the beach and hang out for the long weekend. A nice experience over all. I leave on Sunday and i’m off to the next city.

    We talk infrequently for a while, I send pictures of old things every now and then, as does he. In October 2022, he sends me a message, he’s moving to Argentina, without his boyfriend, to study medicine. Oh! Without the boyfriend? And to study medicine? That’s a long time for a long distance relationship! The boyfriend is paying for it all too! Goodness, lucky him. He says it’s the next place I’ll visit him. I have always wanted to see Buenos Aires, and now I have a good opportunity to do so and meet him again and spend time together.

    He decides we should have “teas” together, a nice little video call talking about things (I am English, so he insists we have tea). These become more frequent. He moves to Argentina in January 2023. We talk more and more frequently, reminiscing about the two times we’d met and how it would be nice to spend time together without him working or me having to leave quickly. He mentions the relationship with his boyfriend is plagued by arguments, fights and a lack of trust, and how his boyfriend is very possessive even when they are living together. I sympathize a little, my relationship with another guy, though not as committed, is also a little topsy-turvy.

    As we reminisce, we mention that colleague he knew, they’ve fallen out of touch. One night he says “maybe it could have been you instead!”, half-jokingly. My heart pounds but I try to play it cool, he has a boyfriend! However, we both, slowly but surely, end up climbing up this path together, inching step by step into flirting and more. He says when he graduates he wants to move to England etc. Again, I try to remember the reality of the situation and joke about it without really taking all of this seriously.

    I book my visit for April into May 2023. I arrive and see his face again, and it’s all weird again, a feeling of totally not wanting to make a move but desperately wanting to. He’s already said we have to share a bed, which I “begrudgingly” accepted. We make out a bit on the first night and I feel great to finally kiss him and feel his body after so long. I could go home and be satisfied.

    We spend a lot of time together, it’s his break from studying, hang out etc and talk about everything. His family history, his physically abusive father who beat him everyday, how that colleague was a bit of an ass with him. He always wants to spend time with me, and nothing is ever done separately.

    One night he says “I think I love you”. I scoff and think it’s his Latin silliness. Who knows?! I can’t win everything can I. I decide to wait and see if he really means it. We continue what I suppose is this affair, slowly getting more intimate and the worst of all, making plans together. He can’t leave his boyfriend as he is financially dependent on him and he has very little other resources. I say I can go back to England and get a job to save money and come join him. He refuses and says I shouldn’t have to pay to be with him. I say “well, maybe after all, we’re just like ships passing in the night” (Which I know isn’t exactly the right phrase), but I try to accept it as that, but he doesn’t want to accept it and says we can still make plans, just after he has graduated (5 or 6 years in the future?!).

    Towards the end of the trip however, I remain besotted and he buys a ring for me (not for marriage, but as commitment, something they do in Brazil). The one his boyfriend bought him has been left in a jewelry box since I’ve gotten there. The picture of them together is put in the cupboard, replaced by the UK flag he asked me to buy. He still has calls with the boyfriend but grudgingly and always complains about him afterwards. I get annoyed about this sometimes but I accept neither he or I have a choice, I cannot demand anything and he would have to give up a course he’s dreamt of his whole life, which I don’t really feel ready to do.

    One day I walk out of the apartment because he was on the phone with his boyfriend, and when I return he is crying, crestfallen, begging me to stay and not to leave him again. I don’t push him to leave his boyfriend and I don’t know why, perhaps as I don’t feel he owes me anything and I am just happy to be with him.

    The trip comes to an end. But between me and him, it does not. I leave hardly believing I got to kiss and make love to someone who, trite as it is “took my breath away”. I wear his ring all the flight back, trying to think about him. I get a job I had applied for when I was out there and weirdly it seems like it all makes sense, that I will earn money, save money and support him so that he can leave his boyfriend. I amaze myself at my commitment to this, no one has stirred up such resolve within me before. We videocall everyday, the plans continue, are re-affirmed. He plans to visit and spend 2 months here in his holidays to meet my family. He makes a point of showing me his ring he bought with me, always on his necklace.

    I feel like the centre of his world, if I don’t reply he asks for me, he gets upset when I don’t call, as I do with him. He gets jealous when I go to parties and don’t message him. He desires me. But, his boyfriend lingers in the distance. I try not to force the topic, but he gets very defensive when I ask what their relationship is now, “didn’t you cheat on him?” “aren’t you just staying with him now because he is paying for you?” – this one he takes great offence at, but I feel it’s a reasonable, if not very nice, explanation. In my head the questions would help him understand that there’s nothing wrong with leaving him now. We all make silly choices and end up in even sillier situations. But he is adamant that he will end it with his boyfriend and be mine.

    His boyfriend announces he will visit him. I naturally feel this is a bit too much to simply “let” happen and that he needs to break up with him. He says he will do it while he’s visiting as that’s “kinder”.  I tell him if he wants to prove all his beautiful words right, he has an opportunity to prove them so now. I start to realise he won’t, as that’s a pretty horrible thing to do to someone, even in a toxic relationship. I call him, he says he is confused and doesn’t know why he can’t break up with his boyfriend, if it is guilt, pity. He says loving me is easy but he doesn’t know how he feels about his boyfriend. He says cries about at night in the shower, the only time he is alone without his boyfriend watching him. I tell him he can only love me or him. He calls back the next day and says he can’t do it, and shouldn’t have said all of that if he wasn’t prepared to finally break up. “What will we do now?” he asks. I don’t know.

    He drifts away in the second week of his boyfriend’s visit. We have one call after the boyfriend’s trip is over. I ask him if he still loves me, he looks at me a minute and says yes. I don’t know why I asked. The next day I ask him what he really wants, should I wait for him? “My relationship was deeper than I thought” he says. “The end of a chapter but our book is still open, life is a pandoras box”. I don’t know what that means. Our conversations start to die quickly. I know I still love him.

    I don’t know how to feel. A love that never was ? A love that struck at the wrong time? A mere fling? A romance? I don’t know if I was a real sucker there or it was simply wrong time wrong place. Gosh ! A part of me still wants some far off possibility that maybe one day he will be available and I can love him. Another part is truly, deeply sad and feels an enormous loss.

    #421888
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Ben

    I’m sorry to hear about the break up. It must be difficult dealing with such a loss.

    I think you knew the risks going into the relationship since he was dating someone else throughout.

    This relationship might not have had a future. But you chose to enjoy it anyway. It sounds like you had some wonderful times. It hurts to lose the relationship, but it was the inevitable conclusion. All you can really do is cherish the memories and perhaps consider a more stable relationship in the future if that is what you want.

    What do you think drew you to a relationship with a person that was unavailable?

    Wishing you all the best! 🙏

    #421889
    Ben
    Participant

    Thanks for replying.

    I guess the part of me that liked him since the start, wanted to be near him and be with him and around him.

    I know in any other case I would have simply not even considered it an option because he was already with someone. But with him, gosh, I was so ready when he opened up and so ready to accept it all.

    I don’t even know if it was a part of me that lead me to this. I was telling myself all the time it was silly. Maybe it was simply my feelings for him that drew me in.

    #421922
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    Your first thread- where we communicated extensively over 7 pages)- almost five years ago, was about the same guy you shared about in this thread. Back on Oct 10, 2018, you started your thread with: “I had a long term relationship with a lovely guy. But various issues, relational, geographical, visa-related etc. kept us apart. To a certain extent maturity did too, and a fear of committing. We had met just a couple times, but had strong feelings that were more than just ‘a fling’ or a ‘short-time’ thing”.

    As I read your original post almost five years later, the first words that came to my mind were something like.. what a lovely love story. Later the term limerence and limerent object replaced my first thought.

    Limerence, dictionary: “The state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one’s feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.”

    From Wikipedia, on Limerence: “an involuntary potentially inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object (LO) involving intrusive and obsessive thoughts, feelings and behaviors from euphoria to despair, contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation”.

    What do you think about the term in regard to what this guy means to you?

    anita

    #421923
    Ben
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Hi Anita</p>
    This is about a totally different guy actually! That thread was the first, whom I’d met in 2013 originally. This guy I met in 2018, a totally different story!

    #421924
    Ben
    Participant

    In fact I haven’t even talked to the guy from that other thread since I wrote the last posts on it! (Which I hope is progress)

    #421925
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    Oh, a different guy then. Are you familiar with the term limerence, and do you think that the topic of limerence vs love, which I brought up above, applies to you in regard to your romantic relationships, most recent and prior?

    anita

    #421926
    Ben
    Participant

    I’d apply it to that first guy, the obssesion and swings from love and happiness to despair and desparation.

    But, with this second one, I’m less sure.  I’m not really obsessed with him, nor was I. I liked him but I didn’t live my life according to him, nor did I when we were closer, nor now. Now, if anything I’m just upset and feel a bit stupid and hurt. It was reciprocated, as much as it could be. I never chased him or had to bargain with him for attention.

    #421932
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    I want to understand the story of your relationship with this guy better, so I will re-read your original post and retell your story with quotes and my personal thoughts about your story (it helps me process information when I do that): back in 2018, five years ago, in Brazil, in the duration of two days, this guy caught your eye. You were attracted to him. “He was deeply into history, old things, old music, and showed me all his old books with great enthusiasm…  I was shy around him“- he was expressive, extroverted perhaps, enthusiastic; you were introverted, shy. Extroversion/ emotional expressiveness can be very attractive to the introverted/ emotionally suppressive.

    Away from Brazil, back in England, for 3 years “I had never stopped having a bit of a thing for him, always a flutter in the chest when he liked a post of mine“.

    Back to Brazil in 2022, you met him a second time on a Thursday night, just the two of you by the beach: “I, in a way, fall for him again, with no breath, nervous and anxious in his presence“. The two of you took off all your clothes and walked into the water, “skinny dipping in the moonlight!” (this description is made for a movie). You met his boyfriend the next day, and the visit ended on Sunday.

    You keep in touch with him long-distance, having “‘teas’ together, a nice little video call talking about things… He mentions the relationship with his boyfriend is plagued by arguments, fights and a lack of trust… I sympathize a little, my relationship with another guy, though not as committed, is also a little topsy-turvy“. He flirts with you long-distance, and you booked a trip to Brazil to see him, in-person- a 3rd time.

    The 3rd visit takes place in May 2023: “We make out a bit on the first night and I feel great to finally kiss him and feel his body after so long. I could go home and be satisfied“- not expecting.. or wanting more, not only because he has a boyfriend (I am thinking) but perhaps because it is easier this way: to not be involved in a serious, ongoing, real-life relationship. Something lovely and of a short, trouble-free duration has its advantages.

    We spend a lot of time together… and talk about everything…  One night he says ‘I think I love you’… We continue… slowly getting more intimate and the worst of all, making plans together“- worst of all because plans will complicate and spoil this easy, simple love story?

    I say ‘well, maybe after all, we’re just like ships passing in the night’“- two ships that passed each other in the night, watching the physical distance grow and grow, are not going to collide and go under.

    One day I walk out of the apartment because he was on the phone with his boyfriend, and when I return he is crying, crestfallen, begging me to stay and not to leave him again. I don’t push him to leave his boyfriend and I don’t know why, perhaps as I don’t feel he owes me anything and I am just happy to be with him“- perhaps the why is fear of a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship.

    The trip comes to an end… I get a job I had applied for when I was out there and weirdly it seems like it all makes sense, that I will earn money, save money and support him so that he can leave his boyfriend. I amaze myself at my commitment to this, no one has stirred up such resolve within me before“- this is the climactic point of the story as I read it: your move toward making this relationship an ongoing, committed real-life relationship.

    We videocall everyday, the plans continue, are re-affirmed. He plans to visit and spend 2 months here in his holidays to meet my family… His boyfriend announces he will visit him. I naturally feel this is a bit too much to simply ‘let’ happen and that he needs to break up with him. He says he will do it while he’s visiting as that’s ‘kinder’.  I tell him if he wants to prove all his beautiful words right, he has an opportunity to prove them so now“- this is you, the shy guy, fighting for a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship with him. I am impressed and moved.

    I start to realise he won’t… I call him, he says he is confused and doesn’t know why he can’t break up with his boyfriend… He says loving me is easy“- easy for as long as it is.. not a difficult, real-life, ongoing, committed relationship.

    I tell him he can only love me or him. He calls back the next day and says he can’t do it, and shouldn’t have said all of that if he wasn’t prepared to finally break up“- you fought for a relationship with him. You lost, but not without trying.

    I don’t know how to feel. A love that never was? A love that struck at the wrong time? A mere fling? A romance? I don’t know if I was a real sucker there or it was simply wrong time wrong place. Gosh ! A part of me still wants some far off possibility that maybe one day he will be available and I can love him. Another part is truly, deeply sad and feels an enormous loss.“-

    – first, I am sorry for your loss. I wish that this story was different: that he was not involved with another man, at least not after you and him got romantically and sexually involved, and I wished this would have turned into a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship between the two of you. I think that it was a beginning of a love story, but only a beginning, sort of, like a tease of a love story, a taste of it.

    What do you think about my understanding here, as it developed? (please take your time to answer this question, if you choose to answer it, of course).

    anita

     

    #421938
    Ben
    Participant

    “he was expressive, extroverted perhaps, enthusiastic; you were introverted, shy. Extroversion/ emotional expressiveness can be very attractive to the introverted/ emotionally suppressive” – Yeah, I agree on that front. Usually I find myself intimidated slightly by people like this, but with him it was a major plus point.

    “not expecting.. or wanting more, not only because he has a boyfriend (I am thinking) but perhaps because it is easier this way: to not be involved in a serious, ongoing, real-life relationship. Something lovely and of a short, trouble-free duration has its advantages” – 

    Yeah, that was my “intention” of sorts. I guess there’s two points here. It seemed like neither of us intended for it to go anywhere extreme initially, it was so gradual when we started talking regularly, a flirt here and there. By the time I was going to arrive it was set up for some making out/love-making etc and nothing more, explicitly. I arrived there with zero expectations. Even if we had just been close friends, I would have been happy. But when we were together, just us, it seemed to develop into something else so quickly.

    The other was that I never felt he had any obligation towards me (at least before we became a bit more inter-twined), I was happy with whatever attention he decided to give me, I felt happy just to be in his presence, even that evening together was enough and in a way it could have stopped there and i’d have had a magical memory. Later on he said that on that night he had wanted to kiss me and even make love (my hotel was close to the beach) but I was being “Polite” and not forcing anything (especially as I was going to meet his boyfriend the next day!).

    “worst of all because plans will complicate and spoil this easy, simple love story?” – Most definitely, at least looking at it in retrospective. At the time, they seemed so real and possible, I couldn’t even imagine a world where they didn’t come true. He seemed the same. He was learning English phrases by himself, watching things in English, trying to learn them. Even with the visit he was going to make here he said “do you think your parents will like me?” and was asking about what my family liked so he would get on well with them while he was here and I was at work. We named our children, created a joint surname, planned where we would go on holidays.

    “two ships that passed each other in the night, watching the physical distance grow and grow, are not going to collide and go under” For sure. This does indeed make sense. I think here, another point confuses me. The week before his boyfriend visited, I went on holiday by myself to France for a week (this is now 3 or 4 weeks ago). He was upset I was going by myself, and said “but what if you meet a French guy who is better than me? closer than me?” – this after 3 months of the immense distance we had. He was still into me 100% and still so committed to everything.

    The distance was there, but the intensity never disappeared. For example, if, as time passed, the light had faded slightly, he had become more distant, the conversations more dreary/forced, I would have perhaps seen the writing on the wall. But, right up until his boyfriend visited he was so warm and constantly wanting to talk, sending me things, either love messages or things related to our mutual interests. Even at the end of the first week of his boyfriends visit, he was still saying it’s all part of the effort he’s putting in for “us, our future, our children, our lives together”.

    “perhaps the why is fear of a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship” – I think this is both true and false in a way. I feared it initially because, well, the circumstances didn’t allow for it. I was happy to spend time with him because realistically it would be the only time I would get to be with this guy (live each day as if it’s your last sort of philosophy I suppose). He worked hard to convince me there was a future for us, I was the skeptical (perhaps, realistic) one at the beginning. But also it is true, there was some fear there of the unknown (as you know I haven’t had healthy relationships in the past!), but again, he was so reassuring and listened to all my doubts that I fell for him even more. One time he met a friend and I got upset as he hadn’t told me, he woke up at 4am his time to videocall and ask me all that I was feeling about the situation, to reassure me, and he accepted he’d maybe been a bit careless with my feelings. For me that was a solid foundation of a relationship.

    “this is the climactic point of the story as I read it: your move toward making this relationship an ongoing, committed real-life relationship.” I still am amazed at the commitment and dedication someone managed to stir up in me!

    “easy for as long as it is.. not a difficult, real-life, ongoing, committed relationship”  Yeah, the reality of the situation, it seems, dawned on him too. He had to come to terms with the fact he was in a relationship, but also completely dependent on that relationship to pursue his dream course. I think the prospect of a real relationship was not daunting for him, I think he wanted a healthy relationship. But, the reality of the situation came crashing in and well, it’s hard to love someone if you’re almost totally dependent on someone else (and, admittedly, probably not able to break up with them still).

    When I try to do the old therapy technique of “imagine it from his perspective”, I do, lamentably, understand him. It’s easy to say “i’ll break up with someone i’m essentially 100% reliant on”, but it’s a very big move to make. I’m not sure i’d be able to throw that all back in someone’s face easily. Their relationship is toxic but I suppose he keeps holding out hope that they will somehow resolve all their issues, (he is 25 and maybe still a little immature when it comes to healthy relationships). I can completely see too, most likely he wasn’t really “over” this toxic relationship. Even before i’d visited, he was saying he has to break up, he has to finish it, as this relationship was toxic for them both. Yet, he never managed to. I imagine it’s because he’s still in that phase where you’re waiting for these things to be “water under the bridge” – before you realise the bridge has no foundations strong enough.

    Not to get distracted, but I really don’t see them having a future either. One time he was visiting his mother and the boyfriend had an argument with him, he decided to go walk by the beach to clear his head but the boyfriend called him nearly 30 times demanding to speak with him. He was so annoyed he went and flirted with a guy on the beach and messaged him afterwards as some sort of revenge, leaving it open on his laptop after he’d returned so the boyfriend would see. Even when I was there they would argue nearly every week, one time he had to leave the house for an hour to cool off, leaving his phone there. I’m not sensing a strong, stable relationship with a bright future. Another time the boyfriend said “let’s get married at the end of the year”, which was flat out refused… i’m not quite sure that’s what you say to someone you love unconditionally.

    In our final call, he’d said with me he’d never felt such “freedom” to express himself and be himself. He said he hadn’t had many arguments with his boyfriend in the visit. “I’m trying to avoid them so I don’t create a bad atmosphere”… Fair enough but I don’t think you should have to make a concerted effort to not argue. I suppose here i’m trying to understand what happened really. He said many times he can’t have something with me if he is with someone else (rather than “my feelings for you have disappeared), so I hope in a way it was merely a tough choice and, well, reality bites. He said he cried so much about it, (but had to do it in the shower so his boyfriend didn’t see), so it must have hurt him too. A friend said it must have been harder for him than he is letting on.

    He also said “we’re not together but it’s not like i’ve completely forgotten about you, you’re acting like i’m never going to talk to you again”. I worry that will happen. He still sends a good morning, followed usually by some message about something, when I reply he only replies with brief messages, the conversations haven’t really grown into anything. Again, it makes sense because, well, if you’re trying to maintain distance and stay in a “relationship” with one person, you’re not exactly going to start sharing and opening up enormously to someone who you perhaps naturally drift towards.

    I think the worst bit is not knowing what it was for him. We can only guess of course as no one is a mind reader. I worry about the future. Is there any point in talking to him at all? I get anxious when he is brief in conversations. Not cold necessarily, but merely not talking as much as he used to with me. Again, I know why, but I don’t know if I can handle it. I know now it’s time for me to go and “live my life”, in a way i’ve accepted it rather than dangerously fantasizing about how to get back with him. There is a forlorn hope inside that says “well, maybe one day he’ll gain his independence and maybe we might reconcile” – not something I am planning for, but even that I feel obligated to snuff out as delusional. It’s hard to adjust to all those plans I made now turning to dust. Working in this job i’d got for him and for “us” – I’ve started to resent it a little, as now i’m leading a life that’s not for me alone but was for me and someone else.

    I don’t know how to read this all, I think. I hope it was, as you said Anita, a sort of “opening chapter” snuffed out by reality, maybe even the start of a love story unfortunately not possible because of the circumstances in which it started (a tale as old as time!). Yet, when I tell some people about it, they say he just used me and it was all a fraud, which lingers in my mind and causes a lot of doubt and pain. I don’t see it like that at all. But I greatly fear I am very grossly mistaken in my interpretation of it all, yet I know some fears are unfounded.

    #421943
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    I don’t know how to read this all, I think. I hope it was, as you said Anita, a sort of ‘opening chapter’ snuffed out by reality, maybe even the start of a love story unfortunately not possible because of the circumstances…  Yet, when I tell some people about it, they say he just used me and it was all a fraud, which lingers in my mind and causes a lot of doubt and pain. I don’t see it like that at all. But I greatly fear I am very grossly mistaken in my interpretation of it all“-

    -I re-read your original post and following posts, and from what you shared,  I too don’t see it like that at all, and it is not my interpretation of it all either.  I read nothing to indicate that he deceitfully used you and that any of it was a fraud on his part (or on yours).

    He mentions the relationship with his boyfriend is plagued by arguments, fights and a lack of trust… We spend a lot of time together…  and talk about everything. His family history, his physically abusive father who beat him everyday“-

    – it takes only a few seconds to say something like “my father physically abused me and beat me everyday”, but this piece of information about his childhood, aka his Formative Years, is very significant: it is a very significant part of who he has become/who he was formed into. Has he stayed with his argumentative, combative boyfriend because his boyfriend is like his father, and he is trying to resolve that abuse by proxy of his boyfriend.. (in addition to financial considerations)? I don’t know.

    You are very different from his argumentative, combative and forceful boyfriend. You were peaceful, shy (“I was shy around him“), accepting and Polite (“Later on he said… I was being ‘Polite’ and not forcing anything“)

    He is adamant that he will end it with his boyfriend and be mine…I call him, he says he is confused and doesn’t know why he can’t break up with his boyfriend, if it is guilt, pity. He says loving me is easy but he doesn’t know how he feels about his boyfriend. He says cries about at night in the shower, the only time he is alone without his boyfriend watching him“-

    – What if he really meant that he will end the relationship with his boyfriend.. I tend to believe that he meant it truly. But then, he couldn’t because the boy in him is still trying to make his father- by proxy of his boyfriend- love him and stop beating him.

    It is a common compulsion in adult-children who were abused as children by a parent, to resolve childhood abuse in adulthood by proxy of a romantic partner who is similar to the abusive parent. (I was abused by my mother and I felt a lot of guilt and pity, the words he used. She hit me and shamed me terribly, yet I felt pity for her and I felt that I deserved her treatment and that it is me who should change my behavior, so that she will finally love me).

    I tell him he can only love me or him. He calls back the next day and says he can’t do it, and shouldn’t have said all of that if he wasn’t prepared to finally break up“- he sounds like a conscientious person, feeling guilt and regret for promising what he wasn’t able to deliver.

    ‘My relationship was deeper than I thought’ he says. ‘The end of a chapter but our book is still open, life is a pandoras box”. I don’t know what that means“- perhaps his relationship with his boyfriend is deeper than he thinks, that it is, like I suggested above, a re-enactment of his childhood experience aimed at resolving it. You, on the other hand, are too dissimilar to his father to provide such (futile) opportunity for him.

    In October 2022, he sends me a message, he’s moving to Argentina, without his boyfriend, to study medicine… He moves to Argentina in January 2023. We talk more and more frequently“- it makes sense that away from his boyfriend (and the compulsion to resolve his childhood trauma), he became more available to have a healthy romantic relationship, a relationship with you.

    He says when he graduates he wants to move to England etc… One night he says ‘I think I love you… He was learning English phrases by himself, watching things in English, trying to learn them. Even with the visit he was going to make here he said “do you think your parents will like me?” and was asking about what my family liked so he would get on well with them while he was here and I was at work. We named our children, created a joint surname‘”- reads sincere to me.

    Towards the end of the trip however, I remain besotted and he buys a ring for me (not for marriage, but as commitment, something they do in Brazil). The one his boyfriend bought him has been left in a jewelry box since I’ve gotten there. The picture of them together is put in the cupboard, replaced by the UK flag he asked me to buy“-

    – here is a way to think about it: the ring that his boyfriend bought him (and the picture of them together) represent being imprisoned in his childhood trauma, while the ring he bought for you (and the UK flag) represent freedom from his childhood trauma and moving on to a healthy, love relationship.

    Right up until his boyfriend visited he was so warm and constantly wanting to talk, sending me things, either love messages or things related to our mutual interests. Even at the end of the first week of his boyfriends visit, he was still saying it’s all part of the effort he’s putting in for ‘us, our future, our children, our lives together’.“- it took one week of visiting with his boyfriend to be sucked back into the compulsion I mentioned above.

    He accepted he’d maybe been a bit careless with my feelings. For me that was a solid foundation of a relationship…I still am amazed at the commitment and dedication someone managed to stir up in me!“- your commitment and dedication was based on a true solid beginning of a love story, as I now see it, or guess that it was, a foundation that cracked a week into his boyfriend’s visit because of that common compulsion of abused adult-children to repeat and resolve  childhood trauma.

    Yeah, the reality of the situation, it seems, dawned on him too. He had to come to terms with the fact he was in a relationship, but also completely dependent on that relationship to pursue his dream course“- you are referring here to his dream of becoming a medical doctor. I am thinking about a different kind of dream, that which brings a smile to my face as I am typing right this moment: the dream to change an unloving parent into a loving parent.

    Their relationship is toxic but I suppose he keeps holding out hope that they will somehow resolve all their issues“- yes, and you  know what issues I am thinking about, which I repeatedly mentioned above.

    I really don’t see them having a future either… I’m not sensing a strong, stable relationship with a bright future“- I agree, based on all that you shared and my understanding of what you shared.

    In our final call, he’d said with me he’d never felt such ‘freedom’ to express himself and be himself… I think the worst bit is not knowing what it was for him. We can only guess of course as no one is a mind reader“- he’d never felt such freedom to.. temporarily be free of that compulsion, seems to me. And of course, I am not sure and I am not a mind reader. Yet that compulsion I mentioned is so very common that it doesn’t take mind-reading to appreciate how humanly common it is.

    I worry about the future. Is there any point in talking to him at all? I get anxious when he is brief in conversations. Not cold necessarily, but merely not talking as much as he used to with me. Again, I know why, but I don’t know if I can handle it… It’s hard to adjust to all those plans I made now turning to dust. Working in this job I’d got for him and for ‘us’ – I’ve started to resent it a little, as now I’m leading a life that’s not for me alone but was for me and someone else“-

    – you can’t control or experience peace of mind based on what’s happening in his mind, heart and life, but you can hold on to/ rest in the fact that you are an honest, loving man who is able to love and be loved in return. Protect this honest, loving man (yourself) and treat him well.

    anita

     

    #421960
    Ben
    Participant

    Thank you for this, Anita. It helps me to process what has happened, and at least someone somewhere sees it with more nuance than “he used you and you were played”, as it never felt like that outside of moments of tender bitterness towards him that he had chosen the other.

    Parental trauma rears it’s ugly head again. You know I even felt like saying, during one of the fraught conversations we had during his boyfriend’s visit, “this man is not your father!”, but I felt it a bit too silly to say, as he cannot see it that way and nothing is more irritating than people analysing you during a confrontation. But I sensed that was what was happening. In that first week he had said “Loving you was never in doubt, but I can’t decide what I feel about him and if I can’t decide how I feel about him, I can’t have something with you” – I think that says it all. He was quiet after that for a couple of days before I broke and had to declare my love for him in compassionate terms (that he said made him cry).

    I suppose in that quiet time he decided that hope of having “overcome” a toxic relationship with his boyfriend by not having arguments overcame his feelings for me. I was distant, and had been quite upset with him. His boyfriend was there, they weren’t arguing a lot, that unsettled feeling within him must have subsided slightly, or been nurtured, balmed, and maybe he mistook that as the “deeper” than he previously thought. It seemed like this was his new normal, I suppose, and that childhood trauma is a powerful thing. I suppose it’s a funny coincidence that I wrote my first topic here at 25, just the age he is now, about a relationship that clearly wasn’t working, but that I was projecting various traumas onto waiting for them to be solved by someone else. I really hope he will come too see that too, though this is a long process and, as in my own experience, involves a lot of to-and-fro between “my relationship will change, I can change” towards “it didn’t work out because it wasn’t meant to be”. I hope he will be able to find the way in the month or years to come.

    He is capable of reflection and growth. My heart hopes so much that he can see the path he is on won’t necessarily work out. I wonder if soon they will start arguing again, or if he will “control” himself so that they don’t argue and can have a facade of a relationship, or both.

    We are still having very robotic chats up to now. A “good morning”, some forced “i’m doing this today”, him enthusing about his new ipad. But nothing free-flowing, its all quite decidedly awkward. I certainly don’t know what to say, perhaps neither does he. I wonder if that will last, or we will drift away, or we will stay talking, or stay talking and drift back. I shouldn’t fixate on it and I’m not letting myself.

    In a way I feel better carrying on with my daily routine, seeing he’s sent a message causes almost a dread… should I reply? how to reply? will he reply or just acknowledge? A clear break seems impossible as it would mean i’d have to ignore him and that seems unproductive. I know even if I didn’t send anything, he would eventually still send a message. I suppose it’s still early days, only a week since the end of the “start of a love story”. Whatever is there between us will evolve into something that I suppose no one can guess. I don’t know whether to make more effort to talk, to ask him things, or to hold back as before, to not insist, for my own sake as much as his, and to simply let what is said be said. If I want to share something with him, share it, and see what happens. I don’t want to assume anything, the only thing I know is that I feel a connection to him.

    Its interesting what you said about the UK Flag. In our last call, which was going to be brief because “i’m studying for exams and dont have much time” – he said, and yet it ended up being 3 hours – I asked him about it. Didn’t his boyfriend comment on it? (He’s never been to the UK, he had one for Brazil and Argentina). He said “he did, but I pretended not to hear them” – in the video call, it’s still up on his wall. The picture of him and his boyfriend is back, and the ring we used is in his box, but the flag I bought is still there. Perhaps it means nothing, he just wants the collection. Perhaps not.

    I feel a bit hurt remembering the last call, at one point he said “it felt good, and in the moment I had to do what felt good” – perhaps not those words exactly, but words to that effect. It gives me an anxiety.

    As I was writing this, I sent him a good morning and he replied “I miss talking to you by video”… what a silly guy he is!

    #421963
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    You are welcome. “Nothing is more irritating than people analysing you during a confrontation“- I agree. I made the mistake of offering unwanted analyses to people many times in the past. I agree with (and impressed by) your analysis of him and the situation.

    Childhood trauma is a powerful thing. I suppose it’s a funny coincidence that I wrote my first topic here at 25, just the age he is now…  I hope he will be able to find the way in the month or years to come“- this is a very compassionate attitude, on your part.

    He is capable of reflection and growth… I wonder if soon they will start arguing again“- they probably will argue again: he is capable of reflection and growth, and his boyfriend may be capable of it too, but not together, not when the relationship itself (without attending couple therapy and working hard on it) is keeping both of them stuck in sickness.

    We are still having very robotic chats up to now. A ‘good morning’… I wonder if that will last, or we will drift away, or we will stay talking…“- you will surely know the answers in a year from now, maybe sooner. Can’t predict the future, as you know.

    In a way I feel better carrying on with my daily routine, seeing he’s sent a message causes almost a dread… should I reply? how to reply?… It’s still early days, only a week since the end of the ‘start of a love story’… I don’t know whether to make more effort to talk, to ask him things, or to hold back… If I want to share something with him, share it“- my thoughts: (1) Keep in mind that you have the option of No Contact, if that would be better for your mental health. (2) Reads like he needs space, so for as long as you choose to be in contact with him during this time, if I was you, I wouldn’t ask him any questions other than the general how-are-you? and surface questions, and not many of those. I wouldn’t share much with him either, unless he asks and then, I’d keep it short.

    It’s interesting what you said about the UK Flag. In our last call, which was going to be brief because ‘I’m studying for exams and don’t have much time’ – he said, and yet it ended up being 3 hours – I asked him about it. Didn’t his boyfriend comment on it? (He’s never been to the UK, he had one for Brazil and Argentina). He said ‘he did, but I pretended not to hear them’ – in the video call, it’s still up on his wall. The picture of him and his boyfriend is back, and the ring we used is in his box, but the flag I bought is still there. Perhaps it means nothing, he just wants the collection. Perhaps not.“-

    – (1) I like reading your reasonable, objective thinking: seeing the bigger picture/ different possibilities, not just a corner of the picture, that which fits wishful thinking. (2) In the opening of your recent post, you wrote: “at least someone somewhere sees it with more nuance than ‘he used you and you were played’“: if he was playing you, if there was deceit on his part (like it was suggested to you) then he would have removed the picture of him and his boyfriend from sight during the video call…? Reading and re-reading your story, I didn’t notice any evidence of deceit/ you being played.

    I feel a bit hurt remembering the last call, at one point he said “it felt good, and in the moment I had to do what felt good” – perhaps not those words exactly, but words to that effect. It gives me an anxiety“- I am lost at this moment reading this. What was he referring to by “it”?

    (I will soon be away from the computer and back in about 8- 24 hours from now).

    anita

    #421972
    Ben
    Participant

    Reads like he needs space, so for as long as you choose to be in contact with him during this time, if I was you, I wouldn’t ask him any questions other than the general how-are-you? and surface questions, and not many of those. I wouldn’t share much with him either, unless he asks and then, I’d keep it short.

    Yes, this was a good observation. Yet, I was confused by him admitting to missing having video calls with me today. Flattered and a little flustered. The thought of seeing him with the ring on pains me, the last video call we had was stolid and wooden. Well, it felt that way to me, but I suppose he was his usual self. It confused me because I didn’t know how far away he was after that trip, a video call is so different to just texting. That was of course when he’d said “you’re acting like i’m never going to talk to you again” – I think he said something like “it’s not as if you’ve fallen off my radar” – or words to that effect. I don’t know when to be honest with him about how I feel, when to give him space.

    I struggle to even reply to him. I can’t even say “I do too” – that feels like revealing too much. “I’m still here” – maybe. Saying “yeah it’s hard” is saying we won’t call again, acknowledging its hard for him. But I do want to communicate with him. I still want to share things with him, even if they are because of mutual interests rather than future plans. I will say something today so it doesn’t seem like i’m ignoring him.

    Who knows what will come of this. A part of me feels like we know where this path will lead, if we video call regularly again (unless he was just stating it to me with zero expectations, but then, he’s also showing vulnerability to me again which still indicates something inside him wants to connect with me). I am fully aware I may fall for him again and this time he will resist it to maintain his delusion of sorts and I could get hurt. A little piece of me, I suppose, is hanging onto some wishful thinking that maybe it will remind him again of the healthier relationship we had/could have and awaken him in some way. No one can tell the future, but also what is love without hope?! Once again I am entering this with zero expectations, I expect nothing from him, and if I get hurt I suppose it is a lesson for me, but one I haven’t learned yet.

    I suppose some of the anxiety this triggers is that lack of knowing where it will go. Usually communication will result in a friendship, solid or not, or even the end of one. Or, if lucky, it will move into a romance and love story. Even if these don’t come to pass, there is a sort of open, empty book to be written.

    This time, with him, it provokes only uncertainty in me, I don’t know really what he wants from them, either in his conscious or unconscious mind. We became friends then romanced then fell in love already. What more is there to do? He said “I want to keep your friendship, to keep our calls, my relation to you is still strong”, yet his messaging seems to be a bit more distant than merely friends, so I feel a bit confused with his admission to me.

    It’s almost like he’s starting to crack again, a week after his boyfriend has left and now he’s alone again. I guess I had become a part of his life and he misses it now there’s no distraction. I want to tell him life isn’t that simple, telling me that he misses me and we can have calls. Almost, how dare he have the audacity!? He knows why we aren’t talking by video call! But I’m done with anger, maybe I love him too much to hold onto resentment to him for long.

    I feel a bit hurt remembering the last call, at one point he said “it felt good, and in the moment I had to do what felt good” – perhaps not those words exactly, but words to that effect. It gives me an anxiety“- I am lost at this moment reading this. What was he referring to by “it”? — I think “it” was the experience we had together. I don’t remember if he said ” I had to do what felt good”, something like that, like following along with how he felt. Maybe that’s how he told himself it was to justify breaking it off with me, I was indeed, as I had kept telling him in anger, “a fling”. Almost as if I made it easier for him, I suppose.

     

    #422003
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Ben:

    I struggle to even reply to him…  But I do want to communicate with him. I still want to share things with him, even if they are because of mutual interests rather than future plans“-

    – talking to him about mutual interests sounds good. You shared in your original post: “He was deeply into history, old things, old music, and showed me all his old books with great enthusiasm, including a shared interest in old coins etc.”- mutual interests..

    I am fully aware I may fall for him again“- I was under the impression that you are still in love with him.

    No one can tell the future, but also what is love without hope?!“- excellent point!

    This time, with him, it provokes only uncertainty in me, I don’t know really what he wants from them, either in his conscious or unconscious mind“- if you know for sure what he wants- not in relation to you (ex., to study medicine)- then you can figure if you can possibly fit into what he revealed that he wants via his conscious mind.

    He said ‘I want to keep your friendship, to keep our calls, my relation to you is still strong’, yet his messaging seems to be a bit more distant than merely friends, so I feel a bit confused with his admission to me“- no one keeps the same closeness/ distance with a friend or a romantic partner at all times. Sometimes we feel closer, at other times we feel distant, and all that’s in-between.

    An anxious person (fitting the Anxious Attachment Style) is overly sensitive to nuances in the tone of voice, facial expressions, writing style, etc., of a romantic interest, seeing temporary/ normal distance as threatening, when it is not.

    Once again I am entering this with zero expectations, I expect nothing from him… I want to tell him life isn’t that simple, telling me that he misses me and we can have calls. Almost, how dare he have the audacity!? He knows why we aren’t talking by video call! But I’m done with anger, maybe I love him too much to hold onto resentment to him for long… I was indeed, as I had kept telling him in anger, ‘a fling’. Almost as if I made it easier for him, I suppose“-

    – you mentioned here and before that you expect nothing from him, but you do (rightfully, deservedly) expect something from a man: a real-life, committed and monogamous love story. And he is that man and the hope (which you mentioned above), at this point, isn’t he?

    anita

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