Home→Forums→Share Your Truth→Old Journal- things that pierce the human heart
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January 20, 2025 at 5:07 pm #441687
anitaParticipantDear Peter:
Just a little while ago, I felt that it is okay for me to keep the boundary with my mother (no contact) because I value myself and what I need for my well-being. I don’t need the hurt and anger to keep my boundary with her. Valuing myself/ my well-being is a good enough motivator. And it’s positive motivator, it doesn’t distress me (like the re-experience of hurt and anger does).
anita
January 21, 2025 at 6:57 am #441689
PeterParticipantHi Anita
That’s were I hope to get to with my stories, especially my old ones. I like that in such a space no justifications is needed, no explaining ourselves to ourselves or others.
I think that sometimes I heave held on to the hurt with a semi consensus hope that holding on to the hurt, hurts the one who hurt me. I’m good with releasing that.Synchronicity happened across this quote yesterday and thought it applied why we might do this exercise with our stories. I’m curious as to how you would parse it.
“The difference between shallow happiness and a deep, sustaining joy is sorrow.
Happiness lives where sorrow is not. When sorrow arrives, happiness dies. It can’t stand pain.
Joy, on the other hand, rises from sorrow and therefore can withstand all grief.
Joy, is the transfiguration of suffering into endurance, and of endurance into character, and of character into hope.
The hope that has become our joy does not (as happiness must for those who depend up on it) disappoint us.”
― Walter Wangerin JrJanuary 21, 2025 at 7:02 am #441690anitaParticipantDear Peter/all:
This morning, I am quoting (not analyzing) Peter’s words here on the forums: Old (tiny buddha) Journal- things that pierce (my) heart, or mind today, and letting them sink in (I can see a valuable book published by you, Peter, copying from your tiny buddha posts).
Peter, May 27, 2016 (first post on tiny buddha): “The problem is that when most people talk about purpose, they are imagining something grand, something experienced with every breath we take… The reality is that purpose, like meaning, is a subjective experience and not something that exists in and of itself as a measurable objective experience. We do love to measure things, and you would think we would be better at it”.
Peter, Oct 4, 2016: “There is an art to forgiveness. Many feel that if they forgive, they are saying that what happened to them was ok and that they now must allow those who have hurt them back into their lives. But that is not so. Forgiveness can create the space for the wronged to move forward from the experience.
“For a word that is often used, it is surprising how little the word forgiveness is understood. Don’t let your heart harden and in hardening keep everything bottled up…
“Perhaps the difficulty in letting go of past experiences was in a way leaving you mentally and or emotionally constipated… What might life be like if your memories could freely flow through you without them overly influencing your present?”
Peter, Oct 12, 2016: “Each person is… more than the sum of their parts (and past) … It would be my hope that you realize that the memories of your past do not have to define the story of your experience today… We become the stories we tell, so tell a good one”.
Peter, Nov 28, 2017: “When I notice myself feeling anxious, I stop what I’m doing and take moment and remind myself that I am not my thoughts, I am not my memories/past, I am not my emotions. I am the observer of thoughts, memories and emotions. In this way space is created to take a breath and change perspective to what is happening around me allowing the experience to flow”.
anita
January 21, 2025 at 7:04 am #441691anitaParticipant* I submitted the above before I became aware of your recent post 5 min earlier. Will reply to the recent soon.
January 21, 2025 at 8:32 am #441693anitaParticipantDear Peter:
1) Processing the quote: it begins by drawing a distinction between shallow happiness and deep, sustaining joy. Shallow happiness is described as a fleeting state that exists only in the absence of sorrow. In contrast, deep joy is described as an enduring state that can coexist with and even arise from sorrow.
Happiness is depicted as fragile and unable to withstand pain. When sorrow arrives, happiness fades away because it cannot endure suffering. Happiness can easily be disrupted by negative experiences. Joy, on the other hand, is described as a deeper, resilient state that can withstand negative experiences.
This suggests that joy is not just an absence of sorrow but a transformation of it. Joy is born out of the experience of enduring and overcoming sorrow, a transcendence from suffering to endurance. This means that through suffering, it is possible to develops the strength and resilience to endure challenges.
Endurance then transforms into character. This implies that enduring suffering shapes one’s character, instilling qualities like strength, resilience, and wisdom.
Finally, character gives rise to hope. The development of character through enduring suffering leads to a sense of hope and optimism for the future. The hope that emerges from this process becomes the source of deep joy. Unlike shallow happiness, this joy is not easily shaken because it is rooted in the strength and character developed through enduring suffering. This joy does not disappoint because it is not dependent on external circumstances. It is a sustaining, inner strength that can endure even in the face of grief and sorrow.
2) Personal reflection (when I refer to pain, I mean emotional pain mostly)- images appear in my mind in regard to this quote: a person crumbling under pain, falling to the ground, contracted, smaller. An image of a tree under the distress of drought, falling leaves, cracking, breaking branches, the tree smallest, minimal, so to survive the drought/ the suffering.
This is what happened to me and what I participated- unbeknownst to me- in the making: I became less, minimal, small, smallest. The logic behind this instinctive response to pain: the less there is of me=> the less there is to feel pain.
Being less means less pain on the short run. But on the long run, being less = less endurance. With less endurance, pain intensifies and continues on and on and on.
Transcending pain would then mean to get up from the ground, to get up and stretch, take air in and expand/ undo the contraction. It is a different position to pain: upward, expanded, strong.
My mistake, I now realize (for the first time) is that I remained contracted, minimal in the face of pain for way, way longer than such strategy is effective. This strategy increased and maintained my pain because there was not enough of me to endure it.
I was a prisoner of the same-old, same-old pain of my childhood+ for longer than half a century, frozen in place, minimal, a life suffocated by the fear of (the same childhood) pain.
It’s as if I was waiting the whole time for the pain to go away so that I can stand up, stand straight and dare to breathe/ to expand. It never happened and I remained on the ground being stared down by the pain, so to speak, while what I needed was to stand up and look it in the eye.
Transcending the fear of pain long- term then is a shift from minimizing myself so to feel less pain => maximize myself (add determination, resilience, strength, courage, hope) so to better be able to endure pain and enjoy the consequence of such endurance: joy as a way of life.
This reminds me of the chest-opener positions of yoga- expanding the heart, the shoulders, the upper back, undoing the common hunching over (contracted) positions of sitting. There is a sensation of power when I do every morning. I now need to do more of it, more expansion, opening myself to the experience of life from the position of strength and even hope, dare to hope.
As I said before, your thread is amazing to me, amazingly valuable. Thank you.
anita
January 21, 2025 at 10:28 am #441697PeterParticipantHi Anita
Blast from the past. 🙂
Peter, Nov 28, 2017: “When I notice myself feeling anxious, I stop what I’m doing and take moment and remind myself that I am not my thoughts, I am not my memories/past, I am not my emotions. I am the observer of thoughts, memories and emotions. In this way space is created to take a breath and change perspective to what is happening around me allowing the experience to flow”.
I’ve been re-examining the above. Again sorry this is going to be straight up type 5 mode.
I’ve since realized that we can’t separate the thinker from the thought as the thinker is also the thought, the observer is also the observed, the experience is also the experiencer…
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“We have separated anger, jealousy, loneliness, sorrow, as something separate from me so that I can control it, shape it, run away from it; but if that is me, I can do nothing about it but just observe it. So the observer is the observed.”“It is not that you – the observer, the thinker – are in sorrow and are looking at that sorrow, but there is only the state of sorrow.”
That state of undivided sorrow is necessary, because when you look at sorrow as an observer you create conflict, which dulls the mind and dissipates energy, and therefore there is no attention.”
– KrishnamurtiBy saying I was not my thoughts I was separating the thought from the thinker that in the short term reduced anxiety but only masked the conflict. Not my thought or being my thoughts, both are a attempt to control. A desire to feel better and fool myself.
I was repeating over and over that I was not my thoughts, while paradoxically noticing that that was also is a thought, a illusion of the temporal sphere – the space between the observer and observed is time (note that the observer can only observe the past)
Today I might say the the Thought and Thinker, the Observer and Observed are happenings in the Temporal sphere of experience, the sphere of measurement and duality. Releasing the Thoughts the Thinker is released, releasing the Observed the Observer is released and we return to the flow of the Eternal Now.
– “In time there is no present, In eternity no future, In eternity no past.” – Alfred Lord Tennyson
Today When I feel anxious I remind myself that the Temporal sphere of experience is a playground of measurement, thoughts and the stories told, a map but not the territory which is Transcendent. That, if only for a moment in the Temporal realm, the Eternal can be experienced.
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“Observe for yourself a tree, a flower, the face of a person; to look at any one of them, and so look that the space between you and them is non-existent. And you can only look that way when there is love…When you have this sense of real observation, real seeing, then that seeing brings with it this extraordinary elimination of time and space which comes about when there is love” – Krishnamurti
Remove the space/time that is between the thought and the thinker, the observed and the observer, the experience and the experiences – this is the Eternal Present Now… Love
From my journal I found the following which I think shows why we get caught up in our stuff
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“In our society, we have come to believe that discomfort always means something is wrong, We are conditioned to believe the feelings of distress, pain, and deprivation, yearning and longing mean something is wrong with the way we are living our lives. Conversely, we are convinced that a rightly live life must give us serenity, completion and fulfillment. Comfort means “right” and distress means “wrong”. The influence of suck convictions is stifling to the human spirit. Individually and collectively, we must somehow recover the truth. The truth is we were never meant to be completely satisfied.” – Gerald MayAccepting sorrow of discomfort we open ourselves to Joy?
I will post this even as I wonder if the words makes sense
January 21, 2025 at 10:34 am #441698PeterParticipantHi Anita
Grate break down and example
My mistake, I now realize (for the first time) is that I remained contracted, minimal in the face of pain for way, way longer than such strategy is effective….“The hope that emerges from this process becomes the source of deep joy. Unlike shallow happiness, this joy is not easily shaken because it is rooted in the strength and character developed through enduring suffering. This joy does not disappoint because it is not dependent on external circumstances. It is a sustaining, inner strength that can endure even in the face of grief and sorrow.”
Love that
January 21, 2025 at 12:13 pm #441699anitaParticipantDear Peter:
So glad to get both of your replies. I am looking forward to process the first with my own own band of type 5 brain mode tomorow morning. Thank you for the Love-that in your 2nd post. Back tomorrow.
Anita
January 21, 2025 at 12:16 pm #441700anitaParticipantSorry, own brand, own just once (typing from my phone)]
January 21, 2025 at 2:19 pm #441704
AnonymousInactiveHi Peter
Oooh lots of fun things to comment on today.
I’m probably going to have to break it up into chunks to keep my place.
I don’t really differentiate between joy and happiness personally. The quote would suggest character is a component. But I don’t think it is a character flaw per se. In my mind, it is just a matter of attention.
Happiness is always there to comfort us, even when we don’t notice and even deny its existence. It is like a mother that some of us never had, taking care of us as we chase and cling to it, yet swear it doesn’t love us. It is true that character development can allow us to notice happiness even in the bleakest moments. But what struck me, when I had my first experience of this was that happiness was there all along.
I remember sitting on a park bench watching the sunset as I often did. But instead of being depressed per usual, I just sat there and went wow that is beautiful and truly enjoyed the experience.
January 21, 2025 at 2:31 pm #441705AnonymousInactiveI like the quote about love by Krishnamurti. To me, that is Buddha nature.
In two minds about the Gerard May quote. I disagree that people aren’t meant to be happy.
But yes, people often make those mistakes. I have in the past. I have felt bad and expected someone else to fix it. But there was nothing to fix but my own perception.
It is quite often the opposite, safety and comfort that can harm us. Too much of anything can be harmful. Aversion to discomfort, whilst human, is a deeply harmful trait for an individual to suffer from.
January 21, 2025 at 2:38 pm #441706AnonymousInactiveAnd for your personal reply to me. I could not agree more. Please don’t worry, you are free to share anything at all. 😊
I am still to try this exercise that you recommended. I will though for sure and once again, report back.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, journal entries and the interesting quotes!
Love, peace and forgiveness! ❤️🙏
January 22, 2025 at 9:29 am #441721PeterParticipantHi Helcat
(Shoot my first attempt of a reply failed to save and I lost it. It was brilliant and anyone reading it would have laughed and cried realizing that now they understood everything. Sadly the response is lost forever.) 🙂
I had to read May’s quote a few times to realize that he wasn’t saying that we weren’t meant to be happy but that it was in our labeling of discomfort as wrong and bad and comfort as right and good that we stifle growth. As you noted safety, and comfort can also harm us.
Finding happiness fleeting I felt that the May quote fit nicely with what Walter Wangerin was saying about the contrast between Joy and Happiness. Where Happiness tends to fade as we experience discomfort, Joy transcends discomfort as Joy does not deny or hide from discomfort or sorrow (labeling it bad or wrong) but arises from it.
In Anita example and response, and something I have also experienced, having come through to the other side of discomfort, hurt and sorrow we find ourselves, our character strengthened, more resilient, more our true selves. An experience that transcends itself becoming oddly Joyous.
I agree that happiness is always present and something that we fail to notice. My thought is that the experience of Joy lead us to be more open to noticing happiness… Then I may be playing with words… to be candid I resonate more with the word Joy then happiness.
I love the moments where a sunset can bring us to stillness and contentment.
A question I ask myself and others is what happens to the moment when the sun sets.I wonder is if its possible to be still and content while engaged with Life that is in constant motion?
My feeling is that when we do, we might label the moment bliss or joyous, but then in such a moment maybe we wouldn’t feel a need to label it at all.January 22, 2025 at 10:47 am #441723anitaParticipantDear Peter:
Peter, Nov 28, 2017: “I am not my thoughts, I am not my memories/past, I am not my emotions. I am the observer of thoughts, memories and emotions”.
Peter, Jan 21, 2025: “I’ve been re-examining the above… I’ve since realized that we can’t separate the thinker from the thought as the thinker is also the thought, the observer is also the observed, the experience is also the experiencer… By saying I was not my thoughts I was separating the thought from the thinker that in the short term reduced anxiety but only masked the conflict… I was repeating over and over that I was not my thoughts, while paradoxically noticing that that was also a thought…
“Today I might say that the Thought and Thinker, the Observer and Observed are happenings in the Temporal sphere of experience, the sphere of measurement and duality. Releasing the Thoughts, the Thinker is released, releasing the Observed the Observer is released and we return to the flow of the Eternal Now…
“Today When I feel anxious I remind myself that the Temporal sphere of experience is a playground of measurement, thoughts and the stories told, a map but not the territory which is Transcendent. That, if only for a moment in the Temporal realm, the Eternal can be experienced… Remove the space/time that is between the thought and the thinker, the observed and the observer, the experience and the experiences – this is the Eternal Present Now… Love”-
W.O.W Peter! Wow (that’s my first response).
Processing: initially, you believed in the separation of the thinker from the thought. This meant seeing thoughts and emotions as separate from yourself, which helped reduce anxiety by creating a mental space. Over time, you realized that this separation was only masking the underlying conflict that arises from trying to control or suppress thoughts.
By repeating the mantra “I am not my thoughts,” a person attempts to disown or separate from one’s thoughts, which leads to an ongoing internal struggle. It creates a form of resistance, as the mind is constantly working to keep thoughts at a distance.
The paradox: wanting to detach from one’s thoughts leads to generating more thoughts. This reveals the futility of trying to resist, control and separate from thoughts.
By recognizing that the thinker is also the thought and the observer is also the observed, you eliminate this conflict, as there is no longer a need to fight against or control one’s thoughts.
Integrating the thinker with the thought and the observer with the observed allows to fully experience the present moment. This state of presence, described as the “Eternal Now,” is characterized by love and unity, free from the conflict of separation.
The thinker is inherently intertwined with the thought, and the observer with the observed. This realization aligns with teachings that emphasize unity and non-duality.
You recognize that the Eternal can be experienced, even if momentarily, within the Temporal realm. This involves removing the artificial separation between the thinker and the thought, removing one’s resistance to one’s thoughts, and embracing the present moment with love.
The Temporal sphere is where measurements, thoughts, and stories occur. This sphere is a map, not the actual territory, which is Transcendent. It is possible, within the confines of the Temporal realm, to touch the Eternal by fully accepting and embracing the present moment instead of rejecting and resisting it.
“‘In our society, we have come to believe that discomfort always means something is wrong… Comfort means ‘right’ and distress means ‘wrong’. The influence of suck convictions is stifling to the human spirit. Individually and collectively, we must somehow recover the truth. The truth is we were never meant to be completely satisfied.’ – Gerald May”-
– Processing: Gerald May’s quote challenges societal norms and beliefs about discomfort and well-being. The quote begins by highlighting that society often equates discomfort with something being wrong. This conditioning leads people to believe that any feelings of distress, pain, or longing indicate that there is a problem with their lives. Conversely, society promotes the idea that a well-lived life should be filled with serenity, fulfillment, and comfort. This binary thinking positions comfort as inherently “right” and discomfort as “wrong.” May argues that these convictions stifle the human spirit. By viewing discomfort as undesirable and avoiding it, individuals miss out on important aspects of growth, resilience, and self-discovery.
He asserts that humans were never meant to be completely satisfied. This idea challenges the pursuit of perpetual happiness and comfort as ultimate goals. Instead, he implies that experiencing and accepting discomfort is an inherent part of life that contributes to personal growth and fulfillment.
Rather than seeing discomfort as a negative indicator, it can be viewed as a natural and valuable part of life. Feelings of distress, pain, and longing are not necessarily signs of a flawed life, but rather opportunities for growth and self-awareness.
By accepting both comfort and discomfort as integral parts of the human experience, individuals can develop greater resilience and emotional intelligence. This acceptance allows for a balanced and authentic approach to life.
This quote is a powerful reminder that discomfort is a natural and essential part of life. This shift in perspective can lead to a more authentic and holistic approach to well-being, where both comfort and discomfort are valued as integral parts of the human experience.
Peter, Jan 21, 2025: “Accepting sorrow of discomfort we open ourselves to Joy?”- the answer I am trying to grow into: yes, by accepting sorrow and discomfort, we open ourselves to joy. Accepting and embracing (no longer rejecting, resisting) the full spectrum of our emotions allows us to experience life authentically, in ways that fit the reality of life as it is, the Temporal and the Eternal.
It’s not about seeking discomfort but about recognizing it as a natural part of our lives. In accepting it, we build resilience and find a richer, more nuanced understanding of happiness.
Thanks for sharing your insights and for prompting such meaningful reflections. Again: WOW, Peter!
anita
January 22, 2025 at 3:11 pm #441734PeterParticipantHi Anita
That was a very thoughtful and helpful break down – thanks. I feel were on to something.
As I read through the dialog I’ve been asking if it possible to move past realizing a truth and living/being it. – ‘Joy, life living through you.”?
I feel the perspective on sorrow and discomfort is a important realization.The following new journal entry was written before your breakdown
I’ve been thinking about the space between the thought and the thinker, the observer and the observed, the experience and the experience. How we fill the space with language, measurements, judgments… constructs unintentionally creating discomfort, then using language and measurement to relieve us from the discomfort. We contract ourselves in a seemingly endless loop.
I wonder if its in the filing of space between observer and the observed that the illusion of time is created?
The created time and space that can only be memory and so the past, or a future that imagines it can change the past or life to be other then it is. Perhaps the space become time may be better thought of as a playground if only, so I don’t become trapped in it….In my early journal writings, there is a quote by Kierkegaard who argued that “The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly the one you will never have. ” I realized that this is a truth and noted how most of the hurt in the stories arose from an imagined future that would or could not ever be… its not just sad morning the future that cannot be, it’s exhausting if you fail to let it go…
I note as Anita has shown from my past writings that what I have been seeking is an answer to what I now see as the ‘problem’ of the illusion of space between the observer and the observed. The exercise of removing measurements of labels and now I think language itself?
(“We seldom realize that our most private thoughts and emotions are not actually our own. For we think in terms of languages and images which we did not invent, but which were given to us by our society“. – Alan Watts)How we love to fill that space with language. I recall now how many creation/beginning stories start with words being spoken? “in the beginning was the word”
Circling, always circling… to what end?
I recall the thought of the martial artist and dancer training and training until their reactions were responses were no thought (no space) was required…. that its when the dancers ‘forgets the rules that they are dancing, the seeing paradox that they had to learn first before they could forget.
A story told by Krishnamurti
In ancient China before an artist began to paint anything – a tree, for instance – he would sit down in front of it for days, months, years, it didn’t matter how long, until he was the tree. He did not identify himself with the tree, but he was the tree. This means that there was no space between him and the tree, no space between the observer and the observed, no experience experiencing the beauty, the movement, the shadow, the depth of a leaf, the quality of colour. He was totally the tree, and in that state only could he paint.Days, months, years… measurements… My thought is that moving from words of understanding to being that which is sought will not be an act of will, of trying… it would be a happening?
As a type 5 my playground, my happy place, is the search for understanding… unintentionally creating days, months, years… but to be an artist… ? -
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