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Return of Intrusive Thoughts

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  • #287535
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    Welcome back to your thread. Yes, I am willing to continue our communication, please go ahead.

    anita

    #287565
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    Thank you so much!

    I have previously gone into detail about my sentiments regarding this box, so I will avoid repetition. However, those same sentiments seem to continue coming into my head. I previously agreed it is not about the box, but at the same time it somehow is. It is about the box in that I find myself wishing I had just kept it or just asked for it back, knowing very well that the past won’t change. I even spend time thinking about all the times I have thought about this. It feels as if my brain is hyper focused on specific aspects of this incident that bother me. I worry I may never move past this.

    You mentioned the box could be a symbol. I agree with this explanation, and this is how it is not about the box. Rather, the box symbolizes my perceived failures and mistakes from those few years.  Do you feel that is how symbolism in the mind often works? I am not too familiar with this concept.

    Over the years, as you can see, I fluctuate between having complete peace about this incident but there are also times it takes up all my attention, hindering my abilities at home and work.

    To put it simply, I have found myself stuck on this incident again. It feels as if I don’t deserve to be able to peacefully put this behind me. I am sorry to take up your time with this, and fully realize there are limitations in the extent to which you can help me. Please do let me know if there is anything I can clarify.

    Best Regards,

    Kareem

    #287581
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    I just re-read through our communication in your two threads. The box incident happened in 2012 when you were a senior in high school. The box was full of t-shirts and some  other freebies from your “high leadership position on a regional level for a large student-run organization”.

    You asked your mother to mail it to a friend from the organization, she didn’t and she suggested to you that instead of sending it to that friend, that you leave it for the family. But you chose to mail it to the friend anyway.

    The friend’s response when receiving the box included: “I have no idea why you gave  me all of that other stuff though, I have like no use for it! Haha… thanks though!”

    You suffered lots of regret for having sent that box to the friend, and you wrote, “Now these days, if I am ever given the opportunity or notice a free shirt, I will always be sure to grab it and  take it to my parents”. You expressed guilt and regret otherwise regarding your parents: “I was bratty/disrespectful despite them doing so much for me… I frankly was a soiled brat, and couldn’t see all they had done for me (driving me places.. ironing many clothes, waking me up..)”.

    And you wrote: “My sister and I have a habit of saying sorry over and over again”.

    This is my understanding today: your parents instilled in you (and in your sister) an intense feeling of obligation to them, owing them. You were instilled with a sense of guilt and debt to them. This is why you and your sister have been in the “habit of saying sorry over and over again”.

    What motivated you to be a good student, to get good grades in school was to please your parents, to work toward making their lives easier, because you felt you owed them, because you felt guilty. But your work as a senior in high school with the organization, it was different. What motivated you then, for the first time, in a long, long time, was your personal motivation, doing something that you wanted to do as an individual. You wanted to do  that work and found joy in it as an individual, independent person,  not as a son/ brother/ family member.

    You did that work not out of a sense of guilt and indebtedness. You did it because you valued it, because you felt valuable doing it and you found personal interest and joy in it. This is why you sent it to a  friend from the organization, not wanting to  give it  to your family. Your family has taken so much away from you already: your independence, your joy, your permission to yourself to explore what you want… you didn’t want to give away to them the box as well, the box that symbolizes a life not based on guilt and indebtedness, but a life motivated by your own interest, a life of a free man.

    Your friend’s response upon receiving the box hurt you so much because he said he has no value for it when to you, this box carried the highest value- your value as a person and as a free person, free from guilt and indebtedness, who you could be if your parents didn’t… own your life.

    In summary: I think you need to live your own life away from your family. I think you should go back to finding your value as an individual, not as a  guilty-son/brother/family member.

    You suggested that you owe your parents for driving you places and ironing your clothes-well, I suppose you can roughly calculate how much money they spent driving you places and ironing your clothes since the age of .. 16 or 18 and plan to pay them that amount of money. Then free yourself from guilt and live your own life!

    I think this box is about that, living your own life as a man free of this unjustified sense of guilt and indebtedness to your parents.

    anita

    #287631
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hello Anita,

     

    Thank you for taking the time to read through my thread again, and for providing a detailed response. I do agree with what you have said to an extent.

     

    You are right in that my work in the organization was one thing I truly, genuinely wanted to spend my time doing. My heart felt full while I was doing that work, and attaining the regional position felt like a dream come true. I don’t quite think my parents realized this, and when my work in this organization came at the expense of school, they were not too happy. Internally, I would often feel that doing this work was a mistake, because it was impacting my school performance. The pain from my friend’s response is also true, although another friend (uninvolved in this organization) has told me he definitely did not have any intentions of hurting me. When I would see him any time in the several months following the box, he always greeted me with great enthusiasm and spoke very highly about our time together as board officers. I also agree that I need to begin the process of creating a new, enjoyable life for myself.

     

    I would like to note, though, that my parents were never abusive, or even yelled at me about my involvement in this organization (although they did have disappointment about my grades slipping). Being a child of immigrants from India, I was often taught performing well in school is what allows you to get further in life, and at the end of the day, enjoy your life. This is something I also firmly believe in. Even now, many years after graduating from college, I wonder what may have resulted had I worked harder or had more confidence in myself.

     

    I believe that the idea of “owing your parents,” is a bit of cultural thing as well, as this is common practice in India (but I realize this may not really apply to me here in America). Regarding saying sorry several times, my parents often tell us we don’t need to do that. I am not entirely certain where that behavior stems from. You cited my comment of being a “spoiled brat.” I was definitely an irritable teen for my last two years of high school and I do regret this. I have felt the need before to apologize for this, although I realize teens are often difficult. I am wondering if you feel this falls in line with feeling a sense of undue guilt and debt, as many, if not all, teenagers are like this.

     

    Additionally, while the contents of the box meant a lot to me such that I wanted to give it to a peer, I don’t think I would classify it as having the “highest value…” (but it did mean a lot to me) I think I have previously mentioned, that I do my best not to be attached to objects.   It’s interesting you bring up the point of paying back my parents; I have asked them that before, but they have said there is no need to. Recently, my sister announced she wanted to quit her job for new ventures, but was worried about her financial state. My parents said they would be happy to support her in the meantime. That being said, though, I think that paying my parents some money would actually help me move ahead.

     

    Looking back, my regret is that I let my emotions get the best of me (I wish I had waited maybe a week to really think about it before sending. I wish I had the perspective to look a few years ahead. I don’t know why I was in such a hurry to send this box, whereas with other materials I had, I waited several weeks, if not months to finally get rid of). I try to look back on this as a learning experience (I know I learned something from this), but then I get frustrated that it took this incident to learn that. And, I regret all the time I have spent thinking of this for the past 7 years. I believe it is worth noting that at times, I do regret my participation in this organization. Maybe sometimes, I think it is related to the box, but more often than not it isn’t (there were other ways this organization caused stress to my life, perhaps unduly).

     

    I also agree that I need live my own life (have been planning a move to a new city, for a fresh start for several months now). Do you have any suggestions as to how I can internally put this behind me and forget about the time I lost thinking about this? I almost feel that a conversation with my parents might help, even though they never brought this incident up. Maybe it may help me to hear that they don’t feel I owe them anything in this regard.

     

    Thank you again for taking the time and consideration to help me out on this, I know you already have a lot on your plate. If you are unable to respond to any of the above, I completely understand. I also realize that you are limited in the extent to which you can help over a platform like this.

     

    Best Regards,

    Kareem

    #287703
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    You are very welcome and I am glad to be communicating with you. I hope you can feel comfortable to continue to communicate with me here for as long as you would like.

    You wrote about your work in the organization that is was something you “truly, genuinely wanted to spend (your) time doing”, and that your “heart felt full” while doing that work, and that attaining the regional position “felt like a dream come true”.

    But you regret doing that work because it impacted your school performance, it came at the expense of school. And your parents were unhappy about that.

    I understand that the friend didn’t intend to hurt your feelings with his response to receiving the box, and that your parents never yelled at you about your involvement in this organization (or otherwise, they never yelled at you?)

    I understand that you were taught the importance of performing well in school and agree with the importance of performing well in school and elsewhere. I am also familiar with the “idea of ‘owing your parents'”, being a cultural thing in India and in other places in the world. I myself felt an intense sense of indebtedness to my mother all of my life, until recently, a sense of indebtedness and guilt that greatly burdened me and led to a lot of dysfunction in my life.

    You wrote: “while the contents of the box meant a lot to me.. I don’t think I would classify it as having the ‘highest value..’ (but it did mean a lot to me)”- if the box meant a lot to you, then it had a high value to you. Maybe not the highest value.

    What is your highest value ???

    anita

     

    #287781
    Kareem
    Participant

    Good morning Anita,

    Thank you so much, I know I am not the only one on this forum that is greatly appreciative of all you do!

    Regarding my values: I would say I have several values I hold to be equally high. One would be to always strive for the best and personal improvement each day; I don’t focus on being better than others, but rather better than I was yesterday. I would also say maintaining a sense of humility is important, I have realized you can’t approach life with the sentiment that world owes you anything. Finally, I value being nice, courteous, and respectful to my family, friends, and everyone I encounter.

    A few more thoughts about the organization that came to mine (in case they’re worth mentioning). Looking back I sometimes wonder if the time I spent in the organization was really, truly worth it. I was in this organization all four years of high school, and held a regional level position for two years (one year being the highest position, we can call it region president). These two years were challenging to say the least, mentally, physically and emotionally. There was a mental exhaustion stemming from these two years that I believe took several years to really move past. Sometimes I wonder if I’d be in a better position today, in terms of my job, life path, socially, etc. had I not done this position. I also don’t know if I was the best version of myself during those years. In hindsight, I don’t know if I would do it again (and this is a thought that has frequently entered my head).

    Please feel free to let me know if there are any further questions I can answer.

    Much appreciated,

    Kareem

     

     

    #287795
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    You are very welcome and I appreciate your grace.

    I think that it is indeed, very important in your mind, “to always strive for the best…the best version of myself” in every area. You strive to be the best at “being nice, courteous, and respectful to my family, friends, and everyone I encounter”.

    In this quest to be the best version of yourself, to improve every day, you are having some troubles with emotions. Sometimes they are a problem for you and create a conflict as you strive for that ongoing improvement.

    You expressed concern several times in your thread about having been too emotional, having sent that box because of emotion. You rely heavily on logic, on sensible thinking, but the emotion sometimes gets in the way.

    What do you think?

    anita

     

     

     

    #287819
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    Upon reflection, I believe your sentiments are spot on. In the past, emotion has often gotten in the way of some of the choices I can make. This can be positive emotions (wanted to do something for someone else, like with the box), or negative emotions (e.g. I didn’t apply to certain colleges because I was simply convinced I wouldn’t get in).

    I have definitely made improvements over the years. The person who I was as a high school senior is nowhere close to who I am now (and I am so glad for that). However, I struggle with leaving the past behind. I am disappointed with the choices I made, which I realize were driven by emotion. I believe that there is always a positive lesson to learn from negative situations, but it bothers me that it took a negative situation to learn the lesson in the first place. I am often hyper focused on wondering why I made the choices I did (before I made the improvements that got me to where I am). I even feel regret and anxiety about feeling regret and anxiety.

    Please do let me know if there is anything I can clarify. Hope you’re having a great day!

    Thanks,

    Kareem

    #287829
    Kareem
    Participant

    I wanted to also add, despite how many times I have tried to move on from this incident (talking to friends, posting on this forum, attempting to put this in perspective (aka, relative to the rest of life in general, not a big deal)). The sentiments will always come back (why did I do this?) it’s a discomfort that I feel in my chest, and am currently feeling.

    #287831
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    You are welcome and thank you for wishing me a great day.

    I can see that our communication requires more time and I hope we  continue tomorrow and for as many days as it takes, and you are willing. It will take more time because I need to ask you a question in this post, then wait for an answer, and then, I imagine I will have something to say and ask you another question or ask your input about this or that. And this takes time.

    You mentioned positive emotions and negative emotions. My question is: what do you mean by negative emotions, please tell me all that you mean by negative-emotions.

    * I will soon be away from the computer for a while.

    anita

    #287833
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    This sounds like a good plan. I am happy to continue discussing this with you on this forum. I realize this may take time, but I will commit myself to remaining active and replying to each of your questions.

    I would describe negative emotions as those which are deprecating to oneself or another person.

    Towards another person, an example could include preconceived notions or negative judgments without even knowing them (something I was guilty of in my youth). It could also be feeling negatively about someone after a rude or unkind interaction (e.g. when someone rudely shoved me in a crowded place, I would feel resentment or anger towards this person). I am realizing that perhaps these are negative thoughts, rather than emotions.

    I would like to emphasize that what I have described as negative emotions are a bit more internal. For many years, I struggled with making friends in school and was teased/bullied, moreso in late elementary and middle school. I would feel ashamed (a negative emotion) as if there is something wrong with me, I would wonder throughout my teen years why I can’t be “normal.” The example I mentioned above, in my self-perceived bad performance in school, I had a poor self-view (another negative emotion). I had little confidence while applying to college, for example, and to this do I brood over what would have happened had I applied to a few more places, even though I got into a school I wanted to.

    Is this making sense? Please let me know if you would like me to clarify something further.

    #287835
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    I am glad you like the plan and am looking forward to proceed. I will be able to attentively read your recent post and anything you may add to it when I return to the computer in about 14 hours from now. Have a good day/evening!

    anita

    #287853
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    Thank you for the update!

    At this precise moment, I would like to add that my anxiety is very much under control. But I can feel part of me wanting to go back into the exact cycle of thoughts, and thoughts about my previous thoughts, that I have described. I am certain this feeling of being free of anxiety is only temporary.

    In this case, it is regarding the box, but this seems to occur with all my anxious worries. I often have such mood swings (just over an hour ago, I was feeling very severe anxiety).

    Regards,

    Kareem

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Kareem.
    #287863
    Kareem
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    It is about four hours since my last post. As I had predicted, the same anxiety (the mental and physical sensations) has returned. Sharing if it is helpful at all.

    Thanks again,

    Kareem

    #287875
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Kareem:

    I want to re-read all your previous posts on your two threads and will reply to you when I am done.

    anita

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