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September 19, 2024 at 5:57 am #438225anitaParticipant
Dear Clara:
You are welcome. I am well other than not sleeping enough, thank you!
“I wrote something to my little self, telling her I love her the other day… But when I try to pamper or comfort my little self, I realized there are things that I wished someone else could tell me/ did to me, when I was younger, but nobody did. I think I am reliving the childhood for a very long period of time, the loneliness, the scare, the threatening environment… I still want to get in touch with her… that urge, somehow, is still there… I actually don’t miss the actual ‘her’. I miss the image of her, the future that ‘her’ may have with me, the relationship that a ‘her’ could provide“-
– I think that the image of her is that someone else you wish was there for you during the loneliness, the scare, the threatening environment of your childhood. No wonder you still want to get in touch with the woman who represents this image.
There is still a lonely, scared, threatened girl within you looking to be saved..?
anita
September 19, 2024 at 9:54 pm #438246ChauParticipant<p class=”p1″>Dear Anita</p>
<p class=”p1″>Good to know you are well. Have more sleep if possible. and exercise and eat well. so you have more physical and mental energy for yourself snd those who need you.</p>
<p class=”p1″>yes i think she represents those inagines. but rather than making it so negatively, i think she represents a life that i aspire to have. having someone who is supportive, willing to stand by you, accepting and caring. realistically, i think she fails in reaching the standard i look for. nonetheless, i still miss the imagination/ image.</p>
<p class=”p1″>I was re reading some of our conversations recently. i didnt get it very well when you mentioned “breaking up with you is the solution”</p>
<p class=”p1″>when i sat on it again, i started to understand breaking up is the way out for her to escape her emotions. by breaking up with me and have a convenient reason/ more commonly agreed upon reason that she has lost feelings for me, this allows her to escape from me and thus no need to dig out the way she relates to me and others. thus no need to reflect. </p>
<p class=”p1″>it makes sense now that she was in such pain: she might not even want the break up to some extend. say i want to run a marathon and got cold feet and just say “ i am not interested its not for me” . this is a lie to myself and the negative feelings associated with me lying to myself, will unconsciously affect me. because what i said and did, was not genuine.</p>
<p class=”p1″>but of couse, the break up can also be something that she really wanted( then i also cannot fully explain why she is in such a pain after u get something that u realy want, anyways)</p>
<p class=”p1″>to answer your question: no i do no need for someone to save me. i think i would practice loving myself or my little self more so i feel the warmth and love from inside</p>
<p class=”p1″>Have a lovely day </p>
<p class=”p1″>Clara</p>September 20, 2024 at 5:49 am #438252ChauParticipantHi Anita
I just reposted this, the previous one has a lot of <P> and random alphabets, you can ignore he previous one, the following is the same, thanks.
Dear Anita
Good to know you are well. Have more sleep if possible. and exercise and eat well. so you have more physical and mental energy for yourself snd those who need you.yes i think she represents those inagines. but rather than making it so negatively, i think she represents a life that i aspire to have. having someone who is supportive, willing to stand by you, accepting and caring. realistically, i think she fails in reaching the standard i look for. nonetheless, i still miss the imagination/ image.
I was re reading some of our conversations recently. i didnt get it very well when you mentioned “breaking up with you is the solution”
when i sat on it again, i started to understand breaking up is the way out for her to escape her emotions. by breaking up with me and have a convenient reason/ more commonly agreed upon reason that she has lost feelings for me, this allows her to escape from me and thus no need to dig out the way she relates to me and others. thus no need to reflect.
it makes sense now that she was in such pain: she might not even want the break up to some extend. say i want to run a marathon and got cold feet and just say “ i am not interested its not for me” . this is a lie to myself and the negative feelings associated with me lying to myself, will unconsciously affect me. because what i said and did, was not genuine.
but of couse, the break up can also be something that she really wanted( then i also cannot fully explain why she is in such a pain after u get something that u realy want, anyways)
to answer your question: no i do no need for someone to save me. i think i would practice loving myself or my little self more so i feel the warmth and love from inside
Have a lovely day
ClaraSeptember 20, 2024 at 9:16 am #438262anitaParticipantDear Clara:
Thank you! Although I was up for a while in the early hours, I fell back asleep and had more sleep per night than I had in a long time.
“I was re reading some of our conversations recently… I started to understand breaking up is the way out for her to escape her emotions… this allows her to escape from me and thus no need to dig out the way she relates to me and others. Thus no need to reflect… say I want to run a marathon and got cold feet and just say ‘I am not interested its not for me’. This is a lie to myself and the negative feelings associated with me lying to myself, will unconsciously affect me. Because what I said and did, was not genuine“- Yes, I think that many people break up rather than reflect and change, so to avoid the pain, distress and hard work involved in reflecting and changing.
On the other hand, when a person gets cold feet and says running is not for me!– it may be true and genuine (not a lie) that the person doesn’t like the idea of running, not anymore.
“But of course, the break up can also be something that she really wanted ( then I also cannot fully explain why she is in such a pain after u get something that u really want, anyways)“- I am sorry to say (because it hurts you), but from the totality of what you shared about her words and behaviors, it seems to me that she really wanted the breakup.
As far as her being in such a pain, last you shared about it was on Sept 7: “So I texted her early this week… She suggested… to use a google form (to communicate in regard to the yoga studio, so that the two of you don’t meet there by accident). I thought it was a bit sad to revert to this, while I thought we could just text each other like normal interaction. So I counter suggested that I would just text her… Later that night I texted her… She… said she was too emotional still and was afraid if any of our conversation went sour, she could not handle, and so she wished to limit the interaction. She said I might think it’s easy for her to move on, but she was still in so much pain“- I am sorry to say this (again, because I think it hurts you..), but I think that the too emotional and so much pain are lies designed to make you feel less rejected by her, more empathetic to her, and therefore, less angry with her. I think that she is scared of you pursuing contact with her (texting, having conversations, and more), scared of your intensity (an intensity I noticed as a virtual 3rd party). She may be afraid that you will hurt her, that you will become a vindictive or vengeful ex.
The problem with these lies as that although it may calm you a bit (you thinking that she cares or cared so much for you, and will care again), long-term it keeps hope alive in you, and therefore, it keeps you from moving on. Best would be if you really no longer contact her, not for any reason. This is what she really wants, seems to me. I am sorry.
“to answer your question: no I do no need for someone to save me. I think I would practice loving myself or my little self more so I feel the warmth and love from inside“- there many books and workbooks, real paper or online, in regard to Inner Child Work, which are designed to help people feel the warmth and love from inside. I wonder if you did any such work using a workbook..? (I did: Homecoming: Reclaiming and healing your inner Child/ John Bradshaw)
anita
September 23, 2024 at 6:05 pm #438326ChauParticipantHi Anita
Thank you
I will check the book that you have recommended. I had a busy weekend and I joined a workshop, on how to connect with nature. Observe trees, meditate and do some grounding(imagine being a tree etc). Basically, communicate with trees. I found it quite fascinating as i did feel very energized afterwards. There were also letting go of thoughts and people or things that no longer serve you, some imaginative exercise, which i found it quite helpful also.
I think she really wanted to break up, maybe 80% of her wanted to break up. But i guess i had been probably clinging onto the 20% of it most of the time, especially in the beginning. If what you said were true, those are just lies(conscious/ unconscious) to make me feel more empathetic towards her/ calmer, I think she really needs therapies to deal with her stuffs. I think there is a difference between being empathetic and understanding when delivering messages which can be hurtful, and altering the result so that the person feels less as hurt/ sad(aka lie). This is a very ingenuine life that she is living, to herself and others, if this is how she is.
Take care
September 23, 2024 at 6:25 pm #438328anitaParticipantDear Clara: I will read and reply in the morning.
anita
September 24, 2024 at 8:32 am #438339anitaParticipantDear Clara:
“I think she really wanted to break up, maybe 80% of her wanted to break up. But I guess I had been probably clinging onto the 20% of it most of the time, especially in the beginning“-
– in the beginning of the break, you wrote about her (June 25): “she can’t figure out whether she still loves me or are we just ‘good friends’ who live together… This is just day 3 (of the break)”.
Three months later, there is no behavior on her part that comes close to being good friends: she doesn’t even want there to be any texting between the two of you (“She suggested some ways and one of which was just to use a google form… So I told her that may be, using google form is a better balance of what I want(attend classes) and what she needs(have limited/ no interaction), so at least she wouldn’t get a random text from me“, Sept 7).
You doubted her honesty regarding the break early on: “Doubting the intent of the break, she mentioned she needed time to clear her mind and ‘restart’, but sometimes I also double if she just wants to use this time to break up“, June 25.
People who want to break up from a partner are often dishonest in regard to the breakup:
Psychology today/Breakup Strategies: The Brave and the Cowardly: “Breakups are miserable. No one likes going through them, and no one likes putting their (ex-) partners through them. The idea of initiating a breakup is often threatening, even to people who are pretty certain that their relationship needs to end. This discomfort can sometimes lead people to use ‘soft’ or indirect breakup strategies… The use of such strategies only adds insult to injury for the rejected partner, who would have preferred that someone was more honest and direct with them. A painful breakup can thus be made even worse by the way it took place…
“In a paper published in 2012, Collins and Gillath highlight seven general strategies that people use to break up with a romantic partner, which range from direct and honest to, well, less so … 1. The open confrontation strategy is the most straightforward approach. A person openly communicates their desire to end the relationship, as well as their true reasons why.
2. The positive tone/self-blame strategy… This is the classic ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ approach… not entirely honest, as it often involves taking complete blame, concealing the true motives for breaking up (e.g., flaws in the partner), and generally trying to soften the blow and avoid hard feelings.
3. The de-escalation strategy essentially entails slowly back away from a relationship. Rather than ending things cleanly and directly, a person using this strategy will procrastinate, waiting for the ‘right time’…
4. The avoidance/withdrawal strategy is like de-escalation, but colder. A person will signal their lack of interest in the relationship by avoiding their partner, making excuses not to get together, no longer asking or providing favors, and withholding affection and intimacy.
5. The cost escalation strategy involves trying to get the partner to end the relationship. An individual will pick fights, be disagreeable or demanding, and generally make things miserable until the partner decides that it’s time for them to go their separate ways…
“Not surprisingly, Collins and Gillath found that people most prefer to be broken up with directly, with approaches like the open confrontation strategy. In contrast, people tend to experience more distress when they are broken up with indirectly, with approaches like the avoidance/withdrawal (strategy)…
“Collins and Gillath found that anxiously attached individuals were most likely to use the positive tone/self-blame and de-escalation approaches—strategies that help maintain the relationship with the ex-partner and that might leave the door open to get back together in the future. In contrast, avoidantly attached individuals were more likely to be indirect, with approaches like avoidance/withdrawal. Overall, feeling secure helps people to break up with their partners more directly and honestly, which ultimately proves to be more compassionate for the soon-to-be ex.”
The way she broke up with you definitely fits The avoidance/withdrawal strategy, signaling her lack of interest in the relationship way before the break, and the break itself was a month-long signal. And this strategy fits her attachment style. The article says: “avoidantly attached individuals were more likely to be indirect, with approaches like avoidance/withdrawal”, and on Aug 19, you wrote: “it seems to me that I am anxious attachment, and she is avoidance“.
She definitely didn’t break up with you the honest and direct way. She broke up with you over a long period of time, causing you much unnecessary waiting, distress and confusion. An example of your confusion: “I guess the whole thing is a bit out of my comprehension. I can’t figure out if she wants to break up, or if she wants to salvage the relationship(or any other motive). The actions do not add up” (July 2).
Back on June 27, you wrote: “I sometime have some overreacting and made her scared”, on July 2: “my reaction makes her feel she was at fault all the time”, on July 5: “she is very cautious of what I say and tip toes“, on July 21: “whenever I feel the possibility of being abandoned and the insecurity, I became angry and… made the close-one my enemy“- These are things that you need to continue to resolve so to have a future healthy relationship with a non- avoidant individual. Because a relationship with an avoidantly-attached individual, once there is any conflict, increases the anxiety of an anxiously-attached individual (you). And an avoidantly-attached individual is more likely to be dishonest and indirect when scared and tiptoeing around a person who overreacts.
Back to your most recent post: “If what you said were true, those are just lies (conscious/ unconscious) to make me feel more empathetic towards her/ calmer, I think she really needs therapies to deal with her stuff… This is a very ingenuine life that she is living, to herself and others, if this is how she is“- I think that there aren’t lots of people who live very genuine lives because of all the anxiety that’s going around, starting in our childhoods, and the ways we cope/ protect ourselves. It takes undoing unhealthy coping mechanisms and adopting healthy ways to protect ourselves.
In the case of the two of you, it’d take you learning further to not overreact (practice emotion regulation skills), and it’d take her to no longer.. under-reacting when it comes to honest and direct communication during conflicts, and instead: address and resolve conflicts early on, before she experiences burn-outs and quits (in the contexts of work and relationships)
“I had a busy weekend and I joined a workshop, on how to connect with nature. Observe trees, meditate and do some grounding (imagine being a tree etc.). Basically, communicate with trees. I found it quite fascinating as I did feel very energized afterwards“- trees do not overreact, do they? They react very slowly and gradually to various distresses. At this time of the year, not having enough water in the ground, they drop their leaves gradually, over a long while, not all at once, and they don’t panic and drop their branches.. they don’t overreact. And they are honest and direct: they don’t drop their leaves while hiding, and they don’t say: maybe I will drop my leaves, maybe I will not.. they just do.
Honesty and directness, when not delivered in a rude/ abusive way, is indeed fascinating and energizing!
anita
September 24, 2024 at 9:03 pm #438356ChauParticipantHi Anita
Thank you
This gave me another perspective. Whatever this is describing, fits what I am experiencing indeed.
It did create a lot of confusion, and unnecessary pain, for me on the receiving end of the break up. I am aware of my overreacting and insecurity/ attachment style. will continue to practice ways to make myself more stable and regulated.
I often treasures honesty and directness, I do not like to guess or beat around the bush. I often think this causes more harm. It is often because the person delivering the message does not have enough mental strength/ courage to deliver the message, at the cost of the peace of the recipient. I guess this is also how she draws further, as I often challenge her to talk/ face directly with the situations.
Thanks, I feel this is clearer again.
Clara
September 25, 2024 at 7:36 am #438364anitaParticipantDear Clara:
You are welcome! “I often treasures honesty and directness, I do not like to guess or beat around the bush. I often think this causes more harm. It is often because the person delivering the message does not have enough mental strength/ courage to deliver the message, at the cost of the peace of the recipient. I guess this is also how she draws farther, as I often challenge her to talk/ face directly with the situations“- very well said. She lacks the mental strength and courage required to be honest and direct with people in complicated matters, matters that involve conflict or some unpleasantness. (I assume she is honest and direct when it comes to simple matters like letting the employee at the ice-cream shop know the particular ice-cream flavors she wants).
A few months after you met her for the first time, on Oct 7, 2018, you shared: “I recently got quite close with a person, we have been talking mainly on texts for a few months… she had never disclosed that she had a girlfriend”. You were very distressed at the time about her not disclosing this to you. Now I understand why she didn’t: it was a complicated matter for her, she was conflicted about it.. so she was not honest about it. She hid this major part of her personal life.
This lack of honesty and directness has been part of her before the beginning of the relationship with you. It is how she operates.
anita
October 1, 2024 at 6:48 pm #438485ChauParticipantHello Anita
Hope you are well 🙂
Thank you. Yes it is how she operates, the more my distance with her grows, the more I can see it. Yes that is how the pattern is, and she is not able to form a good connection with me with this operational system
One thing that is bothering me recently: I am trying to adopt and so I went to the adoption centre for a few times. I have found one that interacted with me and I wanted to adopt her.
After completing the form, a sense of anxious and fear came up, lots of worries, such as would i be able to take care of her? What if I don’t like her after say one or two years, what if my future partner does not like her? What if my parents and she needs my care at the same time?
These made me so nervous that I was sleepless last night, and thought of withdrawing the application.
This reminded me last time, like what happened when i planned for my tattoo, i emailed that person, asked about all the details and was so scared that I didn’t do it.
I started to think this may be a pattern, but I don’t know how to name this.
Any thoughts?
Take care
October 2, 2024 at 8:14 am #438497anitaParticipantDear Clara:
You are welcome, and I am fine, thank you!
“One thing that is bothering me recently: I am trying to adopt and so I went to the adoption centre for a few times. I have found one that interacted with me and I wanted to adopt her. After completing the form, a sense of anxious and fear came up, lots of worries, such as would I be able to take care of her? What if I don’t like her after say one or two years, what if my future partner does not like her? What if my parents and she needs my care at the same time? These made me so nervous that I was sleepless last night, and thought of withdrawing the application. This reminded me last time, like what happened when I planned for my tattoo, I emailed that person, asked about all the details and was so scared that I didn’t do it. I started to think this may be a pattern, but I don’t know how to name this. Any thoughts?“-
– if you get a tattoo and then regret it, not liking or wanting it anymore, you will be stuck with it until and if you have it removed surgically (leaving a scar), or lightened by laser (multiple sessions, complete removal not guaranteed).
If you get a cat, and then regret it, not liking or wanting her anymore (because taking care of her, or just having her, will become too difficult or inconvenient in the case that you’ll need to take care of your aging parents as well, or if a future partner will not like her, etc.), you will be stuck with the cat until and if you find her a different home.
I think that being stuck with a tattoo or a cat that you no longer like or want on your body/ in your life is particularly distressing to you because as a child and an adolescent, you were stuck with people you no longer liked or wanted in your life (not in the ways they behaved). You were stuck with people who violated your boundaries, did not allow you privacy, and did not make it possible for you to feel comfortable, safe and carefree.
You were stuck with a father who was harsh and who did not allow you to be carefree because of his obsession with details. You were stuck with an uncle whose hug you.. didn’t want on your body (fast forward, not wanting to be stuck with a tattoo on your body). You were stuck with a mother who although not harsh, violated your privacy some, and did not protect you from the others who violated your boundaries in greater ways.
As a result, you grew up anxious. When recently, you anticipate the possibility of being stuck again (with a tattoo or a cat), you anxiety intensified.
* July 2, 2016: “Sometime my uncle whom I didn’t really liked hugged me hard, I guessed as a child u didn’t or couldn’t really resist or refuse. but I remember how much I hated ppl crossing my boundary… my dad on the other hand was very strict and I would even called him obsessed over tiny details… I remembered he as a very harsh person… one time when I was showering, my mom… went into the bathroom while I was taking a shower, I recalled I saw my uncle out there who saw me… I remember how my privacy was violated by the parents whom should protect them instead“.
anita
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