Home→Forums→Relationships→Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships
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December 5, 2023 at 12:21 pm #425850seaturtleParticipant
Dear Anita,
In response to your reply from 11:44am.
“Yes I suggested (couples therapy) back when we were living together, on multiple occasions and every time his response is ‘I am not going to talk to someone who doesn’t know me at all for advice.’“- yes, I remember now, you shared this before. His response suggests to me that he doesn’t WANT to be known (by someone who might get it right about who he is) because then he’d lose his power advantage.
-I don’t think so… I think he is afraid of being misunderstood by them and then being accused of being a bad guy.
“He is perhaps gaslighting himself and gaslighting you at the same time.”
I think this is true.
“If he resists your input, calling it wrong.. then he is closed to self reflection and positive change.”
I do need to make sure with him that he is open to positive change and self reflection. I mean he did tell me how to approach him, above when I mentioned him saying to talk to him with a non-emotional tone when he is being that way and he will do his best to answer, beginning some introspection.
“– You, Seaturtle, are an outside force to him and when in conflict.. he teflons you: he doesn’t let you- an outside factor- bother him.”
This is sad and I hope possible to change? I wonder if I show him that I am truly there for him and won’t leave him that he will be vulnerable enough with me to allow me to affect him, I know I already do to an extent. If I were to end things he would certainly be sad I know that, when I am disappointed in him for something he does care, then we get to an area of certain times I am bothered he does not care. But I think he is starting to care more and more, especially as I show him I am willing to work with him on these things and not give up, I could tell he felt connected to me last night when he saw that I wasn’t giving up on him after he told me all those issues he has with self/social awareness.
I wrote: “N brings the people around him up, I think? He encourages his friends and works with others very well. He tends to give more than he receives in his friendships, from my perspective, but he sees their value in a way I don’t”-
-I don’t think I meant for a question mark here, he does as far as I know is what I meant, as far as what I have seen and heard from his friends. his friends from back home are nothing but positive about N, they say “you got a good one” to me, I have heard this many times from various people in different places and occasions.
“I wonder why I was drawn to someone like this, I chose to be with N for so long“- because.. N is such an improvement over F, being the covert, milder form of gaslighter…?
-Probably yes.
On the frog and Scorpion story, I hope this isn’t the case.
I still don’t fully know what to do in the relationship, I definitely feel better that I know my feelings have not been wrong and that I have just been dealing with someone socially immature. Will this work? I do not know, but it is certainly better than him doing it on purpose with manipulative intentions. Is this Seaturtles journey? to help N? is that in or out of a relationship with him? Will I destroy his ability to be vulnerable with another if I abandon him… I see him as a delicate n now, and want to help him. I feel I have my power back and I am aware how it got taken away.
Seaturtle
December 5, 2023 at 12:27 pm #425851seaturtleParticipantAnita, do you think it is true that people can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves?
This would concern me, as I do want a deep relationship. Or could I just be deep within myself and not need that from a partner.
December 5, 2023 at 12:37 pm #425852anitaParticipantI am in the process of replying, Seaturtle.
anita
December 5, 2023 at 12:39 pm #425853seaturtleParticipantAnother small question, do you believe in aura colors and their alignment to the chakras? It is something I have only been slightly introduced to and am reading up on now, because a Reiki teacher told me my color and I just would like to sus out the validity.
December 5, 2023 at 1:09 pm #425858anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
“My, the night went differently than I could have expected!“- I didn’t read yet what’s to follow. I will guess as to what’s to follow: he appeared to be very understanding, he was calm and undisturbed by anything you said. He appeared to have validated your concerns and he has given you “positive bribery” that gaslighters give their gaslightees.
“he suggested a prompt for our date last night. 1-How will you change to better the relationship, 2-what do you appreciate about the other person, 3-how could the other person change to help you/the relationship.”-
– Remember that I suggested that you give him a list of 10 questions for him to answer on paper? I was going to look up online questions used in couple counseling. But I didn’t look it up. His prompt is TAKEN from a couple counseling exercise. He looked it up online.
“So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine and some appetizers”- a culinary positive bribery.
“He started, he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left!… I appreciated this answer“-emotional bribery.
“He said ‘I really like that you keep us present, even when we are doing nothing it is at least present with you.’ I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did“- emotional bribery in progress: he says what he knows you would like to hear, even if he doesn’t exactly understand what he is saying.
“I said: ‘When I was young, my dad gaslit be constantly… when you tell me the things I ‘worry’ about don’t matter, it is gaslighting… He went on to gaslight me again about this situation, he said ‘it was a joke‘ and I said ‘no it was not. It was not…” He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try“- the appearance of understanding.
He said ‘Do you think the victim is always right?‘…I said ‘Not necessarily but that is not what I am talking about. I am telling you that the cash situation was not a joke at all, it was serious, I did not feel anxious for no reason, you were investigating me’… he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all”- he is lying here, clearly LYING.
“I said… ‘it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across“- no, he was aware in the grocery store that he was suspicious of you and investigating you.
“I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest ‘ah ha’ moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times I thought he was being passive aggressive and said I was too sensitive… he seriously thought I was, he was not trying to deny my feelings… curious to hear your reply to this”-
– not only do I think that he’s gaslighting you, but I think that he is better at it that I thought. I am quite impressed by how skilled he is at this, and I am saddened by it.
In your most recent posts, you asked: “Is this Seaturtles journey? to help N?“- he is about helping himself to you via gaslighting.
“Anita, do you think it is true that people can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves?“- yes.
“This would concern me, as I do want a deep relationship. Or could I just be deep within myself and not need that from a partner“- I suppose you can co-exist with a partner like N and you can learn how to get along with him somehow, in some ways.. Get your spiritual needs met elsewhere, in a spiritual community of your choosing.
My closing input: I am closing my study of N this early afternoon. I am done understanding him. I am not confused about him. I am so sorry that he has been and still is gaslighting you. But what can I do..? You are very attached to him, very motivated to try to fix it. But you can’t fix blatant and deeply ingrained dishonesty.
You are welcome to post about N as much and as often as you’d like (here on this thread or in new threads), and maybe other members would like to discuss him with you. I will no longer read about him (what he says, what he does, etc.), and I will not discuss him with you because (1) I do not want his gaslighting input in my brain/ my life. (2) All that I can say about him, I already did. (3) There are sources online, and a book about gaslighting that may be useful to you. Plus individual therapy that perhaps you can access..?
I would very much like to communicate with you further, Seaturtle, just not about him.
* I just noticed that you posted again and NOT about him, excellent! So, my next post and all posts after will not be about N (relief!)
anita
December 5, 2023 at 1:15 pm #425859anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
“do you believe in aura colors and their alignment to the chakras?“- I don’t know anything much about it. I read about chakras but not much. If you want to, you can explain the topic to me (I will soon be away from the computer for a while).
anita
December 5, 2023 at 3:35 pm #425860seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I just read your reply, I will respect your request to not speak of N. I will let you know if things end, but that is it.
I am definitely taking what you say very seriously, and will further decide for myself and I appreciate your wisdom.
On the chakras and auras, I don’t have extensive knowledge, but I have been told I have a white aura, I read about it on https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-does-white-aura-mean-lowdown-on-this-rare-aura . It brought me some insight. I hope I find the clarity I need soon.
I hope we have further conversation soon,
Seaturtle and hatchling
December 5, 2023 at 5:29 pm #425869anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle and hatchling:
Thank you. I will read about chakras and auras in the morning, We can still talk about gaslighting in terms of Telling the difference between gut (truth/ honesty within you/ within me) and fear which often distorts the truth, and promotes dishonesty. I’ll see how chakras and auras relate to this in the morning.
anita
December 6, 2023 at 9:20 am #425881seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
After reading your reply yesterday, it made me take a harsh and objective look at my situation. At first I wanted to make sure that I was not just deciding in order to keep you in my life, I wanted to make sure the decision came to me. It did. I am ready to get rid of this poison in my life. It will be hard but I would love nothing more than to have your support, in a breakup plan and occasional journaling on here. I decided yesterday late evening about 3 hours after reading your reply, going back and forth about what was real and not real about the dinner discussion. I wanted to end it last night but the timing didn’t work, I have plans to do so at 5:30pm tonight, about 7 hours from now.
I told my roommate, M, and she said she will be there for me through this. I went to hot yoga this morning to get even more clear, thankfully I was able to get good sleep last night, aside from waking up with a headache, probably grinding my teeth in the night. I want to grow and handle this separation as healthily as possible, enough of my energy has been sucked away in trying to get the rose tinted goggles off my face, for this person. I am sad to lose a friend. I am going home to see my sister’s dance performance on Saturday and the timing couldn’t be better, as well as seeing family from the 20th-26th for Christmas.
If you would like to start helping me with a breakup plan it would be greatly appreciated, I have been preparing for this end for a long time, in a way, this whole past year, in moving out and also deciding to have a roommate incase this happened and I needed support. I have also written some affirmations already about how to not let myself go down intrusive thought paths.
Seaturtle and hatchling
December 6, 2023 at 9:41 am #425882seaturtleParticipantHow do you know if your crown chakra is blocked?When your crown chakra is blocked, you may experience some mental signs, including:- Confusion.
- A lack of connection to the world.
- Hyper spiritualization (i.e., too much meditation)
- Poor mental functioning.
- A lack of focus.
Anita, I don’t know if you remember but I used the word “confused” so many times in here and in my own head. Also the fact of Hyper spiritualization/ too much meditation is so true “please help me, my mind hasn’t rested in 8 months” I have been in a hyper meditative state for so long. I have noticed when I am alone my mind has a hard time stopping when I am just trying to relax. My lack of focus is very real too, ignoring some of my own needs and responsibilities to over-meditate.
Seaturtle
December 6, 2023 at 10:16 am #425885anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I am shocked to read bout your resolution. I didn’t read it all.. are you sure??? I am excited for you but also scared for you.. I will reply more, just wanted to write something as soon as I read most of your post just a moment ago.
anita
December 6, 2023 at 10:37 am #425886seaturtleParticipantYes I am sure. For the past year I have had doubts, but I didn’t see them at the root, instead I saw things such as what I said in my very first post on here. Those which seemed superficial, but were the tip of the iceberg. I have wanted to break up before but I kept thinking my reasoning was superficial, and now that I see it is much deeper, it is simply not the partnership I want for myself. I think this timing is right now, I have a supportive roommate and family visits this month, for Christmas I am asking for yoga classes and perhaps a membership, my dad can definitely afford if he sees the benefit for me. I know this evening will be hard, but whenever I have doubted my decision, I have quickly bounced back, I simply want a deeper more authentic connection that I cannot get in this current situation.
December 6, 2023 at 10:54 am #425887anitaParticipantGood to read this, Seaturtle! I am in the process of what seems like a long post for you.
anita
December 6, 2023 at 12:22 pm #425888anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I was fed up yesterday, fed up with N and his appearances/ pretenses and then The Lie that was clearly a lie. I didn’t want to hear (read) any more of his pretenses and lies and get stuck in a non-ending situation with you where you remain confused by his pretenses and lies, and me repeating myself in vain.
“It will be hard but I would love nothing more than to have your support, in a breakup plan and occasional journaling on here“- absolutely, you have my support. (I prefer communicating here because I spend the majority of my online time here and not on email, but I’m okay with you having my email address, and even my phone number… if I had a phone.. long story).
“I am ready to get rid of this poison in my life… enough of my energy has been sucked away in trying to get the rose tinted goggles off my face, for this person… I have been preparing for this end for a long time, in a way, this whole past year“-
– First, now that you intend to break up with him this evening, I want to go back to your yesterday post in effort to help you get even more clarity about things and be more prepared for this evening:
“My, the night went differently than I could have expected!“- you wrote this yesterday. Be prepared that once again, this evening, he will use his impressive gaslighting and other skills to throw you off your goal of breaking up with him. Be prepared that he will say things and employ appearances that you don’t expect. Better still, we can predict what he might say and do tonight, so that nothing is a surprise to you.
Coming to think about it, you don’t owe him to explain anything to him in-person. It will be perfectly fine if you explain things to him in-writing, an email, and avoid being exposed to gaslighting in-person.
Back to your yesterday’s post: “So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine“- no wine during a break-up meeting.. or weed, or any such drug.
“he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left!… and I appreciated this answer“- prepare for the possibility that he will flatter you and tell you very nice things about you and the positives you have had in his life (and still can have in the future), and otherwise say things that will make you feel good.
“I said ‘You encourage me to do what I love to do‘ and I had a second one ‘You are willing to try to communicate and don’t like going to sleep upset with each other‘, a few nights ago… he wanted to come over to cuddle up and I just appreciate that he likes to hug or be loving after an argument, it makes me feel safe”-
– prepare for the possibilities that he will repeat tonight what he knows (because you told him) that you like and that which makes you feel safe.. with him: encouraging you to do what you love to do, do his best (skilled yet insincere and manipulative) communicating, and offer to hug/ cuddle with you.
“He said ‘I really like that you...’ I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did”- be prepared to.. be suspicious of anything he says following the words I really like that you... I appreciate that you... etc., anything he says that flatters you.
“I was proud of myself though, because I was able to speak clearly and I did not allow him to gaslight me again, which he was trying to do. However…“- However… he ended up gaslighting you.
I was impressed yesterday, reading how clearly and intelligently you expressed yourself to him. Unfortunately, you were not a match to his manipulating skills. This happened last night. You may be successfully gaslit again tonight. This is why breaking up with him via email, not being exposed to his manipulating/ gaslighting skills, may be a good idea.
“He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try”- prepare for him to nod again, just at the right moment, and to seem/ appear to understand.
“End of our night he said something that made me really have a new perspective about everything”- End of the night, he successfully gaslit you.
“He said ‘Do you think the victim is always right?‘… I did not foresee this kind of questioning”– prepare for him to ask you a question or questions that are meant for him to take the lead of the conversation, leading you away from your goal and clarity and toward confusion and another successful gaslighting event.
“I said: ‘… you were investigating me‘. He shook his head no, he did not understand… I went on to tell him the gravity of gaslighting, after understanding that he genuinely did not socially understand… he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all”-
– he did investigate you and he did understand that he investigated you. By falsely and dishonestly claiming that he had no understanding that he investigated you, he places himself in the (false) position of an innocent child who needs an adult to explain basic things to him.
“I said ‘There’s multiple issues here, but it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across’“- you bought his false claim(that he is like an innocent child who needs to be taught) and you were, at this point, proceeding the way he wanted you to proceed.
“When I went on about this example he looked completely defeated, he said something along the lines of ‘I had no idea I came across that way.’… he looked completely stunned“- the deceit continues: the lies and the insincere appearance of being defeated and stunned. Expect lies and insincere appearances tonight.
“I genuinely believed him“- bingo, he got you, gaslighting mission accomplished!
“You are over here socially unaware of how you are coming across to me“- he is aware, very aware of how he comes across to you, so aware that he successfully plans and executes coming across the way he wants to come across to you. He is very good at it too, the reason that meeting him in-person for a breakup might be a bad idea.
“At this point we both had tears in our eyes“- be prepared for tears in his eyes, or for him trying to get his tears to flow.
I said ‘There can be a solution, but it has to be you increasing your awareness of how you are treating me so that you either stop…'”-
– based on his success in manipulating you, you figured here that the solution is not to break up with the manipulative adult in front of you, but to teach an innocent child (that he is neither) the basics of human interactions (while he is very aware of and skillful at human interactions.. the dishonest kind).
“He got quiet and looked in shock and defeated and hopeless“- he is an impressive performer. He got quiet because it unsettles you that he is quiet in this context.
“I said ‘babe you can’t shut down on me now‘ and he said he wanted to leave the restaurant”- anxious about him being quiet, threatened by it (fearing separation from him), he takes his threat further, threatening to leave.. you
“I hugged him“- threatened by his quietness and his gesture of leaving you, you hugged him, wanting to be connected to him, to not separate from him.
“he hugged me more delicately than he ever has, he didn’t even fully grab me, he just had one hand through my hair and the other lightly on my back, accepting my hug”- keeping you on your toes, not fully accepting you back into his life.
He said: “I don’t understand how to read people and I definitely did not understand body language for a long time and had to learn”- he learned a whole lot. He understands how to read people and body language very well, and he uses it so to his advantage at the expense of others.
“I don’t know how to behave, and I don’t know how to read other people’s behavior. I am retarded or something I don’t know.. I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest ‘ah ha’ moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times… I felt compassion… is this something I can love about him and help him?”-
– Gaslighting Mission Accomplished: he dishonestly presented himself as an innocent, helpless child who needs an adult’s help and you feel compassion for the alleged innocent and helpless child and want to help him, to teach him.
Sincerely, Seaturtle, he is very good at what he does and .. I don’t know how you can break up with him in-person.
For whatever it’s worth, regarding what to expect for him if you meet him for the purpose of breaking up with him: he will use against you the fact that (he knows that) you are emotionally very attached to him and that a big part of you does not want to break up with him, and he will once again get quiet, and maybe he’ll appear as if he is okay with you breaking up with him, just so to make you anxious and reverse your stated intent to break up with him.
You wrote today, Dec 6: “I wanted to end it last night but the timing didn’t work, I have plans to do so at 5:30pm tonight…. If you would like to start helping me with a breakup plan it would be greatly appreciated“- better that you break up with him via email where you explain to him that the reason you are not breaking up with him in person is not that you lack respect for him, but that you have too much respect for his dishonestly manipulative skills.
* About chakras and auras, tomorrow.
anita
December 6, 2023 at 5:21 pm #425891anitaParticipantI am thinking about you, Seaturtle at this time, nine minutes to 5:30. May the Force Be With You (taken from Star Wars.. in case you don’t know). Stick to your plan, and let me know how it goes…
anita
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