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Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships

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  • #423732
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    Yesterday morning, after reading the posts on this forum, I attempted a conversation with hatch. I told her I wanted to hear her, to come forward and I would not turn her away“- good job, Seaturtle!

    I am acting in a Play right now, a Shakespeare, it is my first time acting on a stage with other talented actors and people having to pay to come see it“- C o N g R a T u L a T i O n S  ! ! !

    Last night… hatch was desperate to feel accepted by the group I am working with…  I thought the answer to all this was to ignore it, but now I think maybe I have just been ignoring hatch?“- yes, do not ignore hatch. Continue to pay attention to how she feels, and when she feels anxious, comfort her. Take good care of her, according to what she needs at any one time.

    “I read about how important a parents consistent love is to our self esteem, and feel my hatchling was insecure about love”- she needs you to love her consistently.

    By allowing hatchling to surface, is it typical for insecurities to arise?“- yes.

    I truly thought they were solved but maybe I was just ignoring hatchling and the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me? I often feel my friends don’t care about me and do things without considering me .. and this is all being directed at N! what do you think about this?“- I am not clear about what you are asking here. Can you rephrase it clearly?

    I will look into ‘healing your inner child’ books“- don’t forget the workbooks which provide you with practical opportunities to communicate and interact with hatchling .

    Do most people just walk around with their inner child in a tamed cage?“- part of maturing is taming (effectively and kindly parenting) the inner child, so to not act impulsively when thoughtful action is the right thing to do, etc.. It’s the over-taming/ the imprisoning of the inner-child that is the problem.

    Will hatchling always be in a naïve insecure state? or can she be a mature (inner) child“-  the inner child stays the same (remember there is no Past for her: it’s always Present). It is the adult part of you that is able to perceive Past vs Present; it is the part that’s responsible for maturing, and it needs to guide, help and love hatchling, so that together you will have the best life experience that’s possible for you.

    Although I have work to do I feel like I just saw through a huge wall I felt was blocking me. I am eternally grateful to you! and myself!“- You are welcome and thank you!

    anita

    #423735
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Hi anita!

    Thank you for your support and congratulations 🙂 I am excited too!

    I truly thought they were solved but maybe I was just ignoring hatchling and the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me? I often feel my friends don’t care about me and do things without considering me .. and this is all being directed at N! what do you think about this?“- I am not clear about what you are asking here. Can you rephrase it clearly?

    -I read something on a different forum platform (Reddit), someone started a topic about not being able to receive love from her boyfriend, to help sort the two people in the discussion I will call the girl “Red” and the boy “Blue”.

    I am summarizing the parts of Red’s post that really resonated with me:  Red says “I was treated pretty badly throughout my school years and bullied in high school. I find myself having pretty low sense of self worth and I feel unlovable sometimes.” Red says “I don’t know how to accept his compliments; I say thank you, but on the inside I feel he is lying .. but I know rationally that isn’t true. I feel guilty and I feel like I need to pay him back in some way. I know people do nice things and I should just let them but I feel so guilt because I feel like I don’t deserve it.”  “These patterns kind of spill over into my platonic relationships as well. I find myself wanting to love others, but never wanting to be loved. I love spoiling my friends with small gifts and favors .. I feel like I can’t depend on people how they depend on me.” “People say I am not a bad person, but I can’t help but feel like I am a bad person on the inside and I just masquerade as a good friend, and eventually someone is going to rip off this mask that I have and discover the truth.”

    Red then receives a response that I found very helpful, Blue (the responder) was bullied as well and says ever since “I was playing a game of emotional catchup with self worth because everyone hated me.” For me, Seaturtle, it is not hate, instead it is people thinking I am awkward or too quiet, weird. Blue continues “So I thought I was just prone to receiving hatred because of who I was. I tried to get people to like me. It worked, but I kept them at an arms distance for sure and I never got better. I had to start letting people get closer and get to know me and not the smiley cardboard cutout of me. Many years later, I began to realize that I was not unlovable, it was that those kids couldn’t love others properly.” Blue continues “Understand that the guilt, anxieties of being a bad person, and secret lying are all a response to stressors and not the same as reality. It’s just your brain trying to defend you from people loving you.” “your brain currently thinks love and kindness is danger. Like whenever someone shows you love and you get that response of “wtf why are you doing this? I don’t deserve this” that’s a response to what your mind perceives as danger. Another tip is to remind yourself that when you’re receiving love, you’re not gonna die. It’ll retrain your brain and over time it’ll put love in the not danger category and you’ll get different reactions.”

    -This point hit me hard, when I said “my body’s learned response to love” this is where I got that idea. when I said “the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me?” I was referring to this idea of training my brain to put receiving love into a non-danger category.

    -When Red talks about ripping off a mask I feel the same way. In new social situations I feel like I have this false sense of confidence and someone will see beyond the mask and see how insecure/awkward/odd I am and that I am faking the confidence to fit in. I fear that if I allow people closer than an arms distance, they will see behind my mask and be disgusted and reject me.

    -My question is this, Is my brain defending me from love? Because if I am not able to see/receive love from others then I will be so thirsty for it that I demand it from my love partner.

    -I hope this clarified what I am getting at, as opposed to making it more confusing adding Red and Blue…

     

    “- part of maturing is taming (effectively and kindly parenting) the inner child, so to not act impulsively when thoughtful action is the right thing to do, etc.. It’s the over-taming/ the imprisoning of the inner-child that is the problem.”

    This is another question that I thought of last night, the difference between taming and over-taming hatchling. I suppose I will have to get to know hatchling more and what makes her feel ignored versus relaxed/tame?

    I wonder what hatchling is like when tame, it feels like she has been in a state of irritation this whole year and over-tamed before that.

    Thank you again Anita 💜

    Seaturtles

     

    #423740
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle: I will read and reply by Friday.

    anita

    #423761
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

    You are welcome!

    “I read something on a different forum platform…  when I said “my body’s learned response to lovethe real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love…  I was referring to this idea of training my brain to put receiving love into a non-danger category”-

    – I think that I get it now. I was perplexed yesterday in regard to the idea that love can be perceived as danger. Here is what I figure:

    This is what you wrote about your father: “if I wasn’t doing things to his standards I received a very cold version of him, versus his warm personality when I was doing something he defined as efficient and effective” (Oct 10).

    At one point on, in your child’s mind, these two versions of your father mixed, so when he gave you his very cold (angry, disapproving) version, you felt badly, and when he gave you his warm (affectionate, approving) version, you felt either a mix of good and bad, or you just felt badly.. or indifferent. But you didn’t feel good because his very-cold-version was pre-imprinted in your brain  Fast forward, when someone gives you love, in your mind, you are experience the mix that you received in childhood.

    And so, it is not love that you are rejecting, but the mix of love and disapproval/ anger.

    I fear that if I allow people closer than an arms distance, they will see behind my mask and be disgusted and reject me“- from one point on, when your father gave you his warm version, you knew it was only a matter of time before he gives you his cold version, and because a parent is a figurative mirror to the child, you figured that he was only reacting to.. two versions of you: the Approved Version (the mask) and the Disapproved Version (underneath the mask).

    My question is this, Is my brain defending me from love?“- no, the brain defends itself from anger and disapproval, not from affection and approval.

    I will have to get to know hatchling more…“- yes, get to know her more. It will make a huge, positive difference in your life!

    anita

    #423802
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “But you didn’t feel good because his very-cold-version was pre-imprinted in your brain  Fast forward, when someone gives you love, in your mind, you are experience the mix that you received in childhood.”

    this makes sense.

    I am at my boyfriends parents house right now, we got here just early this morning after a 3 hour flight. Before I met him to leave for the airport I woke up early and mediated, I wanted to be there for my partner this weekend. As I know it brings up things for me when I visit home. Anyways I was feeling good this morning but then I got to his house and about 3 hours in feel exhausted. I asked him if we could go on a walk, hoping to feel connected to him and for it to remind me of why I am doing this, because I love him. We go on a walk and he begins exploring the outdoors and starts leading me down this very torn up valley of dead trees, hard to walk through and calls me a baby for complaining about the mud and the “trail” that had clearly been just destroyed. I don’t know if it was all the dead trees or the complete lack of his attention (not sure why I felt I needed it so bad), as I kept having to remind him not to keep walking so far infront of me as I stumbled, but I became so anxious. I was overwhelmed about having to go back inside to socialize, I was tired and felt like I was complaining to him. I truly don’t like his parents relationship, they are so passive aggressive and constantly hurting eachother and just moving past it. They have no shared hobbies and pretty much live separate lives sad the other won’t join them. Anyways, I feel bad for being anxious and complaining to him, because I wanted to be there for him! I feel selfish as if I made his trip home to his family about me. I don’t know why I did this, I have felt disconnected with him ever since we got here and I want to understand why and find out how to ease this anxiety. We are sleeping separately here and so I have some space tonight and tomorrow morning to try to get my mind right. But I feel stumped and disappointed in myself.

    with love
    seaturtles

    #423808
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    “I asked him if we could go on a walk, hoping to feel connected to him and for it to remind me of why I am doing this, because I love him. We go on a walk and he begins exploring the outdoors and starts leading me down this very torn up valley of dead trees, hard to walk through and calls me a baby for complaining about the mud and the ‘trail’…  I kept having to remind him not to keep walking so far in front of me as I stumbled...  I truly don’t like his parents relationship, they are so passive aggressive and constantly hurting each other…  pretty much live separate lives I have felt disconnected with him ever since we got here and I want to understand why and find out how to ease this anxiety”-

    – Continuing the inner-child theme (“N” is your boyfriend the adult, “n” is the child that he was/ his current inner child), what probably happened is that once he spent enough time in the company of his parents, in their home, his childhood experience was triggered/ became alive in his mind and heart, and N became n: a hurt, sad, angry boy, very distressed by his parents hurting each other passive-aggressively and living separate lives. Very distressed, he led you to a scene that resembles his childhood experience, “down this very torn up valley of dead trees, hard to walk through.. (no) ‘trail‘”.

    In his childhood, there was no trail/ no guidance for n. He felt down and dead and torn up as he witnessed his parents fighting. it was hard for him to walk through his lonely childhood, from one hour/ one day to the next. He felt disconnected from everyone.  Walking with you down the valley, n (for whom there is no Past vs Present) felt angry at you and disconnected from you, and consequently,  you felt disconnected from him.

    It’s like he took you for a walk down the valley of his childhood, showing you how it was for him, how he stumbled with no one in front of him to guide him, with no clear path ahead.

    anita

    #423867
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I apologize for my later response, my trip to see my partners family was consuming in many ways and I am just now reading this response. The following day him and I stayed at an aribnb together for a friends wedding (the main reason we went on the trip) and I just wanted to do my best to be present and not make the drive about me, which I inevitably would have done if I saw a response from you, I would have needed to express it to him, but I did not want to overwhelm him with my feelings.

    I am now reading your response.

    Wow your view of what happened is very perceptive and I appreciate it so much. I now wish I had read it before so I could have better seen the hurt n. I completely blamed myself for feeling disconnected. I thought perhaps his parents relationship scared me and made me hyper aware of any sort of disconnect on his end, which it probably did which exacerbated my feelings when he disconnected from me. When I feel disconnected from him I tend to think something is either wrong with me or the relationship, but if the disconnect is happening from his end, how to I detect and remedy this?

    This explains why when we left to go to our airbnb, after a bit of disconnect remaining between us on the drive over, as soon as we got to the cabin, and I mean AS SOON AS we got there, I felt more connected to him than ever. We had such a bonding moment where I believe we both felt very safe. We cuddled on the couch, then I gave him a haircut for the wedding and we got ready together. We again were connected the next morning and through our whole drive home, even at his parents house, but then after dinner had another disconnect (I will share in the paragraph after next)

    There was however another issue I had, it wasn’t between US it was, I am pretty sure, between seaturtle and hatchling.. While we were getting ready for the wedding, I tried on the dresses I brought. I couldn’t afford a new one and my only option were a couple in my closet I hadn’t worn before or in a long time. I tried on all three and did not feel confident. I thought about how I would be compared with the other women there .. I am not proud of this and new it was not a helpful thought but I felt it very deeply. I then also forgot my regular makeup essentials. After this final straw I broke down into tears and thought I couldn’t go. I had thoughts like “N will be attracted to another girl and I won’t compare,” “His friends won’t think I am good enough looking for him.” I should mention, this was a wedding for one of his highschool friends and were all going to be people from his past I had never met. I was actually terrified on the inside to run into an ex girlfriend of his or someone he had a crush on. My head spun with thoughts of comparison with those girls as well and for some reason, hatchling thought she would literally just die if there was a scenario where he had an ex/crush there that I thought was prettier than me.. I feel very vulnerable sharing this because I am not proud of my insecurities, I am not sure why they occur either. I wish I had my head high enough to not be bothered by such superficial little things. In the end, N was really there for me and helped me through the panic attack and I felt strong enough to finish getting ready and make it work. Once I arrived at the wedding I instantly felt safer as I met his friends and did not feel less than them or judged negatively for the way I looked and behaved. I enjoyed the rest of the wedding. However, a voice remains in my head even now, “If you WERE faced with someone who made you feel inferior physically or behaviorally, you would have been crushed with anxiety.” …

    The next day our drive home was lovely and we stopped for breakfast and had some very engaging conversation and I learned some new things about N. I love how he pays attention to world affairs and has such a level head about what is happening around him. It makes me feel safe. It also intrigues me because I do want to know about those things too and look forward to more of those conversations. Once we got back to his parents house I still felt connected to him up until after dinner and we started playing a board game with his mom, it was late and N did say later he was tired and trying to end the game already, but this is what happened: We were playing a game where we all have to sort of build something and the person that does the best in many ways wins, however you can’t win if you don’t at least complete what you build. I wasn’t very good at it, but his mom said that she goes easy on people who haven’t played and typically will at least give everyone the time to complete their building. It was the end of the game and N’s mom was about to win but she put off winning so that I, the last one to finish, could complete my building. But then N comes in and finishes his, ending the game, leaving me unfinished. When I looked at him he had a straight face with a “sucks to suck” attitude. I asked him to not do that so I could finish but he continued to do so with no sort of playful smile or anything. This hurt me deeply .. I am not saying these are rational feelings, infact I know they aren’t but in that moment I felt he didn’t love me, didn’t see me, didn’t care about me or my feelings, I felt like he completely abandoned me. I held back tears. He then left the table to go outside to probably smoke (weed) with his dad and I was left at the table sad and alone with his mom just holding back all my feelings. That night he came to tuck me into bed and I was too afraid to start the conversation about my pain, I was too afraid of him denying my feelings and I knew how badly that would hurt me so I ignored the feelings and we snuggled before he went to his bed downstairs.

    Next day we drive to the airport. My feelings about the night before caught me by surprise again while we were waiting to board the plane. A family next to us were playing a game, maybe that is what reminded me Im not exactly sure. Anyways I can’t hold back this time so I tell N how I felt about the way the game ended. He said that my feelings were not warranted for the actions that he did. He said what he did should not lead to my reaction. I told him he didn’t understand my trauma of feeling betrayed by a teammate (life teammate, we were not on a team in the game). He said he felt hurt that I didn’t know what it felt like to be on opposite teams of a friend you have to play against, as he experienced that a lot in football and knew it wasn’t easy. I told him there should be a better way to play games together, that he should be able to be kind to me while playing with me and that there should be guidelines between us. I told him we should never be the one to screw the other person over. It is ok if you/your team wins but there is a kinder/ more loving way to do it, I wanted him to let me at least finish building as he would have still one, but I felt what he did was rude. to this he responded with laughter like I was completely rediculous for calling him rude about a game. He said “it’s just a game” MULTIPLE times, but this only made me feel invalidated cause obviously I was expressing feelings that went beyond a game. To which he responded “so then it sounds like we just can’t play games together because you can’t be a good sport.” I literally wanted to strangle him when he said this, my body was so uncomfortable I felt like I could burst with energy and run a 5k. We did resolve this conversation, I think (although as I write this it still upsets me ..). When I told him that having all those uncles growing up, like 6 older brothers I was bullied in games, they would gang up on me and cheat so that I always lost, if I was about to win they would cheat, sometimes they were just better and won without cheating but again I was like 8 and they were 13-20 years old making an 8 year old feel slow and stupid. My siblings and I literally can’t play games with my dad anymore without witnesses, because he would change rules to fit him and have these rational reasons as to why all his rules made sense. He NEVER let us win. We would be crying at the games and my mom would actually call him a bully to which he just said we needed to learn… I tried to express to N that I was bullied in games growing up but even those words coming out of my mouth made me feel stupid like “can I really not handle a game?” anyways when I told N I felt unloved, abandoned and like he was like one of my uncles who teamed up on me while I was abandoned and left alone to fight an army, he comforted me. N told me that he was always on my side and that he loved me, this melted me into tears… It is all I needed to hear to feel safe again. But there is still a part of me, I realized as I wrote this, that just wants him to be “nicer” to just ME, his life teammate, when it comes to games. and I think we still disagree here and I am scared to revisit it and be told he won’t do it or it’s just on me to be less sensitive.

    Anita, this response came flowing through me at my computer. I feel more in tuned with my feelings than ever before and I have a fear you will tire of this forum, but I want you to know it is so helpful to me and I really appreciate you. I look forward to your response, hopefully ❤️

    With love,

    Seaturtle & hatchling

    #423871
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle & hatchling:

    I apologize for my later response, my trip to see my partner’s family was consuming in many ways and I am just now reading this response“- I understand. I wanted to send you a how-are-you inquiry earlier, but figured you are probably busy with the challenging visit and long flight back to AZ. (I was concerned about your relationship).

    The following day him and I stayed at an Airbnb together for a friend’s wedding (the main reason we went on the trip) and I just wanted to do my best to be present and not make the drive about me, which I inevitably would have done if I saw a response from you, I would have needed to express it to him, but I did not want to overwhelm him with my feelings“- E x C e L l E n T    Choice on your part, I am (yet again) impressed with you!

    I am now reading your response. Wow your view of what happened is very perceptive and I appreciate it so much. I now wish I had read it before so I could have better seen the hurt n“- you didn’t know what my reply would be back then, so .. still an excellent choice.

    “I completely blamed myself for feeling disconnected”- please don’t blame yourself for feeling anything: happy, sad, hurt, angry, jealous, envious, etc. Feelings just happen; you don’t choose them. No Choice=> No Guilt.

    When I feel disconnected from him I tend to think something is either wrong with me or the relationship, but if the disconnect is happening from his end, how to I detect and remedy this?“- feeling disconnected from one’s partner on occasion is normal. No two people remain close to each other to the same extent at all times. If you don’t get alarmed by this fact of nature.. you won’t feel alarmed on top of feeling disconnected.

    In the scenario you described, that walk in nature, what I would have done in your shoes would be to gently, kindly invite N to talk about how he was feeling, if he wanted to. If he said no, or ignored my invitation. I’d just endure the walk and try to be calm about it (not taking his disconnected/ angry behavior personally).

    As soon as we got to the cabin, and I mean AS SOON AS we got there, I felt more connected to him than ever. We had such a bonding moment where I believe we both felt very safe. We cuddled on the couch, then I gave him a haircut for the wedding and we got ready together. We again were connected the next morning and through our whole drive home, even at his parents house“- I am so glad to read this (like I wrote in the beginning of this post, I was worried).

    “There was however another issue I had, it wasn’t between US it was, I am pretty sure, between seaturtle and hatchling.. While we were getting ready for the wedding, I tried on the dresses I brought…  and did not feel confident. I thought about how I would be compared with the other women there .. I am not proud of this and new it was not a helpful thought but I felt it very deeply.. thoughts like “N will be attracted to another girl and I won’t compare”-

    – like I wrote earlier in this post, feelings just happen: No Choice=>No Guilt. I am adding: No Choice=> No Shame (regarding feelings like envy, jealousy, anger, etc.)

    * The way I am answering your post is I read one part, reply, then read the next part, etc., and so, I didn’t yet read the rest of your post except for its ending. I am so tired and I want to continue to read and reply.. probably better that I do Wed morning. Good to read back from you, Seaturtle and hatchling, love back to the two of you!

    anita

    #424419
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “I understand. I wanted to send you a how-are-you inquiry earlier, but figured you are probably busy with the challenging visit and long flight back to AZ. (I was concerned about your relationship).”

    Thank you for understanding and I really feel your concern and thank you for that as well. I was concerned too. Feeling not only disconnected but then those hopeless thoughts of “will this ever end?” “how many more times will I feel like this with him, is it going to be the majority of our relationship?” “can I handle this?” The fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to me.

    “In the scenario you described, that walk in nature, what I would have done in your shoes would be to gently, kindly invite N to talk about how he was feeling, if he wanted to. If he said no, or ignored my invitation. I’d just endure the walk and try to be calm about it (not taking his disconnected/ angry behavior personally).”

    I hope to be able to do this in the future. I wasn’t aware at the time that he was the cause of the disconnect, I thought it was me. Perhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?

    “– like I wrote earlier in this post, feelings just happen: No Choice=>No Guilt. I am adding: No Choice=> No Shame (regarding feelings like envy, jealousy, anger, etc.)”

    I am trying to visualize if this would have helped me in that moment. To say to myself “these feelings are not my fault.” Does that give the feelings less power? I just wonder where these insecure feelings stem from so that I can pull it out by the root. Or is experiencing these feelings simply human and will always be there, it’s just a matter of how loud you let them be?

    Thank you for your concern about my relationship it feels so nice, and gives me hope, to have someone hearing and seeing me ❤️

    Seaturtle & hatchling

    #424421
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

    I will continue to read one part, respond, then read the next part, etc. (the usual way I reply), so, I’ll start with the rest of your yesterday’s post:

    hatchling thought she would literally just die if there was a scenario where he had an ex/crush there that I thought was prettier than me“- for a little girl, a young child (hatchling), a scenario where a parent abandons her for another child (a prettier child, a smarter child, etc.) means death. Imagine a fawn (a baby deer) abandoned by her mother: with no one to feed her and protect her from predators.. the fawn will die.

    Back to what you shared earlier about your father’s “love”: “I didn’t receive unconditional love from my father… If I wasn’t doing things to his standards, I received a very cold version of him, versus his warm personality when I was doing something he defined as efficient and effective”- being “loved” so conditionally means that.. if another child did things to his standard, your father would have chosen to “love” and care for that child, and not for you.

    Fast forward, projecting your father into your boyfriend, you fear being abandoned by him for another young woman.. one who is more to his (N’s) standards, and the fear feels like the fear of death.

    In the end, N was really there for me and helped me through the panic attack and I felt strong enough to finish getting ready and make it work. Once I arrived at the wedding I instantly felt safer as I met his friends and did not feel less than them…“- yet another testimony to N being a good boyfriend, a good partner for you.

    I love how (N) pays attention to world affairs and has such a level head about what is happening around him. It makes me feel safe“- I can’t think of a better partner for you.

    “Once we got back to his parents’ house I still felt connected to him up until after dinner and we started playing a board game with his mom… then N comes in and finishes his, ending the game, leaving me unfinished. When I looked at him he had a straight face with a “sucks to suck” attitude…. in that moment I felt he didn’t love me, didn’t see me, didn’t care about me or my feelings, I felt like he completely abandoned me“-

    -if a fawn is completely abandoned by her mother the deer, the fawn will die. If a young child is completely abandoned by parents, the fear is the same, it is an instinctual animalistic fear. Hatchling grew up with this instinctual fear being triggered. She is still afraid of being completely abandoned.

    Objectively, N ending the game when he did, and the way he did, was not abusive or even rude, in my estimation. Subjectively, it felt terrible to hatchling because she is so very sensitive to any event that, to her,  has a taste of abandonment, no matter how vague, weak, or minor.. or non-existent the taste is in objective terms.

    For hatchling, any taste of abandonment from someone she needs emotionally (N), is a clear-and-present danger, strong and major.

    “Next day we drive to the airport… so I tell N how I felt about the way the game ended. He said that my feelings were not warranted for the actions that he did. He said what he did, should not lead to my reaction. I told him he didn’t understand my trauma… He said ‘it’s just a game’ MULTIPLE times, but this only made me feel invalidated cause obviously I was expressing feelings that went beyond a game. To which he responded ‘so then it sounds like we just can’t play games together because you can’t be a good sport.’ I literally wanted to strangle him when he said this, my body was so uncomfortable I felt like I could burst with energy and run a 5k”-

    -like I said at the start of this post, I read and respond to one part before reading the next part. So, as you can see in my previous response, I (still) don’t think that his behavior in regard to the game was objectively rude, and I agree with him otherwise: your feelings/ emotional reactions in regard to the game were about hatchling’s trauma/ fear of abandonment (which took hold way before you ever met N), and therefore, it is not about N’s actions.

    Your anger toward N was misdirected: he is not responsible to what happened to hatchling, and her resulting trauma.

    “When I told him that having all those uncles growing up, like 6 older brothers I was bullied in games… I tried to express to N that I was bullied in games growing up…  when I told N I felt unloved, abandoned and like he was like one of my uncles who teamed up on me while I was abandoned and left alone to fight an army, he comforted me. N told me that he was always on my side and that he loved me, this melted me into tears… It is all I needed to hear to feel safe again“- more evidence that N is a good person and a good partner for you. Even though he is not responsible for what your uncles did and how they played games (way before he ever entered your life), he comforted you anyway. I am very impressed.

    “But there is still a part of me, I realized as I wrote this, that just wants him to be ‘nicer’ to just ME, his life teammate, when it comes to games. and I think we still disagree here and I am scared to revisit it and be told he won’t do it or it’s just on me to be less sensitive”-

    – N can’t be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling, nor can he be nice enough to change the conditional “love” of your father, and turn it into an unconditional love. Your healing may require quality professional therapy.

    Your post today: first, you are welcome!

    Those hopeless thoughts of ‘will this ever end?’ ‘how many more times will I feel like this with him, is it going to be the majority of our relationship?’ ‘can I handle this?’“- these triggering events (like the game) and the distressing thoughts and emotions that accompany these events will happen again. You need as much emotional healing as possible for you, so to be triggered less and less.. so to talk sense to yourself and comfort yourself when these events happen. You can handle triggering events when you are able recognize them for what they are as they happen, and regulate your emotions the best you can, lowering the intensity of your distress so that you are not overwhelmed.

    The fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to me“- I am not sure I understand this part, but I’ll say this: N is not Perfect, but reads to me that he is..  close enough to it (and nobody is perfect). He makes mistakes and he will make mistakes in the future.

    I don’t think that he made mistakes while playing the game, the way he ended it. You will need to be able to distinguish between his real mistakes and what only feels to you like mistakes.

    Perhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?“- you asked this in regard to the unpleasant walk in nature when taking a break from being in the distressing company of his parents. I suggest that you ask him this if and when he brings up the topic of his parents.

    To say to myself ‘these feelings are not my fault.’ Does that give the feelings less power?…  Or is experiencing these feelings simply human and will always be there, it’s just a matter of how loud you let them be?“-

    – reading this I am again reminded of how intelligent you are, and I am yet again impressed by you (!). My answers to both questions is Yes: (1) Telling yourself (the truth) that your feelings are not your fault (not your choosing) will give them less power because shame and guilt will be peeled off from them, and so, their intensity will significantly lessen, (2) Experiencing these feelings is human and there will always be feelings that are uncomfortable to feel, but you can lower the intensity of these feelings via emotion regulation skills, which means to indeed lower their volume.

    “I just wonder where these insecure feelings stem from so that I can pull it out by the root“- hatchling already told you and she has more to tell you, but be gentle about pulling the feelings out by the root.. hatchling needs you to be gentle with her. Every one of her feelings carries a message with it. It is only after you thoroughly heard each message, that each feeling- having served its purpose- will.. no longer be there to distress you.

    anita

    #424741
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “for a little girl, a young child (hatchling), a scenario where a parent abandons her for another child (a prettier child, a smarter child, etc.) means death” “Fast forward, projecting your father into your boyfriend, you fear being abandoned by him for another young woman.. one who is more to his (N’s) standards, and the fear feels like the fear of death.”

    I think back to my childhood, I am the oldest of four and I always did everything I could for my dads approval, I dedicated myself to a sport, which I did have fun with, but I also never thought there was another option, it just never occurred to me, it was to just keep getting better and I found satisfaction in the improvement I saw in myself. I did take a-lot from it, hard work does get you results, I did intense workouts every day that he would ask me about at every dinner. Many days I of course wanted to skip a workout and didn’t but I didn’t because I wanted to be able to say yes when he asked me at dinner. I eventually did get in very good shape, which helped me feel more confident in my sport. He complimented my physic, I will never forget him commenting how fit I looked in the “love-handle” area while at the beach in Hawaii, I remember feeling odd about it but also satisfied that he was proud. This to say, I did “follow the rules” of his conditional support, in fact I feel the sister I had a bad relationship for a while with, resented me because I was setting a lofty expectation that she felt short of. I was the one chose over her… so it is interesting to me that I still fear not being “the chosen one.” It is almost like since I WAS, now I can’t not be.. that feeling of “death” is so real, it truly is that intense. Is the solution here also emotion regulation skills?

    “I can’t think of a better partner for you.”

    This is very sweet, thank you 🙂

    “Hatchling grew up with this instinctual fear being triggered. She is still afraid of being completely abandoned.” … “Objectively, N ending the game when he did, and the way he did, was not abusive or even rude, in my estimation. Subjectively, it felt terrible to hatchling because she is so very sensitive to any event that, to her,  has a taste of abandonment, no matter how vague, weak, or minor.. or non-existent the taste is in objective terms.” … “For hatchling, any taste of abandonment from someone she needs emotionally (N), is a clear-and-present danger, strong and major.”

    Making note of this.

    “– N can’t be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling, nor can he be nice enough to change the conditional “love” of your father, and turn it into an unconditional love. Your healing may require quality professional therapy.”

    My first and only therapist that I have had was quality but her way of doing things was very hands off, she was awesome and her method worked for that time of my life where I was being awakened, but now I would like more intense therapy where someone can actually give me the type of insight that you do. Rather than just sort of having someone who just listens, with very light amount insight/advice. What type of therapy would you recommend?

    The fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to me“- I am not sure I understand this part, but I’ll say this: N is not Perfect, but reads to me that he is..  close enough to it (and nobody is perfect). He makes mistakes and he will make mistakes in the future.

    – By this I meant, N is not aware that being at his parents house caused him to feel the same as when he was a child. He is not aware, that going on that little hike, on that torn up trail where I felt disconnected from him, has to do with something going on inside of him.      Before I saw your comment:

    (“Perhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?“- you asked this in regard to the unpleasant walk in nature when taking a break from being in the distressing company of his parents. I suggest that you ask him this if and when he brings up the topic of his parents.”)

    I actually asked him this morning, how he has felt since the trip or reflected on how he felt back at his parents, and he just said “I enjoyed it and didn’t feel badly there this time..” As I am really putting effort into how I feel and why, I have this feeling like he is not on that same path and I have a desire for him to be on it too. I want him to be aware of his feelings on that torn up path, and I want him to be aware that he disconnected from me there. I know he is amazing and not perfect, so I don’t want to have unrealistic expectations, but I can’t help but crave the same self awareness.

    My rational self, outside of the feeling, can see that he didn’t do anything wrong in the game situation. When you said N can’t be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling” I can see how this can be true, but unfortunately I don’t think my feelings follow my rationale here. When I read this there is a part of me that understands and a part of me, I am assuming hatchling, who still believes he can be nice enough to heal me … I don’t necessarily believe it, but I feel it, if that makes sense. It is an interesting feeling to feel split internally here.

    “(2) Experiencing these feelings is human and there will always be feelings that are uncomfortable to feel, but you can lower the intensity of these feelings via emotion regulation skills, which means to indeed lower their volume.”

    This is so interesting because it goes along with my internally split feelings, like I mentioned just before. It’s like when I am in the emotion I can see it overpowering me, I can’t escape it cause I don’t yet have the tools, but I find myself searching for tools when I am in the emotion. I realize there is a lack of emotional regulation skills while in it and it can be a very paralyzing place to be.

    “hatchling’s trauma/ fear of abandonment (which took hold way before you ever met N), and therefore, it is not about N’s actions.”

    I am circling back to this, you mentioned much earlier in your last post, but it stuck with me. When you used the analogy of a fawn and her mother and abandonment = death, it got me wondering where exactly this fear of abandonment is from. These are my two hypotheses:

    My dad did was not really ever emotionally there. But as far as physical abandonment, he did move out, and into a hotel after my moms final time cheating on him. I of course understood because I knew why he was leaving and I actually agreed with it, I would have done the same. So I don’t think I felt abandoned, but maybe I felt it was unfair I was left with her and he didn’t take me. Once he got a house, about 6 months later I decided to move in with him.

    My mom was emotionally in and out, she had a drinking problem, I found out later. She always had a glass of wine in her hand, it never made her aggressive with us, infact she was perhaps too clingy to us with it, she would get extra affectionate. But her wine self is almost like an inauthentic affection feeling .. Then when I moved out with my dad, I left her, so she didn’t abandon me? In fact she reached out to me all the time but I did not respond to her for about a complete year. After a year I ended up spending alot of time with her cause I missed her, then the time with both my parents started to sway back and forth, depending on where I felt more free. I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad.

    “hatchling needs you to be gentle with her. Every one of her feelings carries a message with it. It is only after you thoroughly heard each message, that each feeling- having served its purpose- will.. no longer be there to distress you.”

    I assume I will just know when this message is received. I do wonder though, are the messages sort of like realizations of the true reason hatchling is afraid, mixed with some awareness as to why it is a fear that is not helpful .. ? This is an abstract thought that, if true, I have felt before, but can’t pin my finger on what scenario exactly I have felt this before.

    Always with Love

    Seaturtle & hatchling

    #424745
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle and hatchling: I will read and reply Fri morning,

    anita

    #424763
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

    You are welcome and thank you for your appreciation and kind words!

    He complimented my physic, I will never forget him commenting how fit I looked in the ‘love-handle’ area while at the beach in Hawaii, I remember feeling odd about it but also satisfied that he was proud“- there was a touch of incest, covert incest, in his comment. So, you felt odd about it, a mix of odd and proud.

    “Is the solution here also emotion regulation skills?”- practicing emotion regulations skills regularly makes it possible to come up with effective solutions to real-life problems. In other words, you have to lower your stress level regularly and feel confident in your ability to do so, in order to think clearly throughout the steps it takes to solve problems effectively.

    What type of therapy would you recommend?“- the type I had in 2011-13: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with a strong touch of Mindfulness.

    (I am the one adding the boldface feature to the following quotes selectively):

    “N is not aware that being at his parents house caused him to feel the same as when he was a child… I actually asked him this morning, how he has felt since the trip or reflected on how he felt back at his parents, and he just said ‘I enjoyed it and didn’t feel badly there this time..‘”- he said this time, meaning that at other times he felt badly… If that’s what he meant (without necessarily meaning to express it to you), then he is aware of feeling badly when in his parents’ home.

    It may be that he told you that he didn’t feel badly this time because he didn’t want to talk about it yesterday’s morning.

    As I am really putting effort into how I feel and why, I have this feeling like he is not on that same path and I have a desire for him to be on it too. I want him to be aware of his feelings on that torn up path… I can’t help but crave the same self awareness“-

    – it is unrealistic and unfair, really, to expect the same awareness from a person who had a different childhood from yours. Something about your childhood was positive enough to make it possible for you to have the level of awareness that you do today. Maybe he wasn’t that.. fortunate.

    “My rational self, outside of the feeling, can see that he didn’t do anything wrong in the game situation…  a part of me, I am assuming hatchling, who still believes he can be nice enough to heal me”-

    – Sea turtle (the adult part of you) thinks rationally, and hatchling (the young child part of you) feels and believes. CBT is effective when it comes to challenging the inner child’s emotion-led thoughts (aka emotional reasoning) and leading her into believing what is objectively true vs what she feels is true. Over time, hatchling will believe what is objectively true.

    Sometimes what you believe to be true, really is objectively true; sometimes it isn’t.

    “When I am in the emotion I can see it overpowering me, I can’t escape it cause I don’t yet have the tools, but I find myself searching for tools when I am in the emotion. I realize there is a lack of emotional regulation skills”- emotion regulation skills and Mindfulness skills (related terms) are the tools that you need.

    I am circling back to this, you mentioned much earlier in your last post, but it stuck with me. When you used the analogy of a fawn and her mother and abandonment = death, it got me wondering where exactly this fear of abandonment is from. These are my two hypotheses: My dad did was not really ever emotionally there. But as far as physical abandonment, he did move out… My mom was emotionally in and out…  she would get extra affectionate. But her wine self is almost like an inauthentic affection feeling .. Then when I moved out with my dad, I left her, so she didn’t abandon me?”-

    – A fawn needs her mother’s physical presence and her mother to feed and protect her. Children need so much more than food and physical protection.. Children need predictable affection, approval, and gentle and clear guidance. And more. Because a child needs so much more than a fawn, and because people use elaborate languages (which makes life way more complex), there are many more ways to abandon a child than there are to abandon a fawn.

    I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad“- I didn’t know that you feel safer with your father… Would you like to elaborate on this sentence, the whole sentence?

    Are the messages sort of like realizations of the true reason hatchling is afraid…?”- the messages behind our physical sensations and emotions are simple, not at all complicated, ex., these: hunger=> need to eat; thirst=> need to drink; tired=> need to rest; scared=> need to run away or hide or fight; angry=> need to fight.

    Here is what makes it complicated: when a child goes through a scary childhood, the child adapts to it so to minimize the stress level. We adapt by figuratively closing our eyes to what scares us/ minimizing awareness. Fast forward, as adults, our eyes are still closed and our awareness- blocked to one extent or another, often significantly.

    anita

    #424769
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I will read and respond by Tuesday morning, earlier if I find the time. Tonight is opening night for my performance in a the Shakespeare play! N will be there and I am very nervous and want to come back to read when I can focus. Have a great weekend!

    #424775
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle and hachling:

    Thank you for the note and I do hope you did well last night…!!!

    anita

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