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Matt

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  • #169605
    Matt
    Participant

    Our emotions are objectively positive and negative and allow us to experience an objective good and bad. In a way, you could consider our emotions to be the ones making the value judgments. But they would be emotional value judgments rather than value judgments due to our way of thinking. The value judgments that come about through our way of thinking are subjective while the value judgments that come about through our emotions are objective. Let me give a metaphor/analogy for this. Our positive emotions would be like the light of god flowing through us. The light of god is sheer goodness itself which means it is something objectively positive and good. So, goodness wouldn’t be a concept or an idea. Rather, it would be a force or energy (the light of god). Without the light of god, then our lives would be completely empty and no way of thinking can fill in that void. You would have to be delusional or not awakened to the truth to believe otherwise.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by Matt.
    #161952
    Matt
    Participant

    It’s because I am trying to get to the point where my philosophy (worldview) becomes clear to others.  All my attempts have failed.  But if I get to the point where, not only is my philosophy clear in a summarized view, but also clear in a further explained message, then others would finally understand me and my views rather than scoffing at them out of ignorance/misunderstanding and name calling me.  It’s important that my philosophy is clear to everyone, my therapist, and is backed up by arguments that are also clear to the reader.  That way, we can have a real discussion about it rather than people not understanding what I am saying and backing away from any sort of discussion.

    #161804
    Matt
    Participant

    Here is a brief summary that should make my worldview clear:

    I think people need their good moods/feelings (their feel-good chemical/neurotransmitter induced states of well being) to allow them to perceive (see) the good value, joy, beauty, happiness, love, and worth in their lives. I don’t think our way of thinking, our outlooks, actions, and our value judgments alone allow us to truly see these qualities. I don’t think we can experience any of these qualities without our good moods/feelings.

    #161609
    Matt
    Participant

    Alright, let me make a logical argument that should make things perfectly clear to you now:

    1.) Happiness can only be an experience induced by the feel-good neurotransmitters/chemicals in the brain. This is a scientific fact. If you lose all of these chemicals and nothing you do can induce these chemical induced feel-good states, then you cannot experience happiness. So, happiness can only be a good mood/feeling induced by the feel-good chemicals/neurotransmitters. Good moods/feelings can only be happiness.

    2.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a liking experience, inspiration, love, enjoyment, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a positive tone. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a positive experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a negative toned experience can be of good value/worth to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a positive toned state here despite that negative toned experience.

    3.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a negative tone. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a negative experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a positive toned experience can be of bad value to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a negative toned state here despite that positive toned experience.

    4.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a neutral (mechanistic) tone. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a neutral toned experience can be of good value/worth to you or bad value to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a positive or negative toned state here despite that neutral toned experience.

    5.) The profoundness and intensity of these positive toned, negative toned, and neutral toned states dictate the level of perceived value. If you were in a very positive toned state of mind, then you would be perceiving much good value/worth in your life. If you were in a very negative toned state of mind, then you would be perceiving much bad value in your life. Likewise, if you were in a very neutral state, then you would be perceiving much neutral value in your life.

    6.) Positive toned states of mind can only be happiness. Negative toned states can only be unhappiness. Neutral toned states can only be neither happiness nor unhappiness. It is, therefore, only our good moods/feelings which can be the positive toned (happy) states of mind, our bad moods/feelings which can be the negative toned (unhappy) states of mind, and neither good nor bad moods/feelings being neither the positive or negative toned (neither happy nor unhappy) states of mind.

    Therefore,

    Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, love, liking, enjoyment, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives the perceptual quality of bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives no perceptual value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery. Perceiving good value/worth in your life presupposes a happy experience. It is the very definition of happiness and all other definitions of a life that is good and worthwhile to you are fake and delusional. They don’t give a person’s life any real perceptual quality of those positive terms.

    People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

    You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person’s life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no positive quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of good value/worth perceived in their lives. Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person’s life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

    As I said before, when I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. I have no positive emotional response in me whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don’t agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. I also don’t agree that any other definition of a good mood/feeling exists either since I think that it is only our feel good chemical/neurotransmitter states which are the good moods/feelings. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living without my good moods/feelings.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by Matt.
    #161486
    Matt
    Participant

    Thanks for responding back to me.  Now, when I say that these good moods/feelings sustain this perceptual quality of good value/worth in our lives, this perceptual quality is not a thought/outlook at all. As I said before, thoughts/outlooks alone do not give us this perceptual quality in our lives. This means that our good moods/feelings do not have some sort of mind control effect where they force us to perceive through our thinking that our lives have good value/worth to us. Rather, the good moods/feelings themselves are an actual awareness of good value/worth in our lives. Like I said earlier, I metaphorically described it as some sort of divine transcended awareness.

    #161408
    Matt
    Participant

    Could you at least point out what you found incoherent about my recent post I’ve made?  I thought I made my point quite clear in my recent post.  I can understand how my previous posts were long winded and confusing.  But I just don’t understand how my recent post can possibly be incoherent to you.

    #161382
    Matt
    Participant

    Here, let me offer a more clear explanation:

    <b>Hypothesis/Philosophy:  Our good moods/feelings (which I define as the states of well being induced by the various feel-good neurotransmitters/chemicals in the brain) are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality (experience) of good value, worth, joy, beauty, love, inspiration, and happiness.  A person cannot become perceptually aware of these qualities without his/her good moods/feelings since, again, our good moods/feelings are the perceptual awareness of these qualities.</b>

    <b>Brief Explanation:</b>  You see, I do not have these happy chemicals at all during my moments of traumatic induced misery/despair. Nothing I do can produce even the smallest amount of these happy chemicals. This is because my brain is in a completely traumatized state and, thus, all these chemicals are turned off. It is only once I reach a state of full recovery that these chemicals get turned back on, restoring my perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, and beauty back into my life again. That is where my whole theory/philosophy was getting at. I was saying that it can only be the good moods/feelings (the happy chemicals) that can give our lives the perceptual quality of good value/worth. But many people out there say you don’t need these happy chemicals and that there are other ways to perceive your life as having good value/worth and happiness to you anyway. Like I said, I disagree with this perceptual standard of good value/worth and happiness. I think it is fake and doesn’t exist.

    Thinking and believing that you can see the good value/worth in your life is not the same thing as actually seeing it just as how a blind person thinking and believing he/she can see is not the same thing as actual sight.  Everything in my life is completely dead, miserable, the worst hell, and insignificant in these miserable states.  I do not agree that this is simply a matter of value judgment on my part judging this miserable life.  I truly think it is the feel-good chemicals being restored and my misery recovering that restores my perceptual experience of good value, worth, and happiness in my life.  There are, for example, people who have taken antidepressants which have completely wiped out these chemicals.  They report that they are in a completely blank state as though a hard drive has been completely wiped clean.  From there, friends, family, and others would just give the recommendation to this person that he/she can still perceive good value/worth in his/her life through making the best of things anyway.  I disagree with this.  I think it is all lie and that we truly need our good moods/feelings.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by Matt.
    #161270
    Matt
    Participant

    Are you saying that my good moods/feelings do not possess an inherent quality of beauty and that my unconscious is simply making a judgment and reacting to them in such a way as though they were literally beautiful experiences for me?  Do you mean to also say that, during my absolute worst miserable moments in my life, that these experiences do not possess a quality to them that is inherently horrible?  But let’s pretend that I were to develop some sort of new outlook on life that allowed me to be tough, content, and enduring of these miserable experiences, I don’t think it is simply a change in values/mindset going on here.  I think the experience itself would have truly changed for me and that I would have a whole new experience in my life.  Therefore, I still think our experiences possess inherent qualities that make them beautiful and horrible.  It’s just a matter of these experiences changing for you which allows you to have a whole new outlook on life.  Although, I am still convinced that good moods/feelings will always possess the inherent quality of beauty and yielding of the perceptual experience of good value/worth in my life.  This would have to mean that a person who becomes tough and enduring of misery would only be having a new perception that allows him/her to endure.  But that perception is not of any real happiness, good value, or worth in his/her life.  The fact is, he/she is still missing his/her experience of good moods/feelings to give his/her life a real perceptual experience of good value, worth, and happiness.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by Matt.
    #161242
    Matt
    Participant

    Let me give you a logical argument that sums up my views:

    <b>1.)</b>  Having beauty, love, joy, good value, and worth in our lives is the most important thing to us as human beings.  They are the higher, humanistic qualities we need in our lives.

    <b>2.)</b>  Our judgments do not dictate reality.  For example, if we judged a person as ugly who had a daunting appearance, then that does not make the person ugly on the inside.  For all we know, this could truly be a beautiful person on the inside.  It is, therefore, what’s on the inside that counts and not what’s on the outside.

    <b>3.)</b>  Consciousness (our experience) is the most important and precious thing.  Without it, then we would either be dead or unconscious.  There are many mysterious about consciousness that we still have yet to figure out.

    Therefore,

    <b>Conclusion:  Our value judgments do not dictate what type of experience we have in our lives (i.e. joyful, beautiful, horrible, etc.).  So, it is not our judgments that are important here.  Rather, it is what’s on the inside that truly matters (our conscious experience).  It is, therefore, the type of experience we have that determines whether it truly is a beautiful or horrible experience for us or not just as how it’s what type of person he/she truly is on the inside that determines who he/she really is.  People who make value judgments might endure miserable moods/feelings and claim that they are beautiful experiences since they allow us to create gothic works of art and whatnot, but these miserable moods would only be beautiful from a purely conceptual (abstract) point of view.

    I describe later on in my packet the idea of abstract values that are inherent qualities within certain situations or things.  I will just give another example here.  It is a wrong thing from our human standard of morals and values to commit a crime such as stealing or raping.  A criminal who thinks this is right would be going by his/her standard of right and wrong that does not meet our human standard.  So, these crimes would be horrible and wrong from a purely conceptual point of view since they are abstract values that these crimes would inherently hold, according to our human standard.

    But then there are those types of values which are inherent qualities in our own experiences.  In order for any abstract value to be perceived as value to us, then that requires an experience that inherently possesses that value.  For example, if there were a certain situation that was beautiful, then we would have to experience our good moods/feelings which are literally beautiful experiences in order to perceive said situation as being beautiful to us.  If we did not have our good moods/feelings at all and we simply judged the situation as being beautiful to us, then it cannot be perceived as being beautiful to us.  It would not be a human standard of perceptual beauty.

    Rather, it would be the individual’s personal definition of perceived beauty that does not meet the human standard just as how the criminal’s definition does not either.  If there was a dangerous situation that could kill us, then that situation would inherently hold bad value.  But the only way we could perceive the fearful bad value this situation has would be if this situation evoked a panic response within us which would be a bad mood/feeling.  Again, bad moods/feelings possess the inherent quality of being a bad experience.  Therefore, they are what allow us to perceive bad value that situations hold in our lives.

    So, going back to my example with the person in a miserable mood who judged them to be beautiful, they would be beautiful from an abstract point of view since he/she is making use of them to help others and create gothic works of art.  But he/she would not be able to perceive this beautiful abstract value without his/her good moods/feelings.  Lastly, many people would object to my conclusion here.  But, referring to premise 3, my conclusion could still be possible because there are still many mysterious about consciousness and the brain that we have not yet discovered.
    </b>

    #160336
    Matt
    Participant

    Thank you.  I will now give you one last response/reply that I forgot to add into that packet:

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b> You just don’t need good moods/feelings to give your life good value/worth. I think they are trivial things.

    <b>My Reply:</b> I really do need them for all of the reasons I have explained in this packet. I am not the image of a strong and noble warrior who endures much misery since said life to me is nothing more than a crippled machine pushing forward in life. I am instead like a beautiful, wild, and exotic healthy plant out in the wild. This plant needs the sunshine, nutrients, and water in order to thrive. I need my good moods/feelings in order for me to be a divine and beautiful plant that grows and thrives. Without them, then I am nothing more than a withered plant with no more good value, worth, joy, or beauty perceived in my life anymore.

    #160280
    Matt
    Participant

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  No because I dont think anyone philosophy applies to everybody unlike you who does think so  which is ignorant beyone belief. ofcourse i hold you accountable because youre expressing your views and putting them down as facts and as being the reality of everyone when thats not the case. Your reality is not my reality and my reality is not your reality. I have severe depression anxiety panic disorder and ocd. Ive been trough multiple traumas in my life and everything Youre saying is false in my reality therefore makes your stament and philosophy wrong because your trying to aply it to my life as a depressed person when im saying its not true for me and you insisit it is lol. Everything you stated is tru for yourself not the general depressed population heak im sure pleanty will say they do feel the same as you but again its not true that it applies to everyone.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I see no evidence that this non feeling version of value is anything real given everything I’ve explained which certainly opens up the possibility that it really could be fake.  If you have a certain situation and there are two ways of looking at it, then as long as there is no evidence, then it is nothing more than a philosophy.  You cannot say that I am wrong just as how I cannot say you are wrong.  This is just a matter of personal view.  I am personally convinced of my own philosophy based upon all the hell I’ve experienced in my life.  It was a life of the worst misery completely devoid of any good value.  It didn’t matter what I did with my life or what mindset I had.  My life was still completely dead and empty.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Exactly hence being true for your own reality. Bye good luck

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Or maybe it should be the case that neither of us should be convinced of our philosophies since there is no evidence to support either of them.  I actually wouldn’t consider my view to be a philosophy.  Rather, I think it is a claim I am making.  Claims are different than philosophies.  Claims are where you say things such as that all human beings are going to die tomorrow.  This is what I am doing since I am saying that the only way all human beings can have good value in their lives is through their good moods/feelings.  Even though I have no evidence to support this claim, no one has any evidence to support their claim either that the non feeling version of value is real.  This should put both of us in a position where we cross our fingers.  However, I am just very doubtful and skeptical about this idea that a person’s life can have good value and happiness without his/her good moods/feelings.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Interesting hypothesis Matt, although it does fall apart if you accept that value and worth are relative to the observer. In other words, you may feel worthless and without value, but if someone else feels that you have worth and value, then you have worth and value.

    <b>My Reply: </b> But what would it matter even if the person did have value and worth? The person without his/her good moods/feelings wouldn’t be able to actually perceive that value and worth in his/herself. Therefore, I find your point moot.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Sorry Matt, you’ve changed your thesis from ‘depressed people have no value’ to ‘depressed people are unable to perceive their own value’. I think we all can relate with your modified thesis.

    How big a hole would you leave if you completely disappeared tomorrow? That’s a good way to measure your value. Would your family be sad? Would your spouse miss you? Who would feed your cat?

    Everyone, sick or well, has value.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  But it would only do you good when you can actually perceive that value. Otherwise, you and your life have no value and worth to you. This would even include altruistic endeavors having no value and worth to you either. Also, that was never my thesis to begin with.  But continuing on here.  You say that many depressed people can relate to perceiving no value and worth in their lives.  I think this actually supports my philosophy/claim and I will explain why.

    I think what is going on here is that, when a depressed person perceives no value and worth in his/her life which, by the way, many depressed people do this, then he/she is truly seeing his/her experience for what it is.  But then family, friends, society, etc. comes along and conditions/deludes this individual into thinking his/her life can have good value and worth to him/her.

    This puts the depressed person in a position where he/she becomes deluded from his/her inner experience and becomes falsely convinced that his/her life now has good value, joy, and happiness to him/her with no need for these good feelings and with no need for a depression free life.  However, even if a person is conditioned and deluded, there might be times where he/she is able to truly see into his/her inner depressed experience again and truly see how his/her life has no good value/worth.

    Other Person’s Response:  Perhaps you should define value and worth in the context of your thesis. At our most fundamental level we provide value to the Earth simply by breathing, ergo, if we are alive, we are valuable.  You’re lack of ability to perceive your value does not change the fact that you are valuable.

    My Reply:  But, again, why should my non perceived value matter if I can’t actually perceive it? As far as I would be concerned, there really would be no value in my life at all as long as I could not perceive it.  I need to have the transcended (positive) state of awareness that my good moods/feelings offer me in order to make my life worth living.

    Without that, then there is no way I am going to live and I would just give up on life.  In order for my value to matter to me, then my value must have value to me.  Otherwise, you might as well consider it some sort of abstract value floating out there that I cannot have as a part of my life experience.  If nothing matters to me (doesn’t have any good value to me), then why would I live?  Eventually, if I could not recover my good feelings, then I would end my life.

    If the most cruel and sadistic sociopath were to know that an innocent human being such as his/her mother or father is a person of much value, love, and compassion, then it wouldn’t matter to this sociopath.  The sociopath would still do his/her harmful and cruel actions towards these innocent family members.  As far as this sociopath is concerned, they have no value to him/her and it is instead being harmful towards these family members which has the value to this sociopath (providing that he/she can feel good from his/her harmful actions, according to my definition of value).

    The same scenario applies to me (although I am not a sociopath).  My life would still not matter to me without my good moods/feelings and I would still go through with ending my life providing that I can never regain them.  Even if I had abstract value and worth as a human being that I could not see, it would be useless for me.

    Lastly, I will give you another example of an abstract value.  If I were miserable and I were to witness a famous work of art or an amazing character, then I wouldn’t actually be aware of that magnificence, good value, and beauty that these works of art hold.  Therefore, these works of art would be holding abstract values that I cannot be aware of in the current moment.  The works of art would be completely dead and empty to me as of now.  But the moment I fully recover is the moment I become aware of all those wonderful values.<b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  I recognise this user. He’s got himself tangled up in a perfect cognitive loop.I wonder if this Oatmeal comic would help him at all? Gonna try posting it for him at any rate.

    theoatmeal.com/comics/unhappy

    (Sorry for the seemingly terse reply, I’m just really tired!)

    <b>My Reply:</b>  The version of happiness you are pointing out would be having good value and worth in your life. It would be the notion that, even if you didn’t feel good, you still got things done in life anyway. I am saying that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to perceive our lives as having good value and worth to us in the first place. Therefore, good moods/feelings are the only real source of happiness.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response:</b>  Your claim (worldview) sounds quite unique and innovative.  I don’t think too many people can relate to it.  What is it called?

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I think it is called “hedonism.”  Hedonism is a philosophy which says that pleasure is good and pain is bad.  However, I have come up with my very own extension to hedonism which, I will admit, is unique and innovative.  I have taken hedonism a step further by saying that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to become aware of the good value in our lives.  I do not think hedonism has ever presented itself in this fashion.  Therefore, I am dressing up hedonism in a glamorous and innovative fashion.  I have presented my own logical arguments in my replies to the respondents here to support this newer and upgraded version of hedonism.

    It’s like taking a piece of technology and upgrading it with stylish innovation.  This isn’t just an upgrade, it is my own personal conviction.  A hedonistic life is very profound and beautiful to me.  There is no other way of life.  All other ways of life are mechanistic and dead.  A beautiful eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams would be my dream life that I would be so profoundly connected to and grateful for.  I have struggled with much depression, misery, and anhedonia in this life already that I think an eternal utopia life is definitely warranted.  I just don’t know if there really is an afterlife or not since there are skeptics out there who would say there isn’t.

    I wish to be a wild and free animal.  But only in the hedonistic sense.  All other ways of being wild and free are actually nothing more than prisons of hell (misery/hopelessness) or states of mind where everything is completely blank (anhedonia).  I literally see nothing that these people claim a non hedonistic life to be.  They say it is joyful, wild, free, valuable, worthwhile, and beautiful.  But I have experienced absolutely nothing of the sort.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  What do you have against depressed people?  You are saying their lives have no value and no worth.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I have nothing against depressed people and neither am I trying to make them feel worse.  I am instead vehemently opposed to a lifestyle of misery and despair which is what I have experienced during my traumatic moments/worries in my life.  Based upon my personal experience, such a life can only be completely miserable, dead, hell, the worst life, and empty.  No good value, worth, or joy can be perceived in such a life.  That is what has compelled me to write this and my other packets.  If my whole philosophy/claim really is true, then that would encourage others to find cures for depression and would also encourage others to create a heavenly, blissful, utopia life here on earth for us as human beings.  This would make my dream life come true here on earth.  Of course, I would be dead and would not get to actually live that life since it would take literally thousands of years for such a life to be created if it ever does.<b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  Please be respectful around people’s opinions and beliefs surrounding this subject. Do not offend others. This thread is being watched by admin, and if needed, will take action

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Understood.  I was just trying to find out if my definition of good value/worth is an objective truth no different than the objective truth that we all have one heart that beats and keeps us alive.  That objective truth applies to all human beings and I was wondering if my view does as well.  Honestly, I don’t see it any other way.  Like I said, there is no way I can see how a definition of having perceived good value/worth in your life without a positive toned state of mind (good moods/feelings) is anything other than a biological machine’s definition.  It just makes no sense to me how the absence of a positive toned state of mind is anything other than a mechanistic or, even worse, a negative state filled with suffering, perceived bad value in one’s life, misery, torment, etc.<b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  What I understand that you are saying is you think other people with depression that see their life as being worthwhile are delusional.  <b>

    My Reply:  </b>That’s correct.  I am not saying that to be mean or insulting. It is just my personal view I wanted to share.  You can dismiss it if you like or take consideration into it. <b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  Hmm, what about people that live by the hope of getting better?  To me that’s the biggest reason that people with depression keep going.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  It still wouldn’t be perceived as being a good and worthwhile life by the depressed individual.  So, it would still be delusional.  The depressed person would simply be taking action to improve his/her life.  But, again, a depressed life can only be a life where you perceive no good value/worth in your life.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Why would that be a delusion?  Their life would be worthwhile once they get better or their depression episode ends.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Once they have the good moods/feelings back to them, then their lives would be perceived as having good value and worth to them.  But while they are actually struggling with the depression, then this is the time where their lives cannot have any good value and worth to them.  It doesn’t matter how much they live for the future or anything else for that matter.  Their lives would still not be of any good value/worth to them.  <b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  I think different people with varying levels of depression find varying levels of worth in their lives.  There is an area for anhedonia if that’s only what you’re talking about.   I’m not sure how people with anhedonia feel about life because I had it for only 5 days, it was very irritating.

    I also don’t think most people in a depressive episode are deluded in the way you say they are.  I don’t understand what wrong with empathy and helping people it the person enjoys doing those things.  Also I’m not sure how a person can have empathy if the person is unable to feel emotions.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   If you could not experience any moods/feelings whatsoever, then empathy/strength of character would just simply be a matter of the person having the attitude of:

    “Well, I cannot feel anything at all.  But I am going to help others, make the world a better place, and make the best of my life anyway.  This is something that makes my life good and worth living to me.”

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  What person that can’t feel emotions ever said this^????

    Empathy is sharing in another persons emotion so if you cant feel emotions you can’t have empathy.  An example would be if you help someone and it makes them feel happy then empathy would make you feel happy too.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  All I know is that, when I am miserable and hopeless due to a certain traumatic life event happening to me, all of my good moods/feelings are gone.  There is no positive experience whatsoever to give my life any real good value, worth, or joy during these times.  From there, many people would tell me that you don’t have to feel good.  They would say to me that helping others, making the best of life anyway, etc. would be something that could still give my life good value and worth even without any good moods/feelings.  They would say that even if I had no moods/feelings whatsoever such as due to complete anhedonia, that there are still other ways to live a life that has good value and worth to you.  I just don’t agree with that.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response:</b>  I understand, I’m not going to say these things to you.  I really hope that you can get better and feel that your life is worthwhile again.  There are a lot of people in the anhedonia area that try to figure out a cure for it, I’m not sure if that would help you.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  So, can you see why I come to the conclusion that empathy/strength of character is not rooted in moods/feelings and that it is instead the attitude of making the best of life anyway and helping others?  When, for example, a person has the worst anhedonia of his/her life in which he/she literally cannot experience any emotions (moods/feelings) whatsoever and is in a completely blank state, therapists, family, friends, and other people out in the community would suggest to this person to make the best of life anyway, help others, and that his/her life can still have good value and worth to him/her even without feeling anything whatsoever.  That is why I conclude that empathy/strength of character is not an emotional based trait.  You say it is.  But what I said suggests otherwise.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  No because you can’t have empathy if you can’t feel emotions, empathy is an emotion based trait.  These people are saying this to you because they don’t understand what you’re going through.  Even therapists have said that to you?  Friends and family say unhelpful stuff a lot because they don’t understand. I’m not sure what strength of character is specifically.

    <b>My Reply: </b>  Strength of character would simply be carrying on in life despite the miserable times.  It isn’t necessarily helping others and caring for others.  It is just carrying on in life anyway despite misery and despair.  Consider strength of character to be the famous quote by Rocky Balboa.  He says life isn’t all about the happy emotions and that how winning is done is through taking a beating and keep on going anyway in life.

    But if you are saying that empathy and strength of character can only be emotions, then that still all goes back to that logical argument I presented earlier which had 4 premises with bolded numbers and a conclusion in bolded words.  I think my logical argument still applies here even when it comes to the good and bad emotions that empathy and strength of character offer.  I still think that it can only be the good emotions that make things and situations of good value and worth to us.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  No, only empathy is an emotional trait.  I’m not sure if you saw the post above yours, I said you can have sympathy if you are able to feel sorrow and pity. It depends on what emotions you are able to feel.  People don’t want to hurt other people because they have empathy for pain.

    I think your definition of strength of character is not emotional. I think of tolerance, patience, flexibility, or how much a person is able to bear. I don’t think these are emotional traits, I’m not sure what I would call them.  I think every person has different amounts of these and can learn to have more of some.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Nonetheless, my view would say that it is only the good emotions that can give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us in our lives.  If strength of character really is an emotionless trait, then it cannot give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us. <b>

    Other Person’s Response:</b>  Hmm, this makes me think of people that say “I didn’t know it was good until it was taken away” Because when the good thing was taken away the person felt negative emotions.

    I can see how only having negative emotions would make a person feel like life isn’t worthwhile.

    Knowing what values you think are good also has to do with negative emotions though, like knowing not to hurt people.
    Sometimes people have strength of character because not having it would hurt other people.

    The problem with your argument is you are talking about different things like they are the same. There is only 1 I can agree with.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Actually, negative emotions would still only give your life the perception of bad value even after everything you have explained and I will explain why.  If you felt bad because you hurt someone else, then you wouldn’t stop hurting that person because it is a good thing to you to do so.  Rather, you would stop because the situation was horrible to you.  It is only once you feel good from the idea that this person shouldn’t be harmed that it would now be a good situation to you to not harm this person.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  I don’t think there’s such a thing as good or bad value, I haven’t heard of that before, people only have values.   I usually don’t use the words “good” or “bad”  because they are judgments.

    I guess in this example it would be neutral because it didn’t create any emotions.

    I can see how a person without positive emotions wouldn’t have motivation to help other people or do anything except prevent pain.  I don’t think the person would be able to be selfish either, seems like that factors in somewhere.  It seems like a lot of people with anhedonia are very motivated to get their emotions back though, maybe remembering what emotions are like does something.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Do you think that there are other experiences that have a positive tone besides good emotions?  I’m not sure there is.  I think that, as long as you don’t have good emotions, then you can have nothing but an experience that either has a negative tone or an experience that has a mechanistic tone.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Hmm, I want to say physical sensations the I’ve heard the other people with anhedonia say that they lost interest in food and things like that.  I’m not sure either, there must be something that’s keeping the other people with anhedonia going and motivating them to get better.  I didn’t have anhedonia long enough to find out.

    It seems very complex.  There was this study were they would make people wait in this room that was empty except for a pain device.  The people ended up hurting themselves because they would rather feel pain then nothing and boredom, that seems weird. .

    I don’t know because I’m so used to having emotions, I don’t know what it’s like to be without them except for irritating.
    I would ask this: “I was wondering if there were other states of mind besides good emotions that would possess a positive tone?”  in the anhedonia area.  I don’t think that would be triggering.

    Talking about another persons worth is triggering, a lot of people here already struggle with feeling worthless.  It seems like a life that you could never get back again if you lost it is pretty valuable and worth a lot.  Maybe just living is positive.

    Are you still trying to make a religion or something?

    It’s late here so I have to go.<b>
    </b><b>
    My Reply:</b>  All I am trying to do is to perfect my whole view (philosophy) so that other people, including my therapist, will have a complete insight into who I am as a person, how I think, and what my values are.  That way, I can get help if I ever need it.  I would get the proper help that I need rather than some pep talks here and there that don’t help me.  But continuing on here.  I am not going to live just to live life and nothing more.  I need to be in a certain state of conscious awareness in order to make my life worth living to me.  That state would be a state that has a positive tone of experience for me.  My life needs to have a positive perceptual tone of experience.  Otherwise, I am not going to live anymore.  I really think that it is through only have this positive state of awareness that one’s life can have real good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to him/her.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  I see. What kind of help do you need or are going to need?  Do you know what your values are?  Do you have anhedonia or not anymore?  Is it okay if I ask what the trauma that happened to you is? I’m wondering what emotions you can feel and if you found anything close?  Is there anything that makes you feel better at all?

    I’m not sure what this “certain state of conscious awareness” or “positive perceptual tone of experience” is. Sounds like you need God or something.  Health? Mindfulness in the moment?  (I’m trying to think of the things I learned in therapy)

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I don’t believe in god or the afterlife.  All I am saying is that I need my life to be in a positive state of experience in order to make my life worth living.  If it is a state of mind that possesses nothing but a negative or neutral (mechanistic) tone, then I would give up on life.  There is no way I am living and doing my hobbies like that.  My whole values and philosophy was based around this idea that a positive tone of experience is needed in order to give rise to the perception of good value and worth in one’s life and that, since good emotions are the only source of that positive toned experience, then they can be the only things that can give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us.

    I could be wrong, but I just don’t see it any other way.  If I am going to have a positive toned state of mind, then it has to actually qualify as the humanistic standard.  Otherwise, I would give up here as well since my life would still be perceived as nothing to me.  On a further note, I am actually doing mostly just fine now.  I am almost to a state of full recovery from this emotionally traumatic experience I’ve had.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  That’s good you’re doing better now.  You do feel pleasure and positive emotions now? I’m very confused if you feel positive emotions or not.   Are you scared that you’re going to have anhedonia again?   I’m wondering why you are still stuck on this.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I am experiencing positive emotions again on some significant degree.  Just in case something happens to me again and, this time, it is a virtually lifelong chronic absence of my good moods/feelings due to chronic depression or anhedonia, then it is imperative that I present my views and philosophy to my therapist and other people so they can truly know me, what I am going through, and how to help me if possible.

    <b>Other Person’s Response: </b> I guess it would be helpful to have a back up plan just in case, they were able to help you somehow though.  I can’t come up with a good argument against needing positive emotions to make your life seem worthwhile.  I don’t think helping other people would be rewording without positive emotions.  I think you would have some values but not many.

    <b>My Reply: </b>  I think being in a state of mind that has a positive tone is everything to life.  When you have the attitude of, for example:

    “Even though my life is tough, I am still going to make the best of my life, help others, and carry on in my life.”

    Then that quote denotes a state of mind that has a positive tone.  Sure, you could still have that attitude anyway even without any positive toned experience.  But it would either have to be forced (faked) just like how you would just randomly flail your arms up in the air or you would have to be deluding yourself into thinking you are having a positive toned state of mind when you are really not.  If I am right in saying that it can only be our good emotions (our good moods/feelings) that can be the positive toned experiences, then they would really have to be the only things that matter in life.  There can be nothing more to life than our good moods/feelings.

    It just wouldn’t make any sense to me for someone to view me as childish, spoiled, immature, worthy of contempt, cowardly, weak, etc. for me to then decide to leave this life if I were to lose my good moods/feelings and can never get them back to me within the reasonable time frame of 1-2 years.  Two years would be the absolute max I could go without these good moods/feelings.  However, if there can be an alternate positive toned experience in my life, then that would certainly give me much more hope than just good moods/feelings.  But, remember, and this is of the utmost importance, this positive toned state of mind must meet the human standard.

    But, again, I’m just not sure there is any positive toned experience besides the good moods/feelings.  It could really be the case that people are only fooled and deluded into thinking they are having a positive toned experience without their good moods/feelings when they really aren’t.  Even strength of character, as we’ve clearly established earlier as an emotionless trait, would have to be a positive toned experience.  Otherwise, people would have to be deluding themselves into thinking they are having a positive toned experience when they are really not.

    Lastly, I would call a positive toned state of mind to be the realm of the light.  This is the realm where we are making the best of things, caring for one another, loving, having fun, playing, etc.  Basically, this is the realm where it’s everything to what it means to be human and alive.  But a mechanistic toned state of mind or, even worse, a negative toned state of mind would be the realm of darkness (negative) or a blank realm (mechanistic).  In these two states, your life cannot be anything worth living and you would have to be delusional to think otherwise.  There can be nothing perceived as good and worthwhile while in these two states of mind.  You can only make decisions knowing that your life can get better.

    But, again, such decisions can only be mere tasks at this point and it is only when you reach a state of recovery back into the realm of the light that your life can matter to you, have all the good value, joy, etc., and be worth living to you again.  I will go back to my personal example once more.  Even though I had no positive toned experience whatsoever during my moments of misery, I still remained in this life anyway and got the help I needed.  However, my life was still completely nothing to me at that point.  This is what I mean here when I say that our lives can be nothing without a positive toned state of mind.  I utterly detest the dark and blank realms.  My very being yearns for the realm of the light since this is the realm I need to be in.  There is no way I am going to continue living my life on and on in those dark and blank realms.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  I guess I don’t have a positive tone to my life, I don’t have enough positive experiences. It turns out I have chronic depression but they changed the name to persistent depression.

    My life is tough, I figure that I’m going to die someday anyway and it’s not bad enough to die. My life was worse when I lived with my grandmother so maybe I have more tolerance now. I have tried to commit suicide before but it didn’t work. The hospital staff said next time I try I could end up in a coma or paralyzed, then I would be stuck with depression and not be able to do anything about it.

    I don’t think I’m making the best of my life but I would probably feel a lot better if I was.  It’s more that people are trying to get better, it is possible.  Depression takes a lot of your motivation to do that away though.

    I think the biggest reason people with depression help other is because they’re lonely.  Also because of the happiness empathy thing.

    People get angry if you want to take your life because it would hurt them and take their positive tone of experience away.  This was confusing to me also, someone in the hospital told me about this.  I think it would be clear that getting mad and saying things like this would only hurt the person more. Most people don’t understand how someone with depression feels at all, maybe they don’t want to. Having empathy of depression would be very painful.

    I hope you find something.  I have good moods and feelings but I still don’t have a positive tone of experience.   I don’t think the people without good emotions are deluded into thinking they are having a positive experience. They have strength of character to wait until they get better.  Dying and death are scary things.

    This is where you start to sound like you are making a religion.  It’s not appropriate to call other people delusional for thinking their life is worth living.  You can’t know what it’s like for other people, you can only know what it’s like for you.  It sounds like you want other people to die, that’s steeping way over the line.  Something that people say is “This too shall pass”.

    I think the problem is that you’ve been talking with people that don’t have or don’t understand depression.  For some reason you think people with depression think they way these non-depressed people tell you they do.

    I also think these people were being invalidating of your emotions and your not having emotions.  Invalidation really bothers me.
    Strength of character is with keeps other people with depression going and trying to get better, not delusions.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   I understand already that it would hurt my family and others around me if I were to take my life.  But in order for me to remain in this life in the first place, then that requires a positive tone of experience for me in order for me to actually perceive it as a good and worthwhile endeavor for me to remain here for my family.  That would even include remaining in this life for my hobbies, nature, etc.  So, I need that positive tone of mind in order for anything to matter to me.  Let me try to just make things clear here.  Do you agree that a positive tone of mind is necessary to give rise to the perception of good value in a person’s life, to make his/her life worth living to him/her, and to make things matter to him/her?

    I think it obviously would.  Without that tone of experience, then continuing to live on and on like this would just be a complete waste of time.  Even if you thought that living like this was the ideal life for you, then even that attitude implies a positive tone of experience.  So, what I am saying here is that a life without a positive tone of mind cannot be anything good, worthwhile, etc. to you no matter how you look at it.  If you somehow don’t agree that a positive toned state of mind is necessary in one’s life, then what we have here is nothing more than an agree to disagree scenario.

    I think it’s necessary just as how a heart is necessary to keep us alive.  Remember, if I am going to have any sort of positive toned state of mind besides my good moods/feelings, then these have to be actual positive tones of experience that meet the human standard and not just a matter of thinking they are when they aren’t.  If you thought that an orange was an apple, then that won’t change the qualities that this orange has and make it an actual apple.  In that same sense, thinking that you are having a positive tone of experience won’t change the quality of the experience you are having and somehow make it an actual positive toned experience in your life.

    However, if there is a definition of value and worth out there that says that you don’t need any positive tone of mind and that it is instead we who give the value and worth to our lives, then I think this definition is blatantly false.  It’s a definition that focuses away from one’s own inner life (experience).  It’s not about what’s “out there.”  It’s not about the lies that society tells you and any external obligations/responsibilities that compel you to focus away from your own inner experience.

    It’s not about what’s on the outside.  It is instead about what’s on the inside.  If you look within yourself and your inner experience truly is mechanistic (dead), then I think it is quite obvious that your life cannot possibly have any real good value, worth, joy, etc. to you.  But if you are truly convinced that your inner experience is one filled with life (positivity) completely independent of any notion of good moods/feelings, then that is just your conviction.  There is no way to actually tell if you are deluding yourself or not through your upbringing, conditioning, etc.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response:</b>  I was just telling you why the people in your life were having that reaction.  I’m not saying it’s the right reaction or that you should live for them.

    I’m not sure if this is a disagreement or not.  When it really comes down to it I feel like everything people do or feel is worthless, pointless and, meaningless because people die anyway.  I don’t think any of this would matter to a dead person.  I don’t put a time limit on my life, it’s like I’m playing the life lottery.  Something could happen, I could die unexpectedly, my life could get better, it could get worse.  Seems like if my life got like it was before I might try to commit suicide again but maybe I would be too scared.  You only get 1 life to live, I don’t want to jump the gun when I don’t know when things could get better.

    I don’t think I’m having a positive tone of experience but it’s tolerable to me right now.  Just because a life is worthless doesn’t mean you should give up on it or through it away.  It’s like how those eco people make good things out of garbage.

    I understand if a person didn’t have positive emotions they would think everything is worthless, they would feel no reward so would have no concept of worth.

    I don’t know how someone with anhedonia could even do hobbies and activities, I couldn’t when I had it, I kept trying but I had no interest in them.  I really don’t know what I would do if I had anhedonia long term.

    Do you think I’m delusional?

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I think that if a life is worthless, then it is just that.  Worthless.  You are trying to make something good and worthwhile out of something that can’t be good or worthwhile to you.  That just doesn’t make any sense to me.  Therefore, without any positive tone of mind, then you can only live your life like a biological machine and nothing more.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  You did do this though, your life was worthless to you before and now you’re almost fully recovered.  How did you recover without a positive tone of mind?

    Edit: Maybe the problem here is that I don’t think my life is completely worthless.  I don’t have a positive tone most of the time, just some of the time, some of the time my tone of mind is very negative.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   Just because I have chosen to get help during my miserable times does not mean that my life had any good value or worth to me during these moments.  We as human beings have needs.  We need the higher, humanistic qualities in our lives such as love, joy, beauty, etc.  This would even included the higher, humanistic definition of good value and worth.  Being in either a mechanistic toned state of mind or a negative toned state of mind does not meet our higher, humanistic needs as human beings.  That is why I said I absolutely need to be in a positive toned state of mind.  Otherwise, I would completely give up on life.

    If you are going to have perceived love, joy, beauty, happiness, inspiration, good value, and worth in your life, then the true version of those terms can only come about through the positive toned state of mind.  This would make all those terms what they should truly be.  That is, they would become higher, humanistic terms in a positive toned state of mind.  But if you were to be in a mechanistic state of mind, then those terms would no longer have that higher, humanistic quality that we as human beings need in our lives.  They would now be nothing more than mechanistic qualities in our lives.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response: </b> I feel like there’s this disconnect between the present and future that making you not understand what I’m saying.  You felt like your life was worthless> you didn’t commit suicide > now your life is not worthless. You turned your worthless life through treatment into a life that’s worth something to you.  You had no positive tone> you didn’t commit suicide > now you have positive tone.

    If I do it like math

    No positive tone + treatment = possible positive tone

    No positive tone + suicide = no positive tone.

    What you keep saying is also very contradictory.  You keep saying “a life with no positive tone is worthless and can’t be changed” Then in reality you did change your worthless life so it makes no sense.

    Do you mean people have told you learn to live with no positive tone?  I don’t know why someone would say that since you ended up not having to live with it.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   I guess you could say that my life really did have a positive toned state of mind during my times of misery.  However, it would have been so minuscule that I could not detect it.  Since I could not detect it, then that is why I am reporting that I had no positive toned state of mind during those miserable moments.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>   I understand that people need positive emotions.  I don’t think anyone would tell you to learn to live with out them, maybe that’s why this seems strange to me.  From talking to you I think that if you didn’t have good emotions everything would be worthless or worse then worthless, a burden.

    “However, let’s assume for a moment that I really did perceive real good value and worth in my life during that time since I got the help I needed and one might assume that this has real good value and worth to me.  This would be a completely different definition of good value and worth.

    It is a definition that is completely dead and nothing.”

    What gave it the worth if it was dead and nothing?  You might be answering your own questions.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Like I said earlier, I could have had a positive toned state of mind during my moments of misery.  But it would have been so minuscule that I could not detect it.  It was something so small, but sufficient to allow me to get the help I needed.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>   I think most people with depression must have that small amount of positive tone then.  Sometimes I have episodes where I think I always feel really down, then, when I feel a little bit better I wonder why I was thinking that.  I also used to think I was constantly suicidal until my therapist had me track it on a mood diary.  Depression is very tricky, it make you think things are always bad and wont get better, that’s the real delusion.

    I’m happy you got the help!  What you went through was awful, I hope you don’t have something like that again.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   Thank you.  Now, I am going to explain my own theory on positive toned states of mind.  They could actually be good moods/feelings.  When a depressed person gets help, then he/she could be experiencing a good mood/feeling, but on such a small scale that he/she cannot detect it.  This would have to mean that the perceptual quality of good value and worth in this depressed person’s life would have to be minuscule as well.  But when the depressed person fully recovers and is in a normal, healthy state of well being, then that is a positive toned state of mind on a much higher level.  The perceptual quality of good value/worth in this person’s life would now be at its optimal level.

    If he/she were to then feel very excited, joyful, or even go on blissful psychedelic trips, then this would offer him/her the greatest perceptual quality of good value/worth.  However, if a positive toned state of mind has nothing to do with good moods/feelings, then by finding a way to enhance it through either drugs or technology, then this would enhance the perceptual quality of good value/worth for somebody who has very little of it despite trying his/her best to think positive, do what he/she can in his/her life, and trying to make the best of things.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response:</b>  Lol, I used to do psychedelic drugs.  Some people have really bad trips somehow.  I think this sounds good.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I would like to say one last thing here.  The perceptual quality of good value/worth in my life during my miserable states is nowhere near sufficient to put me in a position where I would live the entirety of my life for my family and for my hobbies.  Like I said, if I could not recover from this miserable state or an anhedonic state that rendered this perceptual quality minute, then the reasonable time frame would be 1-2 years.  If I don’t have this perceptual quality at its sufficient level after 2 years max, then my decision is firm and final.  I would end my life and it doesn’t matter what others say or feel.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  *sigh* , okay. You should probably keep a mood diary if something like this happens to make sure your depression’s not tricking you.  Yeah, that’s what I hear a lot “quality of life”.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  Understood.  But I don’t think you really realize what I’ve been through if you are displaying such a nonchalant tone.  My life was the worst possible hell completely devoid of any perceptual quality of good value/worth.  I am even saying this while in a state of full recovery.  So I know it is not any depression fooling me.  If there was somehow some perceptual quality of good value/worth in my life during those miserable traumatic events, then, like I said before, it would have to be at such a minute level that I could not detect it.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Sorry, I forgot about the first part. I understand how bad you felt. (I think)  The sigh is because I’m disappointed you’re still putting a time limit on your life. I’m not very good at talking with people too. I guess I’m not sure what you mean by nonchalant.
    <b>
    My Reply:</b>  There has to be a time limit set.  I will give you an example.  If a person was standing in line and it took way too long, then he/she would just leave.  It all depends on this person’s time limit set that would determine when he/she would decide to leave.  Another example would be that, if a person was at a dead party waiting for it to start, then even though it could start anytime, this person would still leave that party if nothing happens within the time frame that this individual has set.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response:</b>  These people could change their mind and go back later so these are bad examples.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  But can you at least see my point?  If a person works hard to obtain a certain goal, then he/she can do so for quite some time providing this person has the optimal perceptual quality of good value and worth in his/her life to keep him/her going.  As long as he/she has this optimal perceptual quality, then I don’t think any time limit would be set by this individual.  He/she would just keep at it no matter how long it takes until, one day, he/she obtains his/her goal.

    But for someone who has very little to none of this perceptual quality of good value and worth in his/her life, then such an individual would give up soon since he/she does not have the optimal perceptual quality of good value/worth to keep him/her going.  That is the point I am trying to make here.  If I were to have chronic depression or anhedonia which rendered this perceptual quality at a minute level, then I would find myself giving up on life very soon.  Like I said, the reasonable time frame would be 1-2 years.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response: </b> I see your point now.  I think your own death is the biggest decision you can make in your life.  You don’t even want to keep a record of how you feel for the last 1-2 years.  Now it’s changed to 1-2 years instead of 2.

    <b>My Reply:</b>  I would like to add that it is just our nature as human beings to give up on things when things don’t work out after a certain time frame.  It is just a part of life and being human.  That all goes back to those examples I made.  You said they were bad examples.  But imagine good examples.  Furthermore, we have human needs as I’ve mentioned before.  We are social animals and need to socialize, we need food to eat, we need to sleep, etc.  We also need to have the higher, humanistic qualities in our lives.  That is, we need to be in that positive toned state of mind.  This positive toned state of mind is obviously a dire human need of mine.  I am not going to live very long without it.  I would give up if I cannot regain it within that reasonable time frame.
    <b>
    Other Person’s Response: </b>  I was saying because you said “I would like to add that it is just our nature as human beings to give up on things when things don’t work out after a certain time frame.”  that you are not a thing and your life is not a thing.  Then I was thinking that a person is the same thing as their life because without a life that person would not exist.  I don’t think a persons life could ever be completely worthless to them because that’s all that person has.  Usually people don’t choose death because their life is worthless, they do it to escape pain.

    Last time you had depression and anhedonia it was extreme. If you get it again it might be different and it might not be as extreme so you might be able to last longer then 2 years.  I’m thinking you also might still have depression because this seems like suicidal ideation to me.
    <b>
    My Reply:</b>  It makes perfect sense to me, at least, for a person to end his/her life because it is either completely worthless or has very little worth.  It would be like a situation where a person goes to a party and this is the only part he/she can have.  If he/she decides to leave, he/she can never come back.  I bet this person would still leave anyway if it was a party that was either completely worthless to him/her or had very little worth.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Good!  I can’t agree with you about putting a limit on your life,  I’m not sure what to say anymore.

    <b>My Reply: </b>  It would be far worse than being at a party that is worthless.  If I were living my life in a state of complete misery which would be utter hell for me, then I would be that much more compelled to leave this life within that reasonable time frame mentioned.  Lastly, I would like to say a few more things.  It is very well possible that, if a person is very miserable and chooses to get help and make the best of life anyway, that he/she is not actually experiencing any positive toned state of mind.  We had a discussion earlier in regards to how you thought such a thing could not be possible.  But I think it could be possible and I will explain why.

    If a sentient android were built, then it could still do tasks, make the best of its life, etc. even without any positive toned experience.  It would just do whatever its programming is.  Same thing with a mere robot.  As you can see here, you do not need positive and negative toned experiences (states of mind) in order to do things in your life, make choices, etc.  This would mean that even a person who felt nothing but good and decided to end his/her life since he/she thought that his/her life was not good/worth living wouldn’t actually have any negative toned experience that drove him/her to suicide.

    Rather, it was his/her “programming” (i.e. his/her conditioning, natural wiring, upbringing, morals, etc.).  If he/she has reported to someone before his/her act of suicide that he/she did indeed had a very negative toned experience that drove him/her to suicide, then even a programmed android or robot can still say the same thing.  Again, it would still be this person’s “programming” convincing him/her that he/she is having a negative toned experience when he/she really isn’t.  But if he/she really did truly have a negative toned experience, then I just think that negative and positive toned states have to be bad moods/feelings and good moods/feelings.  So, she would have to be experiencing a bad feeling despite his/her experience of good feelings.

    When we are talking about positive and negative toned states of mind, then isn’t that the very definition of positive and negative emotions?  I’m just not seeing here how you can have a positive and negative toned experience without any emotions whatsoever.  If this is the case, then I would have been right all along that one’s good moods/feelings are the positive toned states of mind.  From there, I said that positive toned states of mind give rise to the perceptual quality of good value and worth in our lives.  So, I think this is right as well.

    I just don’t see it any other way.  I just don’t see how one’s life can be good/worth living to him/her without his/her good moods/feelings.  If anyone thinks otherwise, then they would have to be nothing but biological machines.  I am not sure we would even consider someone like that to even be a human being.   If a person has no need for a positive toned state of mind, then I just don’t see them as actual human beings since, to me, this positive toned state of mind is the very higher, humanistic quality we need in our lives to make us something more than mere biological machines.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  I was thinking positive tone state of mind was something a little different, like the average amount of positive emotions because people can’t always feel positive emotions.  Right now I feel neutral, it’s a positive neutral because I was feeling extremely negative emotions last night.   It must be a more positive neutral then anhedonia because I still have interest and curiosity.  I guess I don’t think it’s possible for a person to be in a state of complete and total misery for very long.  I think it’s very important to keep a log of your moods to make sure.  In my experience my brain tells me that I’ve been in a negative state for longer then I have or it could be my negative mood telling me that.  Moods trick people because the person feels like something is true when it might not be logically true.

    If a person felt nothing but positive moods they wouldn’t know because they wouldn’t have negative moods to be able to tell a contrast with.

    I think some people are born with out positive moods or any moods, they don’t have memories of positive moods to miss.  I think they are disabled in a way, they end up needing help to live, they don’t think their life is worthless.  I don’t know much about them, I’ve just heard of that before. I’m not sure what to say about them being a machine, seems like a judgement to me.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   A positive toned state of mind being a mere concept as how you’ve defined it does not get around my definition of having good value and worth perceived in your life because, like I said before, it requires an actual positive emotion in order to generate the perceptual quality of good value/worth in your life.  This would be no different than if there were a blind person who could see certain moments and blind other moments who redefined sight to mean the average amount of moments he/she could see.  Having this definition of sight would not actually allow him/her to see during his/her moments of blindness.

    In regards to me committing suicide within the reasonable time frame mentioned if I could not recover my positive toned state of mind, I am being denied the very thing that gives my life the higher, humanistic qualities.  I would be denied the very state of mind of a human being and rendered into the state of that of a mere biological machine.  If anyone were to expect me to drag my life on and on like this, then that would be cruel and inconsiderate of me and my human needs.  If someone else were in my situation, I would let them commit suicide.  It doesn’t matter how much grief it would cause me.  It would be cruel/inconsiderate of me to just have them drag their lives on if nothing has worked for them within the reasonable time frame.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Sociopaths can have a positive toned state of mind, they don’t have empathy to make them feel negative about what they’re doing.  People can’t have empathy without emotions but can have emotions without empathy.  Narcissists can feel love but only for themselves so they have no empathy.  These types of people have a positive toned state of mind but no values. Having a positive toned state of mind must not help a person to have values, empathy does.

    <b>My Reply:</b>   If a sociopath/narcissist could only love his/her self and nothing else, then I would agree that he/she would be missing out on the perceptual quality of good value/worth in other things in life.  But it doesn’t matter that this person didn’t have value towards other things because it would still only be our positive toned states that can give our lives the perceptual quality of good value/worth.  So, let’s pretend that you were in a completely mechanistic state, you could have values in regards to a numerous amount of things in your life and you can definitely think that so many things in your life have value to you.  But you would not be able to actually perceive any of that good value/worth in your life without the positive toned state.

    I will give one last example.  If a person were in a mechanistic state where he/she had no positive toned state of mind, but could actually feel horrible about the sinister deeds he/she has committed, then that would give him/her the perceptual quality of bad value in his/her life.  But who wants to live a bad or mechanistic life that has no good value?  That is why you need the positive toned state since this is the state that, not only gives you the perceptual quality of real good value/worth in your life, but it is also the light to your life.  Let me give you an analogy.

    If there were a sociopath in the realm of the light (the positive toned state) who could not feel bad (be in a negative toned state) in regards to his/her sinister deeds while another person was in the realm of complete darkness who could feel bad in regards to any sinister deeds he/she has committed, then would you rather be the sociopath or the person in the realm of the darkness?  Would you rather have empathy or not?  Remember, and this is a very important point, the person in the darkness is unable to perceive any good value/worth whatsoever in his/her life.  He/she is in complete darkness, misery, and can only perceive bad value in regards to certain things and situations.

    <b>Other Person’s Response:</b>  Yes, I understand why the person would rather be a sociopath.  I also understand why a person would want to commit suicide, I have wanted to many times before.

    <b>My Reply: </b>  I, personally, would choose to be that sociopath because I am fed up with all of the bullshit of society.  They expect me to drag my life on and on serving others, making the best of my life, etc. when my life is nothing but completely dead to me, empty to me, and has nothing but the worst possible value to me.  It is my light-filled state of mind that matters to me.  This is what is so precious to me.  Not about what anyone else says to me and what their judgments are of me.  Sure, others could perceive the good value/worth in me and see me as something more than a mere biological machine through their positive toned states of mind (good emotions).  But, in reality, I would be completely dead on the inside.  My state of being would be nothing more than something mechanistic and even worse.

    I detest the mindsets of people who think I don’t need a positive toned state of mind and to just carry on with my life anyway.  These people cannot begin to comprehend my higher, humanistic need to be in that positive toned state of mind.  So, my mindset would be how a true human being would think since human beings have a need for higher, humanistic qualities in their lives (i.e. that positive toned state of mind) while these other people have the mindset of machines since they see no need for it.  These people would be in their higher, humanistic state (their positive toned states of mind).  But they would have the mindset of machines and that makes me angry since they, as mechanical thinkers, cannot comprehend my humanistic way of thinking.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by Matt.
    #159510
    Matt
    Participant

    I am now going to give you the link that perfectly explains my definition of good and bad. If you don’t wish to read the entire debate, then just read what is in bold at the very beginning:

    http://fav.me/dbgkmdl

    #158422
    Matt
    Participant

    I have created a summary packet in case people don’t have the time and patience to read the packets I’ve mentioned above. Here it is:

    http://fav.me/dbgkmdl

    #141011
    Matt
    Participant

    Many people would say that having a beautiful life-filling experience, having a mechanical, dead, lifeless experience, and having a horrible experience are merely value judgments.  I do not agree that they are.  I think they are actual experiences like sight and hearing.  Sight and hearing are not value judgments.  They are actual experiences that can be taken away from you such as if you became blind or deaf.  In that same sense, any beautiful life-filling experience in your life can be taken away from you since that is an actual experience like sight and hearing.  That experience would be our good feelings.

    Good value/worth and bad value are not judgments either.  They are synonymous with our good (pleasant) feelings and our bad (unpleasant) feelings.  Having good feelings in your life is always a beautiful life-filling experience and will always bring good value/worth to your life, having no feelings at all would always be a dead mechanical experience and will always bring no value to your life, while having bad feelings will always be a horrible experience that will always bring bad value to your life.

    #140997
    Matt
    Participant

    That still all goes back to what I said before:

    “If you personally define a version of sight when you are blind or a version of hearing when you are deaf, then that would not be any real sight or hearing. It would be a dead, lifeless, mechanical experience of sight and hearing since it would not be any real experience of sight and hearing.”

    Therefore, if I was experiencing an unpleasant feeling such as depression or misery and I thought that it was a beautiful life-filled experience for me, it wouldn’t be.  The experience itself is still horrible regardless of how I think about it.

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