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What I've learned from my struggle with depression

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    Matt
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    Reader’s Intro:  This is a packet where I have come up with my own definition of value, worth, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, love, hate, and misery.  Everybody has something that gives value and worth to their lives.  Therefore, I wish to share to you how I define value and worth in my own life.  The reason why I call it the ‘evolutionary definition of good and bad’ is for reasons revealed later on.  I have struggled with depression and misery much of my life due to traumatic life events and ocd thoughts.  I have learned many things from this personal experience and I wish to share to you and others what I have learned.

    I am firmly convinced that I am not deluding/blinding myself in any way in regards to my personal experiences.  I think it is instead other people who are delusional.  That would have to be an agree to disagree scenario.  But anyway, continuing on here.  I think this definition is actually a universal definition that applies to all human beings because there is the difference between supporting your views from personal opinion as opposed to what we actually know is true.  For example, if someone said:

    “The color red is the best color and all other colors aren’t anything good.  I am right and everyone else is wrong.”

    Then this would be the person’s opinion.  However, if a person has been convicted of a crime based upon all the clues (evidence), then this would not be an opinion.  It would be a rational and justified conviction.  Even though I say there is no evidence later on for my definition, I think there really is.  Therefore, I will present you everything we know that leads me to a conviction that I think is rational and justified.  If others don’t agree with it, then it is just my personal conviction.  I am not trying to insult anybody or anything of the sort.  I just wish to share to you what I’ve learned from my personal experiences.

    I would also add that I don’t think there is any evidence that any other definition is real.  Given everything I have said in this packet, I think it makes it quite uncertain whether any other definition is real.  As a matter of fact, I think it makes it quite obvious that any other definition is wrong.  You can bring up any point you like that attempts to prove how there really is evidence, but I think that all of the counterpoints I would make would clearly indicate otherwise.  However, it could be the case that some counterpoint (s) might actually convince me that my whole definition is wrong.  But I don’t think this is going to happen.

    So, I will present to you my definition here in this reader’s intro.  If you are pressed for time and don’t have the time and patience to read this entire packet, then just read what is in this reader’s intro.  The reader’s intro ends with a bolded notice at the end which reads:  “End of Intro.”  If you even have time to read more, then I would also highly recommend at least reading the 1st response and my reply to it since that is the most important one.

    From there, it you still have time, read the 2nd response/reply since that is the 2nd most important one.  The 3rd response/reply would then be the 3rd most important one.  Lastly, the 4th response/reply would be the 4th most important one for you to read.  On a further note, I post a logical argument later on near the end in this reader’s intro which has 4 premises with bolded numbers and a conclusion in bolded words.

    If you are really pressed for time and you just want to skip right on down and read it, then go ahead because it basically sums up my entire view quite well.  The logical argument is titled “My Hedonistic Logical Argument” in bolded words.  Although, for anyone out there who has time to read this packet, I would highly recommend that you actually read this entire intro since it gives more insight.  So, I will now present to you my definition:

    Light=good = positive toned state of mind=good emotions (good moods/feelings)=the perceptual quality of good value, joy, beauty, love, inspiration, happiness, and worth in one’s life.

    Darkness=bad=negative toned state of mind=bad emotions (bad moods/feelings)=the perceptual quality of bad value, suffering, torment, hate, and misery in one’s life.

    Blank=neutral=neutral (mechanistic) toned state of mind=neither good nor bad emotions (neither good nor bad moods/feelings)=the perceptual quality of no value, no worth, no joy, no suffering, no beauty, no love, no hate, and no happiness in one’s life.

    Emotions are everything to being human.  Without emotions, then we would just be biological machines.  This would have to mean that it is not us as human beings who give whatever value and worth we want to our lives.  Rather, it would be our emotions that do.  Our emotions dictate the type of perceptual value we have as human beings and the type of perceptual value we have in our lives.  It is not a matter of value judgment upon my part in saying that it is our emotions that make things valuable to us.

    Rather, our emotions (moods/feelings) possess a quality of experience to them which gives them this power over our lives since a non emotional quality of experience possesses a mechanistic tone and cannot possibly yield any real perceived value/worth to our lives.  If you experienced a very profound and beautiful feeling of joy or excitement from being out in nature or getting a new present, then you would not only display profound, beautiful, and excited gestures and expressions, but you would also say something such as:

    “This is so beautiful and amazing to me!  This is something really good to me and it is really worth something to me!”

    This is not a matter of the person’s thinking projecting a value judgment and thinking these things are good, beautiful, amazing, and worthwhile to him/her.  Like I said before, thoughts alone without emotions are nothing more than mechanistic experiences and we would be nothing more than biological machines.  They can help us make wise choices and help save our lives, but that is it.  Thus, these thoughts/outlooks alone would not give any real perceptual experience of good value/worth to our lives.  So, it is not the person’s thinking here.  Rather, it is his/her state of light-filled consciousness (good mood/feeling) that is giving him/her the experience of good value, beauty, worth, and joy perceived in his/her life.  It is his/her pleasant mood that is putting him/her in a heightened state of conscious paradise.

    I explain in my non bolded summary that our good moods/feelings are the actual perceptual awareness (conscious experience) of good value/worth to our lives.  Now, I don’t believe in a god or an afterlife since I am undecided when it comes to the existence of these things.  But if these things were real, then our good moods/feelings would be the divine awareness that transcends all other forms of awareness which are either mechanistic or, even worse, the awareness of nothing but darkness (i.e. suffering, misery, bad value, torment, hate, etc.).

    You might have noticed that I used a value judgment in saying that it would be worse than a biological machine to experience the bad moods/feelings.  But I did not feel anything bad at all in saying that.  Therefore, you might conclude that my life can have real value without my good and bad moods/feelings.  This is still false.  Despite the fact that I use value judgments in my writing, these values cannot be perceived (experienced) without their respective moods/feelings.

    Therefore, I am just saying these value judgments in my writing for convenience sake.  The values might actually be there in some abstract form.  For example, I could acknowledge that Beethoven was one of the greatest composers while in a miserable state without my good moods/feelings, but I would not be able to perceive that value.  The idea of Beethoven would currently be an experience for me that is completely miserable, dead, empty, and insignificant to me.  It is only once I fully recover from such a miserable state that I can be in a conscious state where I am experiencing all the awesomeness and magnificence of Beethoven.

    None of this might make any sense to you even after everything I have explained.  You might think that things can still be good, better, or worse to you even without the associated mood/feeling.  But this would be nothing more than a biological machine’s standard of perceptual value.  It completely leaves out the person’s inner experience and only focuses on the external.  Imagine a person who is having the absolute worst experience of his/her life.  From there, someone comes up to him/her and says:

    “Does that cake look better and more amazing than the other cakes?  See, your life can still have good value/worth to you regardless of how horrible of an experience you are having!”

    This is the reason why we need a higher, humanistic standard that takes into account the person’s inner experience.  I just think that way too many people are being blinded/deluded from their own inner experience and are convinced that they are having an actual perceptual experience of good value/worth in their lives.  Not based upon their own inner experience.  But instead by external factors such as his/her upbringing, conditioning, false teachings of society that focus one’s awareness away from his/her inner experience, external obligations/responsibilities, expectations of others, etc.  Such factors would easily give a false and misleading insight into, not only one’s own inner experience, but what it truly means to live a life that has real good value/worth to you rather than the “robotic” version of good value/worth manufactured by society.

    Even bees and other living organisms live their lives naturally by this robotic/mechanistic version of good value/worth.  Since bees and some other organisms don’t have emotions, then they are nothing more than biological machines.  They live their lives helping others of their kind.  But they don’t have any actual perceptual quality of good value/worth in their lives.  Actually, according to their standard as biological machines they would.  But from a human standard, they wouldn’t.  As you can see here, you don’t need any positive toned state of mind or positive emotional state to live your life, help others, and make the best of things.

    But this does not mean that your life has any real perceptual quality of good value, worth, joy, and beauty to you.  People without their good moods/feelings are living their lives like these mechanistic organisms.  But we as human beings need an awakening here.  We need to be awakened to the realization that we are something more.  This realization will allow us to be awakened to a human standard of perceptual good value/worth in our lives rather than the mechanistic standard that we have been falsely lead to believe is true.

    Anyway, going back to what I said earlier about God and the afterlife.  I do not agree with a God who would send me here to be put through all the horrible traumatic and miserable moments that I’ve struggled with much of my life.  There is simply no excuse for an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, and all just God to not create the perfect blissful utopia life for me and others.

    That is forcing something upon me that denies me the divine awareness that I need in my life.  Especially considering good moods/feelings are very fleeting things.  This divine awareness is all there is to life and being human.  Since it’s all about the divine awareness (good moods/feelings) and nothing else, then I would instead agree with a God who would create a blissful utopia life for all of us where there is no pain, suffering, anhedonia, or misery.

    Some people would say that you cannot experience bliss without pain, suffering, and misery.  If that is the case, then only a little bit of suffering and misery would be needed then and that is it.  But if you can experience bliss without ever having experienced pain, suffering, and misery, then you are already aware of all the good value/worth in your life and you would be deluding yourself to think otherwise because it is no different than how we don’t need to be blind in order to see.  Since you can already see without ever having been blind, then you already have that form of awareness.  It doesn’t matter if you think it’s not sight.  It is still sight.

    As you can see here, my good moods/feelings are the only things I have in my life and it would enrage me if I lost them.  From there, it would further enrage me for others to say to me that I don’t need these good moods/feelings and to just grow up/move on with life anyway.  In a way, it is like they have the mindsets of machines who cannot understand/comprehend my higher, humanistic needs and my higher, humanistic way of thinking.

    If I lost my good moods/feelings due to ongoing depression, misery, or anhedonia and I could not fully or sufficiently recover these feelings back to me within the reasonable time frame of 1-2 years, then I would end my life regardless of what others say to me.  I am being denied the very thing I need and for others to object to my needs just shows how inconsiderate they really are.  That is why I would pay no mind to what they say and I would end my life regardless of how much anger, grief, or hurt it would cause these people.

    Before I continue on, I would like to give a spiritual analogy for our moods/feelings.  Like I said before, I do not actually believe in the supernatural.  I just want to give an analogy to make it interesting.  Our good moods/feelings are not just feelings.  They would be the divine spiritual light energy to our lives as I’ve mentioned before.  When a person has an attractive thought towards a certain mate, then that thought alone is nothing more than a mechanistic experience.  However, the moment this thought summons up spiritual light energy, this light energy fills up the person’s being which puts him/her in a heightened divine state where he/she becomes aware of the attractive beauty of his/her soul mate.

    Our good moods/feelings are the divine spiritual component to our human existence.  Without them, then we would be nothing more than biological machines or, even worse, poisoned with dark spiritual energy (our bad moods/feelings).  A feeling of fear, for example, is a bad feeling that helps protect us.  However, it is still a bad feeling and fills our very being with negative spiritual energy.  But a feeling of the worst misery or hopelessness of your life is the absolute worst dark spiritual energy.  It is nothing but pure poison.

    Now, many people seek the light since the light is good.  The light is everything to our lives because, as long as we are in the dark where our lives are completely destroyed and devoid of all good value/worth, then that is no way to live.  In order to be in the greatest enlightened state, then you would have to be in the greatest feel good state of your life where you experience the most profound and intense good feelings. Therefore, any other way of achieving enlightenment would have to be false.  It would be nothing more than a biological machine’s definition of enlightenment.

    This means that a person can only perceive his/her life as having good value, worth, joy, and beauty to him/her through being in a joyful/beautiful mood.  The more profound and intense of a feel good experience you have, the more perceptual quality of good value/worth you will have in your life.  The less you have, then the less of a human being you become and the less perceptual quality of good value/worth you will have in your life.  People who don’t have these good moods/feelings due to anhedonia, an emotionally traumatic event, or depression cannot perceive any real good value/worth in their lives and they would only be deluding themselves to think otherwise.  That, or their perceptual quality of good value/worth is very slim due to a level of good moods/feelings that is very slim.

    When I say that depressed/anhedonic people are less of a human being since they have very little to no good moods/feelings, I am not saying they are inferior human beings.  I am instead saying that they have lost the light in their lives and are just biological machines.  But if these depressed/anhedonic people were to regain more and more good moods/feelings over time, then they would regain their status as human beings again more and more.  Thus, they would regain the human status of perceptual good value/worth in their lives rather than the mechanistic status.

    Now, this definition of having the perceptual quality of good value/worth in one’s life is the humanistic definition which means that any other definition does not meet this higher, humanistic standard and, therefore, would be nothing more than a biological machine’s definition.  This is the humanistic definition for being in a state of mind/being that qualifies as something more than a mere biological machine.  It would be no different than a situation where there is a race of machines who have a different definition of socializing than a race of humans.

    The machines do nothing more than sit there and perform monotonous calculations with one another.  That is how they define socializing.  This definition does not meet our human standard.  It would completely destroy and take away our human definition and we would be rendered miserable.  Our lives would be empty since they would be miserable.  We as human beings would be denied the higher, humanistic quality of socialization that we need in our lives.

    The humanistic definition of socialization would be the real socialization while the machine’s definition would not be real socialization, according to our humanistic standard.  I realize that my humanistic standard is one set forth by me, but there needs to be one just as how there needs to be one for socialization in my example I gave earlier.  A humanistic standard is a universal standard.  This means that a machine’s definition of socialization would never qualify to meet this standard for human beings.  At least, to the normal human being it wouldn’t qualify.  If it did qualify for any given human being, then this person would not be normal and there would be something wrong with him/her.

    I think my humanistic standard is obviously the only right one because I think it is quite obvious that you need a positive toned emotional state of mind (experience) to perceive good value/worth in your life.  It just makes no sense to me how it can be possible to have any real good value, worth, joy, and beauty perceived in your life without this.  It would have to be nothing more than a biological machine’s definition.  Anyone who is fine with this mechanical definition would be someone not normal and there would also be something wrong with him/her.  That, or he/she has been deluded and needs to be awakened to the realization that he/she is living like nothing more than a biological machine with no real good value/worth perceived in his/her life.

    I will give you a personal example.  During my worst miserable moments, I have chosen to get help since I wanted my life to change for the better.  One could say that I really did have an actual perceptual quality of good value and worth in my life since these people would say that getting help had good value/worth to me.  But they would be wrong.  I can honestly tell you, from my own personal experience, that this experience does not meet the human standard to any degree whatsoever.  My life was still completely empty, hell, the worst life with the worst perceived value, and devoid of any real perceived good value, worth, joy, and beauty.  This means that I have simply chosen to get help knowing that it was a wise decision.

    But it was nothing more than this.  Me saying that this experience does not meet the human standard is, again, not a matter of my value judgment.  It would be no different than a situation where I was blind and reported to you that I could not see.  This is not a matter of value judgment on my part.  It is instead a matter of the experience itself.  I was experiencing no sight and, therefore, I truly could not see.  In that same sense, what I was experiencing during my worst miserable times was not a light-filled state of consciousness that would have allowed me to perceive a quality of good value/worth in my life that meets the humanistic standard.  I was instead in a state of mind (consciousness) that could only perceive a biological machine’s definition of good value/worth.

    Sure, a positive toned state of mind/positive emotional state might have been there since this might be the only explanation as to why I have chosen to get help during my moments of complete and utter misery.  However, there was still no light in my life.  Therefore, this would be a biological machine’s definition of a positive toned state of mind/positive emotional state.  So, basically, it was nothing more than a biological drive allowing me to get help.  But, again, my life was missing the higher, humanistic quality of light (my good moods/feelings) in order to make me and my life something joyful, beautiful, good, and worthwhile to me.  Therefore, there really was no real positive toned state of mind/positive emotional state there at all during my moments of misery.

    If you experience physical pain, then this experience being unpleasant for you is not a value judgment.  It is an actual experience.  Likewise, having experiences in your life that you perceive to be hell, joyful, beautiful, horrible, good, bad, worthwhile, etc. for you is not a matter of value judgment either.  These qualities can only be perceived (experienced) through our good and bad moods/feelings since, again, these are qualities that are something more than a biological machine.  When I had nightmares, I experienced horrible altered states.  These altered states were crippled states since I was in the most crippled/hopeless state of my life during my miserable moments.  These altered nightmare states were the worst hell.  That is not a value judgment.

    My conscious state was in a state of the most horrible hell.  In these nightmares, there were horrific imagery and scenes.  There were also horrific sounds and other horrific stimuli.  But then there were the horrible altered crippled states/feelings.  If I were to only experience the horrific stimuli and not the horrible altered states/feelings, then this nightmare would not have been anything horrible to me at all.  Those stimuli would not actually be anything horrible to me at all.  Thus, this nightmare would have had no impact upon me whatsoever.  I would have awoken from it just fine.  But it is only through these horrific altered states/feelings that I become aware (experience) the horror of these nightmares.  I know all of this from personal experience since this has happened to me.

    As for empathy, if it is not an emotion (mood/feeling), then it, in of itself, cannot give a person’s life the perceptual quality of any good/bad value in his/her life.  If it is, then it is only through feeling good in helping someone out that you can actually see the good value and worth in doing that.  Feeling bad will always make you see it as a bad thing that you hurt someone else.  If you were to be compelled to make up for the harm you did, then it would only be because this was such a horrible situation to you.  Not because it was anything good to you to make up for it.  The same thing applies for strength of character and character growth/development.  If these things do not offer a positive emotional experience, then they, too, cannot yield any real perceptual quality of good value/worth to a person’s life.

    Now, there could actually be two types of emotions or positive toned states of mind.  If you were to be in your normal state of well being which is the brain’s normal healthy state or if you were to feel joyful and excited over a new video game or movie, then this is a good emotion and a positive toned state.  So, this is the first type.  The 2nd type would be choosing to make the best of your life anyway and pushing forward in life despite the absence of those aforementioned feel good states.

    One could say that a positive emotion or positive toned state is somehow there driving this depressed/anhedonic individual.  I’m not sure there is.  It could be a matter of the person simply making choices.  But the question is, if this truly is a positive toned state or an emotional state, does this experience meet the humanistic standard?

    Or is it nothing more than the will to carry on in life and make the best of things like a deluded biological machine who thinks his/her life is good and worthwhile to him/her, but, in reality, is not actually perceiving any real good value/worth in his/her life?  From my own personal experience, I think that the 1st type of good moods/feelings are all there is to life.

    I think they are the only experiences that meet the humanistic standard of being in a state of mind where your life has a real perceived quality of good value/worth to you.  This would mean that the definition of a positive toned state of mind/positive emotional state without the 1st type of good moods/feelings would, again, be nothing more than a biological machine’s definition.

    Now, having good value and worth perceived in your life can only be a positive tone of experience for you.  It would make no sense to say that having good value and worth in your life is either a negative tone of experience or neither positive nor negative (i.e. mechanistic).  Since our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the positive tone as I’ve just explained earlier, then it would obviously follow that it can only be our good moods/feelings that give our lives real good value and worth.

    For example, if someone said:

    “My life is worth living,” “These things and situations have worth to me,” or “Good, I get to get what I want now.  This situation has a lot of worth to me.”

    Then that is a positive tone.  Even if you screamed and said:

    “GOOD, HE/SHE DESERVES TO DIE!!!  THAT IS WORTH SOMETHING TO ME!!!”

    Then that is also a positive tone.  It is a positive outlook (experience) for you.  But, like I said, it is only the good moods/feelings we get which can give our lives positive tones of experience.

    To present this in a brief logical argument form, I will present the premises below and my conclusion:

    My Hedonistic Logical Argument

    1.)  Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, inspiration, love, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a positive tone.  In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a positive experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

    2.)  Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a negative tone.  In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a negative experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

    3.)  Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a neutral (mechanistic) tone.  In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

    4.)  Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the positive tone, our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the negative tone, and a non feeling experience can only possess a neutral (mechanistic) tone.  A non feeling experience actually does possess a positive and negative tone.  However, it would be a positive and negative tone that only meets a biological machine’s standard.  It would be nothing more than a mechanistic positive and negative tone that does not meet the human standard.  It would be no different than having a positive and negative charge on a battery versus the positive and negative qualities of our human experience.

    Therefore,

    Conclusion:  Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a humanistic quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives bad value, suffering, misery, agony, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives no value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, happiness, love, or misery.

    People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings.  But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives.  In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

    You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person’s life.  Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them.  But, again, their actual experience possesses no positive quality.  They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of good value/worth perceived in their lives.

    Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person’s life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

    If you don’t agree with my definition and have any objections to it, then this is the reason why this packet is so long.  There is a response/replies section below where I engage in a discussion with other people in order to clear up any objections others might have.  If all of these objections get cleared up, then my entire philosophy should become perfectly clear to you.  Once it becomes perfectly clear to you, you can then decide whether you agree with it or not.  But as long as I present my philosophy in its very beginning stage without any responses from other people and my replies to clear up any objections, then that leaves plenty of room for people to, not only disagree with my views, but to also name call me and display contempt and/or a scorning attitude towards me.

    However, if these objections get cleared up, then it is far more likely that people will understand me and my views.  They will finally see my views for what they truly are.  If people don’t fully understand my views and name call me or mistreat me, then that causes me frustration knowing that people do not yet see how my views really are accurate and how I am really onto something here.  Lastly,  I also say some of the same things from other packets since these are new people who have never read my packets before.  I also say some of the same things to other people since they have never heard my responses to the other people I have conversed with.

    Lastly, to summarize my whole view, my good moods/feelings are like a sacred, holy, and divine joy, love, beauty, good value, happiness, and worth to my life.  They are very profound experiences and there is absolutely no other experience like them.  They are the only experiences that make me a beautiful being of light.  All other experiences are either mechanistic or nothing but misery, perceived bad value, and suffering which either make me nothing more than a machine or a disgusting human being of darkness.  I was really wondering if I could have the exact same experience my good moods/feelings offer me, but without the good moods/feelings.  Like I said, I just don’t think such a thing exists.  I really think that all other experiences are nothing more than dead and mechanistic that will yield no light to my life. /End of Intro

    I am going to give a newer and better summary for all of my packets that talk about my definition of value, worth, joy, beauty, love, happiness, suffering, and misery.  I call it the evolutionary definition of good and bad which is supposed to be an objective definition that applies to all human beings.  Maybe you shouldn’t even consider my view to be a philosophy.  Perhaps you could view it as an objective claim I am making.  My personal and profound experience has led me to this claim (hypothesis).  Even though I say there is no evidence for it, I wish to share and talk about it anyway.  If there really is evidence out there for my claim, then I would not know how we would go about discovering it.  In addition, everything I am saying might be complete nonsense, but it is my own personal experience/conviction and I want you to read it anyway.

    According to my definition of value and worth, it is only pain and pleasure (the pain/pleasure principle) that dictates the value of our lives.  We do not personally define our own value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in our lives.  Rather, evolution does through pain and pleasure.  That is why I call my definition the evolutionary definition of good and bad.  Now, this is a summary for anyone who is pressed for time and doesn’t have the time to read all of my main packets.  Although, I would really recommend you fully read this packet and read all of my main packets because that will give you, others, my parents, and my therapist a full insight into who I am, how I think, and what my values are.  Lastly, some of the things I say in this packet are the same things I say in later ones.

    This is because I am taking what I have said in my other packets and putting it here as a part of this packet since these points are very important to reiterate in my summary packet.  I didn’t do a literal copy/paste.  Rather, I say things which sort of resemble the things I say in later packets.  I also post responses and replies after this brief summary.  Read them as well if you have the time and patience since they are important as well.  Therefore, I will now present to you this summary:

    Our good moods/feelings are not just pleasant experiences and nothing more.  They are something far more and many people don’t realize it.  They are the actual awareness of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in our lives.  When you are in a state of well being (feeling good), then that is the awareness (experience) of all the goodness and joys of this life.  There is no other experience besides our good moods/feelings that can give us this awareness.  Our good moods/feelings are a transcended awareness and all other experiences (forms of awareness) are nothing but mechanistic forms of awareness that give no real good value or joy to a person’s life at all.

    Sight and hearing are forms of awareness that allow us to visualize objects and perceive sound.  You cannot give yourself sight and hearing by thinking to yourself that you can see and hear when you are blind and deaf just as how you also cannot give your life good value and happiness by thinking that your life has good value and happiness without your good moods/feelings.  This means that our good moods/feelings allow us to “see” just like how sight allows us to see things.  Except, sight allows us to see objects while our good moods/feelings allow us to see all the good value, beauty, and joys of this life.  Empathy/strength of character does not give us the awareness of good value and worth in our lives.

    It only makes us want to help others and carry on in life despite the miserable times.  That is how many people are wired since it benefited our survival and the survival of others.  It, along with our conditioning, deludes us into thinking that a life without good moods/feelings can still be a life that has real good value and joy to us since, again, this deluding quality benefited our survival and the survival of others.  But this is all a lie.  It is only through pleasure (feeling good) and pain (feeling bad) that we become aware of the good, the bad, the joy, the suffering, the beauty, and the happiness in our lives.  Therefore, depressed and anhedonic people are living lives that have no good value and no worth to them and they don’t even realize it.  Some actually do.  But some don’t and, unfortunately, still think their lives have real good value and happiness.

    Lastly, I will now present to you another person’s response to my summary and my reply to it.  Actually, it is multiple responses and replies.  This is to clear some things up and address some issues others might have with my whole philosophy:

    Other Person’s Response:  Imagine a situation where my family could go through the worst torture and I was the only one who could save them.  According to your view, if I could only feel good in regards to other situations, then my life would have nothing but good value and worth to me while the dire situation my family is in wouldn’t matter to me.  I would think it would be a wise decision to save them, but it really wouldn’t matter to me.  It wouldn’t be anything good or bad to me.

    From there, your view would say that this wouldn’t make me a bad person to just leave my family to be tortured and go watch the movies or play the new video game that I instead felt so excited about.  It would actually make me a beautiful being of light because, according to your view, good moods/feelings are the only things that make us and our lives beautiful.  You see, this is the type of example your worldview advocates.

    My Reply:  This is correct.  But if other people felt that you were a horrible person, then you would be a horrible person from their perspective.  But, from the perspective of your inner self, you would be a beautiful being of light and your life would be beautiful to you.  In other words, it doesn’t matter how others feel about you.  The fact that others see you as a terrible person cannot be anything bad to you since you are not feeling anything bad from that.  You are experiencing your own inner light and that is what makes you beautiful on the inside from your own inner perspective.

    Of course, I would definitely go and save my family’s life in your scenario since I would think they deserve to be saved.  It would be nothing more than a wise decision on my part, but I would still do it anyway knowing that they were kind and innocent people in my life.  Given all of this, you might think that my worldview is ludicrous, but let me finish.  First off, I think how we feel about certain situations is truly the only way evolution has allowed us to perceive said situations as having good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, or suffering to us.

    It is not a matter of us as human beings being some sort of sadistic and cruel creatures leaving others to be tortured.  It might definitely appear as such on the surface, but, in reality, it would be no different than blaming and name calling an amputee since he/she could not do the things that a normal limbed person could do.  It would also be no different than blaming and name calling a mentally handicapped person since he/she did not have the mental capacity of a normal person.

    Likewise, you would be unfairly name calling and blaming someone who did not go to work because he/she did not feel like it, you would be unfairly name calling and blaming someone who didn’t save the life of an innocent family member when he/she did not feel like saving him/her, etc.  But, at the same time, if those people who name called you and blamed you felt angry, they would be unfairly name called and blamed as well.  Therefore, I guess none of our actions have any real reason to be blamed because this is just how we felt.

    However, I think police would still send criminals to prison since they felt that these criminals were horrible people deserving of punishment.  But as for your local cop who did not feel up to the job, he would just let a criminal go and eat at a doughnut shop.  But I could actually be wrong about this one because we are still wired to make decisions and choices anyway knowing that they are wise decisions even if they had no good or bad value to us.

    We have the emotional brain and then we have the logical brain.  These two brain areas were meant to work together.  If you were in the process of making a very important logical decision that could change your life, then you would need that feel good burst of energy to allow you to actually perceive said decision as having good value/worth to you.

    If you didn’t get that good feeling, then it is either because this is evolution’s way of telling you that this decision is nothing good to you or it would be because you had some sort of mental health condition such as anhedonia where you couldn’t feel good.  Many people want to leave the emotional brain out of the picture since they think it is trivial and that feelings are nothing important.

    You see depressed and anhedonic people do this all the time.  They just carry on in life and do their jobs like biological machines since they are burdened with obligations and responsibilities.  But these people are being denied the good value, joy, beauty, and worth perceived in their lives.  So, our logical brain is simply a decision making/personality machine while it is our good moods/feelings which are the perceptual experience of good value, worth, and joy to our lives.

    I will give you one last example.  When a mouse gets a reward stimulation and feels very good, it is driven towards the mate, food, or toy that it felt great from.  This phenomenon clearly indicates that the food, mate, or toy had immense good value/worth to this mouse.  But if the mouse had depression or anhedonia, then it would not engage in activities.  It would not bother with mates, food, or toys.  I think it would.  But on a smaller scale.  The mouse, in this situation, would just simply be engaging in activities like a biological machine.  But it would be devoid of the perceptual experience of good value/worth that would have really driven this mouse into these activities.

    Other Person’s Response:  If feeling good is the only way to a life that is perceived to be of good value to an individual as you say, good feelings are only momentary things.  They are brief states of arousal that only last for brief moments before fading away.

    My Reply:  Actually, there is another feel good state besides the states of arousal.  It would be the brain in its normal, relaxed state of well being.  This is a state of mind that lasts 24/7 since this is the brain’s normal healthy state.  This state gives us a constant 24/7 perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in our lives.  This is very convenient for us because, if it were only the states of arousal that gave our lives the perception of good value, then we would always have to wait for those states of arousal to occur in order to perceive our lives as having good value to us.  Fortunately, this is not the case and evolution has made it convenient for us.

    However, states of feel good arousal such as feeling excited give our lives an enhanced perceptual quality of good value in our lives.  The generalized feel good state simply gives our lives a sufficient and stable perceptual quality of good value.  But if you were to have both your good feelings of arousal along with your generalized feel good state taken away due to, for example, an emotionally traumatic event in your life that put you into a completely hopeless/depressed state, then you could no longer perceive any good value in your life.  Only once you fully recover and have these good moods/feelings back would your life have all the good value and joy to you once more.

    Lastly, unlike the version of good value that is normally defined, my definition isn’t a stable and continuous version of good value that a person can have in his/her life since our moods are always changing.  Moments where you feel very bad are the moments where your life has bad value to you while moments where you feel good or neither good nor bad are the moments where your life has good value to you or neither good nor bad value to you.

    In addition, we can also have mixed feelings/emotions.  So, if you were in a generalized state of well being, but felt a little bit bad at the same time, then your life would be half good and half bad depending on the degree of good and bad feelings you are experiencing.  If it is just a little bit of a bad feeling and the rest is a good feeling, then things, situations, and moments in your life would be something like 20% bad and 80% good to you.

    Other Person’s Response:  Life would simply be a disaster without these non feeling values.

    My Reply:  Even if the type of world we would all be living in would be chaos without these non feeling values, that still doesn’t change my views here.  If we were to somehow realize that these non feeling values weren’t real and the world were to become chaos, then that is just the way it is.  That is just what we are as human beings then.

    Other Person’s Response:  If you were not experiencing any good feelings due to chronic depression or some traumatic life experience and you could obtain the greatest eternal blissful life of your dreams right now, then wouldn’t that have good value and worth to you?  Wouldn’t you choose to remain in this life to obtain that eternal blissful life even without your good feelings?

    My Reply:  My answer to this would be that it would not be of any good value and worth to me.  Like I said, I would have to feel good about the idea of this blissful dream life in order for it to have good value and worth to me.  However, that would not stop me from choosing to stay in this life to obtain that blissful life.  It would be a wise decision on my part.  I would choose to stay in this life to obtain this blissful life because I know that it would be the wise decision to make.  I would know that my life would soon have the greatest good value and joy it could possibly have.

    Likewise, if someone were to tell me that there is an eternal hell of the worst torment awaiting for me and that I have to do something now to avoid it, then if, let’s pretend, that all my bad feelings were completely disabled, the idea of this eternal hell cannot be of any bad value to me.  But, again, I would certainly choose to avoid this hell knowing that it would be the wisest decision of my life.  I would also certainly choose to save my mother’s life from an eternal hell knowing that she deserves to be saved.  However, like I said, that situation wouldn’t be of any bad value to me if I wasn’t feeling bad and neither would it have any good value and worth to me either to save her life if I wasn’t feeling good.

    But let me actually be a bit more open minded here.  We are talking an eternal blissful life here for me which is something I have always yearned for as the afterlife of my dreams.  It could be possible that I would have an actual perceptual experience of good value/worth towards this dream life and obtaining it.  Likewise, it could be possible that I would be able to have an actual perceptual experience of bad value in regards to both me and my mother being tormented in hell forever.  But I just don’t know here.  I don’t know how this would work out.

    If I were in these types of situations, then I would report back to you whether what I have experienced was a machine’s definition of good and bad value or a version of good and bad value that actually meets the human standard.  But just to stick with my evolutionary definition, I would say that I wouldn’t experience any real perceived good and bad value in these situations.  Lastly, I said it would be a wise decision to me to take action to obtain that blissful life.  One might think that it being wise to me is the very definition of it having good value/worth to me.

    You would be right.  I really would be perceiving good value/worth towards obtaining this blissful dream life despite my misery.  However, this would be a biological machine’s definition of good value/worth being perceived.  So, it would only be a wise (good) decision to me from a completely mechanistic point of view.  But from the human standard, it would not be any real good value/worth perceived in my life.  Again, I do not wish to live like a biological machine and nothing more.  I have higher, humanistic needs like anyone else and I have profound humanistic thinking.

    Other Person’s Response:   Hi Matt:

    The short answer is that I saw your later post first (because I clicked on it from a recent topics link) and after realizing this, it seemed more appropriate to “like” the original post.

    But to elaborate, after I re-read the conclusion to your logical argument there are some bits that do seem less clear to me.
    You write that: “People who struggle with depression and anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value..But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. ”

    This seems like a contradiction to me: if you are sincerely having any positive thoughts at all, then there is at least some positivism tone present in your life/mind/heart and therefore some subjective value (however small).

    It doesn’t seem possible to me to think positively without having at least some experience of positivism. So if positive thoughts are present, there is no delusion.

    At the same time I think (?) I understand your larger point, which is that qualities others may value in an individual (character, empathy towards others) can seem meaningless to that same individual without the subjective experience of positivism and/or positive emotions.

    In other words, if I treat others with kindness and am generally speaking a decent human being – my life may have value to others (objectively). But if I have no personal, subjective positive experience at all, those same qualities may seem meaningless to me personally.

    My Reply:   But you can have, for example, loving thoughts that possess no positive experience.  For example, if the most cruel and uncaring sociopath just simply thought to his/herself that he/she loves his/her family when this sociopath really doesn’t love them at all and only wishes to harm them, then these loving thoughts would be nothing more than mechanistic tones of experience.  It would not be any real love at all this sociopath would be having.  People can still have thoughts and act on them, but have tones of experience that contradict those thoughts.  A person can be blinded and deluded from this tone of experience and still think and act out on those thoughts as though they were genuine experiences when they weren’t.

    I will give you an example.  If someone just did something with their lives anyway and thought/said:

    “Well, I am just going to make the best of my life anyway.  Things need to get done here and I am going to do them.  That is a good life worth living for to me.”

    Then this person can be focused only on the moral obligations and responsibilities that he/she has and not upon his/her inner experience.  In other words, he/she can be focused on external things and abstract concepts rather than his/her inner experience which is so precious.  In a way, you could consider this person being dragged along by the obligations and responsibilities of this life.

    What this person is considering to be a good and worthwhile life for him/her is not actually anything based upon his/her inner experience, but rather, upon the external.  Therefore, he/she is living and making the best of things only from an external point of view.  But, again, he/she is blinded and deluded from his/her inner experience due to conditioning, society, upbringing, morals, obligations, etc.

    Even if the person claimed that he/she truly was having a positive toned inner experience without his/her good moods/feelings that gave his/her life real good value and worth to him/her, that doesn’t make it true because there were plenty of people who claimed they experienced a god such as Thor when that wasn’t real.  Again, conditioning, upbringing, society, etc. not only blinds and deludes us from the truth, but it also blinds and deludes us from seeing the truth of our inner experience.

    Although I am truly convinced of my own inner experience which has led me to the conclusion that good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives the perceptual awareness of good value and worth to us, I think it is instead other people who are deluded and are falsely seeing into their own inner experience due to, again, conditioning, society, etc. blinding/deluding them.

    Other Person’s Response:  I think those depressed people you’ve mentioned are, in fact, having a positive tone of experience without their good moods/feelings.  Otherwise, why would they be doing all these sorts of amazing things in their lives and inspiring others?

    My Reply:  But even a highly advanced robot can do the same thing.  It can also perform the same acts, tones, and gestures and claim that its life has the inner experience of real value and real joy since that is what it’s programmed to do.  But the robot would have no inner life (experience).  Likewise, a depressed person’s beliefs, upbringing, morals, empathy, conditioning, and strength of character can be his/her “programming” which makes him/her truly believe that he/she is having an inner experience of real good value and joy in his/her life.  But, in reality, he/she really has no experience of good value, worth, and joy in his/her life.

    Other Person’s Response:
      I would really want to live like a machine.  It sounds like the ideal life for me!

    My Reply:  By having that feel-good perception, then the idea of living like a machine would have good value to you.  But once you become this machine and no longer have your good moods/feelings anymore, then such a life would no longer have this good value/worth to you anymore.

    Other Person’s Response:  Theres so much mest up ways of thinking here. You can claim that you’re trying to not offend anyone and say you’re just expressing your view which is fine but nonetheless youre still putting depressed people into one category. You just wrote “depressed people have no good value and worth in their lives” “depressed people are living lives that have no good value and worth and dont even realize it ” are you kidding how can you glump people together like that and think that a persons feelings and mental ilness automatically equates to having no worth.

    So many people that brought us great things have all been so deeply depressed. Singers, scientists, philosophers have all been people that have brought great value to our lives even with their state of depression. They enriched us with their intelligence and creative minds. There are parents who are raising children that have severe depression and manage to get up every morning and give their child a good life does that sound like someone who has no purpose and value?

    “Depressed and anhedonic people are living lives that have no good value , no worth and they dont evem realize it” thats is such an ignorant stement to make and bring no one any value or use. And I can tell someone their fat and ugky and then say “hey thats just my view not trying to offend anyone ” but it doesnt make it any less offesnsive and it wont make them any less ugly or fat. Also the fact that you equate happiness and feel good feelings as people being with value is so strange to me when again so many happy people do nothing withe their lives or contribute anything to society. Depression does not determine your value as a human being and if thats how you feel about yourself than im sorry but its not good to project such harmful negativity to people that are trying to find light in their current dimmed world.

    My Reply:  I said that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to perceive good value and worth in our lives.  I am not saying that depressed people cannot have any good value and worth to us.  I am saying that they cannot actually perceive any good value and worth in themselves and in their own lives.  If we felt good from a depressed person who has contributed to our lives, then we would be able to see that depressed person as being a wonderful person to us.  But the depressed person who helped us would not be able to perceive his/her altruistic actions as being anything good or worthwhile.

    He/she might think otherwise, but, in reality, he/she is having nothing but an experience that is completely dead inside.  There literally is no good value being perceived in this person’s life at all and he/she is falsely lead into the notion that the right mindset alone creates the perception of good value in our lives when it is really our good moods/feelings that give us this perception.  I think that I have every right to express myself and my views like anyone else.  I will not be alone with them.  I do not care if people become offended by them when my intention was not to offend in the first place, but only to vent and express my views.

    Other Person’s Response:  Well than thats another completly false stament. On the contrary its when you face hard stuff and are in a bad mood / feelings that you appreciate the god stuff and see value in things/people how can you know whats good without experiencing the bad.  Good feelings come from realizing whats good and whats bad. Obviously when youre in a good mood you have a good outlook on life that goes without saying. But how exactly do you think those good feelings and moods are acquired?

    Perception definetly has a lot to do with how you feel can help improve you. We are all born and then we die. No one is guranteed anything in this life we all face the same ending and that is death. One can have the perception that whats the point of anything we all die anyways why try doing anything at all and go into depression mode and do nothing. Someone else can have the opposite perception and say “hey that sucks but here eirher way wether I do something or not im here. Even if i die I want to make value of my life and try to do good and be good” were all going to die and its whats your perception of that inhabitable out come that wil determine your mood and feelings on it. Depressed people can see the good in stuff if they didnt they wouldn’t be here helping others. Also im severly depressed and I do see value in when my actions helpb others especially my loved ones. Not everyone feels the way you do.

    My Reply:  During those horrible moments, nothing in your life would have any good value according to my definition of value.  However, the moment you get out of those horrible times and achieve feelings of joy you’ve never experienced before, then this is the moment where your life would have the good value.  In other words, you can only see good value in those hardships you’ve been through once you can feel good from looking back at those hardships and what you’ve obtained out of it.

    How you think definitely has an impact on how you feel.  But, like I said, thoughts are just thoughts.  It is only when these thoughts make you feel good that you are able to see good value, joy, and beauty in moments, situations, and things in your life.  Lastly, you can live your life helping others and you can live your life in other ways which would imply that your are living a life where you are perceiving good value.  But that doesn’t make it true.  Plenty of people have lived their lives thinking and believing in many false things.  But that doesn’t make those things true either.

    Other Person’s Response:  Basically no one can have a discussion with you because you think You’re right and call other peoples views lies. You told the other person to show you why your stament is wrong and to prove you otherwise but thats no possibel because Youre not concerned with whats true or not you are merely concerned with what is yout opinion of the truth based on your own reality. I will say if thats how you think and feel than youre right but Youre only right when it comes to your own life because otherswisr what you have stated is false and does not apply to anyone else or depressed people in general.

    My Reply:  I think that when it comes to our own personal views (philosophies), that they can only lead to agree to disagree scenarios.  You seem to hold me accountable for only listening to myself and my own views.  But I can turn the argument back around on you and hold you accountable for dismissing my views/philosophy.  As you can see here, I don’t think anyone can be held accountable here.  We just have an agree to disagree scenario and we should just leave it at that.  I just wanted to share and express my views anyway since I felt so frustrated being alone with them and not being able to share them.  I personally am convinced my philosophy applies to everybody while you don’t.  Therefore, this is just an agree to disagree scenario.

    #160280
    Matt
    Participant

    Other Person’s Response:  No because I dont think anyone philosophy applies to everybody unlike you who does think so  which is ignorant beyone belief. ofcourse i hold you accountable because youre expressing your views and putting them down as facts and as being the reality of everyone when thats not the case. Your reality is not my reality and my reality is not your reality. I have severe depression anxiety panic disorder and ocd. Ive been trough multiple traumas in my life and everything Youre saying is false in my reality therefore makes your stament and philosophy wrong because your trying to aply it to my life as a depressed person when im saying its not true for me and you insisit it is lol. Everything you stated is tru for yourself not the general depressed population heak im sure pleanty will say they do feel the same as you but again its not true that it applies to everyone.

    My Reply:  I see no evidence that this non feeling version of value is anything real given everything I’ve explained which certainly opens up the possibility that it really could be fake.  If you have a certain situation and there are two ways of looking at it, then as long as there is no evidence, then it is nothing more than a philosophy.  You cannot say that I am wrong just as how I cannot say you are wrong.  This is just a matter of personal view.  I am personally convinced of my own philosophy based upon all the hell I’ve experienced in my life.  It was a life of the worst misery completely devoid of any good value.  It didn’t matter what I did with my life or what mindset I had.  My life was still completely dead and empty.

    Other Person’s Response:  Exactly hence being true for your own reality. Bye good luck

    My Reply:  Or maybe it should be the case that neither of us should be convinced of our philosophies since there is no evidence to support either of them.  I actually wouldn’t consider my view to be a philosophy.  Rather, I think it is a claim I am making.  Claims are different than philosophies.  Claims are where you say things such as that all human beings are going to die tomorrow.  This is what I am doing since I am saying that the only way all human beings can have good value in their lives is through their good moods/feelings.  Even though I have no evidence to support this claim, no one has any evidence to support their claim either that the non feeling version of value is real.  This should put both of us in a position where we cross our fingers.  However, I am just very doubtful and skeptical about this idea that a person’s life can have good value and happiness without his/her good moods/feelings.

    Other Person’s Response:  Interesting hypothesis Matt, although it does fall apart if you accept that value and worth are relative to the observer. In other words, you may feel worthless and without value, but if someone else feels that you have worth and value, then you have worth and value.

    My Reply:  But what would it matter even if the person did have value and worth? The person without his/her good moods/feelings wouldn’t be able to actually perceive that value and worth in his/herself. Therefore, I find your point moot.

    Other Person’s Response:  Sorry Matt, you’ve changed your thesis from ‘depressed people have no value’ to ‘depressed people are unable to perceive their own value’. I think we all can relate with your modified thesis.

    How big a hole would you leave if you completely disappeared tomorrow? That’s a good way to measure your value. Would your family be sad? Would your spouse miss you? Who would feed your cat?

    Everyone, sick or well, has value.

    My Reply:  But it would only do you good when you can actually perceive that value. Otherwise, you and your life have no value and worth to you. This would even include altruistic endeavors having no value and worth to you either. Also, that was never my thesis to begin with.  But continuing on here.  You say that many depressed people can relate to perceiving no value and worth in their lives.  I think this actually supports my philosophy/claim and I will explain why.

    I think what is going on here is that, when a depressed person perceives no value and worth in his/her life which, by the way, many depressed people do this, then he/she is truly seeing his/her experience for what it is.  But then family, friends, society, etc. comes along and conditions/deludes this individual into thinking his/her life can have good value and worth to him/her.

    This puts the depressed person in a position where he/she becomes deluded from his/her inner experience and becomes falsely convinced that his/her life now has good value, joy, and happiness to him/her with no need for these good feelings and with no need for a depression free life.  However, even if a person is conditioned and deluded, there might be times where he/she is able to truly see into his/her inner depressed experience again and truly see how his/her life has no good value/worth.

    Other Person’s Response:  Perhaps you should define value and worth in the context of your thesis. At our most fundamental level we provide value to the Earth simply by breathing, ergo, if we are alive, we are valuable.  You’re lack of ability to perceive your value does not change the fact that you are valuable.

    My Reply:  But, again, why should my non perceived value matter if I can’t actually perceive it? As far as I would be concerned, there really would be no value in my life at all as long as I could not perceive it.  I need to have the transcended (positive) state of awareness that my good moods/feelings offer me in order to make my life worth living.

    Without that, then there is no way I am going to live and I would just give up on life.  In order for my value to matter to me, then my value must have value to me.  Otherwise, you might as well consider it some sort of abstract value floating out there that I cannot have as a part of my life experience.  If nothing matters to me (doesn’t have any good value to me), then why would I live?  Eventually, if I could not recover my good feelings, then I would end my life.

    If the most cruel and sadistic sociopath were to know that an innocent human being such as his/her mother or father is a person of much value, love, and compassion, then it wouldn’t matter to this sociopath.  The sociopath would still do his/her harmful and cruel actions towards these innocent family members.  As far as this sociopath is concerned, they have no value to him/her and it is instead being harmful towards these family members which has the value to this sociopath (providing that he/she can feel good from his/her harmful actions, according to my definition of value).

    The same scenario applies to me (although I am not a sociopath).  My life would still not matter to me without my good moods/feelings and I would still go through with ending my life providing that I can never regain them.  Even if I had abstract value and worth as a human being that I could not see, it would be useless for me.

    Lastly, I will give you another example of an abstract value.  If I were miserable and I were to witness a famous work of art or an amazing character, then I wouldn’t actually be aware of that magnificence, good value, and beauty that these works of art hold.  Therefore, these works of art would be holding abstract values that I cannot be aware of in the current moment.  The works of art would be completely dead and empty to me as of now.  But the moment I fully recover is the moment I become aware of all those wonderful values.

    Other Person’s Response:  I recognise this user. He’s got himself tangled up in a perfect cognitive loop.I wonder if this Oatmeal comic would help him at all? Gonna try posting it for him at any rate.

    theoatmeal.com/comics/unhappy

    (Sorry for the seemingly terse reply, I’m just really tired!)

    My Reply:  The version of happiness you are pointing out would be having good value and worth in your life. It would be the notion that, even if you didn’t feel good, you still got things done in life anyway. I am saying that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to perceive our lives as having good value and worth to us in the first place. Therefore, good moods/feelings are the only real source of happiness.

    Other Person’s Response:
      Your claim (worldview) sounds quite unique and innovative.  I don’t think too many people can relate to it.  What is it called?

    My Reply:  I think it is called “hedonism.”  Hedonism is a philosophy which says that pleasure is good and pain is bad.  However, I have come up with my very own extension to hedonism which, I will admit, is unique and innovative.  I have taken hedonism a step further by saying that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to become aware of the good value in our lives.  I do not think hedonism has ever presented itself in this fashion.  Therefore, I am dressing up hedonism in a glamorous and innovative fashion.  I have presented my own logical arguments in my replies to the respondents here to support this newer and upgraded version of hedonism.

    It’s like taking a piece of technology and upgrading it with stylish innovation.  This isn’t just an upgrade, it is my own personal conviction.  A hedonistic life is very profound and beautiful to me.  There is no other way of life.  All other ways of life are mechanistic and dead.  A beautiful eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams would be my dream life that I would be so profoundly connected to and grateful for.  I have struggled with much depression, misery, and anhedonia in this life already that I think an eternal utopia life is definitely warranted.  I just don’t know if there really is an afterlife or not since there are skeptics out there who would say there isn’t.

    I wish to be a wild and free animal.  But only in the hedonistic sense.  All other ways of being wild and free are actually nothing more than prisons of hell (misery/hopelessness) or states of mind where everything is completely blank (anhedonia).  I literally see nothing that these people claim a non hedonistic life to be.  They say it is joyful, wild, free, valuable, worthwhile, and beautiful.  But I have experienced absolutely nothing of the sort.

    Other Person’s Response:  What do you have against depressed people?  You are saying their lives have no value and no worth.

    My Reply:  I have nothing against depressed people and neither am I trying to make them feel worse.  I am instead vehemently opposed to a lifestyle of misery and despair which is what I have experienced during my traumatic moments/worries in my life.  Based upon my personal experience, such a life can only be completely miserable, dead, hell, the worst life, and empty.  No good value, worth, or joy can be perceived in such a life.  That is what has compelled me to write this and my other packets.  If my whole philosophy/claim really is true, then that would encourage others to find cures for depression and would also encourage others to create a heavenly, blissful, utopia life here on earth for us as human beings.  This would make my dream life come true here on earth.  Of course, I would be dead and would not get to actually live that life since it would take literally thousands of years for such a life to be created if it ever does.

    Other Person’s Response:  Please be respectful around people’s opinions and beliefs surrounding this subject. Do not offend others. This thread is being watched by admin, and if needed, will take action

    My Reply:  Understood.  I was just trying to find out if my definition of good value/worth is an objective truth no different than the objective truth that we all have one heart that beats and keeps us alive.  That objective truth applies to all human beings and I was wondering if my view does as well.  Honestly, I don’t see it any other way.  Like I said, there is no way I can see how a definition of having perceived good value/worth in your life without a positive toned state of mind (good moods/feelings) is anything other than a biological machine’s definition.  It just makes no sense to me how the absence of a positive toned state of mind is anything other than a mechanistic or, even worse, a negative state filled with suffering, perceived bad value in one’s life, misery, torment, etc.

    Other Person’s Response:  What I understand that you are saying is you think other people with depression that see their life as being worthwhile are delusional. 

    My Reply:  That’s correct.  I am not saying that to be mean or insulting. It is just my personal view I wanted to share.  You can dismiss it if you like or take consideration into it.

    Other Person’s Response:  Hmm, what about people that live by the hope of getting better?  To me that’s the biggest reason that people with depression keep going.

    My Reply:  It still wouldn’t be perceived as being a good and worthwhile life by the depressed individual.  So, it would still be delusional.  The depressed person would simply be taking action to improve his/her life.  But, again, a depressed life can only be a life where you perceive no good value/worth in your life.

    Other Person’s Response:  Why would that be a delusion?  Their life would be worthwhile once they get better or their depression episode ends.

    My Reply:  Once they have the good moods/feelings back to them, then their lives would be perceived as having good value and worth to them.  But while they are actually struggling with the depression, then this is the time where their lives cannot have any good value and worth to them.  It doesn’t matter how much they live for the future or anything else for that matter.  Their lives would still not be of any good value/worth to them. 

    Other Person’s Response:  I think different people with varying levels of depression find varying levels of worth in their lives.  There is an area for anhedonia if that’s only what you’re talking about.   I’m not sure how people with anhedonia feel about life because I had it for only 5 days, it was very irritating.

    I also don’t think most people in a depressive episode are deluded in the way you say they are.  I don’t understand what wrong with empathy and helping people it the person enjoys doing those things.  Also I’m not sure how a person can have empathy if the person is unable to feel emotions.

    My Reply:   If you could not experience any moods/feelings whatsoever, then empathy/strength of character would just simply be a matter of the person having the attitude of:

    “Well, I cannot feel anything at all.  But I am going to help others, make the world a better place, and make the best of my life anyway.  This is something that makes my life good and worth living to me.”

    Other Person’s Response:  What person that can’t feel emotions ever said this^????

    Empathy is sharing in another persons emotion so if you cant feel emotions you can’t have empathy.  An example would be if you help someone and it makes them feel happy then empathy would make you feel happy too.

    My Reply:  All I know is that, when I am miserable and hopeless due to a certain traumatic life event happening to me, all of my good moods/feelings are gone.  There is no positive experience whatsoever to give my life any real good value, worth, or joy during these times.  From there, many people would tell me that you don’t have to feel good.  They would say to me that helping others, making the best of life anyway, etc. would be something that could still give my life good value and worth even without any good moods/feelings.  They would say that even if I had no moods/feelings whatsoever such as due to complete anhedonia, that there are still other ways to live a life that has good value and worth to you.  I just don’t agree with that.

    Other Person’s Response:
      I understand, I’m not going to say these things to you.  I really hope that you can get better and feel that your life is worthwhile again.  There are a lot of people in the anhedonia area that try to figure out a cure for it, I’m not sure if that would help you.

    My Reply:  So, can you see why I come to the conclusion that empathy/strength of character is not rooted in moods/feelings and that it is instead the attitude of making the best of life anyway and helping others?  When, for example, a person has the worst anhedonia of his/her life in which he/she literally cannot experience any emotions (moods/feelings) whatsoever and is in a completely blank state, therapists, family, friends, and other people out in the community would suggest to this person to make the best of life anyway, help others, and that his/her life can still have good value and worth to him/her even without feeling anything whatsoever.  That is why I conclude that empathy/strength of character is not an emotional based trait.  You say it is.  But what I said suggests otherwise.

    Other Person’s Response:  No because you can’t have empathy if you can’t feel emotions, empathy is an emotion based trait.  These people are saying this to you because they don’t understand what you’re going through.  Even therapists have said that to you?  Friends and family say unhelpful stuff a lot because they don’t understand. I’m not sure what strength of character is specifically.

    My Reply:   Strength of character would simply be carrying on in life despite the miserable times.  It isn’t necessarily helping others and caring for others.  It is just carrying on in life anyway despite misery and despair.  Consider strength of character to be the famous quote by Rocky Balboa.  He says life isn’t all about the happy emotions and that how winning is done is through taking a beating and keep on going anyway in life.

    But if you are saying that empathy and strength of character can only be emotions, then that still all goes back to that logical argument I presented earlier which had 4 premises with bolded numbers and a conclusion in bolded words.  I think my logical argument still applies here even when it comes to the good and bad emotions that empathy and strength of character offer.  I still think that it can only be the good emotions that make things and situations of good value and worth to us.

    Other Person’s Response:  No, only empathy is an emotional trait.  I’m not sure if you saw the post above yours, I said you can have sympathy if you are able to feel sorrow and pity. It depends on what emotions you are able to feel.  People don’t want to hurt other people because they have empathy for pain.

    I think your definition of strength of character is not emotional. I think of tolerance, patience, flexibility, or how much a person is able to bear. I don’t think these are emotional traits, I’m not sure what I would call them.  I think every person has different amounts of these and can learn to have more of some.

    My Reply:  Nonetheless, my view would say that it is only the good emotions that can give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us in our lives.  If strength of character really is an emotionless trait, then it cannot give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us.

    Other Person’s Response:  Hmm, this makes me think of people that say “I didn’t know it was good until it was taken away” Because when the good thing was taken away the person felt negative emotions.

    I can see how only having negative emotions would make a person feel like life isn’t worthwhile.

    Knowing what values you think are good also has to do with negative emotions though, like knowing not to hurt people.
    Sometimes people have strength of character because not having it would hurt other people.

    The problem with your argument is you are talking about different things like they are the same. There is only 1 I can agree with.

    My Reply:  Actually, negative emotions would still only give your life the perception of bad value even after everything you have explained and I will explain why.  If you felt bad because you hurt someone else, then you wouldn’t stop hurting that person because it is a good thing to you to do so.  Rather, you would stop because the situation was horrible to you.  It is only once you feel good from the idea that this person shouldn’t be harmed that it would now be a good situation to you to not harm this person.

    Other Person’s Response:  I don’t think there’s such a thing as good or bad value, I haven’t heard of that before, people only have values.   I usually don’t use the words “good” or “bad”  because they are judgments.

    I guess in this example it would be neutral because it didn’t create any emotions.

    I can see how a person without positive emotions wouldn’t have motivation to help other people or do anything except prevent pain.  I don’t think the person would be able to be selfish either, seems like that factors in somewhere.  It seems like a lot of people with anhedonia are very motivated to get their emotions back though, maybe remembering what emotions are like does something.

    My Reply:  Do you think that there are other experiences that have a positive tone besides good emotions?  I’m not sure there is.  I think that, as long as you don’t have good emotions, then you can have nothing but an experience that either has a negative tone or an experience that has a mechanistic tone.

    Other Person’s Response:  Hmm, I want to say physical sensations the I’ve heard the other people with anhedonia say that they lost interest in food and things like that.  I’m not sure either, there must be something that’s keeping the other people with anhedonia going and motivating them to get better.  I didn’t have anhedonia long enough to find out.

    It seems very complex.  There was this study were they would make people wait in this room that was empty except for a pain device.  The people ended up hurting themselves because they would rather feel pain then nothing and boredom, that seems weird. .

    I don’t know because I’m so used to having emotions, I don’t know what it’s like to be without them except for irritating.
    I would ask this: “I was wondering if there were other states of mind besides good emotions that would possess a positive tone?”  in the anhedonia area.  I don’t think that would be triggering.

    Talking about another persons worth is triggering, a lot of people here already struggle with feeling worthless.  It seems like a life that you could never get back again if you lost it is pretty valuable and worth a lot.  Maybe just living is positive.

    Are you still trying to make a religion or something?

    It’s late here so I have to go.

    My Reply:
      All I am trying to do is to perfect my whole view (philosophy) so that other people, including my therapist, will have a complete insight into who I am as a person, how I think, and what my values are.  That way, I can get help if I ever need it.  I would get the proper help that I need rather than some pep talks here and there that don’t help me.  But continuing on here.  I am not going to live just to live life and nothing more.  I need to be in a certain state of conscious awareness in order to make my life worth living to me.  That state would be a state that has a positive tone of experience for me.  My life needs to have a positive perceptual tone of experience.  Otherwise, I am not going to live anymore.  I really think that it is through only have this positive state of awareness that one’s life can have real good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to him/her.

    Other Person’s Response:  I see. What kind of help do you need or are going to need?  Do you know what your values are?  Do you have anhedonia or not anymore?  Is it okay if I ask what the trauma that happened to you is? I’m wondering what emotions you can feel and if you found anything close?  Is there anything that makes you feel better at all?

    I’m not sure what this “certain state of conscious awareness” or “positive perceptual tone of experience” is. Sounds like you need God or something.  Health? Mindfulness in the moment?  (I’m trying to think of the things I learned in therapy)

    My Reply:  I don’t believe in god or the afterlife.  All I am saying is that I need my life to be in a positive state of experience in order to make my life worth living.  If it is a state of mind that possesses nothing but a negative or neutral (mechanistic) tone, then I would give up on life.  There is no way I am living and doing my hobbies like that.  My whole values and philosophy was based around this idea that a positive tone of experience is needed in order to give rise to the perception of good value and worth in one’s life and that, since good emotions are the only source of that positive toned experience, then they can be the only things that can give our lives the perception of good value and worth to us.

    I could be wrong, but I just don’t see it any other way.  If I am going to have a positive toned state of mind, then it has to actually qualify as the humanistic standard.  Otherwise, I would give up here as well since my life would still be perceived as nothing to me.  On a further note, I am actually doing mostly just fine now.  I am almost to a state of full recovery from this emotionally traumatic experience I’ve had.

    Other Person’s Response:  That’s good you’re doing better now.  You do feel pleasure and positive emotions now? I’m very confused if you feel positive emotions or not.   Are you scared that you’re going to have anhedonia again?   I’m wondering why you are still stuck on this.

    My Reply:  I am experiencing positive emotions again on some significant degree.  Just in case something happens to me again and, this time, it is a virtually lifelong chronic absence of my good moods/feelings due to chronic depression or anhedonia, then it is imperative that I present my views and philosophy to my therapist and other people so they can truly know me, what I am going through, and how to help me if possible.

    Other Person’s Response:  I guess it would be helpful to have a back up plan just in case, they were able to help you somehow though.  I can’t come up with a good argument against needing positive emotions to make your life seem worthwhile.  I don’t think helping other people would be rewording without positive emotions.  I think you would have some values but not many.

    My Reply:   I think being in a state of mind that has a positive tone is everything to life.  When you have the attitude of, for example:

    “Even though my life is tough, I am still going to make the best of my life, help others, and carry on in my life.”

    Then that quote denotes a state of mind that has a positive tone.  Sure, you could still have that attitude anyway even without any positive toned experience.  But it would either have to be forced (faked) just like how you would just randomly flail your arms up in the air or you would have to be deluding yourself into thinking you are having a positive toned state of mind when you are really not.  If I am right in saying that it can only be our good emotions (our good moods/feelings) that can be the positive toned experiences, then they would really have to be the only things that matter in life.  There can be nothing more to life than our good moods/feelings.

    It just wouldn’t make any sense to me for someone to view me as childish, spoiled, immature, worthy of contempt, cowardly, weak, etc. for me to then decide to leave this life if I were to lose my good moods/feelings and can never get them back to me within the reasonable time frame of 1-2 years.  Two years would be the absolute max I could go without these good moods/feelings.  However, if there can be an alternate positive toned experience in my life, then that would certainly give me much more hope than just good moods/feelings.  But, remember, and this is of the utmost importance, this positive toned state of mind must meet the human standard.

    But, again, I’m just not sure there is any positive toned experience besides the good moods/feelings.  It could really be the case that people are only fooled and deluded into thinking they are having a positive toned experience without their good moods/feelings when they really aren’t.  Even strength of character, as we’ve clearly established earlier as an emotionless trait, would have to be a positive toned experience.  Otherwise, people would have to be deluding themselves into thinking they are having a positive toned experience when they are really not.

    Lastly, I would call a positive toned state of mind to be the realm of the light.  This is the realm where we are making the best of things, caring for one another, loving, having fun, playing, etc.  Basically, this is the realm where it’s everything to what it means to be human and alive.  But a mechanistic toned state of mind or, even worse, a negative toned state of mind would be the realm of darkness (negative) or a blank realm (mechanistic).  In these two states, your life cannot be anything worth living and you would have to be delusional to think otherwise.  There can be nothing perceived as good and worthwhile while in these two states of mind.  You can only make decisions knowing that your life can get better.

    But, again, such decisions can only be mere tasks at this point and it is only when you reach a state of recovery back into the realm of the light that your life can matter to you, have all the good value, joy, etc., and be worth living to you again.  I will go back to my personal example once more.  Even though I had no positive toned experience whatsoever during my moments of misery, I still remained in this life anyway and got the help I needed.  However, my life was still completely nothing to me at that point.  This is what I mean here when I say that our lives can be nothing without a positive toned state of mind.  I utterly detest the dark and blank realms.  My very being yearns for the realm of the light since this is the realm I need to be in.  There is no way I am going to continue living my life on and on in those dark and blank realms.

    Other Person’s Response:  I guess I don’t have a positive tone to my life, I don’t have enough positive experiences. It turns out I have chronic depression but they changed the name to persistent depression.

    My life is tough, I figure that I’m going to die someday anyway and it’s not bad enough to die. My life was worse when I lived with my grandmother so maybe I have more tolerance now. I have tried to commit suicide before but it didn’t work. The hospital staff said next time I try I could end up in a coma or paralyzed, then I would be stuck with depression and not be able to do anything about it.

    I don’t think I’m making the best of my life but I would probably feel a lot better if I was.  It’s more that people are trying to get better, it is possible.  Depression takes a lot of your motivation to do that away though.

    I think the biggest reason people with depression help other is because they’re lonely.  Also because of the happiness empathy thing.

    People get angry if you want to take your life because it would hurt them and take their positive tone of experience away.  This was confusing to me also, someone in the hospital told me about this.  I think it would be clear that getting mad and saying things like this would only hurt the person more. Most people don’t understand how someone with depression feels at all, maybe they don’t want to. Having empathy of depression would be very painful.

    I hope you find something.  I have good moods and feelings but I still don’t have a positive tone of experience.   I don’t think the people without good emotions are deluded into thinking they are having a positive experience. They have strength of character to wait until they get better.  Dying and death are scary things.

    This is where you start to sound like you are making a religion.  It’s not appropriate to call other people delusional for thinking their life is worth living.  You can’t know what it’s like for other people, you can only know what it’s like for you.  It sounds like you want other people to die, that’s steeping way over the line.  Something that people say is “This too shall pass”.

    I think the problem is that you’ve been talking with people that don’t have or don’t understand depression.  For some reason you think people with depression think they way these non-depressed people tell you they do.

    I also think these people were being invalidating of your emotions and your not having emotions.  Invalidation really bothers me.
    Strength of character is with keeps other people with depression going and trying to get better, not delusions.

    My Reply:   I understand already that it would hurt my family and others around me if I were to take my life.  But in order for me to remain in this life in the first place, then that requires a positive tone of experience for me in order for me to actually perceive it as a good and worthwhile endeavor for me to remain here for my family.  That would even include remaining in this life for my hobbies, nature, etc.  So, I need that positive tone of mind in order for anything to matter to me.  Let me try to just make things clear here.  Do you agree that a positive tone of mind is necessary to give rise to the perception of good value in a person’s life, to make his/her life worth living to him/her, and to make things matter to him/her?

    I think it obviously would.  Without that tone of experience, then continuing to live on and on like this would just be a complete waste of time.  Even if you thought that living like this was the ideal life for you, then even that attitude implies a positive tone of experience.  So, what I am saying here is that a life without a positive tone of mind cannot be anything good, worthwhile, etc. to you no matter how you look at it.  If you somehow don’t agree that a positive toned state of mind is necessary in one’s life, then what we have here is nothing more than an agree to disagree scenario.

    I think it’s necessary just as how a heart is necessary to keep us alive.  Remember, if I am going to have any sort of positive toned state of mind besides my good moods/feelings, then these have to be actual positive tones of experience that meet the human standard and not just a matter of thinking they are when they aren’t.  If you thought that an orange was an apple, then that won’t change the qualities that this orange has and make it an actual apple.  In that same sense, thinking that you are having a positive tone of experience won’t change the quality of the experience you are having and somehow make it an actual positive toned experience in your life.

    However, if there is a definition of value and worth out there that says that you don’t need any positive tone of mind and that it is instead we who give the value and worth to our lives, then I think this definition is blatantly false.  It’s a definition that focuses away from one’s own inner life (experience).  It’s not about what’s “out there.”  It’s not about the lies that society tells you and any external obligations/responsibilities that compel you to focus away from your own inner experience.

    It’s not about what’s on the outside.  It is instead about what’s on the inside.  If you look within yourself and your inner experience truly is mechanistic (dead), then I think it is quite obvious that your life cannot possibly have any real good value, worth, joy, etc. to you.  But if you are truly convinced that your inner experience is one filled with life (positivity) completely independent of any notion of good moods/feelings, then that is just your conviction.  There is no way to actually tell if you are deluding yourself or not through your upbringing, conditioning, etc.

    Other Person’s Response:
      I was just telling you why the people in your life were having that reaction.  I’m not saying it’s the right reaction or that you should live for them.

    I’m not sure if this is a disagreement or not.  When it really comes down to it I feel like everything people do or feel is worthless, pointless and, meaningless because people die anyway.  I don’t think any of this would matter to a dead person.  I don’t put a time limit on my life, it’s like I’m playing the life lottery.  Something could happen, I could die unexpectedly, my life could get better, it could get worse.  Seems like if my life got like it was before I might try to commit suicide again but maybe I would be too scared.  You only get 1 life to live, I don’t want to jump the gun when I don’t know when things could get better.

    I don’t think I’m having a positive tone of experience but it’s tolerable to me right now.  Just because a life is worthless doesn’t mean you should give up on it or through it away.  It’s like how those eco people make good things out of garbage.

    I understand if a person didn’t have positive emotions they would think everything is worthless, they would feel no reward so would have no concept of worth.

    I don’t know how someone with anhedonia could even do hobbies and activities, I couldn’t when I had it, I kept trying but I had no interest in them.  I really don’t know what I would do if I had anhedonia long term.

    Do you think I’m delusional?

    My Reply:  I think that if a life is worthless, then it is just that.  Worthless.  You are trying to make something good and worthwhile out of something that can’t be good or worthwhile to you.  That just doesn’t make any sense to me.  Therefore, without any positive tone of mind, then you can only live your life like a biological machine and nothing more.

    Other Person’s Response:  You did do this though, your life was worthless to you before and now you’re almost fully recovered.  How did you recover without a positive tone of mind?

    Edit: Maybe the problem here is that I don’t think my life is completely worthless.  I don’t have a positive tone most of the time, just some of the time, some of the time my tone of mind is very negative.

    My Reply:   Just because I have chosen to get help during my miserable times does not mean that my life had any good value or worth to me during these moments.  We as human beings have needs.  We need the higher, humanistic qualities in our lives such as love, joy, beauty, etc.  This would even included the higher, humanistic definition of good value and worth.  Being in either a mechanistic toned state of mind or a negative toned state of mind does not meet our higher, humanistic needs as human beings.  That is why I said I absolutely need to be in a positive toned state of mind.  Otherwise, I would completely give up on life.

    If you are going to have perceived love, joy, beauty, happiness, inspiration, good value, and worth in your life, then the true version of those terms can only come about through the positive toned state of mind.  This would make all those terms what they should truly be.  That is, they would become higher, humanistic terms in a positive toned state of mind.  But if you were to be in a mechanistic state of mind, then those terms would no longer have that higher, humanistic quality that we as human beings need in our lives.  They would now be nothing more than mechanistic qualities in our lives.

    Other Person’s Response: 
    I feel like there’s this disconnect between the present and future that making you not understand what I’m saying.  You felt like your life was worthless> you didn’t commit suicide > now your life is not worthless. You turned your worthless life through treatment into a life that’s worth something to you.  You had no positive tone> you didn’t commit suicide > now you have positive tone.

    If I do it like math

    No positive tone + treatment = possible positive tone

    No positive tone + suicide = no positive tone.

    What you keep saying is also very contradictory.  You keep saying “a life with no positive tone is worthless and can’t be changed” Then in reality you did change your worthless life so it makes no sense.

    Do you mean people have told you learn to live with no positive tone?  I don’t know why someone would say that since you ended up not having to live with it.

    My Reply:   I guess you could say that my life really did have a positive toned state of mind during my times of misery.  However, it would have been so minuscule that I could not detect it.  Since I could not detect it, then that is why I am reporting that I had no positive toned state of mind during those miserable moments.

    Other Person’s Response:   I understand that people need positive emotions.  I don’t think anyone would tell you to learn to live with out them, maybe that’s why this seems strange to me.  From talking to you I think that if you didn’t have good emotions everything would be worthless or worse then worthless, a burden.

    “However, let’s assume for a moment that I really did perceive real good value and worth in my life during that time since I got the help I needed and one might assume that this has real good value and worth to me.  This would be a completely different definition of good value and worth.

    It is a definition that is completely dead and nothing.”

    What gave it the worth if it was dead and nothing?  You might be answering your own questions.

    My Reply:  Like I said earlier, I could have had a positive toned state of mind during my moments of misery.  But it would have been so minuscule that I could not detect it.  It was something so small, but sufficient to allow me to get the help I needed.

    Other Person’s Response:   I think most people with depression must have that small amount of positive tone then.  Sometimes I have episodes where I think I always feel really down, then, when I feel a little bit better I wonder why I was thinking that.  I also used to think I was constantly suicidal until my therapist had me track it on a mood diary.  Depression is very tricky, it make you think things are always bad and wont get better, that’s the real delusion.

    I’m happy you got the help!  What you went through was awful, I hope you don’t have something like that again.

    My Reply:   Thank you.  Now, I am going to explain my own theory on positive toned states of mind.  They could actually be good moods/feelings.  When a depressed person gets help, then he/she could be experiencing a good mood/feeling, but on such a small scale that he/she cannot detect it.  This would have to mean that the perceptual quality of good value and worth in this depressed person’s life would have to be minuscule as well.  But when the depressed person fully recovers and is in a normal, healthy state of well being, then that is a positive toned state of mind on a much higher level.  The perceptual quality of good value/worth in this person’s life would now be at its optimal level.

    If he/she were to then feel very excited, joyful, or even go on blissful psychedelic trips, then this would offer him/her the greatest perceptual quality of good value/worth.  However, if a positive toned state of mind has nothing to do with good moods/feelings, then by finding a way to enhance it through either drugs or technology, then this would enhance the perceptual quality of good value/worth for somebody who has very little of it despite trying his/her best to think positive, do what he/she can in his/her life, and trying to make the best of things.

    Other Person’s Response:
      Lol, I used to do psychedelic drugs.  Some people have really bad trips somehow.  I think this sounds good.

    My Reply:  I would like to say one last thing here.  The perceptual quality of good value/worth in my life during my miserable states is nowhere near sufficient to put me in a position where I would live the entirety of my life for my family and for my hobbies.  Like I said, if I could not recover from this miserable state or an anhedonic state that rendered this perceptual quality minute, then the reasonable time frame would be 1-2 years.  If I don’t have this perceptual quality at its sufficient level after 2 years max, then my decision is firm and final.  I would end my life and it doesn’t matter what others say or feel.

    Other Person’s Response:  *sigh* , okay. You should probably keep a mood diary if something like this happens to make sure your depression’s not tricking you.  Yeah, that’s what I hear a lot “quality of life”.

    My Reply:  Understood.  But I don’t think you really realize what I’ve been through if you are displaying such a nonchalant tone.  My life was the worst possible hell completely devoid of any perceptual quality of good value/worth.  I am even saying this while in a state of full recovery.  So I know it is not any depression fooling me.  If there was somehow some perceptual quality of good value/worth in my life during those miserable traumatic events, then, like I said before, it would have to be at such a minute level that I could not detect it.

    Other Person’s Response:  Sorry, I forgot about the first part. I understand how bad you felt. (I think)  The sigh is because I’m disappointed you’re still putting a time limit on your life. I’m not very good at talking with people too. I guess I’m not sure what you mean by nonchalant.

    My Reply:
      There has to be a time limit set.  I will give you an example.  If a person was standing in line and it took way too long, then he/she would just leave.  It all depends on this person’s time limit set that would determine when he/she would decide to leave.  Another example would be that, if a person was at a dead party waiting for it to start, then even though it could start anytime, this person would still leave that party if nothing happens within the time frame that this individual has set.

    Other Person’s Response:
      These people could change their mind and go back later so these are bad examples.

    My Reply:  But can you at least see my point?  If a person works hard to obtain a certain goal, then he/she can do so for quite some time providing this person has the optimal perceptual quality of good value and worth in his/her life to keep him/her going.  As long as he/she has this optimal perceptual quality, then I don’t think any time limit would be set by this individual.  He/she would just keep at it no matter how long it takes until, one day, he/she obtains his/her goal.

    But for someone who has very little to none of this perceptual quality of good value and worth in his/her life, then such an individual would give up soon since he/she does not have the optimal perceptual quality of good value/worth to keep him/her going.  That is the point I am trying to make here.  If I were to have chronic depression or anhedonia which rendered this perceptual quality at a minute level, then I would find myself giving up on life very soon.  Like I said, the reasonable time frame would be 1-2 years.

    Other Person’s Response: 
    I see your point now.  I think your own death is the biggest decision you can make in your life.  You don’t even want to keep a record of how you feel for the last 1-2 years.  Now it’s changed to 1-2 years instead of 2.

    My Reply:  I would like to add that it is just our nature as human beings to give up on things when things don’t work out after a certain time frame.  It is just a part of life and being human.  That all goes back to those examples I made.  You said they were bad examples.  But imagine good examples.  Furthermore, we have human needs as I’ve mentioned before.  We are social animals and need to socialize, we need food to eat, we need to sleep, etc.  We also need to have the higher, humanistic qualities in our lives.  That is, we need to be in that positive toned state of mind.  This positive toned state of mind is obviously a dire human need of mine.  I am not going to live very long without it.  I would give up if I cannot regain it within that reasonable time frame.

    Other Person’s Response: 
      I was saying because you said “I would like to add that it is just our nature as human beings to give up on things when things don’t work out after a certain time frame.”  that you are not a thing and your life is not a thing.  Then I was thinking that a person is the same thing as their life because without a life that person would not exist.  I don’t think a persons life could ever be completely worthless to them because that’s all that person has.  Usually people don’t choose death because their life is worthless, they do it to escape pain.

    Last time you had depression and anhedonia it was extreme. If you get it again it might be different and it might not be as extreme so you might be able to last longer then 2 years.  I’m thinking you also might still have depression because this seems like suicidal ideation to me.

    My Reply:
      It makes perfect sense to me, at least, for a person to end his/her life because it is either completely worthless or has very little worth.  It would be like a situation where a person goes to a party and this is the only part he/she can have.  If he/she decides to leave, he/she can never come back.  I bet this person would still leave anyway if it was a party that was either completely worthless to him/her or had very little worth.

    Other Person’s Response:  Good!  I can’t agree with you about putting a limit on your life,  I’m not sure what to say anymore.

    My Reply:   It would be far worse than being at a party that is worthless.  If I were living my life in a state of complete misery which would be utter hell for me, then I would be that much more compelled to leave this life within that reasonable time frame mentioned.  Lastly, I would like to say a few more things.  It is very well possible that, if a person is very miserable and chooses to get help and make the best of life anyway, that he/she is not actually experiencing any positive toned state of mind.  We had a discussion earlier in regards to how you thought such a thing could not be possible.  But I think it could be possible and I will explain why.

    If a sentient android were built, then it could still do tasks, make the best of its life, etc. even without any positive toned experience.  It would just do whatever its programming is.  Same thing with a mere robot.  As you can see here, you do not need positive and negative toned experiences (states of mind) in order to do things in your life, make choices, etc.  This would mean that even a person who felt nothing but good and decided to end his/her life since he/she thought that his/her life was not good/worth living wouldn’t actually have any negative toned experience that drove him/her to suicide.

    Rather, it was his/her “programming” (i.e. his/her conditioning, natural wiring, upbringing, morals, etc.).  If he/she has reported to someone before his/her act of suicide that he/she did indeed had a very negative toned experience that drove him/her to suicide, then even a programmed android or robot can still say the same thing.  Again, it would still be this person’s “programming” convincing him/her that he/she is having a negative toned experience when he/she really isn’t.  But if he/she really did truly have a negative toned experience, then I just think that negative and positive toned states have to be bad moods/feelings and good moods/feelings.  So, she would have to be experiencing a bad feeling despite his/her experience of good feelings.

    When we are talking about positive and negative toned states of mind, then isn’t that the very definition of positive and negative emotions?  I’m just not seeing here how you can have a positive and negative toned experience without any emotions whatsoever.  If this is the case, then I would have been right all along that one’s good moods/feelings are the positive toned states of mind.  From there, I said that positive toned states of mind give rise to the perceptual quality of good value and worth in our lives.  So, I think this is right as well.

    I just don’t see it any other way.  I just don’t see how one’s life can be good/worth living to him/her without his/her good moods/feelings.  If anyone thinks otherwise, then they would have to be nothing but biological machines.  I am not sure we would even consider someone like that to even be a human being.   If a person has no need for a positive toned state of mind, then I just don’t see them as actual human beings since, to me, this positive toned state of mind is the very higher, humanistic quality we need in our lives to make us something more than mere biological machines.

    Other Person’s Response:  I was thinking positive tone state of mind was something a little different, like the average amount of positive emotions because people can’t always feel positive emotions.  Right now I feel neutral, it’s a positive neutral because I was feeling extremely negative emotions last night.   It must be a more positive neutral then anhedonia because I still have interest and curiosity.  I guess I don’t think it’s possible for a person to be in a state of complete and total misery for very long.  I think it’s very important to keep a log of your moods to make sure.  In my experience my brain tells me that I’ve been in a negative state for longer then I have or it could be my negative mood telling me that.  Moods trick people because the person feels like something is true when it might not be logically true.

    If a person felt nothing but positive moods they wouldn’t know because they wouldn’t have negative moods to be able to tell a contrast with.

    I think some people are born with out positive moods or any moods, they don’t have memories of positive moods to miss.  I think they are disabled in a way, they end up needing help to live, they don’t think their life is worthless.  I don’t know much about them, I’ve just heard of that before. I’m not sure what to say about them being a machine, seems like a judgement to me.

    My Reply:   A positive toned state of mind being a mere concept as how you’ve defined it does not get around my definition of having good value and worth perceived in your life because, like I said before, it requires an actual positive emotion in order to generate the perceptual quality of good value/worth in your life.  This would be no different than if there were a blind person who could see certain moments and blind other moments who redefined sight to mean the average amount of moments he/she could see.  Having this definition of sight would not actually allow him/her to see during his/her moments of blindness.

    In regards to me committing suicide within the reasonable time frame mentioned if I could not recover my positive toned state of mind, I am being denied the very thing that gives my life the higher, humanistic qualities.  I would be denied the very state of mind of a human being and rendered into the state of that of a mere biological machine.  If anyone were to expect me to drag my life on and on like this, then that would be cruel and inconsiderate of me and my human needs.  If someone else were in my situation, I would let them commit suicide.  It doesn’t matter how much grief it would cause me.  It would be cruel/inconsiderate of me to just have them drag their lives on if nothing has worked for them within the reasonable time frame.

    Other Person’s Response:  Sociopaths can have a positive toned state of mind, they don’t have empathy to make them feel negative about what they’re doing.  People can’t have empathy without emotions but can have emotions without empathy.  Narcissists can feel love but only for themselves so they have no empathy.  These types of people have a positive toned state of mind but no values. Having a positive toned state of mind must not help a person to have values, empathy does.

    My Reply:   If a sociopath/narcissist could only love his/her self and nothing else, then I would agree that he/she would be missing out on the perceptual quality of good value/worth in other things in life.  But it doesn’t matter that this person didn’t have value towards other things because it would still only be our positive toned states that can give our lives the perceptual quality of good value/worth.  So, let’s pretend that you were in a completely mechanistic state, you could have values in regards to a numerous amount of things in your life and you can definitely think that so many things in your life have value to you.  But you would not be able to actually perceive any of that good value/worth in your life without the positive toned state.

    I will give one last example.  If a person were in a mechanistic state where he/she had no positive toned state of mind, but could actually feel horrible about the sinister deeds he/she has committed, then that would give him/her the perceptual quality of bad value in his/her life.  But who wants to live a bad or mechanistic life that has no good value?  That is why you need the positive toned state since this is the state that, not only gives you the perceptual quality of real good value/worth in your life, but it is also the light to your life.  Let me give you an analogy.

    If there were a sociopath in the realm of the light (the positive toned state) who could not feel bad (be in a negative toned state) in regards to his/her sinister deeds while another person was in the realm of complete darkness who could feel bad in regards to any sinister deeds he/she has committed, then would you rather be the sociopath or the person in the realm of the darkness?  Would you rather have empathy or not?  Remember, and this is a very important point, the person in the darkness is unable to perceive any good value/worth whatsoever in his/her life.  He/she is in complete darkness, misery, and can only perceive bad value in regards to certain things and situations.

    Other Person’s Response:  Yes, I understand why the person would rather be a sociopath.  I also understand why a person would want to commit suicide, I have wanted to many times before.

    My Reply:   I, personally, would choose to be that sociopath because I am fed up with all of the bullshit of society.  They expect me to drag my life on and on serving others, making the best of my life, etc. when my life is nothing but completely dead to me, empty to me, and has nothing but the worst possible value to me.  It is my light-filled state of mind that matters to me.  This is what is so precious to me.  Not about what anyone else says to me and what their judgments are of me.  Sure, others could perceive the good value/worth in me and see me as something more than a mere biological machine through their positive toned states of mind (good emotions).  But, in reality, I would be completely dead on the inside.  My state of being would be nothing more than something mechanistic and even worse.

    I detest the mindsets of people who think I don’t need a positive toned state of mind and to just carry on with my life anyway.  These people cannot begin to comprehend my higher, humanistic need to be in that positive toned state of mind.  So, my mindset would be how a true human being would think since human beings have a need for higher, humanistic qualities in their lives (i.e. that positive toned state of mind) while these other people have the mindset of machines since they see no need for it.  These people would be in their higher, humanistic state (their positive toned states of mind).  But they would have the mindset of machines and that makes me angry since they, as mechanical thinkers, cannot comprehend my humanistic way of thinking.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Matt.
    #160288
    PearceHawk
    Participant

    Matt,

    Thank you for your time in posting your thoughts. I actually did read it all and find it interesting to say the least. Enjoy reading things like this as it invites me to look deeper into my own thoughts. I hope that you are patient in my taking a little time to respond for 2 reasons: (1) there is much here for me to digest and respond to and I don’t (usually) like to give some knee jerk reaction and (2) I am having surgery today so I will not be able to respond right away or in a coherent manner. Plus I have a couple of questions I have about a couple of things I already read. They are questions I have where the jury is still out so I am going to ask for clarification with the hope that it will help me come a little closer to what I am looking for.

    Thank you again. I’m looking forward to talking with you. I’m off to surgery now…Take care.

    Pearce

    #160336
    Matt
    Participant

    Thank you.  I will now give you one last response/reply that I forgot to add into that packet:

    Other Person’s Response: You just don’t need good moods/feelings to give your life good value/worth. I think they are trivial things.

    My Reply: I really do need them for all of the reasons I have explained in this packet. I am not the image of a strong and noble warrior who endures much misery since said life to me is nothing more than a crippled machine pushing forward in life. I am instead like a beautiful, wild, and exotic healthy plant out in the wild. This plant needs the sunshine, nutrients, and water in order to thrive. I need my good moods/feelings in order for me to be a divine and beautiful plant that grows and thrives. Without them, then I am nothing more than a withered plant with no more good value, worth, joy, or beauty perceived in my life anymore.

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