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  • July 30, 2017 at 6:12 pm #161144
    Matt
    Participant

    You might have noticed that I have been making nothing but philosophical hedonistic topics.  This is because I am trying to come up with the perfect explanation that conveys my worldview.  I have struggled with depression/misery in my life and it has led me to this worldview.  It is not just some hedonistic worldview.  There is something very distinct about it and I am just trying to find a way to convey this.  I wish to convey my worldview in such a way that others finally understand me and my views rather than scoffing at me, name calling me, judging me, etc.  So, with all of this being said, I do believe I have finally come up with the perfect explanation that conveys my worldview.  However, I will need to present it in a separate post here since this notice is very important and other people might overlook/ignore it if I were to present a whole bunch of information here.

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Matt.
    July 31, 2017 at 4:26 am #161220
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Matt:

    I do not click links presented here and so, I did not read about your worldview so far. If you would like to present your worldview on this thread in a simple, clear, straightforward language, please do. If you do, I will respond respectfully.

    anita

     

    July 31, 2017 at 6:01 am #161242
    Matt
    Participant

    Let me give you a logical argument that sums up my views:

    1.)  Having beauty, love, joy, good value, and worth in our lives is the most important thing to us as human beings.  They are the higher, humanistic qualities we need in our lives.

    2.)  Our judgments do not dictate reality.  For example, if we judged a person as ugly who had a daunting appearance, then that does not make the person ugly on the inside.  For all we know, this could truly be a beautiful person on the inside.  It is, therefore, what’s on the inside that counts and not what’s on the outside.

    3.)  Consciousness (our experience) is the most important and precious thing.  Without it, then we would either be dead or unconscious.  There are many mysterious about consciousness that we still have yet to figure out.

    Therefore,

    Conclusion:  Our value judgments do not dictate what type of experience we have in our lives (i.e. joyful, beautiful, horrible, etc.).  So, it is not our judgments that are important here.  Rather, it is what’s on the inside that truly matters (our conscious experience).  It is, therefore, the type of experience we have that determines whether it truly is a beautiful or horrible experience for us or not just as how it’s what type of person he/she truly is on the inside that determines who he/she really is.  People who make value judgments might endure miserable moods/feelings and claim that they are beautiful experiences since they allow us to create gothic works of art and whatnot, but these miserable moods would only be beautiful from a purely conceptual (abstract) point of view.

    I describe later on in my packet the idea of abstract values that are inherent qualities within certain situations or things.  I will just give another example here.  It is a wrong thing from our human standard of morals and values to commit a crime such as stealing or raping.  A criminal who thinks this is right would be going by his/her standard of right and wrong that does not meet our human standard.  So, these crimes would be horrible and wrong from a purely conceptual point of view since they are abstract values that these crimes would inherently hold, according to our human standard.

    But then there are those types of values which are inherent qualities in our own experiences.  In order for any abstract value to be perceived as value to us, then that requires an experience that inherently possesses that value.  For example, if there were a certain situation that was beautiful, then we would have to experience our good moods/feelings which are literally beautiful experiences in order to perceive said situation as being beautiful to us.  If we did not have our good moods/feelings at all and we simply judged the situation as being beautiful to us, then it cannot be perceived as being beautiful to us.  It would not be a human standard of perceptual beauty.

    Rather, it would be the individual’s personal definition of perceived beauty that does not meet the human standard just as how the criminal’s definition does not either.  If there was a dangerous situation that could kill us, then that situation would inherently hold bad value.  But the only way we could perceive the fearful bad value this situation has would be if this situation evoked a panic response within us which would be a bad mood/feeling.  Again, bad moods/feelings possess the inherent quality of being a bad experience.  Therefore, they are what allow us to perceive bad value that situations hold in our lives.

    So, going back to my example with the person in a miserable mood who judged them to be beautiful, they would be beautiful from an abstract point of view since he/she is making use of them to help others and create gothic works of art.  But he/she would not be able to perceive this beautiful abstract value without his/her good moods/feelings.  Lastly, many people would object to my conclusion here.  But, referring to premise 3, my conclusion could still be possible because there are still many mysterious about consciousness and the brain that we have not yet discovered.

    July 31, 2017 at 7:53 am #161256
    Peter
    Participant

    You might enjoy the User Illusion by Tor Nørretranders

     

    The ego starts off thinking that it is conscious of everything and conscious of everything in charge. Yet consciousness is incredibly limited, 8 to 16 bits per second, and our experience of it tends to be linear – cause and effect.

    In comparison, the unconscious is capable of taking in millions of bits of information a second. Just think about how my information is required for your body to function. If you had to be conscious of it all (and control it) you would die.

    All this implies that we know more then we know, see more then we see, hear more then we hear, taste more then we taste, smell more then we smell.  We just aren’t conscious of it, so more often then not the ego, attachment to fear and desire, fills in the gaps and creates illusion. (the mind literally fills in the gap of what it expects to see and hear.)

    Judgments do play a role in our lives and are not bad or good. This experience hurt me, this experience I liked, this one I didn’t.  Judgments as information and when skilled without attachment.  But then we tend to make judgments about people in involved in such experience. This person is bad, this one ugly, I’m bad, I’m ugly.  Judgments influenced by physiological factors most of which are unconscious. The experience of the judgment, as information, opening the door to becoming more conscious. Where as the experience of judgment with attachment to desire, fear and threat to self, becomes reactionary and to often remains unconscious.

     

    Here is a riddle for you: As above so below… as below so above

    July 31, 2017 at 8:27 am #161270
    Matt
    Participant

    Are you saying that my good moods/feelings do not possess an inherent quality of beauty and that my unconscious is simply making a judgment and reacting to them in such a way as though they were literally beautiful experiences for me?  Do you mean to also say that, during my absolute worst miserable moments in my life, that these experiences do not possess a quality to them that is inherently horrible?  But let’s pretend that I were to develop some sort of new outlook on life that allowed me to be tough, content, and enduring of these miserable experiences, I don’t think it is simply a change in values/mindset going on here.  I think the experience itself would have truly changed for me and that I would have a whole new experience in my life.  Therefore, I still think our experiences possess inherent qualities that make them beautiful and horrible.  It’s just a matter of these experiences changing for you which allows you to have a whole new outlook on life.  Although, I am still convinced that good moods/feelings will always possess the inherent quality of beauty and yielding of the perceptual experience of good value/worth in my life.  This would have to mean that a person who becomes tough and enduring of misery would only be having a new perception that allows him/her to endure.  But that perception is not of any real happiness, good value, or worth in his/her life.  The fact is, he/she is still missing his/her experience of good moods/feelings to give his/her life a real perceptual experience of good value, worth, and happiness.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Matt.
    July 31, 2017 at 11:23 am #161342
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Matt:

    Thank you for posting your worldview. I hope others can understand it. Unfortunately, after reading your two posts, I am unable to understand your message. I did not understand a single sentence.

    anita

    July 31, 2017 at 1:04 pm #161382
    Matt
    Participant

    Here, let me offer a more clear explanation:

    Hypothesis/Philosophy:  Our good moods/feelings (which I define as the states of well being induced by the various feel-good neurotransmitters/chemicals in the brain) are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality (experience) of good value, worth, joy, beauty, love, inspiration, and happiness.  A person cannot become perceptually aware of these qualities without his/her good moods/feelings since, again, our good moods/feelings are the perceptual awareness of these qualities.

    Brief Explanation:  You see, I do not have these happy chemicals at all during my moments of traumatic induced misery/despair. Nothing I do can produce even the smallest amount of these happy chemicals. This is because my brain is in a completely traumatized state and, thus, all these chemicals are turned off. It is only once I reach a state of full recovery that these chemicals get turned back on, restoring my perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, and beauty back into my life again. That is where my whole theory/philosophy was getting at. I was saying that it can only be the good moods/feelings (the happy chemicals) that can give our lives the perceptual quality of good value/worth. But many people out there say you don’t need these happy chemicals and that there are other ways to perceive your life as having good value/worth and happiness to you anyway. Like I said, I disagree with this perceptual standard of good value/worth and happiness. I think it is fake and doesn’t exist.

    Thinking and believing that you can see the good value/worth in your life is not the same thing as actually seeing it just as how a blind person thinking and believing he/she can see is not the same thing as actual sight.  Everything in my life is completely dead, miserable, the worst hell, and insignificant in these miserable states.  I do not agree that this is simply a matter of value judgment on my part judging this miserable life.  I truly think it is the feel-good chemicals being restored and my misery recovering that restores my perceptual experience of good value, worth, and happiness in my life.  There are, for example, people who have taken antidepressants which have completely wiped out these chemicals.  They report that they are in a completely blank state as though a hard drive has been completely wiped clean.  From there, friends, family, and others would just give the recommendation to this person that he/she can still perceive good value/worth in his/her life through making the best of things anyway.  I disagree with this.  I think it is all lie and that we truly need our good moods/feelings.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Matt.
    July 31, 2017 at 2:39 pm #161404
    PearceHawk
    Participant

    Matt,

    I too Agree with Anita’s most recent response. The entire post, and previous ones of this nature are very incoherent to me. In it’s current form the syntax, for me anyway, is not coherent enough for me to Make any sense of it. I think that if I was to respond to your post the possibility of misunderstanding what it is your asking is too great. When talking with someone I prefer to be on the same side of the same page.

    Pearce

    July 31, 2017 at 2:48 pm #161408
    Matt
    Participant

    Could you at least point out what you found incoherent about my recent post I’ve made?  I thought I made my point quite clear in my recent post.  I can understand how my previous posts were long winded and confusing.  But I just don’t understand how my recent post can possibly be incoherent to you.

    July 31, 2017 at 6:07 pm #161476
    Peter
    Participant

    Basically what I was saying was that when it comes to measuring experiences most people suck. A solution is to stop measuring. That won’t change what happened but it can change the attachment we have to the memory of what happened (it is the memory that we are left to deal with and what we are usually measuring which perpetuates the feelings or you might say the chemical stimulus that creates those feeling.)

    What I think your saying is that the feelings we have about our experiences are the result of chemical interactions. Without the ability to produce the chemicals needed to experience joy or happiness one can only experience sadness… And in your view the only thing that can give value to ones life are the “feel-good neurotransmitters/chemicals in the brain”

    Are you saying that people who suffer have no value or just can not experience value? And that only positive experience of value creates consciousness?

    That is quite a leap and perhaps a misunderstanding of the words value, meaning, and quality and maybe unskillful measuring? Have you read Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. the book as a lot to say about value, quality and how we measure it.

    Perhaps we are at the mercy of the chemicals of the brain – as above so below/fate. Perhaps the stories we tell ourselves about our experiences can influence the chemicals of the brain – as below so above/choice. What came first the negative thoughts about a experience or the chemical reactions? Did the experience influenza the chemicals which influence the thoughts or do thoughts influence the chemicals…(and the experience) both? is their a tipping point?

    As to the question of what gives a life experience value… the stories we like the most are the ones where a negative experience leads to a transformation of becoming.

    I would even argue that consciousness is a result of the tension we experience when confronted with the problem of opposites.

    (as most  cultures beginning stories indicate – for example the tension of having knowledge of good and evil but not the discernment of knowing what is good or evil. the tension creating consciousness and with that a exit from the “bliss” of remaining unconscious. Or if you don’t like religious references, a baby takes a crap and it feels good, then its care taker makes a face of disgust when cleaning it up. What was experienced as good (objective as in the experience happened and felt like in the moment ) is, as influenced from above, also experienced as something else (subjective what we think and feel about the experience now memory as something else)… maybe even bad. Was it good or was it bad?)

    I’m sorry your life so far has been crap. Nothing I could say can change that. Still you have come to a Buddhist forum and perhaps a part of you is looking for some other answers… or questions?

     

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Peter.
    July 31, 2017 at 6:11 pm #161478
    Sun
    Participant

    Syntactically speaking, this has been a little hard to comprehend, but I think the subject matter you’re presenting might be hard to understand in and of itself. That being said, you are correct: having “the happy chemicals” turned on and off will have an impact on whether or not you leave a rut; however, I think you are responsible for its duration.

    You go to the gym, you’re happy. You have sex, you’re happy. You talk with friends that admire you, you’re happy. The only problem is to actually have these experiences, you need to unfog your lenses and see life for what it is. Living in the past, staying home all day, refusing to better yourself will be a sure path to keeping those “happy chemicals” turned off forever.

    July 31, 2017 at 8:29 pm #161486
    Matt
    Participant

    Thanks for responding back to me.  Now, when I say that these good moods/feelings sustain this perceptual quality of good value/worth in our lives, this perceptual quality is not a thought/outlook at all. As I said before, thoughts/outlooks alone do not give us this perceptual quality in our lives. This means that our good moods/feelings do not have some sort of mind control effect where they force us to perceive through our thinking that our lives have good value/worth to us. Rather, the good moods/feelings themselves are an actual awareness of good value/worth in our lives. Like I said earlier, I metaphorically described it as some sort of divine transcended awareness.

    August 1, 2017 at 6:20 am #161526
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Matt:

    I will be trying to understand your message by paraphrasing it best I can: people make value judgments about reality, good or bad, enjoyable or miserable, beautiful or ugly based on how we perceive reality, involving chemicals in our brains.

    We cannot feel good, joy, beauty unless we have the chemicals making these feelings, these subjective experiences, possible.  Many people believe that one is able to make such value judgments without the corresponding feelings, but you disagree.

    Did I understand correctly? I am wondering, the title of your thread is “important notice to everyone”- you wrote notice- meaning you are trying to grab the attention of the reader, you have something important to state to the reader.

    Can you in a sentence or two, in a straightforward way, state your message?

    anita

    August 1, 2017 at 7:00 am #161532
    RamoneJoseph
    Participant

    Matt,

    I also found it difficult to completely grasp what you’re trying to say because your method of writing is full of syntactical convolution.  That being said I believe that your basic premise is that only “good” experiences present value to us as humans since they are the only experiences that stimulate our brains physiology.  That would be an error in thinking though because we are also stimulated by “bad” experiences.  To constantly be stimulated in the realm of “good” experiences would be nearly impossible, and to attempt to do so would deny a person complete human fulfillment by robbing them of the full spectrum and learning from “bad” experiences.

    Ramone

    August 1, 2017 at 1:18 pm #161609
    Matt
    Participant

    Alright, let me make a logical argument that should make things perfectly clear to you now:

    1.) Happiness can only be an experience induced by the feel-good neurotransmitters/chemicals in the brain. This is a scientific fact. If you lose all of these chemicals and nothing you do can induce these chemical induced feel-good states, then you cannot experience happiness. So, happiness can only be a good mood/feeling induced by the feel-good chemicals/neurotransmitters. Good moods/feelings can only be happiness.

    2.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a liking experience, inspiration, love, enjoyment, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a positive tone. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a positive experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a negative toned experience can be of good value/worth to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a positive toned state here despite that negative toned experience.

    3.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a negative tone. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a negative experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a positive toned experience can be of bad value to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a negative toned state here despite that positive toned experience.

    4.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a neutral (mechanistic) tone. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a neutral toned experience can be of good value/worth to you or bad value to you, then this still presupposes the experience of a positive or negative toned state here despite that neutral toned experience.

    5.) The profoundness and intensity of these positive toned, negative toned, and neutral toned states dictate the level of perceived value. If you were in a very positive toned state of mind, then you would be perceiving much good value/worth in your life. If you were in a very negative toned state of mind, then you would be perceiving much bad value in your life. Likewise, if you were in a very neutral state, then you would be perceiving much neutral value in your life.

    6.) Positive toned states of mind can only be happiness. Negative toned states can only be unhappiness. Neutral toned states can only be neither happiness nor unhappiness. It is, therefore, only our good moods/feelings which can be the positive toned (happy) states of mind, our bad moods/feelings which can be the negative toned (unhappy) states of mind, and neither good nor bad moods/feelings being neither the positive or negative toned (neither happy nor unhappy) states of mind.

    Therefore,

    Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, love, liking, enjoyment, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives the perceptual quality of bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives no perceptual value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery. Perceiving good value/worth in your life presupposes a happy experience. It is the very definition of happiness and all other definitions of a life that is good and worthwhile to you are fake and delusional. They don’t give a person’s life any real perceptual quality of those positive terms.

    People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

    You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person’s life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no positive quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of good value/worth perceived in their lives. Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person’s life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

    As I said before, when I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. I have no positive emotional response in me whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don’t agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. I also don’t agree that any other definition of a good mood/feeling exists either since I think that it is only our feel good chemical/neurotransmitter states which are the good moods/feelings. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living without my good moods/feelings.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Matt.
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