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PeterParticipant
Gautama sits under the tree and achieves enlightenment and in that moment is given a choice to remain in nirvana or return (as all hero’s must) to teach what cannot be taught. Gautama knew that most would relate to the teachings as if they were the destination mistaking the map for the territory. (even as all of the teachings warn not to do that)
I’ve often thought that such a paradox would be enough to boot one right out of nirvana and into frustration. Still the Buddha agrees to return and teach as a enlightened one and I wonder if this is why he laughs.I’ve also wondered about all those Zen stories where the Buddha teaches and someone hearing becomes immediately enlightened in that moment. I imagen this now enlightened person looking into the Buddha eyes to mark the moment – maybe the Buddha gives him a wink or some other form of recognition… but then the Buddha winks at everyone. I imagen this now enlightened person waking out of the temple, perhaps in a state of contentment, maybe even bliss and then stepping in dog poop. I wonder if this person remains enlightened? I wonder if this is why the Buddha is so often depicted as laughing.
âBefore one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.â Dogen
PeterParticipantCanary
I believe this is what I am doing! The person that hurt me explicitly stated that they felt no remorse for their actions, so I think I am holding onto that because I am hoping that they can feel guilty for their actions⌠and that is the reason I feel so much anger/sadness.
Their is another the Art of Forgiveness: The decision to tell the person you are working on forgiving that they are forgiven as thier is a possibility they will react negatively – saying things like I don’t need your forgiveness, I didn’t do any thing wrong, what are you accusing me off – ‘sticking a finger’ into the wound your working on healing.
My feelings are that the practice of forgiveness is very personal and about the practitioner. It is a practice that helps the wounded heal. There is of course a practice of asking forgiveness and all that that entails however the two practices are not the same thing. Then their is the whole learning to Forgive oneself process… Oh how we make our lives difficult
Be kind to yourself as you work your way through your past. As mentioned I still fall for the trap of hanging on to my hurt and anger, my victimization, thinking that by doing so I am punishing the one that hurt me. If I take a breath I usually notice and let it go, even have a laugh at myself.
January 27, 2022 at 8:12 am in reply to: Is there anyone kind enough to give me some advice? #391895PeterParticipantAs a person that tends to live in my head, I get it Greg
The tendency to project my insecurities in to silences between encounters with others… what if they think this or that about me, what if, what if…Being able to communicate clearly and establishing healthy boundaries can help. Sadly most of us haven’t been taught how to commutate skillfully in such situations. (just knowing what ones boundaries, making them conscious, is not a easy task.)
Under similar circumstances a philosopher Tom Morris gave me the following advice or rule. The rule of Charity. The rule of Charity states that if you experience a event and thier are multiple possible explanations and you have no way of determining which is the correct explanations or you have decide not to take the time to determine which is the correct explanation then choose the better explanation.
It is possible that this woman is interested in you, enjoys making new acquittances, likes communicating with people from around the world, pities you, is setting you up for some scam, is a murder looking for the next victim… đ
So many what if’s!You could ask her about each of those possibilities to determine which is true..  or you could choose to pick the most kindest explanation which in this case may be she finds you interesting.
When your not engaged with your insecurities your projecting on the interaction you seem to be your enjoying the interactions so why can’t that be enough in the present moment? Tomorrow will bring what tomorrow will bring.
As for the question ‘Why do you find it easier to engage with those farther away and or online (virtually) and not closer at hand in the real world… A problem many today have… i
Asking myself that question I might wonder if I find it easier. That a virtual connection that doesn’t work out wont hurt as much as a connection where I actually interacted with the person in the ‘real’ world doesn’t. Especially if I might run into them from time to time. But that’s mePeterParticipantHi Canary
My experience of forgiveness is that it isn’t something we do once and then as if by magic all the hurt memory’s and feelings are gone. Forgiveness is a skill and process that requires practice – perhaps better to say Forgiveness is a practice like… meditation. If you ever tried meditation you might have notice that some attempts go better then others and that ok, there will always be more opportunities to practice đ
I found it helpful to note that forgiveness does not mean a person is no longer responsible or accountable for thier actions. It means we can hold them accountable without having to attach to our anger and hurt. We experience hurt and anger vice ‘I am’ hurt…
Forgiveness is more of practice of “forgetting” as in not dwelling on the memory. When we notice we are dwelling we practice acknowledging the feelings and letting them go/flow.
Forgiveness is a practice of forgoing as in letting go the desire to ‘hurt back’ and or the imagining of ‘if only’, a attempt to change the past and force it to comply to your will your control (almost always ego) . The next time you are experiencing these painful memories and emotions ask yourself if a part of you could be doing so with the subconscious hope that by holding on to your pain you are punishing the one you hurt? (I can tell you that does not work but I still fall for that trap)It might also be helpful to remind yourself that when you find yourself in the moments when the memory arise that it is the memory that is recreating the emotions, not the specific event that happened in the specific space and time. And memory my friend is a trickster. When a experience moves to memory it is no longer the experience as it was, as we have likely projected a lot of our shadow onto it.
I agree with Anita that quality therapy could help you identify your ‘old feelings’. These feelings will likely still arise from time to time, but with help, the amount of time hold onto them will lesson until the day you will just notice – hello old friends, I see you, I do not wish to dwell today. I have memories I am not my memories, I have emotions, I am not my emotions…. Oh look I see what in the present has triggered the memory… I also see that this present is not that experience in the past… I have taken what I have learned from the past and better able to deal with what is happening now…
January 26, 2022 at 12:59 pm in reply to: Is there anyone kind enough to give me some advice? #391880PeterParticipantHi Greg
I don’t do the Instagram thing so don’t know much the expected etiquette (Just googled that and apparently thier are a lot of suggested rules)We live in a world with a lot of focus on immediate gratification. I.E when we text or such we desire a immediate response and become agitated (making up what if stories) when that desire isn’t met. But why should that be?
Not that long ago persons in your situation would write letters with weeks in between. The anticipation of receiving a letter can be enjoyable….
In your shoes I might approach the Instagram thing the same way. This will require you to be able to communicate your boundaries. Let her know you would like to continue communicating with her without the expectation of immediate responses… as if you were writing letters a suitable delay could be agreed on.
And perhaps a promise that if either of you wish to stop the communication you will let each other know. (no ghosting)In Buddhist terms – What is causing you the headache is your desire and attachment to wanting what you want right now which has very little to do with this woman. She isn’t giving you the headache your are… Imagine enjoying the communications without such attachments.
PeterParticipantIf one is open to love then is one seeking love? If one is open to love then will one find love?
In the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy –Â a character named “Prak,” who “knows all that is true,” confirms that 42 is indeed The Answer to the Ultimate question – (The Ultimate question was What is 6 x 9 – which was the answer to the question What is the meaning of life 6 x 9 = 42),
The joke goes:
âWhat do you get if you multiply six by nine?”
“Six by nine. Forty two.”
“That’s it. That’s all there is.”
“I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universeâOf course thier is another possibility, that there is nothing wrong with the universe as it is but something wrong with our math (how we measure).
I wonder if that is the same as our questions about Love? Love is often given as the answer as to the meaning of Life and or Love = Life…. What if Love = 42…. and all the messy parts of life, at some perspective is also always only Love?
In the Hitchhiker Guide the problem wasn’t in the universe or the math but that if the Answer and The Ultimate Question was known in the same universe, they would cancel each other out and take the Universe with them, to be replaced by something even more bizarre and that it may have already happened.
I often wonder if their might not be some truth to that đ There is a Buddhist thought that that for those who have completed their task, found thier question to thier answer… become no more….
I’ve always like Five for Fighting’s song the Riddle
There was a man back in ninety-five
Whose heart ran out of summers
But before he died, I asked him
Wait, what’s the sense in life?
Come over me, come over me?He said, son why you got to sing that tune?
Catch a Dylan song or some eclipse of the moon?
Let an angel swing and make you swoon
Then you will see, you will seeThen he said, here’s a riddle for you
Find the answer, there’s a reason for the world
You and IPicked up my kid from school today
Did you learn anything?
‘Cause in the world today
You can’t live in a castle far away
Now talk to me, come talk to meHe said, dad I’m big, but we’re smaller than small
In the scheme of things, well we’re nothing at all
Still every mother’s child sings a lonely song
So play with me, come play with meAnd hey dad, here’s a riddle for you
Find the answer, there’s a reason for the world
You and I?I said, son for all I’ve told you
When you get right down to the
Reason for the world who am I?There are secrets that we still have left to find
There have been mysteries from the beginning of time
There are answers we’re not wise enough to see
He said, you looking for a clue?
I love you freeThe batter swings and the summer flies
As I look into my angel’s eyes
A song plays on while the moon is hiding over me
Something comes over meI guess we’re big and I guess we’re small
If you think about it man you know we got it all
‘Cause we’re all we got on this bouncing ball
And I love you free, I love you freelyHere’s a riddle for you
Find the answer, there’s a reason for the world
You and II Love you free… and if I can love myself as I love others… I love me free…
PeterParticipantTo me ego is the identity one assigns to themselves. The concept me being my own entity separate from others comes from the ego. And I had mentioned earlier that I think the ego is there to protect us. Surely, life would be a lot easier if we let go of my understanding of ego because the number of things that matter would dramatically reduce. But at the same time, if I donât have that ego wouldnât it be hard to protect myself from others?
In the first sentence you make the statement – “The ego is the identity” (ego = identity) You can how suffering might result. I am a athlete, my self of self, my identity is attached to my athletic ability. I break my leg and can no longer perform. Who am I? Ego experienced as identify is prone to Inflation (Feelings that we are better than we are. I am better than you because I am a better athlete) and Deflation (I am nothing because you are a better athlete then I). Perhaps you notice how both inflation and deflation are measurements that separate us from the other. Not in the healthy way that would aid someone to learning to live in harmony with others and themselves. Nothing produces more conflict, tribalism, disharmony then when ego = identity and it feels threatened.
How do I see ego? I picture ego as the part of ourselves that communicates experience. A tool we use to help one understand, learn, keep safe, become conscious…. I have an ego, it is useful, I am not my ego.
My feeling is that in the East there is a tendency to negate the ego often resulting in a lack of energy to engage, while in the West a tendency toward over identifying with ego resulting in a need to dominate, consume, own…
As you mentioned ego plays a important role in keeping one safe, the question might be then is how it does so? Ego as Identity? or Ego as container, communicator, boundaries?
I mentioned Jung’s statement – ‘It take a healthy ego to let go of ego’. Jung suggested that the first half of life task was to develop a healthy container (ego). A neither inflated nor deflated sense of self, healthy boundaries that was capable of providing for itself, family, society…) The second half of life task involves the paradox of separating oneself from others, which at the same time recognizes the other as/in themselves. Which naturally flows into compassion for ourselves and others. A drop in the ocean contains the ocean…
This was a lesson I also learned in dancing. When you start to take classes to learn the rhythms and rules. A waltz looks like this, a Cha Cha like this. Eventually the student will be told that to dance they must ‘forget‘ what they learned to dance. But not until they developed the ‘container’. To break the rules, one must know the rules. Forget is probably the wrong word as what happens is that the student learns to Trust what they learned, trust that the body knows (Body always knew how to dance, the student must work for that which the body already knows. Like the statue that already exists in the stone)
Another story
A man traveling along a path came to a great expanse of water. As he stood on the shore, he realized there were dangers and discomforts all about. But the other shore appeared safe and inviting. The man looked for a boat or a bridge and found neither. But with great effort he gathered grass, twigs and branches and tied them all together to make a simple raft. Relying on the raft to keep himself afloat, the man paddled with his hands and feet and reached the safety of the other shore. He could continue his journey on dry land.
Now, what would he do with his makeshift raft? Would he drag it along with him or leave it behind? He would leave it, the Buddha said. Then the Buddha explained that the dharma is like a raft. It is useful for crossing over but not for holding onto….
I agree with Tommy’s concern with the word ‘seek’Â as we tend to see the world as we are not as it is, thier will be a tendency to find what we expect to find.
Note however that Seek does not stand alone in the formula. The seeker seeks, knocks and waits. Note how the knock (not passive) creates vibrations…. and puts into motion… as we wait the ripples pushing aside that which may cloud our vision, the water better able to reflect what is…..
Here is a riddle for you. When does a seeker become a finder?
PeterParticipantCan you really have a good life if everyone is identifying with their ego and working in their best interest. Like at work, letâs say I let go of my ego and take work from others as well, isnât it against my best interest. I would be giving away from energy, no?
I don’t think so. When you say ‘let go of my ego’ what do you think that means?
PeterParticipantHi Samy Great thoughts
I wonder why is identifying with emotions bad? In a non dualistic way of good and bad concepts disappear. đ as for example anger can be experienced as both, even at the same moment in time. The intention is to experience the emotion without attaching a sense of self to it. To allow the experience flow which is I guess a kind of letting go (working for that which no work is required – the moment has passed – if so what is it that we are holding on to (attaching to) )Â
But did it change anything? Whether Lion killed motivated by nature or anger, the rabbit would still be dead. If you witness the killing and could verify that the Lion killed out of anger. Has your image and feelings toward the Lion changed, perhaps you might view the Lion with less compassion and as a other? Attaching to the Lion labels – like Lion is what it did vice the Lion did a ugly thing.
I Just worrying about what true detachment. A helpful concern to be mindful of. For myself I often find myself falling into the trap of indifference. When I notice that, I know that my practice of detachment has become something else. Thus the Practice of mindfulness. (note that the practice of mindfulness also involves avoiding attaching our sense of self to labels, thoughts, emotions đ Mindfulness is about noticing. We are better able to notice when we practice detachment. Which comes first Mindfulness OR Detachment? The question is dualistic thinking đ There is no OR… or First)
I also feel that the Practice of healthy detachment creates healthy boundaries, that lead to Compassion where the idea of the ‘Other’ dissolves. I suspect a unhealthy detachment sets one back into dualistic thinking, Tribalism, Us verses Them…
Where do you learn your lessons from? Books have been my primary learning tool and the seem to show up when I’m ready for them. (its one thing to read/know of something quite another to integrate it, make it your own). Something Jung noted had a big impact – He said that it takes a healthy ego (healthy sense of self) to be able ‘let go’ of ego (letting go of ego here is not denying the ego only avoiding identifying (attaching) the sense of self to ego) Thus again we work for that which no work is required)
I also learned a a lot from taking ballroom dancing classes and approaching it as a practice. Practicing being still while physically engaged in dancing and connected to a partner. Engaged while detached from outcome… (as above so below, as below so above – the riddle of alchemy)
A Zen practice of being mindful/present while we perform our tasks, one begins to notice when the inner state is influencing the outer experience Or when the outer experience is influencing the inner. (Note in a pervious post where I mentioned that a Answer Of No to the question of ‘Life as it Is’ didn’t end the cycle of suffering. One of the reasons is that a NO usually involves trying to change life from the Outside as a act of will (often about wanting to control Life) were we have very little influence. While a YES comes from a place that starts from within, where we have influence, (if not always control) that flows with Life.)
Their is a idea of ‘Concentration without Effort’Â A kind of act of will/intention that is the is a letting go of will…Â words fail in trying to explain… kind of the difference between reading a book and being open to the book reading you…
Anyway You can trust that when you are ready (open without forcing yourself to be open) the ‘teacher’Â will show themselves to you.
There is a saying Knock and the Door will open, Seek and you shell find. I would add that we can seek and we can knock and then we must wait at the door to open in its time. We ought not to try to open the door ourselves or force it open.
Thus I ponder the words of TS Eliot as I imagine knocking at the door and waiting: – âI ask to my soul, be still and wait without hope, for hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love, for love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith, but the faith and the love are all in the waiting. Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought: So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.â
PeterParticipantGood question. How do you know?
I think it evolves one engaging with ones truth, detached from outcome and open to learning.
Perhaps you had the experience where to do what you ‘knew’ need to be done you worked yourself up, attaching to energy of anger, being offended, righteous in your certainty or even hate… in order to engage. The idea that one must become angry about something in order to act.
Notice – Become angry- as in ‘I am my emotions’ vice ‘I have emotions. Notice how you feel when you read – I am my emotion, anger, and I act. verses, I have experienced a emotion of anger and I act.  Perhaps my Actions did not succeed, I have failed, I am a failure, Life is unfair…. verses I had a experience, I am not the experience, or the result of the experience. Life Is as it Is and I engaged with it as it is.
Dancing at (from) the Still Point… Engagement with Life is a Art
Ref the story. I can give you my take on the story but such stories are intended to be pondered.
The samuraiâs mission was not simply to kill the murderer, but to honor his duty, his intrinsic truth. To an observer, whether he killed the culprit motivated by honor or anger, it wouldnât have mattered. The murderer would be dead either way. To the samurai, his own motivation made all the difference. A difference perhaps of reacting out of anger and responding from a place of stillness, his intrinsic sense of truth.
Perhaps if we enter the story earlier we might see that the murderer in killing the master was also acting from a place of intrinsic truth. (How complicated Life is, The Lion eats the rabbit that eats the grass that eats the nitrates in the soil…) Only when confronted he reacted out of fear and spit… If the Lion ate the rabbit out of hate or anger that would be a very different experience to the Lion eating the rabbit because Lions eat rabbits, as rabbits eat grass, as grass eat nutrients in the soil…Â (Life eats Life)
The gift of consciousness requires more of us then of the Lion, it requires us to be completely honest with ourselves as we look at Life as it IS and the actions we take as part of it.
Something to meditate on and ponder.  ‘We work for that which no work is required’
PeterParticipantBut if that is the case, is there room for morality? Harming others is bad, donât we need to label it as such. This is what Iâm struggling with. What do you accept and what do you label and dislike/ reject/ try to change.
Yes their is room. The intention is to be Detached (from the labels and such) AND engaged with ones truth. The challenge is that a such a detachment can easily become indifference.
Another story
A samurai warrior had the duty to avenge the murder of his overlord. After some time, the samurai found and cornered the man who had murdered his overlord. He was about to deal with him with his samurai sword, when this man in the corner, in the passion of terror, spat in his face. And the samurai sheathed the sword and walked away.
PeterParticipantHi Samy
No worries Samy, confusion is what I do đ
I agree the ego, sense of self has a important role to play in our experiences. That said it helpful to remember that you are not your ego.
Duality – problem of opposites. Ego consciousness tends to arise through the tension of opposites. If we only experience warm we could never become conscious of cold or this thing called temperature. Ego consciousness tends to experience the world as either this or that, black or white, either or = duality. Helpful for survival but it also separates us from each other.
We have become conscious of temperature yet how is it that the same temperature can be experience one moment and cold the next. Something appears to amiss with ego consciousness breaking down experience as being ‘either or’ – duality. A ego may experience this uncertainty as suffering.
Unitive conscious is able to experience the world without dividing it up into opposites.
With regards to the story; A broken leg could be seen as having been a bad thing OR a good thing depending on perspective (duality) . A Unitive awareness might experience the broken leg as it IS and not a Good or Bad Either Or…
Enough of that confusion..
I like the meaning you found in the story.
PeterParticipantHi Sammy
How to reconcile existence (life) with the fact that to experience existence (life) is to experience suffering?
Life a continues cycle of birth and death. Spring dies to Summer which dies to Fall which dies to Winter with gives birth to Spring which gives birth to Summer which gives birth to Fall which gives birth to Winter….
Life feeds off of Life = inevitable suffering.
The duality (ego) consciousness experiences life as suffering and joy. We tend to pay more attention to pain, fear and measure accordingly. (So Life is suffering) Note how in a day of 10 memorable moments were one of them is negative how most people when asked about their day will think only of the negative one. In general duality consciousness is not very skilled at measuring = more suffering)
All things in thier time and a time for all things.
For a Non-dual consciousness Birth and death are not opposites as they cannot be separated, they occur together in every moment no mater how big or small. Every creation is also a destruction, every destruction also a creation. To a unitive mind they are one ‘thing’.
Joseph Campbell suggested each of our stories is a story of the hero’s journey. THE Question that is behind each quest being ‘How to Respond to the Realty that Life devours life for Life. How to respond to ‘Life As It Is’ is wonder and horror?
Every Wisdom tradition attempts to help us answer that question for ourselves. (Not just answer but to be that answer) Oddly each wisdom tradition answer can be interpreted as both a Yes OR No by those engaged in the teaching. For Example many might say that Buddhist answer the question with a NO get me off this cycle of life that is suffering. Yet the teachings of the Buddha Gautama points to a answer of YES now go and engage ‘Life As It Is’ . (the paradox being that this YES to ‘Life As It Is’ , fully integrated in ones being, ends the cycle.) Through the practice of Detachment (not indifference) one can be Still while fully engaged. You have experiences and emotions verses you are your experiences and your emotions…
Likewise I think Christianity. The dogmas and theology tend to point to a answer of No we can fix Life if we follow the rules while Jesus teaching point to a answer with a YES, follow me engage with LIFE AS IT IS – Birth Death Reresection the reality of every breathe we take (as well as all phycological growth)
Perhaps a answer of YES requires a higher level of non-duality consciousness… if higher and lower were opposites and meant something đ I would also note that every wisdom teaching I have come across that express the concept of levels of consciousness the ‘highest level’ is always one involving non-duality. (In Jungian path to Individuation coming to terms with the problem of opposites)Â
And so we work for that which no work is required. (How’s that for a paradox) đ
PeterParticipantAll that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost. – TolkienThe art of detachment, darkness is light and the still point, dance
đ
PeterParticipantâHarry, This pain is part of being human ââ
âTHEN â I â DONâT â WANT â TO â BE â HUMAN!â Harry roared, and he seized one of the delicate silver instruments from the spindle-legged table beside him and flung it across the room. It shattered into a hundred tiny pieces against the wall. Several of the pictures let out yells of anger and fright, and the portrait of Armando Dippet said, âReally!â
âI DONâT CARE!â Harry yelled at them, snatching up a lunascope and throwing it into the fireplace. âIâVE HAD ENOUGH, IâVE SEEN ENOUGH, I WANT OUT, I WANT IT TO END, I DONâT CARE ANYMORE ââ
He seized the table on which the silver instrument had stood and threw that too. It broke apart on the floor and the legs rolled in different directions.
âYou do care,â said Dumbledore. He had not flinched or made a single move to stop Harry demolishing his office. His expression was calm, almost detached. âYou care so much you feel as though you will bleed to death with the pain of it. JK Rowlingâ
Such is the paradox of Pain… Only a open heart can be broken, and broken, opened…
âPeople are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how great love is, but thatâs bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if theyâre afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But theyâre wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. Itâs all in how you carry it. Thatâs what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, youâre letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain.â
â Jim Morrison -
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