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October 21, 2016 at 12:03 pm in reply to: Still I hope … How I do get over this and move on. #118646PeterParticipant
As a guy I can tell you that when a guy does the on again off again relationship such as you describe it usually comes from a place of insecurity. This type of relationship can be about power and maintain a safe backup in case he finds something better. Such people might also struggle with valuing what they have, preferring the chase to the having.
One of the purposes of relationships is to heal the past and so both parties create and play out scenarios that there authentic self is attempting to come to terms with and heal. This is almost always subconscious and too often create the codependent relationship. Such scenarios will continue until they are solved.
Statistically the on again off again relationship do not mature. My own rule of thumb is three cycles and its over. And over means no contact. You may not like hearing this but ending a relationship with no contact may just be required for the healing of the past the authentic self was trying to solve.
With regards to Hope, Hope is a skill to often practiced badly that when passive, keeps the hopeful stuck.
There are times when hope can be dangerous as in holding onto the idea that an expired relationship may yet again find footing and there are times when hope is essential such as when it keeps us from drowning in despair.
“To hope means to be ready at every moment for that which is not yet born, and yet not become desperate if there is no birth in our lifetime. Erich Fromm
Doing Active Hope – Joanna Macy and Chris Johnstone
The word hope has two different meanings. The first involves hopefulness, believing our preferred outcome is reasonably likely to happen. If we require this kind of hope before we commit ourselves to an action, our response gets blocked in areas where we don’t rate our chances too high.The second meaning is about desire. It is this kind of hope that starts our journey — knowing what we hope for and what we’d like, or love, to take place. It is what we do with this hope that really makes the difference. Passive hope is about waiting for external agencies to bring about what we desire. Active Hope is about becoming active participants in bringing about what we hope for.
Active Hope is a practice. Like tai chi or gardening, it is something we do rather than have. It is a process we can apply to any situation, and it involves three key steps. First, we take in a clear view of reality; second, we identify what we hope for in terms of the direction we’d like things to move in or the values we’d like to see expressed; and third, we take steps to move ourselves or our situation in that direction.
Since Active Hope doesn’t require our optimism, we can apply it even in areas where we feel hopeless. The guiding impetus is intention; we choose what we aim to bring about, act for, or express. Rather than weighing our chances and proceeding only when we feel hopeful, we focus on our intention and let it be our guide.
PeterParticipantRelationship is a crucible where we discover who we are. – We are wounded in relationship and we heal through relationship…
We are hurt by those closest to us because they are closest to us. I cannot comment of the hurt you have experienced from your partner and it is no my intention to discount that experience of hurt.
When I read your post, between the lines, I heard a longing for authentic relationship with another and so it is my intention that the following quotes might help you use this experience as a doorway to becoming.
“The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed.” ― C.G. Jung
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― C.G. Jung
“The foundation of adult trust is not “You will never hurt me.” It is “I trust myself with whatever you do.” ― David Richo
“When we feel unsafe with someone and still stay with him, we damage our ability to discern trustworthiness in those we will meet in the future.”
― David RichoYou may find the following article helpful
http://www.elizabethstrazar.com/site/Suggested_Reading_&_Articles_files/StagesofRelationship.pdf
“The perfect partner is often the one who triggers off our core emotional wounds so that we can revisit and mend our past injuries. The reopening of our old hurts allows us to name, understand, and tend to original, yet often faulty and self-defeating, beliefs about interpersonal attachment and identity. It is inevitable that our unmet needs from childhood, which influence both our style of intimacy and our self-image/self-worth, will be played out in the crucible of our current intimate connections.”
Understanding the stages of a relationship helps us to map the territory and gain more insight into how to utilize intimate connections as a pathway toward personal healing. In essence, how to choose the healing salve more often than not – Elizabeth Strazar
Very much recommend David Richo book, How to Be an Adult in Relationships: The Five Keys to Mindful Loving
“As long as you hold onto wanting something from the outside, you will be dissatisfied because there is a part of you that you are still not totally owning. . . . How can you be complete and fulfilled if you believe that you cannot own this part [of yourself ] until somebody else does something? . . . If it is conditional, it is not totally yours. —A. H. ALMAAS” David Richo
“Most people think of love as a feeling but love is not so much a feeling as a way of being present.” David Richo
“The more invested I am in my own ideas about reality, the more those experiences will feel like victimizations rather than the ups and downs of relating. Actually, I believe that the less I conceptualize things that way, the more likely it is that people will want to stay by me, because they will not feel burdened, consciously or unconsciously, by my projections, judgments, entitlements, or unrealistic expectations.” David Richo
“We can actually reconstruct our past by examining what we think, say, feel, expect, believe, and do in an intimate relationship now.” David Richo
PeterParticipantA dance instructor I had once talked about learning how to accept that were you were, which foot or position you were currently in, was the correct position from which to move from.
Obvious right. I mean it’s not like you can magically shift weight onto the other foot without shifting your weight to the other foot. The only place you can move from is from the position you are in and so that position must be the correct place to be in for whatever comes next.
Yet how many of us get stuck by the thinking that where we are is not the right place to move from. (Even as we move)
You might argue this is a matter of semantics and or form of positive thinking but I don’t think it is.
By accepting the reality that you can only move from where you are and so where you are is the best place from which to move creates space to move more freely.
I know this realization does not help in answering the question of what the next move should be and look like. However when I accepted this truth in my dancing whatever did come next tended to be more graceful. Without the tension I was creating about being in the wrong position the next position flowed as part of the dance and music I chose to dance to.
Have you thought of getting back into one of your creative activates as a form of alchemy/Zen practice?
- This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Peter.
PeterParticipantSorry if the above is confusing. It’s something I’m still trying to work out and the limitation of language tends to get in the way of how I experience love intuitively.
I do have a last question.
What if ‘Loving others as ourselves’ isn’t only a command but the reality of how we love?
That how we love others IS how we love ourselves and that for the most part we don’t really know how to love ourselves very well?
- This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Peter.
PeterParticipantLove one another as you love yourself. Do you follow this rule in your daily life?
Before I think that question can be answered I think we must understand what it means to love oneself.
What is this thing we call Love and If we were to love ourselves unconditionally what would it look like?
For many unconditional love is an unconscious expectation or requirement of unconditional allowing.
We are told love means we must turn the other cheek and that that means someone can be and do what they will and that forgiveness means saying what happened was ok. That is not love and not if we look how we love ourselves.The expectation or demand that love be unconditional in this way is one heck of a condition!
What then is unconditional love?
When we meditate on the nature and experience of love it appears to operate on multiple planes. As conscious Beings we want who we are and so what we do to matter, to make a difference, to impact and be valued, especially in or interactions with those we care about. We seek meaning, purpose in our experience and expression of love.
We love ourselves unconditionally when we allow ourselves the experience of meaning and purpose in who we are and what we do which requires ‘getting to be’ held accountable for who we are and what we do.
When we don’t hold ourselves or others accountable we do not love them for such a thing would mean that who they are and what they do has no value.
For meaning and purpose to be experienced the qualities of accountability and responsibility must also be qualities of love. Love means we get to be held accountable and responsible for who we are and what we do. Thinking, feeling, doing, being
So it seems to me that we love ourselves when we hold ourselves accountable, in grace, for who we are and what we do. To love others as ourselves we love unconditionally and say YES to life as it is.
Loving others as ourselves is not a compromise nor does it require that we or the other be perfect.
Loving others as ourselves does not mean we make ourselves vulnerable. Acts of ‘turning the other cheek” are actually quite aggressive as it forces the person to see themselves as they are. Turning the other cheek can be acts of love or hate.Loving ourselves means we live our truths in grace so that when we learn better we might do better. Holding ourselves accountable not out of anger or sense of justice but because that is how we learn who we are and experience meaning and purpose.
When we love others as ourselves we say YES to who we and they are.
We accept getting to be unconditionally accountable, for the good we and they do and what we might experience as bad. Not from a place of anger, hate, justice but Love.Too often we create labels of our experience to justify and empower what we do to others and how we treat them. We call it justice or self-protection. We use hate and anger to hold others accountable, (and sometimes ourselves) but we can do not need to hate to empower our actions and being we can love.
This is not a Hate the sin love the sinner philosophy. When we say Yes to life as it is we say yes that we will missing the mark in our becoming (sin). This is not a passive allowing and accepting. We must live our truths. Saying Yes we must stand up and say no to what our truths require us to say no to, just as we must allow others to live there truths, coming from a place of love.
The emotion of anger might point to a confrontation with our experiences of our truths and others however we don’t need to empower the action we might take from a place of anger.
We say yes to life as it is by living our truths as authentically as we know them while being open to learning better. We will get it wrong just as the other we love will get it wrong yet in grace we create the space were everyone involved might become more conscious and awaken to who we are.
PeterParticipantDecided to begin writing about the facts of my past
That is a good place to start. But remember that facts while they may influence are not Truth that is you. You are more the sum of your experiences.
I don’t know what it is that I’m truly looking for
The quests of quests for which there is no easy answer….
Looking for something that you don’t yet know you’re looking for… how will you know when you find it?
I believe there is an art to looking and that is has something that involves the Zen art of doing by not doing. Or in this case looking by not looking.It sounds like a paradox but it isn’t. Science shows us that the observer changes what he sees so never truly sees what he looks at as it is. That will always be the case however the seeker can learn to look by not looking, without expectations, which is more often than not an attempt to control what is been seen.
Have your read the book ‘The Alchemist’ by Paulo Coelho A heroes journey of discovering ones Truth/Purpose.
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot
Best wishes on your exploration
PeterParticipantMay I ask what you mean when you use the word ‘Truth’
My experience has been that finding ones Truth is a life long journey.
I am convinced that we live the stories that we tell ourselves but that such stories are seldom the whole truth of who we are… we are more then the sum of our parts, the roles we play, the stories we tell…
This may be a time for you to reflect on your stories. How have they shaped you and the filters through which you experience new experiences? How much of these stories are true, how much of the stories you tell have been influenced by the trickery that is memory.
We tend to assume that we know all the details of every moment we experienced but consciousness is extremity limited as it must fitter out most of details so that we can function but that also means the memory’s created of the experience are always incomplete and some might call illusions.
I found the book ‘Crucial Conversations’ helpful in helping me discover and take owner ship of the stories I was telling myself. And then how those stories were influencing my experiences.
I know you might be asking how would leaning how to communicate with others help you with your stories. Well the person you talk to the most is yourself. At least I do.
First step in good self-communication – Master My Stories (an out take from ‘Crucial Conversations’)
When it matters most and our emotions kick in, we often do our worst – even if we try to convince ourselves that we’re doing the right thing.
Learn to create emotions that influence you to want to return to healthy dialogue.
Others don’t make you mad, you make you mad. You see and hear something, and then you tell yourself a story. That story triggers your feelings. Then you either act on those feelings or have them act on you.
Manage your emotions by retracing your path. Return to the source of your feelings. Separate facts from feelings. You can see and hear facts. Stories, on the other hand, are judgments and conclusions that trigger your movement to silence or violence.
And watch for three clever stories:
The Victim Story that makes you out to be the innocent sufferer. Ask yourself, “Am I pretending not to notice my role in the problem?”
The Villain Story that emphasizes others’ negative qualities. Ask yourself, “Why would a reasonable, rational, and decent person do this?”
The Helpless Story that convinces you that you have no options for taking healthy action. Ask yourself, “What should I do right now to move toward what I really want?”PeterParticipantChange happens slowly then all at once. Meaning that we aren’t usually conscious of all the small little causes behind the effect that we notice.
Come across the following “Past, present, future, all co-existing, in different dimensions, with different rates of vibration. No that that has anything to do with your situation.
Anyway I think or feel that our experience of love occurs on different planes of dimensions, each with a different “vibration”….
When I hear someone in a relationship uses the words “I don’t love you anymore” I’m never sure what they mean. I suspect if you ask your wife what she means she might not be able to tell you.
My observation has been that even for two people who really love each other, and all the “vibrating” planes, mentally, spiritually, physically (life’s demands, taking out the garbage, shelter, security…) LOVE sometimes require that the relationship end. The Calling to Become requiring separation in order to be realized.
We can’t usually articulate that calling and so use the words “I don’t love”
Likewise when love in the relationship becomes one dimensional, perhaps physical life demands of taking out the garbage, providing a home, security, paying the bills we lose ourselves. In such a case the statement “I don’t love you anymore” is really the statement “I don’t see myself anymore”.
That probably not helpful… what am I saying…
I think before you separate both of you need to take ownership of what it means when you use the word love, your relationship to the word love.Sadly sometimes painful separation is required in order for us to Become and become more conscious of our relationship to relationship and love.
Sorry.
PeterParticipantFor some reason this is a very common experience in relationship break ups
The person that initiates the break up attempts to keep the light on just in case, a subconscious back up plan.To avoid the cycle relationship and create enough space for you to move on. You must be firm and Tell him to no longer contact you. No other words are required
If you soften your request in anyway with explanations and or justifications you open the door for continued communication.
If you intention is to break off contact you can’t leave openings of any kind as anything you say other than for him to stop contacting you is a opening
PeterParticipantIt is true such madness is not new but I think we are intuitively experiencing that something different is happening.
I think we are witnessing a paradigm shift due in personal communication styles and privacy expectations that we don’t yet understand or are conscious of.
Social technology allows us to share everything about ourselves while the 24 hour news/entertainment outlets allow nearly real time witnessing happenings around the globe. At the same time information that we might think is private isn’t and were not yet sure if we should care.
Anything you say can and will be used against you.
With regards to the 24 news/entertainment outlets and that includes the internet is the ability to discern news from editorial and entertainment.
Add to this the change in how we view privacy. No one is outraged that people hacking others people information and many people will freely share everything about themselves.
It is a paradigm change and we haven’t become fully conscious of how easily we can be manipulated once people gather this information about who we are and what that might mean.
We like to think we are unique, and we are, but we are also very much the same especially when it comes to communication. Just look at how accurate auto correct can be. With just a few words what we are going to say can be pretty accurattly predicted.
There appears to be two reactions to this. If privacy doesn’t matter what we say no longer matters or disconnect from communication into isolation.
Maybe it’s like the experiment were the dog is locked in the cage and shocked so that they move to one side of the cage to the other. Eventfully stopping all movement and just accepting the shocks. Even when the door to the cage opens the dog continues to just lie there.
I don’t know but something is changing and this madness we may be intuiting is coming from a place of uncertainty. I don’t think we are fully conscious of how technology is changing us.
World War One is a good example of the leaders not understanding the new weapon technology. Lets hope we don’t repeat the same mistakes.
I’m pretty sure we will
PeterParticipantThat is my solution as well. I think it comes down to the ability to discern news from editorial and entertainment.
I just want to be told the what, who, when, whereUnfortunately the news editorial becomes part of the what, who, when, where and it gets confusing. As we have to respond to not just what happened but how people are interpreting and reacting to what happens. In many cases what happened getting lost
PeterParticipantI found ‘Boundaries’ By Dr. Henry Cloud and John Townsend helpful
It does have religious content which I know some people might reject out of hand however the authors do a good job explaining how and when to set boundaries and its not preachy.
Actually it is often the religious or spiritual minded person that wishes to be loving and unselfish that are more likely to forget to set their own limits and limitations.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Peter.
PeterParticipantI have had bad experiences with the on again off again relationships
On-again/off-again relationships generally have a pretty bad reputation. And actually, science tends to back up what everyone’s cranky best friend is muttering to them.
Psychologists refer to this pretty common dating practice as “cycling”, and have found that a relationship that cycles during the dating phase is more likely to cycle once you live together or are married.
How to Stop the Cycle of Break Up & Reconciliation
STEP 1
Identify problems within the relationship. Whether it’s due to differences in opinion, values, beliefs or priorities, having open dialogue is important to conflict resolution. If establishing open communication is difficult with your partner, then utilizing a mediator who is trustworthy and neutral during conversations may be wise. In any case, pointing out what is causing the breakup and reconciliation cycle is key to avoiding it in the future.STEP 2
Listen to your conscience. Honesty will have to be well practiced during the process of ending this vicious relationship cycle. Own up to your mistakes, longings, and emotions even if your partner chooses otherwise. Often times this will help give you guidance on whether it is worth trying to fix at all if your partner decides they will not be honest or open. Avoid cutting off that little voice in your head that is trying to convey what you really desire.PeterParticipantMy experience with the “letting universe handle things” practice had often left me feeling peaceful yet listless… that’s not the right word… I found taping into the energy to change or start something new became more difficult.
I could feel great about myself and life when I was alone doing my own thing, calm, at peace… but interacting with the necessities of life (relationships, shelter, need to eat…) that calm quickly dissipated.
I wondered if like Gautama (or most spiritual masters), the only way to achieve this ‘letting go’ was to leave ones family and avoid life’s interactions.As my nature/destiny/fate/doom was unlikely to avoid the necessity of dealing with the necessity of life I felt I was in a rock and a hard place. Worse as indicated above with each cycle as I found I could accept life as it is I found less and less energy for action.
It seemed to me the practice of “letting universe handle things” was more nuanced then I had been practicing it.
Today my understanding of letting the universe handle things is that it is not about being passive but about learning how to say YES to life as it is, LOVE life as it is, the good the bad and the ugly, while living out and pursuing your truth as you know it in the moment. Easier said than done.
Could I say YES to a person and or experience, while still living and pursuing my truth as I understand it in that moment even if that meant standing up against the situation, experience or person?
The question sounded paradoxical to me and I knew this wasn’t a ‘love the person hate the sin’ kind of thing as I knew that saying yes was saying yes to the ‘sin’ as well. (I define sin as missing the mark in becoming) How could I say yes when I was also saying no.
I came across a story of a Japanese Samurai whose master was murdered. His truth as he understood his duty required that he find the murderer and kill him. In the moment he is about to kill the man the murderer spits at him at which point angered the Samurai sheaths his sword and walks away.
Had the Samurai killed the man form a place of anger and hate would have been saying No to life as it is, No to who he was, No to the murderer as he was… and so walked away. Saying YES to life as it is and living out his truth in that moment that required that he walk away.
Killing the murder and not killing the murder because he was angry where both acts of LOVE.
LOVE it seemed to me means saying YES to LIFE as it IS with Life requiring that I live it.
It’s a work in progress but my gut says this is the right path for me as it helps me tap into the energy I need to live my truth. One can live ones truth without hate, vengeance, judgments, labels, pursuit of some this thing we call justice…..
Wow how far off track did I go.
PeterParticipantMemories are stories we tell ourselves about our past – John Slattery
I believe we become the stories we tell ourselves and must learn to discern the difference between a memory that has become our story and a story that contains references to memory.
Readying your life it appears to me that painful memory of the past has become your present story.
You are stuck.
Memory is a trickster. Many unconsciously assume that they remember things as they happened even the motivation and expenses of others as that appear as part of that memory. We are almost always wrong. Consciousness is has a very limited bandwidth and tends to focus attention to very specific aspects of our experiences. We can never know the whole story.
I do not mean to imply that the negative experiences you had didn’t happen to you. Instead I’m hoping, that by understanding that you can’t know the whole story, you can create some space, some breathing room that might allow for grace – For yourself and others, but here I think more importantly for yourself.
It would be my hope that you realize that the memories of our past does not have to define the story of your experience today.
I highly recommend the books
‘Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, ‘and
‘Change Anything: The New Science of Personal Success’
– both by Kerry PattersonBoth processes start by owning the stories we tell ourselves, which when we do improves the conversations we can have with others and ourselves (self-talk).
We become the stories we tell, so tell a good one.
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