Dear Milda,

you’re very welcome!

Yes, codependent behavior worked for me as a child, because I learned that it will keep me “safe” (now I see it as imaginary safety, because you are never truly safe, if safety is conditional and depends on how you manage parents’ emotions and struggles).

Yes, your safety and the sense of well-being depend on your parents’ feelings and emotional states/moods. And so if they feel upset, you need to do something to calm them down. Or if they feel distressed and unable to perform normal daily tasks, you jump in, so things wouldn’t fall apart.

From what I’ve seen from people in my surroundings, a lot of it is damage control, or damage prevention. And it’s hard to let go if you feel that something really bad is going to happen to Mom or Dad, and that you’ll be responsible for it (because you were conditioned your entire life to believe that you’re responsible for your parents and that you need to take care of their needs, and if you don’t, you’re a bad daughter).

This kind of conditioning is typical for narcissistic parents, and you said that your father might have narcissistic features: Father’s scepticism and narcisim is like a punch in the face

With narcissistic parents, things are much worse, because they feel entitled and they don’t really care about their child’s needs. And so this stance – that their needs come first and that you, as their child, should serve them – is very natural to them. And then they tend to shame and guilt the child for wanting to break free from that servant/caretaker role.

There is an amazing youtube channel by a psychotherapist Jerry Wise, who specializes in narcissistic parents and how we can break free from their conditioning. In a video entitled “Narcissistic parents: how they make you a highly reactive adult“, he says among other things that codependency is a fawn response (min 6:30), which is another trauma response (besides fight, flight or freeze).

So yeah, children of narcissistic parents, specially when there was addiction involved, are susceptible to becoming caretakers and codependent. It’s not just you, Milda, but many children from similar backgrounds. Luckily, there is a way out.

I’m dealing with the core, which is my parents, my programs that kept me SAFE during childhood. I start to think that there is no option to change. Because it’s like being born with brown hair and work towards the blond- yes, you can use hair dye, but your hair will keep on growing and roots will always show your real color.

I get what you’re saying. I think that so far you felt that change isn’t possible, because those trauma responses are written in your subconscious mind, in your nervous system. They’re a part of your “operating system”, so to speak. But thankfully, there are ways to reprogram that operating system, and one of the ways I believe is a program offered by Lisa Romano.

Jerry Wise also has an online course about breaking free from narcissistic parents. I don’t know if he offers somatic methods, such as reprogramming of the subconscious mind and learning new patterns. But his youtube videos are top quality, he has an amazing insight, so I would assume that he too offers a solid method to heal from those old patterns.

If I just come back to the old behavior, I would be extremelly unhappy, stressed for the rest of my life. But everyone around me will be very comfortable. I want to be happy. I really, truly want to be happy and free.

I hear you, Milda. You don’t need to keep the status quo. You don’t need to sacrifice yourself and your own happiness for your parents or anyone else. You deserve to live the life that makes you happy.

It doesn’t mean you suddenly turn your back on everyone and become selfish. It simply means that you stop abandoning yourself and your own needs, your own desires, your own goals and dreams. You have the right to be your own person, independent of the whims and demands of your parents.

I hope you feel a little less scared and alone by now. There are resources and people that can help you. There is a way out!

I am rooting for you, Milda ❤️

If you need any pointers, or would like to talk about anything at all, I’m here…

Dear Milda,

I’m sorry you’re suffering, but it’s amazing how aware you are, and willing to make a move. You said that 2 years ago, you might not have been ready, but since then, you’ve ready many books and learned a lot about codependency and its causes.

But even though you understand the problem on the theoretical level, you say you still can’t make a significant change in practice, because your parents’ negative reaction immediately sends you back into that place, emotionally, where you feel guilty and unable to set boundaries.

I have people in my surroundings who struggle with codependency, and have been reading about it lately. And I’ve come across the teachings of Lisa Romano, a coach and best-selling author, who herself was codependent but found a way to break through, using methods that involve healing the inner child, i.e. learning how to respond in a different way, learning emotional detachment, etc.

She says that codependency is a trauma response, where the child is trying to manage and help their parent(s), so they would be more or less functional and/or non-threatening to the child, so that the child would feel a measure of safety. Basically, she’s saying that codependency is a survival strategy.

And as such, it is deeply ingrained in our nervous system. Each time we want to stand up for ourselves and set boundaries, the fear of rejection (and perhaps even existential fear) gets triggered, and we immediately slip into the old fight-or-flight response, where we give up on our needs, in order to please our parents.

That’s what Anita was talking about too: the brain-body chemistry and the need to work on the somatic level too, not only cognitively.

You say talk therapy hasn’t helped you, and Lisa Romano talks about it too. She says that constantly talking about past trauma, but without learning and applying the tools to self-regulate, is only going to strengthen those trauma circuits in the brain. So I can imagine that classical talk therapy can even be counter-productive, when it comes to dealing with codependency.

Anyway, in case you’re interested, there’s a video in which Lisa Romano explains her method. It’s on youtube, and the title is “Codependency is a trauma response/Healing starts with ending denial.”

She also has a book, titled: “Codependent – Now What?“, which I’ve just purchased, and so far it seems very illuminating.

You said:

To be able to feel all of these unpleasant emotions, to hear parents’ insulting, hurtful words, to hear mothers “How dare you think about yourself when there are other people, you are not the centre of the word” and still do what I want to do. To feel guilty, but still not do what I do not want to. To feel the urge to fix somebody’s problem, but not fix it.

Yes, that’s the goal! Emotional self-regulation is key. When the trigger comes, to notice the old, habitual feelings of fear rising, but instead of giving in to the old pattern of people pleasing, we stay present with our feelings and we tell ourselves that we’re safe, for example. Lisa Romano’s exercise is something along those lines.

The goal is to first become aware of our habitual thinking/reacting process, and not slip into it automatically (like on an automatic pilot), but to include our conscious awareness (our prefrontal cortex) as an observer. That seems to be the first step in reprogramming our old, subconscious patterns.

I hope this was helpful to you, Milda, and that it will give you ideas for the next step. You seem very ready to take it ❤️

Hi Peter,

Would those around me call me passive?

No… perhaps… Has my my engagement in this dialogue been passive? What does passivity mean to you?

I’ve only asked because you mentioned it first 🙂

You said:
The second half of life, for me, seems to be about letting go but in a way that makes space for something deeper to emerge. I don’t experience that as passive but can understand how it might seem that way from the outside looking in.

I thought you might be referring to people in your life, or those acquainted to you (those “outside looking in”), not necessarily us here on the forum.

In this stillness, To let go is not to withdraw. It is to listen more deeply, to respond without grasping, to be present without needing to be seen.

If passivity means absence, then no, I am not passive. But if it means stillness, then perhaps… and I’m learning to welcome it.

I understand that you have a rich inner life, and that your goal is to spend as much time as possible in stillness, listening deeply, processing whatever inner tension you might feel, and then letting go, both of the need to prove anything (“respond without grasping”), or to be seen in a certain light (“present without needing to be seen”). The result is inner peace and stillness, which if I understood well, is fulfilling and nurturing to you.

Let me know if I got this right?

As for what passivity means for me, hmm, I haven’t thought about it. Perhaps it’s the absence of action that would be necessary and beneficial under the circumstances. Failure to share one’s gifts and talents. Procrastination. Perhaps, in simplest terms, absence of something that should be present 🙂

Dear Dafne,

I won’t have many chances to go outside.

Does it mean you need to take care of a family member and won’t have too many chances to go outside?

I’m relieved to hear that you’re relatively safe physically, but please do take care of yourself!

Rooting for you, Dafne, and hope to hear from you soon! 🙏 ❤️

Hi Peter,

I’m glad that you’ve appreciated our conversation, including my sharing about projection. I’m grateful to you for being a safe person and open to hearing my thoughts and feelings, without making me feel judged. I truly appreciate that 🙏

The outer pursuits still have their place, but they no longer feel like the center of gravity. The second half of life, for me, seems to be about letting go but in a way that makes space for something deeper to emerge.

It does make sense to me that you don’t feel like primarily pursuing outer goals in this phase of life, but getting in touch and aligning with your deeper self, and living from that place.

I myself still have outer goals, since I’ve been a notorious procrastinator, fears dominating certain parts of my life. But I do feel that my outer pursuit is aligned with my true self and is an expression of it. So it’s kind of the inner and the outer working together… only I need to get the outer part – the manifestation in the physical – working better 🙂

I don’t experience that as passive but can understand how it might seem that way from the outside looking in.

I wonder if people in your surroundings have told you that – that you’re passive? You don’t need to answer, of course, only if you feel like it.

This has been a truly illuminating conversation, Peter. I hope we can chat some more 🙂

Hi Peter,

I’ve seen your latest post only after having submitted mine…

I think I can name the ‘loop’ I’ve sensed in the pattern of our dialogue – ‘Yet But’.
You tend to lean into the outer, objective experience of conflict – what was said, what needs to be addressed. While I tend to lean into the inner, subjective experience – what was felt, what shifted, what resisted. Both of us I think caught in the loop of – ‘yes but’ the outer experience…. ‘yes but’ inner experience…

Yes, that too might be the reason (in addition to what I suggested above 🙂 ). You’re right, I’m very focused on what happens on the outside – if the conflict is of the kind that I believe requires some outer action too. However, I don’t focus only on the outer, and have learned how important it is to actually first pay attention to the inner experience, and only then respond.

But I think that we must address both: fist the inner, then the outer (if the situation calls for an outer action).

Hi Peter,

I think Alessa gave good examples of 2 different ways to deal with the conflict (thank you, Alessa!).

One is to passively take the hits and wait till perhaps someone else intervenes. The other is to “fight” and stand your ground, rather than withdraw or detach/go numb. I guess in the first case, the person would probably have to be a little detached or desensitized, because it’s hard to take the hits without wanting to do something about it, i.e. without wanting to protect yourself from pain.

I guess the way I approach conflict is that I believe that the person who took the passive approach (endurance and possibly detachment/numbing) isn’t really doing themselves a favor, i.e. their endurance might be a defense mechanism, but it’s not the optimal way to deal with conflict.

Of course, in certain situations, when it’s about physical or sexual abuse, and the abuser is much stronger and you don’t have anywhere to go, the best is to just numb yourself and endure. And there are many victims of abuse who were forced to do that. It’s a valid survival strategy, and I absolutely don’t judge it.

What I’m talking about is another type of conflict, where emotional abuse might be involved, and it’s between two adults. I believe emotional abuse doesn’t need to be endured (unless again, there are specific situations, e.g. someone stuck in a marriage with a narcissistic partner, and not having the means to leave. So they need to endure certain things because they can’t leave, at least not for the time being).

I believe that in situations where there is emotional abuse, and where we’re not in danger to respond, the healthiest way to deal with the conflict is to be assertive. Assertive meaning using non-violent communication skills, but still – doing something, rather than sitting with the pain and enduring it.

You said:

You are correct to note I seek safety through detachment and how that impacts how I communicate. However, the intention isn’t to avoid discomforted or ‘stop’ conflict but to ‘sit’ in it… I’m ok being uncomfortable.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but it seems you prefer to sit with the pain, but also be somewhat detached from it, right? And to me, it’s not really sitting with the pain, if we numb ourselves a little. To me it’s kind of a contradiction.. please help me understand what you mean?

I wonder if my framing, that every interaction, especially online, carries some element of projection and mirroring, is part of what’s causing both of us to feel misunderstood. It’s a lens I’ve come to trust as a kind of truth, but I recognize it may not resonate in the same way for others. Perhaps we can agree to disagree here.

I see that this is possible: that every interaction carries an element of projection and mirroring. What I was trying to convey though (and maybe this is where we disagree) is that sometimes, we need to respond, rather than sit with the pain and do nothing (and only analyze ourselves while not addressing the abuse that we might be faced with).

I do agree that we should always pause and examine ourselves, i.e. see where the pain is coming from. But if the pain is coming from the outside, then we should address it, even if our pain may be augmented by our own sensitivity.

It’s like you have a physical wound and someone is hitting you on that wound: do you ask the person the stop, or you tell to yourself: “this hurts so much because of my own wound – and I should endure it, because I should be stronger, I shouldn’t be so sensitive. I need to get stronger, I need to be less sensitive.”

Basically, that’s what I was trying to convey. I don’t know how you see this?

I also noticed a frustration, perhaps even a touch of anger… directed inward. I often feel clumsy when trying to communicate something that feels clear inside but lands differently outside. Language, especially metaphor, is how I make sense of things, but I’m learning that it doesn’t always translate well.

Yes, I think metaphors can be tricky because the same symbols can evoke a different meaning for different people, I guess. Maybe a little bit like dream interpretation (though a metaphor is more universal than a dream)?

I do notice you like to communicate via stories and metaphors… I’m sorry that I misunderstood your poem and concluded something you didn’t mean 🙁

Please don’t blame yourself. I’m glad that we could talk it through and explain what we really meant. I hope the metaphor part is not an issue any more and there are no hard feelings on your part regarding that?

If at any point you find this conversation uncomfortable, please say so. My intention isn’t to impose my beliefs on you, but to try to explain my perspective, and also to better understand where you’re coming from. I too value this conversation 🙏

Hi Peter,

I acknowledge that my invitation to pause and reflect was misunderstood as assigning equal blame. That wasn’t my aim, nor was it intended to determine who was right. This, I agree, was a failure on my part, especially given how the metaphor landed even as I found myself entangled in it. I can’t un-ring the bell, so I’ll let that be.

Please don’t think that I’m accusing you again and again for using the wrong metaphor, or a metaphor that I interpreted in a certain way. I certainly didn’t want to do that. In my previous post I was just musing about why mirror wasn’t the best metaphor, but I really don’t hold any bad feelings towards you. I’m sorry if my insisting on it made you feel judged. I do apologize if I’ve hurt your feelings by bringing it up again in my last post.

One question that hasn’t yet been addressed is: in an online forum, what is our expectation around accountability when someone has hurt us? Do we cancel them? Should they cancel themselves? I hope not.

No, no, of course not! As I said, I didn’t intend to torture you with the metaphor thing, if that’s what you’re referring to. I don’t want to cancel you, or tell you to cancel yourself.

I know you’ve shared about people being quick to cancel each other when discussing political events in the US (if I understood you well?), and how it upsets you and makes you feel sad. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you, but I assure you, I have no such inclinations and have never been thinking in those terms.

Sometimes all we can do is accept what is and give ourselves credit for expressing our truth with clarity and care. Accountability, in this context, may not mean punishment or withdrawal, but rather a willingness to stay present, to listen, to reflect, and, when possible, to repair. Still, that’s not always easy, and it’s not always mutual. But I believe there’s value in resisting the impulse to erase or condemn and instead choosing to remain in the discomfort to see what it might reveal. That is what I’ve witnessed here, for which I’m grateful.

I completely agree with you. We’re learning in this space how to stay in dialogue with each other, even when emotions run high. We’re learning how to express our feelings and what’s bothering us, while remaining open to hearing the other side. Cancelling each other is not what we should be about.

What was “cancelled” in the July/August conflict was a specific action that was abusive to others. The person wasn’t cancelled, but the hurtful behavior was.

Lastly, in your reply I noticed a strong, even triggering, reaction to “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I know it’s often used to express compassion, but I experience it as a kind of split… a way of loving that still divides. It feels like it keeps the heart slightly closed, even when the intention is to keep it open. That’s not a critique of your use of it, but an acknowledgment of how it landed in me. To be honest, I was horrified that what I wrote connected to that notion as anyone on the receiving end of that phrase is unlikely to experience it as being truly seen.

I see. Actually I never really use this phrase, because I don’t like the terms sinner and the Christian notion that we’re all sinners. But I’ve used it now to exemplify the difference between the person and their actions. But I see that it disturbed you… perhaps it’s because of its religious connotation and what it evokes in you? (I was horrified that what I wrote connected to that notion as anyone on the receiving end of that phrase is unlikely to experience it as being truly seen.)

Peter, it’s getting late here, and I’ll have to postpone replying to the rest of your post till tomorrow. But I’m glad you value our exchange, even if it’s stirring some strong emotions at times. I hope we can continue our conversation and maybe explore some of these topics in more depth.

Greetings till later!