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November 15, 2025 at 6:36 am #451819
TeeParticipantoops, error in formatting, italic in the second part isn’t intentional…
November 15, 2025 at 9:21 am #451823
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
“Wow, that was another powerful corrective exercise! It seems LGA is slowly starting to realize that her mother didn’t wish her well, on the contrary, that she was her enemy (‘She’s not my friend. She’s been my biggest enemy ever.’)”-
As I read the quote you inserted, the words LGA said during the exercise, my mind went to analyzing whether she really was an enemy and whether she was enemy by intent or impact. But then.. no reason to go there, says I, just listen to the child (LGA), believe her, don’t debate her, and that’s what a good mother does, Adult/ Mother Anita needs to do: to believe her little girl, to validate her.
And giving it a moment.. Yes, she was Enemy, of course she was, my Enemy. It never occurred to me that she was/ is narcissistic, as in having NPD traits or the whole diagnosis. I think that it was you who introduced to me- in posts to other members- the concept of covert narcissism. And it fit, but it was only yesterday that I read a lot about Covert NPD- a subtype of NPD. In then had a conversation with Copilot about some of her (the mother’s) behaviors and it all makes sense to me now. I understand the mother’s motivations and behaviors so much better now.
And in this new/ fuller understanding- in the context of my mother-myself- I peel off all guilt, all shame. It’s not mine to carry. It’s a testament to human resilience that I survived all this.. enough to get to this point of healing.
“I am touched by the conversation you had with LGA, and that you offered to be LGA’s mother, who will care for her, protect her and respect her, and let her Be.”- yes, this is my job, AA’s job. It is time for LGA to be finally, fully validated, cared for, protected and respected.
There was a lot of gaslighting the mother did to LGA, creating a lot of self-doubt, doubting reality, doubting everything. I (AA) will not continue the mother’s job. No more doubting what’s been real.
“Your mother was a seriously troubled woman, who abused you in every possible way. The way she was bathing you – by inserting her fingers into your bodily openings, including your private parts, I believe constitutes sexual abuse. She had no business getting anywhere close to your private parts, let alone inserting her fingers into you! That alone was a crime, for which she should have been taken to court and the child taken away from her.”-
I don’t think she inserted her fingers.. well, not deeply.. just some as to clean me thoroughly, the same way she inserted her fingers into my scalp so to clean it thoroughly. I still remember the feel of her fingers in my scalp, dogging forcefully. I remember thinking, why is she doing this.. I mean, it was really painful and it lasted a long time.
And yes, her behaviors do constitute sexual abuse. I remember in my late 20s, I read about sexual abuse and realized I display most or all of the symptoms. I asked her on the phone if my father sexually abused me (in my first 5-6 years when he was living there) and she said No. I didn’t realize at the time that a mother can sexually abuse her daughter in ways that are not as overt.
* Growing up, I heard a lot of sexualized talk about my father cheating on her, part of her loud fighting with him, part of her talking to her sisters and directly to me. One of those moments I remember- she told me that she told him that, being that his choice was women much younger than him, he might choose his own daughter (a baby at the time) for sex.
“I am angry that this was happening, and that there was no one to stop her. I hope this isn’t insensitive to ask, but have you ever spoken to your sister about the way your mother was bathing you? Has she experienced something similar?”-
Thank you for caring, Tee! No, I never did. It never crossed my mind. The bating as a teenager was terrible. I felt that it was wrong with every fiber of my being, but it was happening and there was no one there but me and her and never talked about it to anyone, didn’t even cross my mind to talk about it because I didn’t know-know it was wrong. I mean I didn’t have anything to compare it with, didn’t have girlfriends (I was very isolated and lonely, spent almost all my time outside school in the apartment) to talk with, so the topic never came up. I didn’t know how other girls bathe or are bathed.
As far as my sister, I remember so little of her when growing up. In the memorable scenes, such as the bathing, she is not in the scenes at all. It’s as if I was an only child. I do remember that the mother told me that my sister was much more independent than me. She might have let her wash herself.
“Yes, unfortunately 🙁 To her, you were dirty and bad and needed ‘cleansing’, whereas she (in her mind) was pure and good. In reality, she had a dirty, distorted mind (and tongue), and yet she saw you as dirty and distorted.”- She projected her shame into me and cleansed herself by proxy.
“Yes, I think she wanted to own you completely, so you would be completely under her control. A man in your life would take that dominion away from her. I think she wanted total power and control over you. She saw you as her ‘property’, and she didn’t want to lose that control over you.”- I agree, 100% true.
“Yes, she found ‘power’ by subduing someone who was weaker and more fragile than her: her children.”- True. Very true.
“Actually, it could be that she felt so powerless in her life (her inner child feeling like that), that she needed to have one person (or two people: her children) to control, so she would feel better about herself. By dominating and controlling you, she had a sense of power and control in her life. By humiliating you and telling you that you’re worthless, she had a false sense of worth, feeling that she is better than you.
“So by putting you down, she felt a little better about herself (or rather, she hated herself a little less). By subduing you, she felt a little less powerless. At least that’s my theory…”- I get the power thing and I agree. I didn’t get the self-worth part, so I asked Copilot, had a little conversation (general, not about me).
Copilot: “Yes — the pattern you described (someone feeling superior by putting others down) is strongly linked to narcissism. Narcissists often humiliate or devalue others as a way to artificially boost their own fragile sense of self-worth…. Their sense of worth depends on being ‘better than’ someone else… Example Imagine a narcissistic parent who constantly tells their child they’re ‘worthless.’ The parent feels a surge of superiority — ‘I’m better, I’m in control’ — but it’s a false sense of worth, built on comparison and humiliation rather than genuine self-respect… The “superiority” they feel is manufactured and fragile, a mask to cover inner emptiness.”-
This makes total sense. Yes, she did a whole lot of humiliating and devaluing almost everyone, mostly indirectly, by gossiping about them, and sometimes directly. it was vicious. So, it’s only now, in this reply, that I realize this point, Tee. Thank you!
“But in any case, it’s horrendous what kind of ‘mother’ she was. She was your torturer, your private Nazi, as you call her. And it is time that you free yourself from the trauma she inflicted upon you. You deserve to be free, Anita, and I’m happy that you’ve started on your healing journey. ❤️…
“I am happy I can help, and also that you feel heard and validated. You truly deserve it. You deserve healing, and I hope that slowly but surely, it is happening”-
Truly you are helping me A LOT. It took my attitude changing in the last few months- from Suspicion & Distrust (of you, and people in general) to Trusting you- a trust you well deserve- for me to open myself to your valuable input and to let it in.
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 ❤️ Anita
* I will reply to your recent post later.
November 15, 2025 at 12:11 pm #451828
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
“That’s true. Older generations used to say to their children ‘oh what are you complaining about?? I had it much worse than you!’ And that’s true, in terms of poverty, disease, lack of medical care, wars, famine etc., i.e. objective external circumstances, which made the life of many people very hard in the past.
“But a child’s suffering can be the result of abuse – deliberate physical and emotional abuse by their parents – which is I think the greatest kind of suffering. To receive abuse from those who are supposed to love you and protect you from harm. And to receive it at such an early age, when our brain and our personality is still forming. That’s an incredibly heartbreaking and traumatizing experience, with life-long consequences.”-
I remember now that I used to think that I’d much prefer to suffer a severe storm and homelessness with a loving mother (receiving her comfort, having a togetherness) would be much better than having lots of food and shelter with an abusive mother (feeling dreadfully alone).
“Still, what I meant is that Viktor Frankl’s suffering – being a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp – is a much more horrifying experience than me suffering from knee and spine issues. I am suffering, both physically and emotionally, but still, it’s completely different than his type of suffering. But I can still relate to his notion of finding meaning in life, which can help us transcend suffering, or not focus exclusively on our suffering.”-
I now remember that when I read his book as an adult, I decided to find meaning in my life and focus on it. In these forums, and in real-life, my meaning is healing. This is the meaning I wake up to every day. My greatest healing is happening these very days in my communication with you.
I still hope, as always, that you will be pain free 🙏 🍀 🤞
“I think Copilot did a great job explaining Viktor Frankl’s theory, i.e. the reasons why some people transcend suffering and others don’t… This is interesting to me: I know theories that claim that the primary human drive is pleasure, but I don’t completely agree with it. Because sometimes we are driven by higher motives, e.g. standing up for truth, even if it might get us in trouble. Or helping another person, even if it might put us in danger. So pleasure as the main human drive is a limited view, I believe.”-
I agree. And witnessing you standing up for the truth of what happened to me is making it possible for me to stand up for the truth and against her gaslighting and accusations.
“Unfortunately, some people are indeed driven by power (as we can see among politicians and narcissistic people in general), but again, not the majority.”- Not the majority.. I like that. Again, it’s the shift, for me, from general distrust (paranoid personality disorder features) to being willing to trust: trust with discernment.
“My theory is that people who experience a lot of suffering as children are more prone to searching for meaning, because they can’t find joy and fulfillment in everyday life and relationships. I think that when we’re suffering, when we’re deprived in some way, that’s when we’re more prone to ask those deep, existential questions.”-
Maybe it’s the extent of suffering, as in too much (subjective) suffering really breaks a person to the point of no return, no longer prone to ask any deep, existential questions, no longer able to look within..???
“Yes, I needed to change my attitude because the alternative would be believing that I am helpless and doomed, which leads to depression. If I chose to think negatively, I would be harming myself even further.”-
Will repeating a mantra like Empowered and Hopeful, Strong and Safe, Capable and Secure, and/ or Resilient and Promising help (to counter the Helpless and Doomed)?
“I think that’s what they call the second arrow of suffering in Buddhism: thinking negatively and making negative conclusions about life (and about one’s own future) based on the suffering that we are already experiencing. Catastrophizing, thinking that I’m doomed because of my knee (and spine) problems, would be the second arrow of suffering.”- a second arrow of suffering. I don’t remember ever reading this term.
“Thank you, Anita. Well, there were times when I withdrew from the forums when I was in a lot of pain, because I couldn’t focus on much more than my own pain. But this time I stayed, and I am glad I did. It did help me take the focus off of my problems. And I wanted to keep supporting you, so that was a strong motivation too ❤️”-
Reading this made my day! That you are giving yourself deserved credit, and.. that one of your motivations was to keep supporting me ❤️❤️❤️
“I also like Copilot’s explanation of why some people get stuck in trauma and/or become abusive themselves: loss of meaning, dehumanization, as well as personal choice”- I am still wondering about the relationship between the extent of subjective suffering and personal choice.
“I just don’t quite get what he means by “to become worthy of one’s suffering”. It almost sounds as if suffering is something noble… I don’t think it is, but it can still ennoble a person. It can still make us more empathic towards other people, for example.”-
I just asked you know whom and he says: “Viktor Frankl meant that even in unavoidable suffering, a person can choose to respond with dignity, courage, and meaning — so that their suffering is not wasted, but transformed into something that reflects inner strength and purpose….Think of suffering like a heavy weight. If you collapse under it, it crushes you. But if you lift it, even shakily, you grow stronger. “Becoming worthy” means choosing to lift it in a way that honors your humanity, rather than letting it destroy you…
“Frankl’s idea can sound like glorifying suffering, but that’s not what he meant. He was very clear: suffering itself is not noble, not something to seek out or romanticize… Frankl never suggested we should pursue pain or treat it as inherently noble. His point was that when suffering is unavoidable (like illness, loss, or imprisonment), we still have the freedom to choose our attitude. That choice can give dignity and meaning even in terrible circumstances…
“Frankl wrote: ‘It is not suffering that ennobles man, but the way he accepts it.’ So the nobility lies in the response, not in the suffering itself… Think of a storm: the storm itself isn’t noble, it’s destructive. But if someone endures it bravely, helps others through it, or learns something profound from it, their response can be noble.”
Back to your words, Tee: “I’ve just looked it up, and it’s apparently a thought that originally came from Dostoevsky, and it basically means that we shouldn’t get stuck in the victim mentality but use our suffering to become better (or stronger, more resilient) people, to learn from it. That’s what Viktor Frankl advocated too… so okay, I get it now and I agree 🙂”- I read this part after my conversation with Copilot. I think I am getting this too.. 🙂
“Oh yes, that’s one of his most famous quotes. That’s what we’ve been discussing in these past months here on the forums: about pausing and stopping (and centering ourselves in our heart) before responding. And how that contributes to non-violent communication. That’s been a lesson for me too and something I am paying more attention to now.”-
Yes, every day I repeat a mantra to this effect and recently, I added to it something that Roberta introduced in a post to another member, it’s called GRACE. I paraphrased her saying to Gather attention (before reacting), Recall intention (which in my case is to be part of the solution not add to an existing problem or create a new one), Attune (to what’s happening within me, let’s say I am holding my breath.. relax it, breathe, and attune to the other person, what is he/ she feeling), Consider action (that in my case means action toward a solution, a do-no-harm action) or not (no action at all), and lastly, Engage (act) or not and disengage.
“That’s a very good observation, Anita. Some people get drowned in trauma, in the sense that they become self-destructive, but they don’t seek to destroy others in the process. Some people on the other hand choose to subdue and dominate others, probably as a way to compensate for what they’re missing.”-
Thank you. The thought just occurred to me in regard to the extent of suffering and the ability to choose. If a suffering person finds relief in abusing another and they continue to do what brings them relief, even pleasure, then they are choosing to abuse. And why won’t they choose otherwise.. because abusing another is working for them however temporarily.. but they don’t know of any other kind of relief. So, it’s often not a rational choice but an emotional choice.. it just feels better..?
“Oh perhaps that was his blind spot, coming from a similar culture like you? Maybe he couldn’t imagine cutting contact with his own parents, and so he was a little judgmental/uncomfortable with the idea…”- sounds right. And I never thought about this connection until you brought it up right here.
“I guess you were discussing it with your sister only later, as adults? As an adult, she might have rationalized it as not a big deal, but it is a big deal and very harmful for a child.”- yes, I was at least in my 30s, maybe 40s. She did suffer a lot. I remember the mother calling her wh*** and hitting her when she was a teenager.. vicious, vicious, vicious.
“I am glad that you don’t feel alone anymore, that you feel heard and validated, knowing that indeed, what you’ve experienced was abuse, but also that there is a way out ❤️”- 🙏 ❤️ 🙏
“Ah okay, a female therapist at that time would have felt even more threatening…”- I avoided women as much as possible my whole life. Let’s say I called customer service, if I got a woman answering me I oft3en felt she was impolite or critical or what not. When I got a man to answer me, I thought he was polite and kind. I was way more suspicious of women than I was of men.
“Oh, sorry about that 🙁 I hope it will clear up quickly and you’ll be pain-free in no time. But I recommend taking it easy in the next few days, not stressing your knee too much, to give it time to heal ❤️”- Thank you, good advice, I am sure, except that I did what I did before when it hurt, the opposite of resting: I walked extra, uphill mostly.. 10.4 km in one day.. and that pain is pretty much gone now.
“Yes, that’s trauma from day 1, actually even before you were born, because if she didn’t eat properly, or had bulimia, that’s a big trauma for the fetus.
“I’m not sure if I remember well that you once mentioned she had bulimia, but if she had, while being pregnant, it shows how severely disturbed she was, causing this type of stress and contractions to her body while a baby is in her womb. But I guess she wasn’t thinking about you, but about relieving her own emotional pain. And ED, as all other addictions, serve to numb that pain…”-
Yes, you remember correctly. I remember her inducing vomiting when I was a teenager, I remember it very well. At the time I had no idea what bulimia was,, or that it had a name. I am assuming she did that when pregnant. She had no idea how it could affect a fetus. She was very, very uneducated.
Copilot: “Bulimia can limit the nutrients reaching the fetus, leading to low birth weight or growth restriction.”- I was born low weight and was the 2nd smallest child/ adolescent in school.
“Low birth weight or premature infants often have less strength, making it harder to latch onto the breast or bottle… They tire quickly during feeding, so they may stop before getting enough milk.”- my goodness, she did say that I refused breast feeding (I think she felt rejected for it) and she forced fed me (closing my nose so I had to open my mouth and then she’d shove the food in. Coming too think about it, she once expressed genuine guilt over force feeding me. The only time I could clearly see empathy in her tone of voice, empathy that I trusted in that moment of revelation.
Which brings me to this thought: she was okay with me and my sister as babies.. so it’s empathy for a baby me.. limited to that age..?
back to your words, tee: “I’m sorry to hear that, Anita. But I’ve got to say, judging from your posts here on the forums, I would never say you’ve got any troubles with your cognitive abilities. You’re very focused, very quick to reply to other people’s posts, and your posts are sharp, detailed and on point. Please know that I’m not saying this to invalidate your experience, just to say how you come across to me.”-
I am thrilled to read this!!! I think that as part of my healing, I really am becoming more intelligent.. neuroplasticity and I like it! Thing is that in-person, like last evening, I was sitting with a few people and smiling to them as they talked but I long gave up on following, I drift away. Also, repeatedly, when there is any measure of figurative language, I a totally lost, jokes included. Also visual memory. The other day I was trying to think if there are windows in the bathroom of the house where I’ve lived for 11 years. I didn’t remember any so I figure there are no windows there. I walked to the bathroom and found out that there are windows (I don’t remember now how many).
“But I understand you have difficulties which are not visible in written communication, and I’m very sorry about that.”- thank you!
“Yes, you’ve helped a lot of people here, and you’ve shared that participating on the forums has helped you a great deal too… I’m happy that our conversation is helping you and bringing you accelerated healing. And that you’re ready for more healing and more wholeness every day. Really happy to hear that! 😊 ❤️”- your help, your attention, your intelligence (I admire your intelligence, attention to detail, analytical abilities, etc.)- W.O.W, tee.. You are amazing!
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
P.S. This post, like others, is very long. It may be tiring to respond to everything. It helps me to write the above even if you choose to not respond to every item. 😊
November 16, 2025 at 4:33 am #451847
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
I’m happy to read that you’re gaining more and more clarity regarding covert narcissism, and that you won’t allow yourself to be gaslighted anymore:
And in this new/ fuller understanding- in the context of my mother-myself- I peel off all guilt, all shame. It’s not mine to carry. It’s a testament to human resilience that I survived all this.. enough to get to this point of healing.
There was a lot of gaslighting the mother did to LGA, creating a lot of self-doubt, doubting reality, doubting everything. I (AA) will not continue the mother’s job. No more doubting what’s been real.
Great! Yes, covert narcissism is very tricky – it presents very differently than grandiose narcissism. They’re not the bragging and self-aggrandizing type, which people usually associate with narcissism, but almost the opposite: the meek, shy, self-deprecating (at least in public).
At home they’re not meek and shy at all, but they nevertheless play the victim and guilt-trip those who love them (I almost wrote “their loved ones”, but you corrected me last time: it’s the people who love them – not whom they love).
yes, this is my job, AA’s job. It is time for LGA to be finally, fully validated, cared for, protected and respected.
Yes!!! So good to hear this! 🎉 (this is supposed to be confetti emoji – hope it turns out well when I post it:) ) ❤️
I don’t think she inserted her fingers.. well, not deeply.. just some as to clean me thoroughly, the same way she inserted her fingers into my scalp so to clean it thoroughly. I still remember the feel of her fingers in my scalp, dogging forcefully. I remember thinking, why is she doing this.. I mean, it was really painful and it lasted a long time.
Well, I’m not a mother, but I think the only time when it’s appropriate for a parent to touch their child’s genitals is when they’re a baby or a toddler and they’re changing their diapers or bathing them. I read somewhere that when the child can go to the toilet on their own, that’s when they can be entrusted to clean their private parts themselves. Here’s an answer that I found:
At what age should a child clean themselves? This can vary greatly from child to child. By about 5 they should be fully toilet trained including correct wiping and washing hands, many children can go by about 3-to 3.5 yrs, however they don’t usually wipe and wash properly until about 5 or 6.
So if your mother was bathing you say at the age of 7 or 8 or 10, and she was touching your genitals so as to clean them, I think that’s inappropriate. A good mother would teach the child how to do it themselves. You didn’t like it, you instinctively felt it was wrong, but as a child, you of course didn’t ask other children if that was normal. And so you endured it, although it felt uncomfortable.
She projected her shame into me and cleansed herself by proxy.
Yes, very likely!
Yes, she did a whole lot of humiliating and devaluing almost everyone, mostly indirectly, by gossiping about them, and sometimes directly. it was vicious. So, it’s only now, in this reply, that I realize this point, Tee. Thank you!
You’re welcome, Anita. Yes, that’s the modus operandi of a narcissist: put another person down, so to feel better about themselves. If your mother had the need to devalue almost everybody, that shows her narcissistic traits were pretty strong, I think.
Coming too think about it, she once expressed genuine guilt over force feeding me. The only time I could clearly see empathy in her tone of voice, empathy that I trusted in that moment of revelation.
Which brings me to this thought: she was okay with me and my sister as babies.. so it’s empathy for a baby me.. limited to that age..?
Honestly, I don’t think she had empathy for you. If she had any, she wouldn’t have initiated vomiting (bulimia) when she was pregnant with you (if that’s what happened). But in theory, it’s possible that a narcissistic parent develops jealousy and hostility for their children only later, typically when they start showing some independence and a will of their own. That can be as late as puberty, but also much earlier too.
A child at age 2-3 starts saying No a lot, they show resistance to the parent, which is a normal part of child’s development. And I can imagine that when a narcissistic parent starts hearing No, they get really angry and triggered. Maybe that’s when they start showing open hostility towards the child, I don’t know… But I can imagine that any display of independence – in the sense of not following parental commands – may be triggering for a narcissistic parent.
And yes, her behaviors do constitute sexual abuse. I remember in my late 20s, I read about sexual abuse and realized I display most or all of the symptoms. I asked her on the phone if my father sexually abused me (in my first 5-6 years when he was living there) and she said No. I didn’t realize at the time that a mother can sexually abuse her daughter in ways that are not as overt.
* Growing up, I heard a lot of sexualized talk about my father cheating on her, part of her loud fighting with him, part of her talking to her sisters and directly to me. One of those moments I remember- she told me that she told him that, being that his choice was women much younger than him, he might choose his own daughter (a baby at the time) for sex.
This is telling on more levels: first, the fact the you even dared to ask your mother if your father sexually abused you shows (I believe) that your mother was talking poorly about him all the time, and so you weren’t afraid of asking such a… well, pretty damning question.
Also, the fact that she told you she made such a horrible remark to him: that he might as well sexually assault his own daughter (baby at the time) if he is interested in young women – that’s horrendous: both what she told him, but also that she later told you about it.
You called her vicious, and the above is I’m afraid an example of that viciousness. I guess she said that to hurt him – to hurt him deeply, to cause as much pain as possible. And then she told you about it later (do you remember how old were you at the time?), as if bragging about how much she’d hurt him, making sure you know how much she hates him. At least that’s how I would interpret her words…
Narcissistic people can say really hurtful things, things that can feel like a dagger to our heart. And if it comes from our own mother, the pain is enormous. I’ve experienced hurtful remarks from my mother too, but they weren’t as hurtful as this.
I’m so sorry about it, Anita. Please give yourself a hug, and I too am giving you a virtual hug ❤️
Give LGA a hug to protect her from your mother’s malicious words. Perhaps you can imagine an umbrella or a shield that protects you from those words. Or perhaps you can imagine yourself in a protective bubble, an oasis filled with butterflies and flowers and singing birds… something soothing and innocent, as opposed to harsh and cruel that you’ve received from your mother.
I hope this wasn’t too upsetting for you… and that you can keep taking care of yourself, every day, little by little, being there for yourself and LGA as you walk this path towards healing. ❤️
Truly you are helping me A LOT. It took my attitude changing in the last few months- from Suspicion & Distrust (of you, and people in general) to Trusting you- a trust you well deserve- for me to open myself to your valuable input and to let it in.
I’m glad that you’ve become more trusting towards people, and also towards me. Your previous attitude of suspicion and distrust is understandable – since your mother was like that towards other people, and she taught you to be like that too. And also, since you’ve received mostly abuse from her, you were conditioned to expect abuse from other people too. I’m glad that this is now changing and that you’re slowly opening up ❤️ 🫶 ❤️
I’ll reply to the rest a bit later…
Have a nice Sunday! 😊
November 16, 2025 at 8:13 am #451850
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
First thing this morning, I read through your post right above and there’s so much in it, it’s so very insightful and the little research you included brought up a memory I didn’t have for the longest time. I will need a few hours to thoroughly read each part and reply, and I won’t have that time until tonight or tomorrow.
Thank you so very, very much, what an amazing post, one that feels like the most eye opening.
I hope that you are having a pleasant Sunday afternoon yourself, Amazing Tee!
🙏 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
November 16, 2025 at 12:52 pm #451856
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
Change of plans, I do have the time to read and respond.
It happens in mornings that when I see your name as having posted in this thread, I need to check to see if you’re still supportive of me, if you’re still kind to me, or if you changed and there’s criticism or approval coming at me. It’s the habit of not knowing which I will get growing up (inward), the soft, affectionate mother at times, or the Monster.
“I’m happy to read that you’re gaining more and more clarity regarding covert narcissism, and that you won’t allow yourself to be gaslighted anymore”- in progress healing, and it’s accelerating most recently, here, in communication with you, because of you 🙏 🙏 🙏
“Great! Yes, covert narcissism is very tricky – it presents very differently than grandiose narcissism. They’re not the bragging and self-aggrandizing type, which people usually associate with narcissism, but almost the opposite: the meek, shy, self-deprecating (at least in public).
“At home they’re not meek and shy at all, but they nevertheless play the victim and guilt-trip those who love them (I almost wrote “their loved ones”, but you corrected me last time: it’s the people who love them – not whom they love).”-
Yes, exactly, that’s how she was.. and to think that you corrected “loved ones” to “those who loved them” makes me smile appreciatingly 😊
“Yes!!! So good to hear this! 🎉 (this is supposed to be confetti emoji – hope it turns out well when I post it:) ) ❤️”- cute (another 😊), ❤️
“Well, I’m not a mother, but I think the only time when it’s appropriate for a parent to touch their child’s genitals is when they’re a baby or a toddler and they’re changing their diapers or bathing them. I read somewhere that when the child can go to the toilet on their own, that’s when they can be entrusted to clean their private parts themselves.”-
When I read this earlier this morning, I remember something I forgot.. I was an older child, maybe 8.. way, way after going to the bathroom on my own. Maybe 10, maybe older. I remember having to call her name so that she’d come in and wipe me. I can’t tell you the extent of the shame. But I had to, that’s what she said I had to do.
As I wrote right above “wipe me”, it’s more like wipe “it”. My body felt like an “it”, a shameful it. Everything about it was shameful.
… My goodness, Tee, I am thinking that I had one of the sickest mother-monster in the whole wide world.
The squashing of my autonomy in each and every way: feeding me, wiping me, washing me, dressing me.
I remember lying down in bed on my back, after those showers, lying flat, and she would put the pajamas over my feet, legs and then, I knew (because she told me so earlier) to raise my behind so that she could slide the pajamas up.
And the top of the pajamas- I would raise my arms so that she’d slide the top over and push it down.
I remember this one neighbor, Rosie. She was present during one of those times she dressed me, an adolescent or older (arms up and sliding the pajamas downward), and she said, she cried in an alarmed voice: “BUT THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR HER!” (her exact words, translated).
I remember this like it was yesterday. Because no one said something like that before. The mother responded, saying with a smile, contentment, satisfaction.. confidence: “She likes it!”, as she continued to dress me.
Okay, I had a heavy-duty, seriously perverted mother-monster. It was never as clear to me as it is now!!!
But like I said before, back then, a child was her mother’s property to do with it as she’d like.
I remember the same neighbor Rosie, when her sister came to visit her from the U.S., her sister, Rita, had a son, 11 years old at the time, I think (I was 13). So, Rita and son were in Rosie’s house, and she was beating her son mercilessly. You could hear the son’s muffled cries and the sounds of whatever she was using (a belt, I think) to beat him. You could hear the sounds outside the closed door.
Her sister was given the privacy to do as she wished to her son, her property- in her sister’s house. I was standing right outside the closed door with Rosie and others. I was horrified. Everyone waited quietly until Monster-Rita was finished beating her son, and opened the door. And when it was opened (I don’t remember this part), but I am sure nothing was said or done about any of it.
Taking a moment to calm down from this memory.
“Here’s an answer that I found: ‘At what age should a child clean themselves? This can vary greatly from child to child. By about 5 they should be fully toilet trained including correct wiping and washing hands, many children can go by about 3-to 3.5 yrs, however they don’t usually wipe and wash properly until about 5 or 6.'”-
I don’t remember when she stopped. I remember now, like it was yesterday, the distance in time between calling her name and her coming in. So weird, thinking of it now, but back then.. I just followed her instructions, didn’t know how it’s supposed to be.
But S.H.A.M.E was intense then and enduring lifetime.
“So if your mother was bathing you say at the age of 7 or 8 or 10, and she was touching your genitals so as to clean them, I think that’s inappropriate. A good mother would teach the child how to do it themselves. You didn’t like it, you instinctively felt it was wrong, but as a child, you of course didn’t ask other children if that was normal. And so you endured it, although it felt uncomfortable.”-
And I remember the distance in time between calling her name and her entering the bathroom. I hid parts of myself best I could. I think I unintentionally uttered sounds of distress, but she didn’t hear or care to hear or see my obvious distress.
Funny, that land is called “Holy Land”.. nothing holy in my experience growing up (inward).
I am feeling a bit sick right now, tears in my eyes. It’s like all this time, ALL THIS TIME, I didn’t see the plain truth: that she was that sick, and that society back then was that sick.
A moment.
“You’re welcome, Anita. Yes, that’s the modus operandi of a narcissist: put another person down, so to feel better about themselves. If your mother had the need to devalue almost everybody, that shows her narcissistic traits were pretty strong, I think.”- Yes, 100% Covert Narcissist, no doubt in my mind!
“Honestly, I don’t think she had empathy for you. If she had any, she wouldn’t have initiated vomiting (bulimia) when she was pregnant with you (if that’s what happened). But in theory, it’s possible that a narcissistic parent develops jealousy and hostility for their children only later, typically when they start showing some independence and a will of their own. That can be as late as puberty, but also much earlier too.”-
Yes, to the second part. As to the first, I recently came across the term “Selected Empathy” when it comes to Narcissists. The mother had empathy for hungry cats.. anything that was hungry, or could be hungry.
“A child at age 2-3 starts saying No a lot, they show resistance to the parent, which is a normal part of child’s development. And I can imagine that when a narcissistic parent starts hearing No, they get really angry and triggered. Maybe that’s when they start showing open hostility towards the child, I don’t know… But I can imagine that any display of independence – in the sense of not following parental commands – may be triggering for a narcissistic parent.”-
You are 100% correct in regard to the mother, 100%.
“This is telling on more levels: first, the fact the you even dared to ask your mother if your father sexually abused you shows (I believe) that your mother was talking poorly about him all the time, and so you weren’t afraid of asking such a… well, pretty damning question.”- Oh yes, of course, she talked negatively about him all along.
“Also, the fact that she told you she made such a horrible remark to him: that he might as well sexually assault his own daughter (baby at the time) if he is interested in young women – that’s horrendous: both what she told him, but also that she later told you about it.
“You called her vicious, and the above is I’m afraid an example of that viciousness. I guess she said that to hurt him – to hurt him deeply, to cause as much pain as possible. And then she told you about it later (do you remember how old were you at the time?), as if bragging about how much she’d hurt him, making sure you know how much she hates him. At least that’s how I would interpret her words..”-
I never thought about her hurting him. The story she told me all along was that he hurt her. I don’t remember feeling empathy for him, only for her. Just now, I had a moment of empathy for him.
As far as how old I was when she told me that he might desire baby Anita for sex.. Five, six.. earlier..? whenever the thought occurred to her. There was no age-appropriate consideration on her part, no such thing.
“Narcissistic people can say really hurtful things, things that can feel like a dagger to our heart. And if it comes from our own mother, the pain is enormous. I’ve experienced hurtful remarks from my mother too, but they weren’t as hurtful as this.”-
Like daggers indeed. I am sorry you experienced this to any extent 😢
“I’m so sorry about it, Anita. Please give yourself a hug, and I too am giving you a virtual hug ❤️”- than you, Tee. You are the best!!! Virtual hug back to you ❤️
“Give LGA a hug to protect her from your mother’s malicious words. Perhaps you can imagine an umbrella or a shield that protects you from those words. Or perhaps you can imagine yourself in a protective bubble, an oasis filled with butterflies and flowers and singing birds… something soothing and innocent, as opposed to harsh and cruel that you’ve received from your mother.
“I hope this wasn’t too upsetting for you.. and that you can keep taking care of yourself, every day, little by little, being there for yourself and LGA as you walk this path towards healing. ❤️”-
Yes, this was upsetting, but I was not along in it. There’s someone listening to me, someone understanding, attending, validating- and this makes ALL the difference 🙏 🙏 🙏
“I’m glad that you’ve become more trusting towards people, and also towards me. Your previous attitude of suspicion and distrust is understandable – since your mother was like that towards other people, and she taught you to be like that too. And also, since you’ve received mostly abuse from her, you were conditioned to expect abuse from other people too. I’m glad that this is now changing and that you’re slowly opening up ❤️ 🫶 ❤️”-
Yes, yes, yes, my attitude is changing (tears in my eyes)
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ Anita
November 16, 2025 at 1:16 pm #451858
anitaParticipant* As I read my above post, as I read: “‘I’m so sorry about it, Anita. Please give yourself a hug, and I too am giving you a virtual hug ❤️’- than you, Tee.”-
Obviously there’s something missing here before the “than you”. I must have accidently deleted something there, or something like that (don’t remember).
But my point, I was afraid that this mistake will lead to condemnation on your part, simply because that was what I received from the mother- no mistake and no no-mistake was unpunished.
Your support is so meaningful to me, so precious, Tee, I would never want to lose it.
Having this accelerated healing in mind is why I didn’t go out yet. I am letting my experience take its rightful space in my body and mind, breathe.
It’s like a meeting of Anita and Little Girl Anita- LGA so lost, so removed, suppressed, denied.. bringing her back.
Welcome back LGA. You are safe here, with me. Sh..
Talk to me LGA.
LGA: I am glad that Tee gave you a virtual hug, Ima, and that you can hug me too.
I know now that Monster was no Ima.
So, her shaming.. her guilt-tripping.. that has no value. Not at all. it’s a monster’s shaming, not a mother’s shaming.
It was a monster all along.
Really a monster. I knew it all along.
I am okay now. I know who my Ima is, it’s Ima Anita.
AA: Thank you, LGA for trusting me. yes, I am your Ima, Ima Anita (tears, hugging LGA)
.. Thank you, Tee!
November 16, 2025 at 8:15 pm #451868
anitaParticipantThis is the first time above, that I ever referred to myself as “Ima Anita”, meaning, Mother-Anita, and it came about spontaneously that I said it.. Ima Anita.
I so want to leave behind the S.H.A.M.E and I can!
To leave behind all that unbearable, deep-reaching, stinging, burning.. excruciating shame.
It was too scary to fully acknowledge it back then. But now, I see it like it is.. When she said to me, these exact words: “I will MURDER you” Tell me that’s a MOTHER..?
Actually, MOTHER and MURDER are two 6-letter M words.. Am I counting it right?
Yes, I just recounted So, yes, 2 synonyms- for me. (A moment)
It’s something else.. to recover- not from a flawed, imperfect mother- but from a.. Murderous Mother. (MM..?)
The trauma is caught in my muscles, the tics, every minute, every day.
I so want to heal/ recover from this. This is why I am trying to make it as clear as possible this Sun night, typing as I think, as I feel: whatever comes to mind (red wine involved):
LGA (back then): Help me! Help me! Someone help me!!! S O M E O N E H.E.L.P me.. Help me..?
(Silence) H E L P (Silence)
The body/ mind shrinks, as small as possible.. Less of me = Less to be hurt.
Less of me to ne alive = less of me to die.
Going through life absently.. no me= nothing to be Hurt- dissociation, fragmentation.
Here, tonight, I am re-associating, re-integrating.
It’s not an intellectual, rational process alone.
It’s.. (whatever comes to mind)-
I want to rid myself of monster’s black eyes and mean smile.. 👺 🖤
There was no Mother in Monster 🖤, two M words.
No shame belongs to me. Was a lie.
A monster’s lie.
My body, right now, not shameful.
Shame back to her 🖤, not mine!
Body okay, stomach, intestines, all else.. just a body, a human body, nothing unique to me… Just an animal-human body, nothing I personally chose.. something I was born into.
Tired, tired of SHAME.
No more shame 4 me.
November 17, 2025 at 7:36 am #451873
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
* As I read my above post, as I read: “‘I’m so sorry about it, Anita. Please give yourself a hug, and I too am giving you a virtual hug ❤️’- than you, Tee.”-
Obviously there’s something missing here before the “than you”. I must have accidently deleted something there, or something like that (don’t remember).
But my point, I was afraid that this mistake will lead to condemnation on your part, simply because that was what I received from the mother- no mistake and no no-mistake was unpunished.
I think you wanted to write “thank you, Tee”. You just misspelled 🙂 Not a big deal at all. But I understand that you get very anxious if you think you made some mistake which you might be judged or punished for, the same way your mother would punish you. And I can assure you I would do no such thing.
I think in those moments – when you start panicking – you might want to soothe LGA (because it’s her who is panicking) and tell her that you love her and that she did nothing wrong. And even if she made a mistake, it’s okay to make mistakes (we’re humans, we make mistakes), and that you love her nevertheless.
So I think self-soothing – being Ima Anita to LGA – might help you in situations like this ❤️
My goodness, Tee, I am thinking that I had one of the sickest mother-monster in the whole wide world.
Okay, I had a heavy-duty, seriously perverted mother-monster. It was never as clear to me as it is now!!!
Unfortunately yes, your mother was pretty disturbed, with elements of perversion in her behavior. I don’t think she was one of the sickest mothers in the world (because unfortunately there are much worse examples of what parents are able to do to their children).
However, what was perhaps even more insidious (and therefore, more harmful) is that she e.g. hasn’t outright sexually abused you, but she did invade your body in inappropriate ways. But you didn’t know, or weren’t sure that you were abused.
Also, she made you call for her to wipe you after going to the toilette, which was very humiliating for you, but you didn’t know it wasn’t normal. So you obeyed.
Another one is that she conditioned you to accept the bizarre ritual (because that’s what it seems to me) of putting on your pajamas after bathing, while you were lying down on the bed, which lasted into your puberty and adolescence as well. When the neighbor (Rosie) exclaimed that this was wrong and isn’t good for your psychological development, your mother responded, with a satisfied expression on her face, that you liked it.
You were very scared to contradict her, and so you didn’t say anything to the neighbor. You didn’t even protest much to your mother, just moaned a little:
I think I unintentionally uttered sounds of distress, but she didn’t hear or care to hear or see my obvious distress.
Your body showed signs of protest and revolt in the form of tics, when e.g. your head would involuntarily shake from left to right, as if saying NO. But she didn’t notice even that – even the most obvious signs of your distress.
Because she didn’t want to notice it – your well-being wasn’t important to her. Her own “feeling good” was what was important to her, and unfortunately she felt good when humiliating you and torturing you.
Unfortunately, she was a very sick person, Anita, who should have received psychiatric treatment. She was definitely unfit to be a mother, but she never came to the attention of the authorities, because as you said, people didn’t want to meddle in other people’s child rearing habits.
That neighbor, Rosie, saw that something was wrong, and challenged her that one time, but your mother nonchalantly replied that you liked it. And that was it – case closed, no questions asked.
But this is what’s important: even though you didn’t visibly object to her, your body was objecting all the time, it was yelling and screaming NO!
You didn’t want any of that treatment, you hated it, but you didn’t dare to express it. You were afraid of her rage, or of her killing herself and then you blaming yourself for it (because she made you believe that if she kills herself, it will be your fault).
You were in an impossible situation, Anita, because you couldn’t run, even if you wanted it with every fiber of your being (or at least with a part of your being – because another part wanted to stay with her and save her). You felt trapped, but couldn’t escape. And as you said it yourself, that’s probably the cause of your tics (The trauma is caught in my muscles, the tics, every minute, every day.).
I think a large part of your healing will be finding a way to express your NO, visibly, audibly, in a series of corrective exercises. But don’t rush with it. Take it easy, gently. You’re now building the foundations: self-care, being a good mother (Ima) to yourself, lots of self-compassion, but also clarity in how you see your mother. You’re not feeling pity for her anymore, but there’s a clear wish to protect yourself from her, right?
In the past, you felt helpless: even if you weren’t physically helpless, you were psychologically “bound”, so to speak, constricted by your fear of causing her harm and losing her, and also for fear of being seen as a bad, ungrateful daughter. You felt helpless because she conditioned you to feel helpless, and you believed her.
But now it’s time to take a stand for yourself, to free yourself from being at her disposal, both physically and mentally. As you used to say: she was “helping” herself to you – whatever she needed, she took. But now it’s time to stop that. She cannot take whatever she wants from you: you now have the will and determination (and mental clarity) to say NO. To say STOP.
And I agree: There was no Mother in Monster 🖤, two M words.
She might have been someone who provided food and shelter (and toys) for you, and who sent you to school. But other than that, she was your torturer – someone who absolutely didn’t care about your needs and what’s good for you, but only about satisfying her own sick urges, I’m afraid.
I’m sorry, Anita, that you had to go through such an ordeal as a child and youth. She did try to enslave you and take away your agency completely. And to be honest, now knowing all this, I’m a bit surprised that you even managed to leave her and move far away from her, to the other part of the world. And alone, right? It means you still had some agency left in you… If you’d care to share more about how that came about, please do so (but only if it’s not uncomfortable to talk about).
Yes, this was upsetting, but I was not alone in it. There’s someone listening to me, someone understanding, attending, validating- and this makes ALL the difference 🙏 🙏 🙏
I’m glad that I can be there to support you and validate your experience, and help you start extracting yourself from her grip. Slowly, gradually, gently, but still, doing it, slowly walking towards freedom. ❤️
You can do it, Anita, I am rooting for you!!
❤️ 🫶 ❤️
November 17, 2025 at 12:43 pm #451878
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
Thank you so much for another.. beautifully intelligent, incredibly insightful message, I appreciate it a whole lot. I read it first thing in the morning but felt too anxious then and still now in regard to my work here, in this accelerated rate.
“But don’t rush with it”, you advised right above.. so, I won’t. I think I’ll reply in the evening or by tomorrow.
As to “I’m a bit surprised that you even managed to leave her and move far away from her, to the other part of the world. And alone, right? It means you still had some agency left in you… If you’d care to share more about how that came about, please do so (but only if it’s not uncomfortable to talk about).”-
I feel comfortable sharing with you, Tee ❤️
So, I suppose I had enough agency to work for 9 months or so, part time, buy an airline ticket, place myself on a plane and fly to a new land. The idea to fly to the U.S. came following me watching the movie The Never Ending Story (1984) about a boy warrior who went on a mission to save the land of Fantasia from the evil power of The Nothing. He went to the mission by himself, with no weapons, no guarantees and had to overcome many things on his way, like his horse succumbing to despair and drowning in The Swamp of Sadness.. and going through gates that can see into his heart.
The movie inspired me more than I can say, I watched it many times.
People often comment about me being courageous in regard to flying to the U.S. on my own and without much money and having no job or anything planned, but my answer to that this compliment is undeserved. It was way, way easier to fly away than to stay. It was simply, or complicatedly, so very painful to be in her company. The U.S was EASY in comparison. I did what was much, much easier.
Oh, and in regard to guilt, the mother always wanted to live in the U.S., so in my mind, I was going to make it happen for her.. somehow.. Somehow.
But not much agency followed the flight itself and dysfunction was evident from the very beginning of the troubled journey. Following a couple of months of as-happy-as-I-ever-was (NYC).. a dream-come-true.. things happened and I sunk into The Swamp of Sadness and Despair.
More later.
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ Anita
Anita
November 17, 2025 at 12:46 pm #451879
anitaParticipantOnly one of me 😳
November 17, 2025 at 5:38 pm #451883
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
About The Never Ending Story:
Gmork is an evil-looking wolf-like, a servant of The Nothing, tasked with hunting down Atreyu (the child warrior) to stop him from saving Fantasia.
Gmork’s key lines: “Fantasia has no boundaries. Don’t you know anything about Fantasia? It’s the world of human fantasy. Every part, every creature of it, is a piece of the dreams and hopes of mankind. Therefore, it has no boundaries.”
On why Fantasia is dying: “Because people have begun to lose their hopes and forget their dreams. So the Nothing grows stronger.”
On what the Nothing Is: “It’s the emptiness that’s left. It’s like a despair, destroying this world. And I have been trying to help it.”
In my life, my personal Gmork has been you know who.
Fantasia is my healing, and Atreyu is me trying to get Gmork off of me.
So, I flew to the U.S., stopped in London (a no cost stop) on my way to San Francisco, took the underground, came across an American in the train, he invited me for dinner in London- a city he frequented for business, importing some electrical merchandise to the U.S. (not on a large scale), went for dinner, he invited me to visit him in NYC after my visit to San Francisco.
Next, I flew to SF as scheduled, took the bus to Fresno, CA (Rosie’s other sister lived there and whom I enjoyed spending time with on their visits to Rosie), had a good time there, my first sushi experience, continued on a bus to Los Angeles, visited Disneyland, Knott’s Berry Farm and Universal Studios, had THE TIME OF MY LIFE !!! and then flew to NYC, seen Christmas for the first time in my life, and on a large NYC scale.
Next, the American small scale businessman who lived in downtown Manhattan, offered to marry me.. he said: “Marry me so that you can get a green card” And.. I assume he liked me (He was 20 years older and morbidly obese, I was in my early 20s and I suppose not unattractive.. and my tics were far less than they used to be, at that point).
I agreed and I told him about the mother and he offered- his idea, his generous offer- to fly her over to NYC .. it was the mother’s dream to be in the U.S. for the first time and witness luxury (Manhattan) she always dreamed about.
So, even though I felt wrong to marry for self-interest, I did. I married him in city hall- and later in a private party- in the presence of his mother and mine.. and for me, all hell broke loose when it all happened because- just being in her company was a torture, no matter how she behaved and feeling like a fake troubled me.. faking a wedding party.
I took her to Florida and back and after 3 weeks or so, suffering the whole time simply because her present tortured me no matter how she behaved, even at her “best”.. And then she flew back.
During her visit, and following her departure all the magic I felt in NYC was gone and I fell into despair.
I left NYC and flew to New Orleans.. for no particular reason other than hoping for a relief. An annulment followed some time later. After 5 months in New Orleans where I worked as a waitress, I flew back to .. Gmork, for 3 months.. And then back to NYC for a few days, met him, and from there to Las Vegas. I was 26 at the time.
I don’t know how you feel about my story right above. I worry there’ll be judgment..?
As to your recent post:
“I think you wanted to write ‘thank you, Tee’. You just misspelled 🙂 Not a big deal at all. But I understand that you get very anxious if you think you made some mistake which you might be judged or punished for, the same way your mother would punish you. And I can assure you I would do no such thing.”-
Thank you. It surprised me that it didn’t occur to me that it was a “thank you”. Best I figure, I saw “than you” as saying “better than you”, which would offensive. But, yes, no doubt it was a “thank you”.
“I think in those moments – when you start panicking – you might want to soothe LGA (because it’s her who is panicking) and tell her that you love her and that she did nothing wrong. And even if she made a mistake, it’s okay to make mistakes (we’re humans, we make mistakes), and that you love her nevertheless.”-
You still feel this way after my NYC story..?
“So I think self-soothing – being Ima Anita to LGA – might help you in situations like this ❤️”-
This reminds me, the other day, in a car in a sharp turn on the road, a big truck appeared and I felt a head-on collision was in the making, and the scream IMA came out of my mouth. And later I thought of telling you about it.
“Unfortunately yes, your mother was pretty disturbed, with elements of perversion in her behavior. I don’t think she was one of the sickest mothers in the world (because unfortunately there are much worse examples of what parents are able to do to their children).”- that made me feel better.. for me, not for the others who had- have it worse.
“However, what was perhaps even more insidious (and therefore, more harmful) is that she e.g. hasn’t outright sexually abused you, but she did invade your body in inappropriate ways. But you didn’t know, or weren’t sure that you were abused.
“Also, she made you call for her to wipe you after going to the toilette, which was very humiliating for you, but you didn’t know it wasn’t normal. So you obeyed.
“Another one is that she conditioned you to accept the bizarre ritual (because that’s what it seems to me) of putting on your pajamas after bathing, while you were lying down on the bed, which lasted into your puberty and adolescence as well. When the neighbor (Rosie) exclaimed that this was wrong and isn’t good for your psychological development, your mother responded, with a satisfied expression on her face, that you liked it.
“You were very scared to contradict her, and so you didn’t say anything to the neighbor. You didn’t even protest much to your mother, just moaned a little”-
Truthfully, Tee- it was horrible, the whole thing.
About agency, I was very young 20 something, before the U.S., I stopped at a market and bought red wine (hated the taste but needed relief from the-horrible. Drank it before she got “home” (the chamber of horrors) and when she showed up, I took her hands in mine and danced with her (never such a thing before), and I FELT dancing that I was the Man and she was Woman, a distinct feeling. And I clearly remember that she submissively followed my lead. At that moment, I was man, she was woman.
Which is crazy making because her aggression all along could have been neutralized simply by me taking the lead? Same as when she ran to hit me for the last time, and I took her hands in mine and extended equal force.. she withdrew.
Why didn’t I take the lead earlier on.. And after, why was I so intimidated by a person so easily subdued..???
“Your body showed signs of protest and revolt in the form of tics, when e.g. your head would involuntarily shake from left to right, as if saying NO. But she didn’t notice even that – even the most obvious signs of your distress.
“Because she didn’t want to notice it – your well-being wasn’t important to her. Her own ‘feeling good’ was what was important to her, and unfortunately she felt good when humiliating you and torturing you.
“Unfortunately, she was a very sick person, Anita, who should have received psychiatric treatment. She was definitely unfit to be a mother, but she never came to the attention of the authorities, because as you said, people didn’t want to meddle in other people’s child rearing habits.
“That neighbor, Rosie, saw that something was wrong, and challenged her that one time, but your mother nonchalantly replied that you liked it. And that was it – case closed, no questions asked.”-
When she said “she likes it”, it sounds- feels like a rapist saying post rape: “But she liked it”
“But this is what’s important: even though you didn’t visibly object to her, your body was objecting all the time, it was yelling and screaming NO!”-
Yes, it did. It still does.
“You didn’t want any of that treatment, you hated it, but you didn’t dare to express it. You were afraid of her rage, or of her killing herself and then you blaming yourself for it (because she made you believe that if she kills herself, it will be your fault).”- Yes, exactly.
“You were in an impossible situation, Anita, because you couldn’t run, even if you wanted it with every fiber of your being (or at least with a part of your being – because another part wanted to stay with her and save her). You felt trapped, but couldn’t escape. And as you said it yourself, that’s probably the cause of your tics (The trauma is caught in my muscles, the tics, every minute, every day.).”-
Again, it’s like you were there!
“I think a large part of your healing will be finding a way to express your NO, visibly, audibly, in a series of corrective exercises. But don’t rush with it. Take it easy, gently. You’re now building the foundations: self-care, being a good mother (Ima) to yourself, lots of self-compassion, but also clarity in how you see your mother. You’re not feeling pity for her anymore, but there’s a clear wish to protect yourself from her, right?”-
Yes, great progress in not feeling pity/ empathy.. that love for her. As to wishing to protect myself from her.. It’s that she/ Gmork reached deep within my skin long ago, and the body-mind still needs to peel that infection off of me.
“In the past, you felt helpless: even if you weren’t physically helpless, you were psychologically ‘bound’, so to speak, constricted by your fear of causing her harm and losing her, and also for fear of being seen as a bad, ungrateful daughter. You felt helpless because she conditioned you to feel helpless, and you believed her.
“But now it’s time to take a stand for yourself, to free yourself from being at her disposal, both physically and mentally. As you used to say: she was ‘helping’ herself to you – whatever she needed, she took. But now it’s time to stop that. She cannot take whatever she wants from you: you now have the will and determination (and mental clarity) to say NO. To say STOP.”-
She was a rapist.
“And I agree: There was no Mother in Monster 🖤, two M words.
“She might have been someone who provided food and shelter (and toys) for you, and who sent you to school. But other than that, she was your torturer – someone who absolutely didn’t care about your needs and what’s good for you, but only about satisfying her own sick urges, I’m afraid.
“I’m sorry, Anita, that you had to go through such an ordeal as a child and youth. She did try to enslave you and take away your agency completely.”-
Yes.
“I’m glad that I can be there to support you and validate your experience, and help you start extracting yourself from her grip. Slowly, gradually, gently, but still, doing it, slowly walking towards freedom. ❤️ You can do it, Anita, I am rooting for you!!”-
Although it might happen, I never want to lose your support, Tee. This is real.
I want to remove her from under my skin, that unrelenting fungus.
I am experiencing these very days a purging (is that the word?), a removing of Gmork from the depths of my soul- because of you!!! (too emotional to retrieve emojis).
It’s amazing, a whole lifetime of unnecessary suffering.
.. I keep thinking there’s something I forgot about this whole nightmare, this excruciatingly lonely nightmare (now past.. right?)
What am I not remembering?
Gmork’s eyes, Gmork’s viciousness, that cruel growl.. Those dark, soulless eyes.
No, no more love for cruel, no more reaching out to cruel.
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ to you, Tee.. to you!
Anita
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