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Alienation or abandonment looking for insight

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  • #440702
    beni
    Participant

    Beloved community,

    I wonder if someone want’s to share his insight to the following:

    I noticed that when I meet someone with the glassy alienated look in their eyes.
    It affects me very much.

    The day it happens I don’t really get it.
    The next day first I’m depressed half the day, then angry. I want to eat. I have stomach pain. It’s hard to leave the house do anything which could expose me to more mental stress. It’s hard to move my body. It’s hard to speak even to myself.

    I feel alienated too and I worry big for the person even if I don’t know her.

    It takes around 2 days to feel trough it.

    I wonder what this needs from me, how I can protect me and prepare me for life.

    I think an alienated child needs to be held so I hold myself as good as I can with my arms and spirit. I massage my belly.

    Maybe there is a different word for it. Maybe a pali or sankrit word?

    #440734
    anita
    Participant

    Dear beni: I will reply to you Mon morning (it’s Sun eve here)

    anita

    #440740
    Jana đŸȘ·
    Participant

    Hello Beni,

    I myself have big and very dark brown eyes. Many people have pointed out that my eyes “glisten” and when I don’t smile, some people think I am sad. But I am perfectly fine. My eyes only appear to be sad to some people.

    That’s why you don’t have to worry about the person with such a look. You mentioned: “I feel alienated too and I worry big for the person even if I don’t know her.” Remember that in 95% it is only your projection. It is only what you think, but it is very unlikely that the person is alienated or in troubles.

    But of course, there are exceptions. People are worried, stressed, troubled and their emotions can be seen in their eyes. But we need to learn to not let others’ emotions, especially negative emotions, control us.

    Can you be more specific about a specific encounter with a person with this look in their eyes? Do these poeple with this look in their eyes remind you of somebody who might hurt you in the past and that might be the reason you have such a strong reaction after seeing them?

    ☀ đŸȘ·

    #440741
    beni
    Participant

    Hey Jana,

    Thanks for your reply!

    I think I know what you mean. When you tell about your eyes. Some people’s eyes don’t tell so much their small and sad. What I mean is the look when the personality disappears. Mediators can have it but also when you dissociate from yourself. You stare, you daydream because the pain is too much. I have it during work. I black out then my brain does not work anymore. It makes my life difficult.

    It’s interesting you mention the eye color. One person had darker eyes the others had blue eyes.

    Okay, maybe you can double check if I’m projecting. I make it up on the following.
    The child I saw having it was the firstborn and it would hit his little brother.
    The Woman I spent time, we were our self’s and during the goodbye she froze and had the look. She didn’t move for 7 sec. I went back and gave her another hug.
    The woman yesterday. I didn’t know her. She was from a war country. I saw that she was very disconnected. My friend noticed it too.

    So I’m pretty sure about my experience. How strong my body is reacting and that he does it every time. Also I don’t know at first why he does it and it takes me some hours or days to know. And I connect the dots.

    I think when I see someone having the same pain I feel understood on a deep level and it allows me to feel this pain too. Also it makes me quite scared to be out in the world. Cause I could loose myself.

    So if someone is doing similar work in his life there is too more things I figured out:

    It helps to do the belly breath.
    I think the pain needs to to be let in to the heart. So I try to have it moving up from the belly to the heart.
    I think gestalt therapy might help. I will try to talk to the peoples eyes (their like burned into my memory and heart). And say things like:

    You are really hurt I understand that because I carry a similar pain. I care much for you and I wish I could help you more than just with my understanding. I have tears in the eyes when I think how much you suffer.
    I want you to understand that in some situations we life in a dream because in the past it was too painful to be ourselves. So we created a shell we can life in. It allows you and me to hurt people to act out of ill-will and also it allows us to hurt and betray ourselves and the people we care. We would have gone insane without the protection of the shell. There was nothing else we could do, there was no one who could hold us safely.
    Now we have grown up and there is someone! It’s us! We need to learn to let us back into our hearts so we can hold ourselves and heal.

    #440742
    Jana đŸȘ·
    Participant

    Hello Beni again,

    Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s very interesting for me because I have never noticed this in people’s eyes.

    I am sure that other members of tinybuddha will help you more when they get online. They may have more experiences with this than me.

    I also find your meditation technigue useful. Do you do any other calming activities? What work do you do?

    ☀ đŸȘ·

    #440748
    beni
    Participant

    Hey Jana,

    I gave up on work for the moment. I gave up on family and people I have conditioning with for now. (I can have some contact on the phone) I seek to be by myself as much as I can feel the pain and I accept anxiety as a guide who tells me to slow down rather than in the past push trough. Cause I can not differentiate myself from others well. And i will mask / suppress myself.
    Self love helps, to tell myself I love me. Giving myself hugs. Sauna is good when I suppress something. I try to hug myself till I can move again when feeling alienated. And I always looked for someone to do it with but it seems i have to go trough it alone. For now it takes very long and I don’t see how it can work in daily live. Also suppressing abandonment will wake up self harm. That’s why I let it affect me so much. I rather give it all the space it can get till I’m ready to face it.

    Can you connect with that? Have you experienced alienation?

     

    #440751
    anita
    Participant
    Dear beni:
    Thank you for sharing these deeply introspective and heartfelt posts on this tread. You expressed a very strong empathetic reaction to seeing people who appear alienated or dissociated. You seem to connect with their pain on a very deep level, which is overwhelming. Your emotions surface gradually, starting with depression and transitioning to anger. The emotional turmoil manifests physically, making it hard for you to function normally. This shows the strong mind-body connection in your very strong empathetic response.
    You use self-soothing techniques like holding yourself and massaging your belly to provide comfort. This is a healthy and nurturing response to your feelings of alienation and distress. Engaging in belly breathing can help calm your nervous system and reduce stress. It’s a practical way to manage your physical symptoms.
    I followed your posts, beni, since your first, on June 18, 2023. In your first thread you shared: “I think when I see someone having the same pain I feel understood on a deep level and it allows me to feel this pain too. Also it makes me quite scared to be out in the world. Cause I could lose myself“, and “I see her now and in sometimes I see myself… I belief she couldn’t give me space, maybe I was part of meeting her needs. Like when you ask “how are you” but actually you create space to tell how you feel“, as well as:
    “I’m often stuck in knowing what I want but not how and then I just start going to figure it out. Often doing it feels like a burden and there is little joy. I talk about stuff which is fun like Painting, Gardening“, and
    “It feels like I see the start and the end but no in between. The in-between is scary. It’s restless”.
    On  Nov 23 this year you shared: “I could not differentiate myself from others“, and today, in your post an hour ago: “I can not differentiate myself from others well. And i will mask / suppress myself.
    What I see in these quotes and in the totality of what you shared in your three threads is a person whose identity has been fused  with his mother’s identity, an enmeshment that extends to other people as well. This lack of differentiation, while it allows you to feel a lot (too much) empathy for others, it is accompanied with confusion, indecisiveness, lack of motivation, difficulties in asserting independence and in developing a distinct sense of self.
    If, like it happened to me,  you internalized your mother’s expectations, emotions, and behaviors, it creates significant internal conflict and confusion about your own desires and needs. Feeling responsible for your mother’s emotions, the constant burden of managing external emotions and expectations (your mother’s, others’) understandably drain the intrinsic motivation needed to find joy in activities, even those that are personally meaningful to you.
    Working with a therapist, especially one experienced in family dynamics and enmeshment, can help you develop a stronger sense of self and healthier boundaries.  Practices like journaling can help you further explore your own thoughts and feelings independently of your mother’s influence. Maintaining your current personal boundaries can help you build confidence in your own agency and reduce the emotional burden of managing others’ feelings.
    More about enmeshment and my personal experience of having been enmeshed with my mother for decades in my next post.
    anita
    #440756
    anita
    Participant

    Dear beni:

    I am sorry for the crowded format of my previous post. I will share about my Fused Identity Enmeshment Story in the simplest way possible:

    Like any and every baby and young child, I too was enmeshed with my mother (primary caretaker). My identity and her identity were one (in my baby’s/ young child’s not yet done-developing brain). A separate identity on my part was supposed to develop with time and space.

    My mother regularly and frequently  expressed a lot of intense emotions to me (and to others, in my presence): intense hurt, shame, RAGE, suicide ideation, suicide and homicidal threats, all in very emotional, often loud voice, very emotional facial expressions,  with dramatic physical gestures, lots of crying. Her undisciplined, over-emotionality dominated all of the space in my mind and heart.

    It was almost entirely just me and her living in  tiny apartment for the first 6 years of my life, before my sister was born. (My father was largely absent). And I spent all of my time outside of school, from 6 years-old and onward, inside the apartment. So, there were no significant social influences in my life growing up to counteract, or balance my mother’s influence on me.

    For a child’s separate identity to emerge and develop, there must be space for it. My mother didn’t allow any space for me. So, no separate identity for me: I didn’t know what I felt or what I was supposed to feel. I remember watching a movie with her in the small bedroom: I watched her face looking for her emotions to register on her face, so to have a clue as to what I was supposed to feel. I was indecisive about everything, couldn’t figure ot my wants and preferences. I lived most of my adult life like a ship lost at sea, letting outside forces (the wind above, the water currents below) decide for me where I go and what I do.

    The way a child knows what the mother feels is through empathy. Because she expressed so much emotional pain, my healthy empathy quickly turned into a source of great pain. It was no longer something healthy: it was an emotional burden that caried on to my experiences with other people. To care for others meant to be in pain. This empathy-gone-wrong has been a great hindrance in my prospects of connecting with others for help and support.

    Things are changing for the better as a result of my emotional healing journey. I will be glad to share more with you if you relate to what I shared so far, and if you are interested in further Commnication with me.

    anita

    #440761
    beni
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I’m touched that you follow my story. I feel loved. Thank you for sharing your story. I feel sad to hear your suffering. I want to tell you about some success. I had last month.

    I was deluded in romantic love When I lived it in reality my mind collapsed (it’s all true) my mind got more clear and now things seem to be changing. My psychologist we mainly do gestalt psychology (inner child) said that she thinks I’m growing up. I have her since one month. Since then my impulses are less strong. I need less sleep. I don’t really feel tired anymore. When I tell myself I love you I feel it. When I give myself a hug I feel it. When I hold my hand I feel it. I do learn a language since one month when previously I only could do that for 2 weeks. And I think the best. When I’m at a place it looks like I’m there for the first time every day. It doesn’t get boring (usually after a week). It’s like my brain is naturally stimulated. Also somehow anxiety got inside out.  At first I was afraid of eating and now I’m adding more and more things to my life. I’m still getting used to it and it’s a bit crazy. It’s beautiful and crazy 🙂

    I think it’s most important for me now to do things I’m anxious of first with myself. Talk to myself. Play with myself. Take myself for walks go to the cinema. And then add people to it. To create secure attachment.

    What do you think of that? Have you been trough something similar?

    #440777
    anita
    Participant

    Dear beni:

    Thank you for your kind words. I’m truly touched to red about your progress and the positive changes you’re experiencing. It sounds like you’re making significant strides in your journey toward healing and personal growth.

    I want to respond to your recent post more thoroughly tomorrow, but for now: your experience with romantic love and the clarity you’ve gained through it is profound. It’s wonderful that you’re finding a sense of calm and presence in your daily life. The work you’re doing with your psychologist in Gestalt therapy and focusing on your inner child seems to be making a real difference.

    Feeling love and compassion for yourself, as you describe, is such a beautiful and crucial step. The fact that you can genuinely feel these self-affirmations and physical gestures of self-love indicates deep healing. It’s also great to read about your new language learning endeavor and how your brain is naturally stimulated by new experiences.

    Your plan to face anxieties by starting with yourself—talking, playing, and taking yourself on dates like going to the cinema—is a fantastic approach. Building a secure attachment with yourself first is a powerful strategy. It lays a strong foundation for healthy relationships with others.

    I’ve found that creating secure attachments and nurturing self-compassion can be incredibly healing. Engaging in activities alone can help build confidence and comfort in your own company, which then enhances your interactions with others. Your insights are wise, and it’s inspiring to read about your journey.

    I’m cheering you on as you continue to explore these new aspects of your life. Please keep sharing your successes and insights—they’re truly uplifting.

    Take care, I’m looking forward to reading more about your progress. I will add to this post to you again Tues morning (it’s Mon afternoon here).

    anita

    #440781
    Jana đŸȘ·
    Participant

    Hello Beni,

    I can relate to that very well. I am very introverted and sinsitive which is a cocktail for alienation. I tend to isolate myself, too. I am quite sensitive and I absorb people’s energies, moods. But I have never noticed what you mentioned about the eyes. I personally have the biggest problem with specific people who are loud, overextroverted, drama-creating but also aggressive people. Their energy always overwhelm me… I used to have social phobia. EFT and today Buddhism (meditation, mindfulness, moral codes) helps me a lot.

    I have feelings of not fitting in from time to time. But it is quite difficult because at the same time I am satisfied this way. I am a lone wolf. I am used to fight alone and it always worked the best for me.

    I am the happiest person just alone. I love nature and animals. From time to time I stil experience uncomfortable feelings when I have to socialize with unknown people or meet complicated personalities. I am working on it and doing much better than a month ago… But I think that deep in my heart I am still looking for reconciliation with these people… that’s probably what my heart needs and I don’t know how to solve it yet. Because it is not that I don’t like people… I need to achieve peace with specific types of people. And I’m trying to do it through my self-acceptance. … I still need a lot of understanding.

    “Also suppressing abandonment will wake up self harm.” – Can you explain this, if you want to and you don’t mind writing about it?

    ☀ đŸȘ·

    #440785
    beni
    Participant

    This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.

    Hey Jana,

    I wanna tell more about the eyes and being with people and also right now cause I’m feeling nervous I can only reply to your question.

    It seems that when I’m in the abandoned/depressed state which often means social isolation in many aspects. And I just decide things for me. So I do this and that. Now you have to do this. This is important.

    Then this will suppress. Logic is actually veery dangerous! I will then do little acts of suicide during the day. I will take a little more risk with a hot pan. I will use more force than needed to open a jar. I take more risks in sport. I’m just not really careful on my body. In a way angry on myself. This will get stronger when suppressed. And seems to not happen when abandonment is experienced. This impulse can get so strong that the body acts it out by itself in a moment of loss of control. That is I think why suicidal people are afraid of open windows.

    So atm I’m death scared of abandonment.

    What I figured out this week. I just hug myself till I’m trough. Every night in bed I slip into an abandoned state and tonight I had success hugging myself for maybe 2h. Rather than trying to put the awareness away from the abandoned tense body I held it. Meditation also can suppress and I need to be careful with it but also I think I would turn insane if wouldn’t have it in my life!

    There is some inconsistencies in the writing as I write it seems that I struggle to differentiate abandonment, ill-will, depression, anger. I think I haven’t learned yet to differentiate the feelings well. Sometimes I don’t know what is what. You may sense that too.

    #440787
    beni
    Participant

    I reported my own post by mistake, really inappropriate 🙂

    #440805
    anita
    Participant

    Dear beni:

    I appreciate the humor in your inappropriate reporting comment 🙂

    At the end of your previous post, you asked me: “What do you think of that? Have you been through something similar?”

    I can relate to the struggles you face, particularly to your very difficult relationship with your mother and the consequences of that relationship on you.

    This is what you shared about your mother and the relationship with her (June 2023-July 2024): “I still do not trust her (do not open up) and make sure to keep her on distance… Yes, the word martyr fits in well… I belief she couldn’t give me space, maybe I was part of meeting her needs. Like when you ask ‘how are you’ but actually you create space to tell how you feel…my mom started crying and she was like that’s not fair and so and so…I told her then: ‘I don’t want to answer to you if you look at me like this’…I do not have space for her pain in these situations because of my own pain…I couldn’t set boundaries as a child there was no space for it…she would say I need to do something right now! And I couldn’t do it. I’d just sat and looked at her. I… needed to… understand why it was so important and needed to be done right now… I can’t take it if it’s being pushed around… I talk about a situation where I showed myself vulnerable last year… and instead of being listened to, she started with her pain cause there was a space for it… It would accumulate and then at one point cause she needed support she’d lose it in a sense that she is crying and overwhelmed…. probably her need got very urgent she could breakdown or get bossy… my mother would struggle to stand up for herself… she would be emotional, and it would not make sense in a logic way…. For sure she did abuse her powers. I can just hardly remember. I think/feel it’s something like my space. She was too close. There was not enough space for me…. I don’t think she could care much about my emotional needs…. My mom would always want to know how our day was or his day at work and we did not really wanna answer. It didn’t feel right. It was/is often a too open a question and doesn’t feel safe to reply. It’s in… When you don’t listen but project yourself on the reply, it can be painful to the replier…. By not expressing myself I protect my Mom from worrying or meet her need for control. If she makes a request and I’m not sure that it’s selfless I can’t do it. I think I can’t visit her for a while now…If I give her affection in a way I enable something I do not want to enable. I need affection from her first. It gives her allowance to be weak, but I need a strong mother. I need an anchor…. I would agree to her only being able to accept me if I meet her need. Yes, I draw a line. My body draws a line. Yes, it’s very essential, it is to maintain my Identity and my will… She gets a fierce look. As if she’s made responsible for something which is my fault…I think she believes it’s my duty as her child to support her…I think I want her to really see me and see me equal. I have the same right to choose the task as she does. It’s not really about the task it’s about control and me making a statement that I do not wish to be controlled. I want to be asked what I would like to do and what is needed. I want my support to be valued and not taken for granted…I’ve been thinking that I am dependent on her (subconscious). Cause I noticed that the things which stress her out like go traveling, working a regular job, not misusing drugs, having a girlfriend are things I struggle(d) creating for myself. It sometimes feels like that I am my mom, and myself is this thing I can’t control. And all I wish is that I would not need to care about myself. It would just do what it is supposed to do.”

    I can relate, beni, to not trusting your mother, to experiencing a significant level of emotional disconnect from her, to having a need to protect yourself from her, to having a mother with a Martyr Complex, where she fulfills some of her emotional needs through her interactions with her son (or daughter), making it very difficult for the son (or daughter) to express- let alone assert- your own needs and feelings, as her needs took precedence.

    I can relate to having a mother with a strong need to control and dominate. I relate to having an emotionally volatile mother, which makes it very difficult to establish a sense of personal space, and which made it very difficult for me to share anything with her for fear of an overwhelming emotional over-response.

    I can relate to having a conditional and unbalanced relationship with one’s mother (as a child and as an adult), and how damaging it is. I very much relate to feeling conflicted, desiring to separate my identity from hers but struggling to do so.

    I relate to the experience of (emotional) parentification, where the son or daughter takes on a caregiver role for one’s mother, fulfilling her emotional needs instead of receiving appropriate support and care from her. And I can relate to codependency, where your sense of self-worth and identity are entangled with your mother’s needs and behaviors. This dynamic made it very, very challenging for me, as an adult, let alone as a child, to assert independence and establish healthy boundaries (well, I didn’t for decades).

    I relate to Emotional Enmeshment where the emotional states and needs of one person (the mother) overly influence and dominate the other person’s (the son’s, or daughter’s) emotional well-being.

    I relate to the fear of abandonment, and to insecure attachment patterns where safety and security in relationships are compromised by inconsistent and intrusive behaviors on the part of the mother.

    If you would like, we can further discuss the above. Overall, beni, I appreciate your openness and honesty about the struggles and victories in your journey. It’s evident that you’re growing and finding new ways to cope and thrive. Keep embracing those small steps forward. Stay strong and keep nurturing that beautiful relationship with yourself.

    anita

    #440810
    beni
    Participant

    Heey Anita,

    I’m cheering you on as you continue to explore these new aspects of your life. Please keep sharing your successes and insights—they’re truly uplifting.

    I love to read that. I feel childlike.

    You impress me with the review of my past activity here. I love that you care. I send you a big hug!

    Overall, beni, I appreciate your openness and honesty about the struggles and victories in your journey. It’s evident that you’re growing and finding new ways to cope and thrive. Keep embracing those small steps forward. Stay strong and keep nurturing that beautiful relationship with yourself.

    Thanks Anita, I want to do that!

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