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Anita – how do I find my joy again?

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  • #360353
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

    <h2><span style=”font-size: 16px;”>Juanita</span></h2>
    Thinking about what it is like to be a man, I have focused on weak men, who don’t show respect and are not capable of true love.
    Let’s me know if I am on the right track in attempting to understand your husband.

    All men have one or two of these traits, but weak men attempt to have most of them: Givers, Caretaker, Seek approval from others (especially from women), Conflict-avoidant, Seek the right way to do things, Try to be perfect and avoid mistakes (so people don’t think they’re bad), Repress their feelings, Want to be different from their fathers, They’re more comfortable being with women, They exert tremendous effort to make their partners happy, but fail miserably. Weak men constantly give because they think that’s what makes them good ( impress their mothers) they tend to put others first, they put everyone’s needs ahead of their own, becoming utterly miserable along the way.

    Weak men are afraid of conflict, so this may be why your husband ignores you when you ask for something or raise a topic he does not like . Since your husbands avoids conflicts, nothing ever gets solved with him. He might disagree with you, but he doesn’t say it or he might even pretend to agree, just to avoid conflict and arguments. He is passive aggressive.
    When he disagrees, he still tells you what he thinks you want to hear. But, then he reverses his words and decisions to please someone else.

    Even thou he thinks he is a saint , the is actually the opposite ,he lies telling people what they want to hear, hides his true intention, uses indirect ways and manipulation to get what he needs-wants, he can  be very controlling. Ultimately he only gives  to get which will brew resentment and anger

    He needs to grow a pair and be a real man, he must have total acceptance of who he really is, he must like himself,  he must take care of his needs,  he must be comfortable with his sexuality, he must value integrity, he must speaks up, he must set clear boundaries and is not afraid of enforcing them, he embraces and his Accepts his flaws.

    These are questions for your husband :

    • Does he know how please yourself first?
    • Does he enjoy sex with you ( it has he other out let’s , ie porn)?
    • Is he honest about his fears ?
    • Does he Eat well ?
    • Does he play sport ?
    • Does he spend quality time with men ?

    Intimate relationships require people to look within themselves and open up about who they really are. If your husband is always wearing a mask and always hiding his true self, it is a downward spiral. Male boundaries are crucial for good emotional health and a positive social life. If has no boundaries then he is pissed when you try to set them for him, becoming a mother and child relationship and not a partnership of

    From chatting with guys, generally weak men are ashamed and uncomfortable with their sexuality. Ultimately, intimacy  it not enjoyable for weak men and often not enjoyable for the woman either.

    He needs to become confident , competitive and putting him self first, including his own pleasure. Only then can he truly love you.

    This a bit of a brain dump, but it is food for deeper discussion … if I am off the mark, I apologise.

    Tony

    #360354
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Juanita:

    A virtual hug back to you. I will keep my posts to you short because like you wrote: “we have covered such a lot of material in a short space of time.. it is just not possible to deal with so much at once”.

    My post today will include just one comment on what you wrote here: “It is a very big, uncomfortable question- how to deal with the life-giver“-

    The life giver reads like a god or a goddess, one who gives life. But in reality, when a woman eats, food enters her body through an opening, goes down a tube, gets digested, and what remains exits/ pushed out of her body through another opening. When a woman has sexual intercourse, sperm enters her body through an opening, goes up a tube, meets an egg, grows, and exists/ pushed out of her body through an opening.

    These two processes just happen: sh** happens and life happens. A woman is not a goddess to be revered and worshipped for giving birth any more than she is a goddess to be revered for.. well, you get my point.

    anita

     

    #360457
    Juanita
    Participant

    Hello Tony,

    now it is my turn to thank you for your insights!  And I have to say I was quite staggered!  If I didn’t know better I would have thought that you had met my estranged husband in person and interviewed him beforehand!  No need for any apologies, I am very happy.  Your every paragraph describes him to a T and I’m going to print out your post and put it in my divorce file to remind me of what I am leaving behind!  Shudder!

    In fact, though I know it is not really a funny subject, I actually had to laugh quite often, both out of surprise that you know so much about such undesirable people (how?) and because it is so awful, it is almost funny!  Especially when you said with regard to negative traits, that “weak men attempt to have most of them”.  Classic!

    I found your portrayal and explanations really enlightening.  I wish I had known about this as a young woman, it would have changed the course of my life, for sure.  It is exactly this manipulative helpfulness which makes weak guys seem like a nice person in the beginning, and which continued to confuse me a lot, but thanks to Anita’s help I am now much clearer.

    The only thing which is missing for me is that you misunderstood (or more likely I failed to clearly explain) the goal I wish to achieve.  This goal is only temporary with regard to my husband as he will not be part of my future, but I think it would generally help me when dealing with the other weak men out there.  So for me it is not about how he would have to change, though I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written and it feels good to receive confirmation of what I thought myself.

    Rather, to use your terminology, I want to learn how to imitate what a strong man would say to a weak man in order to set him boundaries.  But perhaps it doesn’t work like that, as the weak guys already sense the strong guy and automatically back off?  And perhaps weak men have such disregard for women that it makes no difference how you speak to them?  But that is what I would like to know: if you think there is a way I could speak to weak men which forces them to acknowledge me, and accept if not respect, my requests?

    What I wouldn’t have thought to do, and which I find very interesting, is to use the words “weak” and “strong” to describe differences in male behaviour.  In astrology, whilst I’m not sure how the weak description fits in (I think they are in denial since finding the planet “Loser” LOL), the strong description is precisely the definition of the archetype of Mars, which I see as a neutral description of qualities, not sexist.

    However … you have made me think about the question of strong men, of this archetype, and I conclude that I have not met any.  Of course, I must have met plenty through business, but not in a personal relationship.  And now I am asking myself why?  There is obviously the factor of my father as a primary relationship model, and he is definitely weak, and I definitely do not respect him for that.  So why didn’t I go out and look for a strong man??

    I don’t know really.  It could be a combination of many things.  If I am honest I think I feel a certain amount of fear that a strong person would want to limit my freedom too much, in the way of expecting me to conform to the role they want me to play for them (as was forced upon me in childhood, I just realised).  Ironically I also had this problem with weak men too …

    I think I should have been named after the goddess Diana, who begged her father to release her from the confines of womanhood and allow her freedom.  She spent her time living in nature, roaming free, just as I love to do.

    Perhaps I just have some conflicting archetypes living within me!  I naturally would have loved it if a man were to have offered me his strength as protection and his love to share, but I have a very independent streak and a need for a lot of space.  So when I was young I just couldn’t cope with the thought of being a housewife as my raison d’être, I always wanted to go out there and climb my own mountains and have worldly success first.  I saw a solely housewife role as living small in the shadow of another person.  Yet at the same time I actually really love making a home, cooking, and nurturing, and have great fun taking children on adventures (btw I don’t mean to depreciate housewives at all, I’m just saying how it felt for me).

    But to go back to the weak man / strong man thing.  I just wonder if I have ended up with weak men by default, as all their sugar-coated lies made me believe I was going to be left enough space, yet really, as I understand you now, I would have been given this automatically by a strong man (though possibly one who was particularly tolerant of eccentricity, methinks!)

    Thank you so much for sharing your ideas with me.  I see that there is a lot going on here for me with the theme of weak and strong.  I realise that I must have been very confused as a young woman because I was repeatedly told as a child by all and sundry that I was “too strong”, so I perhaps assumed that a strong man would see me as competition? (Your thoughts on this would greatly interest me.)

    At any rate, as a child I seemed to intimidate people a lot because of their perception of me.  I was always “too” something – too strong, too joyful, too tall, too fast, too clever, too talented, too slim … I guess if I’d have had supportive parents I would have grown up and embraced my way of being, but as it is I was pulled back, down and then thrown out into the world, ready or not.

    To close, I have to say that it is of great comfort to me to read that you also believe contrasting archetypes can live in harmony, “these needs can live in harmony; the key is honest communication and understanding.”  I never got to experience this, but it is what I always believed to be true.  I hope to have better luck in another life.  This time round I’m just going to stick to gardening and handicrafts from now on!

    Juanita

    #360460
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

    Chris deBurgh , The Head and the Heart …. wow that a blast from the past , 1984 and The Man on the Line Album.

    Chris is another talented English singer, I have a few if his albums .

    Do you connects songs with emotions, memories and people ? , I do. Lady in Red came out in 1986 and was a favourite of Helens, she wore red on our first date , but the association came later as we started dating before the Lady in Red was released. This song reminds me of Helen. The song that I associated with Susan is “Cowboys and Angels” by George Micheal , this was released in 1991, again long after I had “finished” with Susan. I used replay Cowboys and Angels” as every word meant captured Susan……. I have not listened to this song in years .

    Over time another song captured the complete essence of Susan and what she means to me, I will not share it here as it is an obscure song that people that know me , know I love this song . It is about love and a painful void, the void could be death or time .

    #360461
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

    You write “manipulative helpfulness which makes weak guys seem like a nice person in the beginning, and which continued to confuse me a lot” , you nailed it,   I will respond fully later. I see I made some grammar errors, when I resend my written word I often think I am a little dyslexic as I don’t see the errors.

    I will write a lot more later

    #360463
    Juanita
    Participant

    Tony, if the content is excellent, the rest is irrelevant!  It is great to receive confirmation that I am getting clearer.  Yay!!  I look forward to reading from you again.  Thank you for taking the time for me.

    Juanita

    #360465
    Juanita
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I think to aide our clear communication, there is something from my side which I didn’t want to mention, both due to the public nature of the forum and because of the nature of the information.  I will explain in vague terms, but clearly enough for you to be able to understand.  However, please do not read this when you are tired.  It is pretty tough stuff, may be triggering and is probably upsetting.  There’s no hurry to answer me.

    There is a very concrete reason why I know I will never cut off contact with my mother as this would inevitably also severely affect other family members.  The reason is due to having experienced the other side of being cut off by others and the devastating effect which it had both upon myself and upon other innocent members of the family.

    Before I go any further, please believe me that I genuinely do not judge you for having made your decision.  Your situation is your situation and it would be wrong for you feel you need to justify your choices just because I have made a contrary experience.  Our experiences are also not comparable, as I think you will see.

    There was a situation when I was younger of a multiple homicide attempt upon my family.  Such criminals should really be called murderers, because when people survive deadly injuries by incredible fortune, this doesn’t detract from the intention and action of their attackers.

    It was an indescribable shock to almost lose everyone in the blink of an eye and we spent many months together fighting for everyone to survive.  I was the only fit person standing and did my best, but I was also left to deal with everything completely alone by the extended family.  When you have helped your close family survive their horrendous injuries, needed days to clean their blood from the walls, floors and furnishings of your family home, then you inevitably become more deeply connected.

    For some reason, which I see as evidence of the severely dysfunctional nature of the extended family as a whole, some extended family members saw this as an excellent time to bring up old ills and influence the whole extended family to cut contact with us.  Their excuse was with regard to my mother, but the real life effect of this was that I was left without any support network at the time I most needed it, and the effect upon my sister in particular was so distressing, it contributed in the main to literally ruining her life (as if surviving attempted murder is not terrible enough).  That is a damn hard thing to have to witness.  She was so funny and beautiful as a child, I thought she would have a wonderful life and it is heart-breaking to see her now.  I am independent by nature and an adventurer, but my sister needed to feel part of a group to feel safe.

    I absolutely get it that cutting of contact with damaging persons is of benefit to oneself and the most direct way to the goal of healing, and I do always take that way when I can.  But I am convinced that there are also other ways of achieving this goal and  in this case I will simply keep at it until I succeed.  I have already overcome so much and they say you can achieve anything you set your mind to.

    I hope this is not all too intense, but there is one other thing I would like to say, which is that I truly do feel it is something very sacred to giving life and to being born.  I know many, if not most, parents lack the conscious awareness to realise this, but it doesn’t make it any less sacred to me.

    Of course I can understand where you are coming from.  I have observed all my life how far too many women become mothers without being suitable, conscious or even willing, so I agree wholeheartedly that women do not automatically deserve a gold medal, or a goddess throne (LOL!) just because they are mothers, although it is a big social stigma still to “dare” to criticise a mother.

    It would be nice if we could experience that the life-giver were like a goddess, how amazing would that be!  For me though, believing as I do that we are an independent soul coming from the Divine, I feel it is not so much about the person who is the mother, but more about receiving the amazing gift of life itself.  A metaphor: you may or may not care for your postman, but if you receive a great gift, that’s a happy day!

    It doesn’t feel to me like being good to myself, honouring myself, if I compare the birth process to a mere bio-mechanical function of some woman’s body.  Rather, I believe that no matter who/how the mother may be, our coming into life is sacred and shows us that holiness can be found even in the deepest darkness.  So I do not attribute creation to the darkness, but rather to the Light.

    I am not sure if I’ve really explained myself clearly on that last bit!  You will let me know.  But I hope overall to have enabled you to more clarity about my position and motives.

    Juanita

    #360466
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

     

    Juanita

    If you are looking for a real man , suggest you let him find you. Focus on being a competent independent woman, this will attract real men.
    Best relationships are partnerships with 2 independent people , as no one can fulfil you.

    I know many men like your ex-husband , as most men worship woman , and falsify who they really are to justify the woman’s attention , thus the woman is fooled that he has meet a kind attentive man .

    More to write ..

     

    Tony

    #360468
    Juanita
    Participant

    oh Tony,

    I must be the exception to the rule!  Except for perhaps 2 years ago when I had a bad depression, I’ve always been a competent, independent woman!  I know it is due to unconscious patterns from my childhood that I have ended up with such weak idiots, but I don’t see myself as weak or dependent.  I clearly didn’t have a good antenna for recognising falsifying so far, but I am very aware now, especially after the way you have described these men.

    I am totally not looking for another man, I have given up.  It’s also not so much fun now as men tend not to care for themselves physically and are often not too attractive, and I’m not desperate.  Being a competent, independent woman, I am okay on my own.  I like my own company and am never bored.

    And your confirmation that there are many men like my ex just shows that it’s not worth the bother.  I also believe that in this day and age of instant pornography and online dating, I am like a being from another galaxy compared to where many of these men are at.

    Juanita

    #360512
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Juanita:

    What you described just a bit: “a multiple homicide attempt upon my family.. fighting for everyone to survive… helped.. close family survive their horrendous injuries, needed days to clean their blood from the walls, floors and furnishings”, is horrific.

    You wrote that part of the family cut contact with the victims of the homicidal attacks, and this is the reason why you will not consider ending contact with your mother.

    I am distressed having read about the violence you described, with minimal details. I don’t know where to go from here, having read this. I do know one thing: I will never, ever suggest that you end contact with any member of your family. That, I  know.

    I am speechless, don’t know what to say. I-am-sorry seems inappropriate as the situation was too horrific for these three words. This is devastating information.

    anita

    #360528
    Juanita
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I am very sorry to have distressed you.  It’s a complicated situation and I just didn’t know how else to explain my reasons but I felt that our open communication deserves the truth. I’m sorry if there would have been a simpler, less upsetting way, but how else could you understand if I don’t say it?

    My experiences took a long time to get over, maybe you never completely get over something like that.  I have a delicate balance to achieve but it feels like the right decision.  The whole family was influenced to cut contact, a big family spread over all continents, not just the local ones.  I am the only other relative my sister and her child have, and soon to be the only one due to our parents’ ages.  She never recovered her old self after what she went through.  It is all very sad.

    You don’t have to say anything more than the understanding and compassion you have already expressed, thank you.  You couldn’t possibly have known.

    Where to go from here, dear Anita, is writing wonderful support as you do.  I was so deeply touched by your suggestion that I just allow myself to write here and let my creativity flow.  Maybe I will really start doing that in some way, I’m not sure it is something I want to do on a public platform though.

    I feel lots of little seeds begin to wake into life through our contact.  I am more grateful for this than I can possibly express in words.  I am a strong person, but very alone at this phase in my life, so to have the possibility of being able to express myself openly, to wonder, learn, question, is a very great gift.  I have become much happier since we are communicating.

    Juanita

     

    #360532
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Juanita:

    It is so good to read your recent post, thank you for expressing your appreciation of our communication. I appreciate it too, and I appreciate you.

    About writing your truth on a public forum, I don’t think that many people are reading our words, especially during these times. Here is something you can try: type away (or write with a pen on paper, whatever facilitates your creativity) and after you do, figure out if you are comfortable posting it here.

    I will be away from the computer for a couple of hours.

    anita

    #360538
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

    You are wise, I feel if I were single at my age I would not seek a relationship, I would have a large social network but not commit. If someone very special came alone great , if not that OK as well.

    I agree that lots of people let themselves prematurely , often the role of diet is not understood . I am the same weight I was in my 20s, this is not an accident, but rather a concerted effort.

    A few negatives about ageing

    – the excitement of newness is blunted, been there done that.

    – limited time for long term plans

    – too much time to think about life and stuff, better being busy with life

    #360542
    Juanita
    Participant

    Hello Tony,

    yes, I would consider it as a very lucky plus if I happened to meet someone but it is much more relaxing (and realistic) to assume that I will now be alone for the rest of my life and just be happy with all the positives this brings.

    I am also very much into eating healthily, it is something which just appealed to me since childhood and I have been eating organic and vegetarian most of my life.

    You know, I find it pretty sad to read the things you associate with ageing and I would love to hear that you change your mind!  We are in the same age group, so maybe it is just my personality and maybe most people in their 50’s feel as you do, I cannot say.  But don’t you think that every single human has limited long term plans at all times, as people die just after being born, and at any time after that?  I see it as a kind of permanent schizophrenia that people live in, so busy and important in their lives, all the while acting as if death did not exist.  It hangs over us in every moment, yet at the same time there is every possibility that you would live the same length of time again.  With all that extra wisdom and knowledge – wow!  A lot of fun to be had!  (that’s my plan)

    At the same time you say you don’t have enough time, but also too much time.  Hhhmm … I tend to interpret these comments in the context of the first point on your list, which is that it is perhaps not the excess or lack of time which is really the issue, but the loss of your joy and / or meaning?

    I still have a huge capacity for feeling excitement and a very childlike joy about many things.  I would also still have a lot of fun and joy in a relationship, had I only met a good man.  I can’t say that any of this has permanently left me.  I still am crazy about going dancing, I still love going for walks in the moonlight, watching the sunrise.  My awe has not left me and I wonder if we even need continual newness when we still have joy and meaning?

    I certainly had a time of losing both, and I felt very disorientated.  Nothing could interest me, nothing seemed to be worth bothering about any more, including me. I had picked up a lot of pieces already, but the exchanges I am having on this forum are helping me to find my way back to my true joie de vivre.

    Here’s to you finding yours!

    Juanita

     

     

    #360544
    Canadian Eagle
    Participant

    You are correct , you got me on a bad day . I am preparing to live to 100, if it does happen I plan to be the best 100 year old I possibly can be. I think this lockdown has removed my social and professional network, I was always the optimists , I think this lockdown is a taste of retirement and it is not for me. I like the smell of cut grass in the rain, I love the smell of freshly baked bread in the morning , I adore the magic of a double rainbow and the golden sunset on a calm ocean. …… my 50s have been the best decade of my life, why can’t my 60s be even better . I wise man told me that your 50s and 60s are you best decades as you have sorted out your @#*” and now you are no longer holding yourself back.

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