Anita’s Choice to Leave the Forums

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

At the very least, it was insensitive to bring up what is clearly a major trigger out of no where. And to question if it happened. I cannot even fathom a positive reason why anyone would say something like this.

I agree that it was insensitive of anita to quote cases of mothers drowning their children that she found on the internet. I know you believe she questioned the validity of your childhood trauma, but I’ve looked closely into anita’s words, and I truly can’t say that I see any ill intention there.

But I know that you’re still skeptical about it and that entire exchange was triggering for you. So I’ll try to give you my impression of what might have gone on in anita’s mind and why I believe that if there was any mistrust on her part, it was only in the very beginning (and she shared those first thoughts that ran through her mind). But then, very soon after that, she completely trusted you.

So these are anita’s first thoughts after she read (on September 16) that you suffered from drowning trauma:

At first, when I read this, I  “heard” myself  asking you incredulously: did it REALLY happen? I was surprised that you didn’t share such a severe traumatic detail in an original post on your first or second thread.

She was astonished that you went through such abuse, and the first thing that went through her mind was a sort of disbelief. It was so shocking to her that she could hardly believe it. Apart from being astonished, she was also surprised that you haven’t shared it before: “I was surprised that you didn’t share such a severe traumatic detail in an original post on your first or second thread”.

This might have caused initial mistrust in her, asking herself “did it REALLY happen?” (I am not claiming she did feel mistrust – it’s just a speculation!)

But then she looked it up and found that you actually did share it already in May, on your other thread (Buddhism Journal), but that she failed to see it: “when I read these two sentences yesterday morning, it was news to me and I was very surprised that I failed to read it earlier”.

When she realized that you already shared it before, her suspicions (if there were any) melted away. And she trusted you fully.

So I believe that even in the scenario that she was a little mistrustful in the beginning (which I am not claiming she was) – she completely trusted you by the time she wrote her reply.

Therefore, I believe that truly, anita trusted you and didn’t want to invalidate your experience.

Her mistake though was that she shared her thought process with you to the slightest detail. That was actually triggering for you because you thought she doesn’trust you.

A part of her initial thought process might have also been checking similar cases of abuse on the internet. So she included that too in her reply – which for you as the victim of abuse was very triggering. She shouldn’t have done that – but again, I don’t think there was any ill intention there. I think she just wanted to be completely transparent, not thinking that her words might hurt you.

So this is my impression of this whole situation. Others are welcome to share their views too. But for me, I am pretty sure that she didn’t want to cause you any harm.

 

So there’s some previous history that you might have missed.

True, I wasn’t very active on the forum last spring, when the conflict between the two of you first started (in May). But I’ve looked it up now in more detail and made some notes. I still believe there was overreaction and misunderstanding on both sides, but I saw that anita did treat you poorly on several occasions, and I understand why you’re feeling hurt.

I think she was triggered and lost her cool. Of course, being triggered is not a justification for bad behavior. If you want me to share my impressions about the conflict between the two of you, please let me know.

 

[tinybuddha]

Hi Helcat,

You’re welcome, and thanks so much!

Lori

[Helcat]

Hi Tee

Thank you for your explanation and for your time. I know that we haven’t communicated much but I value your opinion as you often give members excellent feedback. I appreciate that you tried to reach out when I left. I noticed your message when I returned, but I didn’t reply because I thought Anita would be bothered if the thread was active.

Your explanation makes sense. I can see now that Anita was sharing an overview of her thought process. That makes it less painful.

I find objective third party opinions very helpful, I often ask friends how they perceive situations. There is not only one way to see things, my experience is only one small part of a larger whole. My experience is subject to change as my understanding does.

Please feel free to share your thoughts about the conflict.

I know that I wish Anita had discussed her feelings outside of a time when I was feeling very hurt and defensive. It’s not really conducive for a calm and empathetic conversation. I wasn’t able to be present for that conversation in the way that I wanted to be.

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

You’re welcome and thank you for your kind words!

I find objective third party opinions very helpful, I often ask friends how they perceive situations.

It’s great that you’re open to feedback and ask trusted people for their view on the matter. That’s a very useful practice!

Your explanation makes sense. I can see now that Anita was sharing an overview of her thought process. That makes it less painful.

I am glad it helped you a little. Yes, I believe anita wanted to be transparent and so she over-shared, unwittingly.

So I’ve spent quite a lot of time studying your and anita’s interaction, and have noticed some patterns. I just want to say that what I am about to share, I am sharing in good faith. My intention is not to judge either you or anita, or take sides, but to give you my impression as an outside observer, and hopefully help in some way.

So what I’ve noticed is that there were plenty of interactions where both you and anita saw things clearly and responded from your true self. That’s when you got along well and had good and mutually respectful conversations.

But there were also situations in which either one of your or both of you reacted from a wound (and misinterpreted things, or overreacted), which then caused conflict.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

An example of the situation where you saw things more clearly and anita refused to see it is when you warned her about treating some members harshly, e.g. when she addressed one member with the label “incel”, or when she accused another member for creating multiple accounts and lying. She strongly refused that she was disrespectful to anyone (“you keep repeating that I disrespect OPs when this is not the case“), and instead accused you of having a personal vendetta against her.

An example of the situation where anita had a good intention and you were too sensitive is when you believed that she was questioning the validity of your childhood trauma. The way she phrased her post was triggering for you, and you wouldn’t accept her explanation of why she didn’t mean anything bad.

An example of the situation where both of you were too sensitive and overreactive is when you thought that anita was talking about you on the thread School Bullying, when she wasn’t. You interrupted her conversation with another member, and asked her to stop referring to you and the disagreement she had with you. I’ve checked her post and she really wasn’t referring to you, but was talking about her mother’s bullying. I am pretty sure you’ve misread it.

But then anita – reacting from her own wound – escalated the conflict and accused you of cyberbullying and stalking. Which were definitely inappropriate accusations.

I think another example of such a situation, where both of you had an unbalanced reaction, was your first conflict, which happened in May, on the thread Attacked.

Anita was sharing about her progress with her mental health, but then you pressured her to admit that her anxiety is still high, and told her that her bar for happiness seems low. That wasn’t very kind… You later explained what you meant and that you wanted to encourage her to rise above her limitations. But even if so, that post of yours wasn’t very supportive.

Anita’s reaction to that post was severe. She stopped addressing you directly and instead addressed the rest of the community, show-casing you as an example of “how not to communicate”. Her tone was pretty condescending and belittling. In my opinion, that post was quite hurtful.

A few days later anita apologized for that, saying: “Dear Helcat: I apologize for expressing anger at you harshly and indirectly. I felt too hurt and too threatened to (1) be aware of my feelings,  and (2) to express my feelings clearly and directly.”

Following her apology, you apologized to her too for unwittingly causing her pain. You also explained where you were coming from when you “pressured” her about her anxiety. You two smoothed out the conflict (on May 18) and ended the exchange on a positive note.

This mutual apology is an example of both of you acting in good faith, with empathy and understanding for each other.

So this is the dynamic, i.e. the four types of interactions that I’ve noticed between you and anita. I’d love to hear your feedback and if you think there’s some truth in it.

A lot more could be said, but I wouldn’t want to push my opinion. If you found this helpful, I’d be happy to go into more detail.

 

[Helcat]

Hi Tee

Thank you for your feedback!

I am aware that this is a public forum, and there is a risk of cyber bullying, as well as the risk of members replying to the original poster (me in this case) angrily, impatiently, inattentively, and/or dismissing the OP’s abilities and successes and focusing on the OP’s inabilities and failures, sometimes insisting on the latter.

This quote from Anita on the School Bullying thread is her reference to our argument. This was the reason I spoke to her on that thread.

I didn’t accept her apology related to the misunderstanding because it didn’t make sense to me. She basically said that she found my experiences so shocking they didn’t seem real. But at the same time she didn’t disbelieve me. As I’ve said before, I take things quite literally. It’s not the first time I’ve had a disagreement based around understanding of language. Your explanation was very detailed and broke down things more. I found that helpful in understanding Anita’s reasoning.

For me, the mutual apology situation didn’t work out because I was ignored before the apology and I was ignored after the apology. In my mind, you don’t ignore people that you’ve forgiven.

I guess I just have a different perspective. I don’t see anxiety as something to be ashamed of. I noticed some patterns of avoidance and the only way to overcome avoidance is to face those feelings. I can be blunt sometimes and I can see how what I said can be interpreted as unkind or not supportive. I did understand why Anita was upset though. I wasn’t aware that Anita had difficulties related to personal posts. If she had shared that I would have taken a more gentle approach.

To be honest, I don’t see either Anita or myself being upset by any of those things as being too sensitive. I think it’s human and understandable to be upset at times. Do we get more upset than people who don’t have PTSD, sure. I don’t really see it as a problem though. It is a part of life. Usually, people communicate when they’re upset, there’s an apology and things move on.

Your feedback is always welcome Tee. Please feel free to share whatever you wish! I’m curious to hear more about your thoughts. 🙏

I think the only other thing I would add is that. I spoke to Anita for a while before the initial disagreement. She was very kind and helpful. I looked up to her a lot and saw her as a friend and equal. When trust is broken I have a hard time recovering from it. I have difficulty trusting people in general.

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

you’re welcome!

This quote from Anita on the School Bullying thread is her reference to our argument. This was the reason I spoke to her on that thread.

Oh I see…. I haven’t noticed it before, because I haven’t checked that particular post, but only the later one (from May 16). But yeah, that’s a clear reference to you, though she didn’t mention any names.

So it seems you were triggered by anita’s referring to you (indirectly) and describing you in a negative light, while not wanting to communicate with you directly and discuss the issues. You mentioned several times that anita was ignoring you, and I guess this too felt like she was ignoring you?

When reading through your correspondence from May last year, I’ve noticed something important that you shared about yourself:

It should be noted that being ignored is a trigger for me. My family do it when they are displeased with me. I don’t mind people expressing to me when they are feeling angry or upset and do my best to resolve disagreements when they occur.

Could it be that when anita stopped communicating with you (which was her way of reducing stress), it opened a wound in you – the wound of being ignored? Perhaps that’s why you had the need to approach her again and again, even if she expressed that she doesn’t want to communicate with you?

You said you much rather stay in touch and talk things through, even if you’re upset with the person: Do we get more upset than people who don’t have PTSD, sure. I don’t really see it as a problem though. It is a part of life. Usually, people communicate when they’re upset, there’s an apology and things move on.

For anita, she preferred peace and very much disliked conflict. She mentioned it many times in her posts. So I guess, being in conflict caused her too much anxiety and she needed to withdraw, i.e. stop communicating with you. It was her way of reducing anxiety. But for you, it triggered a wound, because she cut you off.

So perhaps this created an unhealthy dynamic: you seeking contact and closure/clarification, while she seeing those attempts as you persecuting and stalking her? You trying to talk about problems and clear the air, and she wanting to run away and be left alone.

What do you think? Do you think there might be something to it?

 

[Helcat]

Hi Tee

Thank you for your insight!

I think you’ve got the jist of what occurred.

I don’t think anyone likes conflict. It’s actually really hard for me to talk to people about issues. I can’t even look at people during disagreements because I find it challenging and often cry. I was taught by my family to passively accept abuse and it’s not healthy for me to do so. For me, even though it is difficult, dealing with issues is the healthy thing to do.

The difficulty with avoidance is that it reinforces anxiety and confirms subconsciously that there is something to be afraid of. I have had many struggles of my own with avoidance and anxiety. My therapist taught me to fight that as the more we avoid, the more closed off we become towards the world and many opportunities / good experiences are missed.

[Helcat]

Circling back to the misunderstanding there was also another element. There is a reason I was suffocated and drowned. But at the time it seemed like my experience of that alone was too extreme to be believed. It’s really only the tip of the iceberg. I understand now that this wasn’t intended.

I was drowned and suffocated by my mother for trying to fight against sexual abuse in my early teens. I know it’s considered rare for mothers to sexually abuse their daughters. It was a tougher topic than people realised.

Anyway, we don’t have to talk about that. I’m sorry if any of that was too intense.

[Helcat]

Thank you for the opportunity to talk. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

I am truly sorry that you had to go through that level of abuse 🙁

Could you please just clarify so I can understand better: you said on your thread “Drowning” that your mother used to drown you while you were a small child (“As opposed to pleading for it to stop and being afraid of dying as a small child.”) Does that mean that the abuse started when you were little and continued all the way till you were in your teens, only then it involved sexual abuse too?

[Helcat]

Hi Tee

I see the confusion. I was very small as a tween because I was starved. The sexual abuse was fairly minor. I didn’t really notice it until I started to hit puberty when it started to escalated and I developed a sense of modesty.

It was when I started to fight it that the drowning and suffocating started. As an adult now, looking back I see myself then as a small child. I wasn’t a toddler.

[Helcat]

It was minor compared to what others have been through. I was willing to try and fight and even risk potentially dying to stop it. I was easily overpowered but eventually she understood that I wasn’t allowing it to happen anymore. Social work got involved around that time.

[Helcat]

Anyway… My point was that when someone finds drowning or suffocating shocking to the point of disbelief. It hurts because are worse things that happened to me.

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

thank you for clarifying, I understand it now… I am sorry you had to go through that. You did go through a lot of trauma growing up. I am glad that eventually, social services did get involved.

I also understand why it was triggering for you that anita was so shocked when she heard about your trauma, when it wasn’t even the entire abuse that you went through. It is upsetting… But I hope that you’re feeling less upset about it now?

 

[Tee]

Dear Helcat,

I’d like to reply to your previous post too.

I think you’ve got the jist of what occurred.

Good, I am glad that the dynamics is a bit clearer now.

I don’t think anyone likes conflict. It’s actually really hard for me to talk to people about issues. I can’t even look at people during disagreements because I find it challenging and often cry. I was taught by my family to passively accept abuse and it’s not healthy for me to do so. For me, even though it is difficult, dealing with issues is the healthy thing to do.

I see… you don’t like conflict either, however it is important for you to speak out when treated badly, and to talk about things that bother you. To not passively accept abuse. That’s a very healthy approach actually! Yes, sometimes conflict is necessary – as in, expressing what’s bothering us, rather than staying silent for the sake of false peace.

As I’ve already mentioned, I did stay silent a couple of times on the forum, for the sake of “peace”. You didn’t want that, and you spoke out…

The problem, as I see it, is that you wanted something from anita – you wanted her to at least talk to you. You asked her several times to share her feelings and talk about what’s bothering her, but she didn’t want to talk to you. She told you already in September that she doesn’t want to communicate with you.

Although, she did make veiled critical remarks about you when communicating with other members (e.g. she mentioned that anybody can misuse the Report button). Even though she didn’t want to communicate with you directly, she kept making remarks about you. She was expressing that she was bothered.

And I guess this was hurtful for you… So I am thinking that maybe you wanted her to change her opinion about you, to think well of you? As I said, I think you needed “something” from her, and this something was maybe for her to stay in touch and to think well of you?

This is just an idea… let me know if it resonates?

I hope you don’t mind me “digging” further into this… if you do find it disturbing or not helpful, please let me know.

 

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