Dear Joanna:

I wanted to let you know that I’ve been reading through your thread for a few hours today, and will continue tomorrow (starting at page 8). I hope that you are well.

anita

I have read some of my last responses (it is very uncomfortable for me to read more), I also have some notes (Back then I was writing what she said to me, why she was angry, what I did because of that – smashed things in my room, hit my legs, arms, hurt my face etc) and videos from some of my worst moments (I have this app on my computer when I could just record video instantly, I sometimes felt the need to do it while crying, I wanted to have it so that I would know I was not crazy and it really happened). Now I can see how.. I once said “I feel like I am in a cage” – something like that, maybe not those exact words but I remember thinking it a lot and I wrote it here to you, Anita..  You replied then that I was not, in fact in a cage.

It was simple but began my hope.

Looking at those notes and videos I can see that, I could not leave this cage for a long time, I wanted but I could not. I wasted many many years before I started living.

Thank you Anita, I read that you are reading the thread. I am ashamed of who I was then. I think I hurt a lot of people through the years. There was a lot of anger in me and I did not respect and appreciate people who were good. I feel sorry and ashamed. One thing I wish in my life to not be like my mother. To believe, to love and to not ruin other people.

Dear Joanna:

I re-read from your posts submitted since Oct 2017. In your original post you shared that you had a skin- picking habit due to your anxiety and that it worsened in 2016 when you were dating a guy with whom you were in love. You wrote about the guy: “He lied to me, cheated, didn’t even promise he wouldn’t and I agreed to all this, because I couldn’t leave“. In Sept 2017, you “ended things with this guy” and “he told me things that still haunt me…  and that I don’t even deserve to break up with because we were never a couple“. Also in Sept 2017, you found out that you had diabetes (not related to being overweight since you were skinny) and you had trouble breathing during sleep, which terrified you.

As you continued to post, you shared that you left your job in 2016 and had money problems, barely able to afford food and bills. You interviewed for work but “no one wants to hire me although I have higher education“. You didn’t blame the guy for his behavior; you blamed yourself for not making him love you: “when I met this guy he reminded me of my father so much, felt so familiar, so nice and safe. And then when I failed to make him love me… I  understand he is a bad person, but I can’t forgive myself I couldn’t make him love me, I keep analyzing every moment which could be different, every conversation which could be better“.

On January 2018, at 31, you shared, that growing up, your father didn’t notice you: “My mother didn’t notice me either. She was angry with my father every day, bad mood and took it out on me, yelled at me… He never yelled, hit or got angry with me… She scared me and he was always nice and gentle to me, but in the bad moments he just never did anything“.

You shared that your father had a drinking problem that started about the time your mother started an affair (you were about six at the time). Following your mother having had her affair for 6 years, your parents divorced when you were 12, so that (you were told) you would have a ‘normal and calm life‘, but instead of a normal and calm post-divorce life, your mother and the man she had her affair with (he was her partner after her divorce) were aggressive toward you: she criticized you and gave you the silent treatment; he bullied you every day.

Before your visitations with your father, at 12 and onward, your mother prepared you to  “to despise him, to have resentment, talked about how he didn’t pay money, how he never called me“, etc. At 12, your skin-picking habit started.

You shared that your mother expressed her anger at your father, at you and at her mother, her brother, her sister, and at other people a whole lot: “I just grew up hearing how bad people are“.

Your mother cared a lot about her own physical appearance and was obsessive and critical of yours: “She used to tell me every day I have thin hair, I’ll never grow long and thick hair… She once told me that when I was 2 years old she shaved my head bald because she hoped my hair would grow thicker. She bullied me about this hair all my life. Funny thing is my hair looks pretty nice and aren’t that thin at all“,

“She used to tell me (that)… I don’t stand straight and I will have a hump (she made me stay in a hospital for this..), that I’m skinny and I don’t eat, that I lisp… saying ‘speak properly, don’t lisp’… She used to make appointments to doctor who taught me to speak“, even though you lisped only when you were nervous and not otherwise.

You shared that you lived in a flat alone (a flat owned by your mother)  for some time, but since Nov 2017, your mother was living with you, after kind-of breaking up with her partner, as you put it.

On Feb 18, 2018, you shared: “I think she would ‘like’ me.. if I wore smart clothes and was married, and had a lot of money. I’m almost sure she would treat me better and respect me“- I already saw a lot of your mother in my mother (my mother too was obsessed with hair being too thin and she was very critical of her own and other people’s physical appearance, pointing out others’ flaws and mocking them), but when I read this sentence (in boldface), it was the first time that I read another person indicating this part of what was true to me as well: my mother too respected women who wore smart clothes, who had lots of money… and I am sure that if I was born with smart clothes on and a bag of money, she would have respected me too!

On that same day, Feb 18, 2018, on page 8 of our communication, I suggested to you to end all contact with your mother (as I have done five years before I suggested it to you). I pursued this goal (of you ending contact with your mother) all the way to April 13, 2018,  page 18, where I wrote to you: “Dear joanna: What is it that is keeping you there? The world is so big, oceans and continents, mountains, many thousands of cities and towns and places-in-the-middle-of-nowhere. And  billions of people. Why are you remaining in this one place, with this one woman.. look in the direction of the rest of the world, find a place for yourself elsewhere, far away?”.

In your response, you indicated no intention- or no ability- to end contact with her, and exasperated I sent you the last post the day after, April 14, 2018,  paraphrased: it’s too distressful for me to witness your suffering living with/ being in contact with your mother; if you ever intend to leave her, let me know and we will continue to talk.

That day was the last time we talked. You then deleted your account (appearing as “Anonymous”) until you returned 4 years and 7 months later as Joanna (capital J).

More in regard to the similarities between our mothers, I wrote to you on March 1, 2018: “Your mother ‘sounds’ like mine, what an amazing similarity: my mother too 1. Complained about my ‘wrongdoings’ but insisted that I do not fix those wrongdoings. 2. Blamed me for thinking what I was not thinking, for feeling what I was not feeling, for having intentions I did not have“. The day after, Marh 2, 2018, I wrote to you: “In all of my communications on the website, I believe that this is the first time, on your very thread, that I come across a case of a mother clearly refusing the daughter’s offers to correct what the mother complains about, and accusing her daughter for having bad intentions“. I then elaborated (paraphrased here): you (joanna) described an incident when your mother was angry at you for placing your things in the kitchen. When you offered to remove your things from the kitchen (a logical, sensible, simple solution), she accused you of having the intention not to help her, but to hurt her (to “show her“) by offering your solution. (I can almost hear my mother responding to the same offered solution by saying something like: you think that I didn’t think of this solution myself? That I am stupid??? As if I offered the solution with the intent of making her feel stupid).

I asked you: “did your mother accuse other people as well for having bad intentions against her, for trying to show her? what did she mean by showing her?”, and you answered on March 2 (quotes and paraphrased): “Yes, many times she accuses people“, for example, when your mother wore a new dress to work, she accused a co-worker of buying a similar dress “on purpose“, so “to show her she (the co-worker) is better (than your mother)”. Another example, “When someone doesn’t invite her to a wedding, someone we do not even stay in touch with, she says it’s on purpose“. Another example: “Our neighbor made a noisy party – she says he does this specifically to bother HER“. Another example: “Other neighbor’s kids don’t say good morning to her or us, or to anyone I assume, she says their mother told them to not say good morning specifically to her because they want revenge for when she did renovations and made noise“. There were other examples where she routinely- and with no supporting evidence- assigned people with bad intentions and expects the worse of them.

I fast forwarded through the remaining of the pages and didn’t see anywhere that I mentioned Paranoid Personality Disorder as it applies to my mother or yours. I’ve been aware for some time that my mother fits the diagnosis very well, in addition to Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).

Wikipedia/ Paranoid Personality Disorder (I am substituting the cautions “may be” or “may have” with “(are)” because there was no maybe in my mother’s behavior) : Paranoid personality disorder (PPD) is a mental illness characterized by paranoid delusions, and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others. People with this personality disorder (are) hypersensitive, easily insulted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions that..  validate their fears or biases. They are eager observers. They think they are in danger and look for signs and threats of that danger… not appreciating other interpretations or evidence.. People with PPD.. have a tendency to bear grudges, suspiciousness, tendency to interpret others’ actions as hostile, persistent tendency to self-reference.. Patients with this disorder can also have significant comorbidity with other personality disorders, such as schizotypal, schizoid, narcissistic, avoidant and borderline.”

Britannica. com/ self-reference: “an exaggerated tendency to self-reference—i.e., to systematically misinterpret remarks, gestures, and acts of others as intentional slights or as signs of derision and contempt directed at oneself. Self-reference becomes paranoid delusion when one persists in believing oneself to be the target of hostile actions or insinuations”.

When your mother attacked you for suggesting to remove your things from the kitchen, she didn’t think something like: joanna is trying to help me (and is therefore a good daughter/ person), and is suggesting a logical solution. Instead, she thought something like (this is what my mother would think): joanna is mocking me and suggested a solution so to let me know that I am not capable myself of finding a solution (and therefore, joanna is a bad daughter/ person).

In summary: growing up with a paranoid mother (one fitting, no doubt in my mind, the PPD criteria) is a horrific experience: She didn’t only portray … everyone as malicious, she portrayed me, her own daughter, as malicious, misinterpreting my words (said with no intent to mock her or hurt her, and often said with the intent to help her) as malicious. The result: untold suffering on my part, expecting the worst of people, trusting no one, doubting my own intentions, believing that something is very, very wrong with me, with my thinking itself;  chronic confusing, and distress. When I was absolutely sure that I was not guilty of a particular intent she accused me of, I tried to explain to her the truth.. I really, really tried but I failed every single time. All my efforts to explain were cut short and interrupted with her listing of “proofs” that indeed I was intended to hurt her. What a TORTURE.

anita

Anita, I am sorry for very weird letters in this post, I don’t know how this happened. Unfortunately I cannot edit this. If it’s horrible to read please let me know and I will re-write this.

Anita,
Thank you for reading the whole thread.

Maybe I will complete that post today and be done with this thread- if you prefer to communicate in a new thread

My first thought – better to close this thread. However, it does not bother me writing here, but it is also okay for me to close it.

Yes, the whole thread began with the person I was dating at that time and our conversations made me realize the reality of life with my mother, as the main source of my issues.

 I am sure that if I was born with smart clothes on and a bag of money, she would have respected me too!

I remember you pointing that out, Anita.  I always believed I should have looked different. Even now, I sometimes still have thoughts, seeing an attractive person „ What a different life I would have if I looked like her”, „”If only I had that long and thick hair, my mother would admire me” – just like she admires other people. The admiration in her voice. I still hear it.

When it comes to similarities between our mother (the example with kitchen and my things on the table) I agree with this one:

 Your mother ‘sounds’ like mine, what an amazing similarity: my mother too 1. Complained about my ‘wrongdoings’ but insisted that I do not fix those wrongdoings. 2. Blamed me for thinking what I was not thinking, for feeling what I was not feeling, for having intentions I did not have“

still, I will explain further, this is how I see it and feel it:
She, as she wants to present this situation, just said something casually „This table is so messy, all your stuff there” (of course it was not casual, but she pretends to – the whole point of being passive aggressive) and she now can see I disclosed her aggression,  so now she makes me look crazy – “I only said this one little thing, and now you doing this- showing off, cleaning this, showing me how offended you are when I said something harmless, you do this on purpose so that I look like a bad person, I do everything wrong, I am a bad person, is that what you are implying by doing this right now? Why are you so sensitive, I can’t tell you anything anymore because you are always like that (sensitive). She often added „I will go away, and I won’t be here and you will see..” I put in bold sentences that I used to hear every time, very very often. It was like a patch, something sewn on me. It was my second name. It defined me almost. “I can’t tell you anything anymore. That’s what you are” – That’s who I was. I can almost feel it.
Then there was always a second round, as I liked to call it. In 5-10 minutes she used to come into my room saying something random for example „I bought an orange juice”. I, knowing what will happen next, would be silent and scared. And then she would start „oh so now you won’t speak to me huh? Nice. I am the bad person, I am always the bad person. You are you always like that? Why are you so sensitive? I can’t even say anything to you anymore” Then she would leave and not speak to me for couple days. After that she would make a dinner one day, or bake a pie and I would wake up one morning obviously hungry and came to kitchen and eat, happy she made this food.
The cooking/baking gradually stopped working out when I was in high school/college, as I did not want to play along and felt deceived. She still tried though. Many times I was just hungry, wanted to eat so I did.
I would really really like to recover from this one day.
Thank you for pointing out paranoid personality disorder, and borderline disorder. It fits the description of my mother, and I admit, it is very weird reading the description while knowing what is REALLY means. And it is a nightmare, we both know that because we lived in it.
My mother accused everyone. She accused delivery company of sending emails at 2 am “on purpose” so what she would not read it right away. She accused my cat of saying “meow” only once and just waiting for food in silence, as an indication of malice (not going around and meowing happily like he used to).
It was very exhausting trying to persuade her that people do not mean that, and that I do not mean that.
Other characteristics of paranoid personality disorder:

• Are hypersensitive and take criticism poorly – my mother would remember for years when someone said to her “you’re ugly” when she was 8, or the time her sister told her “you are an oligarch” (not sure why she said that to her, maybe did not mean that or did not fully understand the meaning of this world) – My mother would not speak to her sister for years and quoted this repeatedly as a proof how she (her sister) hurt her. Or the time my cousin called her and said “hello aunt, I am calling you because you have not called recently” – she stopped speaking to my cousin after that because she felt offended that  she (my cousin) suggested that she is the one that should call first.
• Read hidden meanings in the innocent remarks or casual looks of others – the example with the dress and the colleague you have quoted, but also that day, when she wore this dress, the colleague was sitting behind the desk all day and did not get up from her chair because she did not want to get a closer look at my mother’s dress – as she was jealous. When we watched a movie and I wanted to explain “see, this is the actor that played in.. (some other movie she saw)” she scolded me for explaining what she already knows, and that I imply she did not know that and therefore that she is stupid. When she used to look for something in her bag and I asked “what are you looking for there?” she used to yell at me “why are you so mean? can’t I just look for something? what is ALWAYS your problem?” – still after all these years when I sometimes saw her looking for something in her bag I suddenly had the weird feeling in my stomach.

It may sound ridiculous but this was my reality. This is how my mother thinks. Every time she yelled I learned to not react, just be happy, talkative, act normal, because I was scared of round 2 (accusing me of acting offended). It happened frequently though.
It is interesting how you wrote it is quite rare for you to see so many similarities, please correct me if I do not understand it correctly, that after all those stories here on this forum, there are not very much stories where someone’s mother’s personality/behavior is so similar to your mother’s. Do I understand it correctly? Your mother treated you pretty horribly. My mother treated me pretty horribly. They have a lot of behaviors in common: narcissistic, paranoid personality disorder, borderline too. Is it rare to have that particular behaviors all together? I apologize if this is phrased badly.
Anita, you wrote:

 In summary: growing up with a paranoid mother (one fitting, no doubt in my mind, the PPD criteria) is a horrific experience: She didn’t only portray … everyone as malicious, she portrayed me, her own daughter, as malicious, misinterpreting my words (said with no intent to mock her or hurt her, and often said with the intent to help her) as malicious. The result: untold suffering on my part, expecting the worst of people, trusting no one, doubting my own intentions, believing that something is very, very wrong with me, with my thinking itself;  chronic confusing, and distress. When I was absolutely sure that I was not guilty of a particular intent she accused me of, I tried to explain to her the truth.. I really, really tried but I failed every single time. All my efforts to explain were cut short and interrupted with her listing of “proofs” that indeed I was intended to hurt her. What a TORTURE

This was exactly my reality. I still expect the worst of people, I trust no one, although I try to change that every day. More often I doubt my own intentions, cannot make a simple decision, do not know what I really think of something, what is really my opinion – I am confused every day.
Couple of weeks ago a girl I know from work said to me „I don’t think we would ever argue, I think you are such a good person” – I want to believe that, not just think “she does not know me enough”.
This is how I grew up. This is how I was raised. I played along my mom’s game for almost my whole life.
Why did she choose me? Why did she do all those things to ruin me? Is she ever sorry? I don’t think she ever thinks of this like that.
When I was younger I liked to sing, I played the harmonica, I used to write poems and short stories. I was creative, I used to make things. All this was ruined for me. I could be a different person now.
She used to lock me in a sanatorium/hospital for weeks because I was not standing straight. She was forcing me to swim and led me to almost drowning. She made me believe I could not pronounce „s” properly and forced me to visit a doctor once a week. She told me my dad was a rapist in our village and asked me how about we move out and they will divorce. Me answering „yes” agreeing to this would haunt me till the rest of my days. And that was only the beginning of my nightmare.
Anita, once again I thank you. I hope you have found your peace. I am still looking for mine, day by day.

Dear Joanna:

You are very welcome. “My first thought – better to close this thread. However, it does not bother me writing here, but it is also okay for me to close it“- if you feel a significant preference to closing this thread, you are welcome to do so anytime.

Thank you for this post, Joanna. I appreciate the follow up to my post!

“showing me how offended you are when I said something harmless, you do this on purpose so that I look like a bad person, I do everything wrong, I am a bad person, is that what you are implying by doing this right now? Why are you so sensitive“-falsely claiming a lack of intent on her part to offend you… and accusing you of an intent to offend her, an intent you did not have.

“‘oh so now you won’t speak to me huh? Nice. I am the bad person, I am always the bad person. You are you always like that? Why are you so sensitive? I can’t even say anything to you anymore’ Then she would leave and not speak to me for couple days. After that she would make a dinner one day…”-  claiming that you won’t speak to her and choosing to not speak to you.  (After my mother’s rage attacks against me, she wouldn’t speak to me for a few days, she then cooked and eventually talked to me.. until the next rage attack and silent treatment).

“When we watched a movie and I wanted to explain ‘see, this is the actor that played in.. (some other movie she saw)’ she scolded me for explaining what she already knows, and that I imply she did not know that and therefore that she is stupid. When she used to look for something in her bag and I asked ‘what are you looking for there?‘ she used to yell at me “why are you so mean? can’t I just look for something? what is ALWAYS your problem?” – still after all these years when I sometimes saw her looking for something in her bag I suddenly had the weird feeling in my stomach”-

-she heard her own voices telling her that she is bad, or stupid, or criticizing her otherwise (she heard her inner-critic, as it’s called) but she believed- in her paranoid delusion- that you were thinking her thoughts. I suppose we all think or suspect that other people are thinking this or that.. but we are not sure. The paranoid are sure, and they insist that they are right and they argue against and punish you for.. thoughts you don’t have.

“It is interesting how you wrote it is quite rare for you to see so many similarities, please correct me if I do not understand it correctly, that after all those stories here on this forum, there are not very much stories where someone’s mother’s personality/behavior is so similar to your mother’s. Do I understand it correctly?“- in seven years and six months of daily participation on these forums, I came across one member with a severely BPD mother (norit is her screen name) and one member with a combination of BPD and PPD, and that is you.

“Your mother treated you pretty horribly. My mother treated me pretty horribly. They have a lot of behaviors in common: narcissistic, paranoid personality disorder, borderline too. Is it rare to have that particular behaviors all together?“- as rare as one in thousands over the years.

“Why did she choose me? Why did she do all those things to ruin me? Is she ever sorry? I don’t think she ever thinks of this like that“- I want to respond to this and to more of what you shared Wed morning (it is Tues afternoon now).

Again, Joanna, thank you for writing back to me.

anita

Dear Joanna:

I meant your mother, not you! Sorry, my mistake.. I guess I am tired. Be back to you tomorrow.

anita

Dear Joanna:

About birthdays: “My mother told me once she never had birthday parties“- my mother never mentioned having had birthday parties growing up, not that I remember. Her mother died when she was 9, her father was an alcoholic and a womanizer who neglected his children, so she ended up in an orphanage-like institution and later, she lived with a sadistic older sister who terribly abused her: a tragic childhood.

It made me smile reading that you loved strawberries cake so much. But then, I felt sad reading how your mother, out of spite, spoiled your enjoyment of the case: serving it not on your birthday, when you asked for it, but in December, and then saying: “‘There, you have your cake. You won’t leave me alone, bothering me every day“. No wonder, you “would just eat some of it for couple of days and it went bad“.

“When I remembered and got her a present she did not like it… Those gifts were often thrown somewhere“- I can relate: my mother didn’t appreciate the gifts I gave her as a child, or as an adult (except for one gift, later in life: a pair of special gloves for her rheumatoid-arthritis hands).

“Once I made a reservation in the pizzeria and paid for it, and invited her to go for a pizza – she said she does not feel well and don’t want to go“- she refused or rejected your gifts, so understandably you felt that neither the gifts… nor the gift-giver had any value to her.

“Actually Christmas was similar, us two, sometimes her partner, sitting in bad moods… She was always talking about her mother, her brother-  how they did not invite her (us) for Christmas and how no one wants us“- like your mother, my mother- as an adult- was mostly a wounded child, focused on her pain and seeing NONE of mine: extremely self-focused, as if there was only one person and one pain in the whole wide world: she and her pain.

“It’s fair to say she despised me”- yes, my mother despised me too.

“It is interesting how you wrote it is quite rare for you to see so many similarities… narcissistic, paranoid personality disorder, borderline too. Is it rare to have that particular behaviors all together?“- I forgot to mention Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD). My mother fit all three: BPD, HPD and PPD. I read about a lot of mothers in the forums since May 2015, many unwell mothers who reminded me of my mother in this or that respect, sometimes a few aspects per mother, including in my current communication with another member. It happened … maybe a handful of times that a member’s mother was similar to mine in more than a few aspects. I’d say that growing up with my mother gave me a wide-range, quite comprehensive experience of what it means to end up with a bad mother.

“This was exactly my reality. I still expect the worst of people, I trust no one… More often I doubt my own intentions, cannot make a simple decision, do not know what I really think of something, what is really my opinion – I am confused every day“- all of this has been MY reality (much progress made though). I remember very well how very difficult it’s been for me to make decisions: there was hardly ever such thing as a simple decision to make (so I avoided making decisions and let others make them for me.. to my great disadvantage). And the CONFUSION.. I hated that chronic confusion.

“Couple of weeks ago a girl I know from work said to me: ‘.. I think you are such a good person‘ – I want to believe that, not just think ‘she does not know me enough‘”- I very much relate, for the greatest majority of my life.

“Why did she choose me? Why did she do all those things to ruin me? Is she ever sorry? I don’t think she ever thinks of this like that” – I don’t think my mother thinks like that. She’d say that I ruined her, that I chose to ruin her and that I must feel sorry forevermore.

“When I was younger I liked to sing, I played the harmonica, I used to write poems and short stories. I was creative, I used to make things. All this was ruined for me. I could be a different person now“- I would be a different person myself, a totally different person, if grew up with a good mother. I wouldn’t have suffered so much and wasted my youth and intelligence and creativity, etc.

“She used to lock me in a sanatorium/hospital for weeks… properly and forced me to visit a doctor once a week“- My mother told me that when I was a younger child, she rushed me to the health clinic or hospital often, and was told by doctors to stop taking me there “for every little thing”. She did not lock me in a hospital for weeks though… Maybe you can add another diagnosis for your mother: Munchausen Syndrome by proxy.

“She told me my dad was a rapist in our village“- my mother told me that my father was a child-rapist and that he may rape or molest my sister if he was left alone with her (my sister was a baby at the time).

As you can see, Joanna: we do have lots in common as far as who our mothers are and we both suffered for it tremendously. They are similar in the nature, the complexity and extent of their mental illness.

I hope to read from you soon, in the next day or two…

anita