Anita,

Please take your time, it’s totally Okay for me.

I was preparing to sleep and decided to came back for a moment

You are welcome and thank you, precious Joanna

and say how I wish I would be so good with words and expressing how I appreciate people.

I will say I am grateful you are here.

good night, sister!

have a good day sister 🙂

Anita, I have just read your post and will respond tomorrow (10:07 pm here)

Sending smiles 🙂

Anita,

but you are good with words, in my experience of reading your words.

Thank you 🙂

I have a long, long history of struggling with words, as in: what to say (or type), what words not to say..  what didn’t I say (what did I forget to respond to) but should have; going over my words in my head to detect wrong words, or missing words.

I too, struggle with words and I understand you very well. I sometimes delete words when I think they are too much.. not appropriate. Re-living conversations thinking what I should have (not) said. Not a good habit, I guess.

I am making progress on this matter, but I still struggle. For example, only a moment ago, when I read the beginning of your post before last, where you wrote: “Anita, thank you“, I thought to myself (with some distress), paraphrased: Joanna said “thank you” at the beginning of her post, but I didn’t start this post with “you are welcome”! Did I say “you are welcome” in my last post yesterday? I should check to see if I did!

Please do not worry about this. Nothing bad will happen if you do not respond to something or use wrong words. I appreciate your posts very much and I am not critical of them.

What is this all about? It is about my mother policing my words, accusing me of words I said and words I didn’t say and should have said, accusing me of intentions that I did NOT have when I said this word or the other word, accusing me of purposefully not saying what I should have said, etc.

Most people are not like your (and my) mother. Not judgemental, not accusing of bad intentions. I say this to myself too and I think it’s good to remember.

*I noticed (as I often do when I write about my mother) that right above, I used the present tense: “It is about my mother…”- I didn’t have any contact with her for nine years and yet, her mental representative in my brain is still policing my words.

Do you sometimes use past tense when talking about difficulties related to your mother’s abuse?

As far as words of affection, like using “precious” in regard to you, that felt awkward, uncomfortable, but it doesn’t feel as uncomfortable now, to use it… precious Joanna (see? I used it again and … I feel fine!)

Thank you for your honesty! I really like this word and I am happy you wrote it to me and that you are more comfortable with using it 🙂

good, remind yourself of this repeatedly, as you walk in the park, and at other times.

I will!

“‘Children…  maintain that this psychological defense mechanism—known as dissociative amnesia”...I remember thinking ‘That’s why I have so little memories from childhood’“- I read the same thing and thought the same thing. 

we are very much alike and also have similar realizations 🙂

I can relate (not surprising). I had trouble myself putting together into one person the two extreme images of my mother: the cold, cruel, angry, hateful one… and the warm, kind, affectionate .. seemingly loving one. Which one was my mother? And consequently, who am I: If she is the hateful one, then I am her victim; if she is the loving one.. then she is my victim.

I remember thinking not too long ago: if my mother was always bad, consistently bad (cruel, hateful, etc.)- my life would have been so much easier because I would have known she was bad and I would have completely stayed away from her, not having her in my life at all. But because of the mix.. I was a mess, didn’t know who is whom and what to do.

That is exactly what I was thinking.. Seemed to me I realized much later than I should..that my mother is in fact abusing me. I resent myself for it. I had those thoughts in early childhood, yes, that I hate her and she is evil, but once my parents got divorced and she started talking about my dad’s drinking, how it was “impossible to live with that men” I was so gaslighted, more and more each day, because I started spending more time with her – living with her only. One time my dad came to visit me and she started yelling at him, he was just sitting here and listening. I started crying and she told him “see what you did to a child??!” and he.. didn’t know what to say, he was silent. I knew I was crying because she was yelling but I didn’t tell her that, I .. knew I had to play her game: that I cry because he came here, because I saw him. But I knew that wasn’t true. What she did to my mind is terrifying to me!

another aspect of same mother= same daughter experience… it is amazing how much of us is formed as a result of our childhood (aka formative years) experience with our mothers.

Nothing more to add here. I agree, it’s amazing. I sometimes wonder am I similar to some of my ancestors, grandparents? Who am I, what would be my talents etc if it wasn’t for the abuse shaping most of my personality.

– both our mothers were very fragile, unstable, unpredictable, suspicious, paranoid.. quick to detect anger when there is none, and react angrily: accusing, persecuting… and the persecuted smiles so to.. not further disturb the one already so very disturbed.

Sad truth.

Dear Joanna:

“Do you sometimes use past tense when talking about difficulties related to your mother’s abuse?“- yes. I often start with the past tense, but as I get more emotional, I slip into the present tense.

“Most people are not like your (and my) mother. Not judgmental, not accusing of bad intentions“-

– notice (in the following) how deep my mother’s criticism and judgment is embedded in my brain: when I read your question (above, in the very beginning of my post), I had a distressing thought: that you (Joanna) were criticizing me for using the present tense when talking about my mother, saying something like: oh, you (anita) are not that smart or advanced, are you, if you are still using the present tense; who are you to give other people advice.. when you are still sick…! 

Please do not be alarmed by this, Joanna. This is my mother’s voice (the italicized), not yours. I can hear her (the italicized) and as I typed her words, I had so much more criticism to type: I could go on and on for a long time, criticizing myself angrily (my face expressed anger as I typed). I felt identified with the voice, it was… my voice: one she implanted in my brain but now, it is my angry, critical voice.

I remember my mother criticizing me for maybe an hour at a time, maybe longer, standing there in front of me and a barrage of critical, angry words came out of her mouth like pressured water out of a broken water faucet, flooding me with insults and words of humiliation. I don’t remember all the insults, only a few. But I remember that there were lots of them, lots of insulting sentences and descriptions. She intended to insult, humiliate and shame me and she did a good job at it. She was a hard worker, diligent, went the extra mile.

Yesterday, at the time I stopped typing in your thread (not submitted but copied and pasted elsewhere), I felt that maybe you (Joanna) really did criticize me for not being mentally healthy enough to be here, on these forums, addressing other people’s mental health. I truly didn’t know if that’s what you thought: I didn’t feel as distressed  as I used to feel when projecting my mother’s voice into other people, but I felt somewhat distressed. Fast forward to this morning, I don’t feel distressed at the thought that you might be thinking this.

As an answer to my critical voice in regard to my own mental health and addressing other members’ mental health in these forums, I say: these are self-help forums: we help ourselves and we help each other. It is easier to address other people’s issues than it is to address our own, but addressing our own issues (as I am doing in this post) is what healing and self-help is about. It takes humility and courage, and trust that the person I am communicating with (Joanna) is a good person.

And now, to the rest of your yesterday’s post (I didn’t read most of it yet, and will read and respond part by part):

“I too, struggle with words and I understand you very well. I sometimes delete words when I think they are too much.. not appropriate. Re-living conversations thinking what I should have (not) said. Not a good habit, I guess“- I thought you did (I noticed in your writing), this is what prompted me to bring up the topic to begin with. I thought that we have this issue in common, and maybe we can help each other to weaken this habit.

“Please do not worry about this. Nothing bad will happen if you do not respond to something, or use wrong words. I appreciate your posts very much and I am not critical of them“- thank you. The worry is there because something bad did happen when I did not respond to something she expected me to respond to, and when I used words that she told me were wrong. She did not appreciate me and  she was very critical of me.

“Most people are not like your (and my) mother. Not judgmental, not accusing of bad intentions. I say this to myself too and I think it’s good to remember“- I said it to myself many times, I even expressed this in other threads. It is true.

“We are very much alike and also have similar realizations“- yes, we do!

I wrote to you: “I remember thinking not too long ago: if my mother was always bad, consistently bad (cruel, hateful, etc.)- my life would have been so much easier…“, your response: “That is exactly what I was thinking. Seemed to me I realized much later than I should that my mother is in fact abusing me. I resent myself for it“- resent yourself for being fooled for too long, for not being smart enough to realize the truth earlier on?

“I had those thoughts in early childhood, yes, that I hate her and she is evil, but once my parents got divorced and she started talking about my dad’s drinking, how it was ‘impossible to live with that men’ I was so gaslighted, more and more each day, because I started spending more time with her – living with her only“-he became the bad guy, and she became, in this context, the good guy?

“One time my dad came to visit me and she started yelling at him, he was just sitting here and listening. I started crying and she told him ‘see what you did to a child??!‘ and he didn’t know what to say, he was silent. I knew I was crying because she was yelling but I didn’t tell her that, I .. knew I had to play her game: that I cry because (of him).. But I knew that wasn’t true. What she did to my mind is terrifying to me!”-

-she confused for you (as my mother confused for me), the issue of Cause and Effect. “Cause and effect is the relationship between two things when one thing makes something else happen. For example, if we eat too much food and do not exercise, we gain weight. Eating food without exercising is the ’cause’, weight gain is the ‘effect’… Looking for the reason why things happen (cause/effect) is a basic human drive…. essential in learning the basic ways the world works” (online).

One of the very few memories I have of what my mother told me was that one time when she hit my face with her open hand, right, left, right left… she then stopped, looked at her tired hands and arms and accusatorily said to me: Look what you did to me: you hurt my arms! – in Reality, the Cause was her choice (however impulsive) to hit me, and the Effect was that her arms and hands hurt. But in her Mind, she made a short cut, removing from the situation her choice to hit me.

“I sometimes wonder am I similar to some of my ancestors, grandparents?“- not more than you are similar to me.. I believe.

“Who am I, what would be my talents etc. if it wasn’t for the abuse shaping most of my personality“- depending on what kind of abuse you would have been born into. Your abusive home, my own.. are two abusive homes in many millions all over the world.

anita

Anita,

– Notice… how deep my mother’s criticism and judgment is embedded in my brain: … I had a distressing thought: that you (Joanna) were criticizing me for using the present tense when talking about my mother, saying something like: oh, you (anita) are not that smart or advanced, are you 

This is my mother’s voice (the italicized), not yours… I felt identified with the voice, it was… my voice: one she implanted in my brain but now, it is my angry, critical voice.

Yesterday… I felt that maybe you (Joanna) really did criticize me for not being mentally healthy enough to be here, on these forums, addressing other people’s mental health. I truly didn’t know if that’s what you thought

Thank you for sharing this with me, Anita. I feel sad I have caused this. I did not have any criticism in mind. You have helped a lot of people here on this forum, including me and I will repeat this: I am grateful you are here and I admire your wisdom.

The reason behind my question was: when I read that you wrote „it is about my mother” in present tense I started thinking what it is that I always think or say in such situations (being triggered or having some difficulty because of her) and I think it’s mostly: „I feel triggered/angry because she often used to…. (do this and that)” and wasn’t sure if I see it as present tense or past tense. Clearly it’s about past behaviors but the emotion I feel is now. Some of those emotions I understand more so there are times I can say „I used to be triggered by this because my mother did this and that”. I was curious how you would elaborate on this topic – not sure if I understood it correctly, therefore I asked.

My own example of my mother’s judgement and criticism inside my head: after writing this to you the other day, my own words: “Most people are not like your (and my) mother. Not judgmental, not accusing of bad intentions. I say this to myself too and I think it’s good to remember“ –  I woke up today and thought: “I should not have written this. Anita will think I am giving her advice, telling her something she already knows when she clearly sees and knows a lot more than I do”. I hope it did not sound like this. I was aware I was stating the obvious but my intention was to be friendly and comforting.

Another example: Once I asked my mother “are you in a good mood today?” and she told me “what? why would I have a bad mood? are you implying I have moods? Why are you bullying me all the time?!!” and then she gave me silent treatment for days. I never asked her this again in my life. I have a colleague at work who likes to ask this question “what’s your mood today?”. My first reaction was saying to myself “Whoa!! what is his problem? Accusing me of having moods?” I can only trust he is being friendly, because the feeling my mother taught me is so strong, I will always be a little suspicious hearing this question. It’s exhausting.

As an answer to my critical voice in regard to my own mental health and addressing other members’ mental health in these forums, I say: these are self-help forums: we help ourselves and we help each other.

I agree. It’s beautiful.

It is easier to address other people’s issues than it is to address our own, but addressing our own issues (as I am doing in this post) is what healing and self-help is about. It takes humility and courage, and trust that the person I am communicating with (Joanna) is a good person.

Good to read this, Anita. Again, I feel sad it happened and caused a distress.

I thought you did (I noticed in your writing), this is what prompted me to bring up the topic to begin with. I thought that we have this issue in common, and maybe we can help each other to weaken this habit.

I already started writing more spontaneously because of your encouragement. Trying to remember about this while talking to people.

thank you. The worry is there because something bad did happen when I did not respond to something she expected me to respond to, and when I used words that she told me were wrong. She did not appreciate me and  she was very critical of me.

You are welcome 🙂 I find it very difficult too, convincing myself people are not that critical of me as I thought.

“We are very much alike and also have similar realizations“- yes, we do!

🙂

resent yourself for being fooled for too long, for not being smart enough to realize the truth earlier on?

Yes, I think I was ashamed of it when you asked me (one of the last posts on this thread at the time when I still lived with her) paraphrased “did you ever lived apart… did it ever occur to you to move out … “. I was ashamed because it did not ever occur to me. She was acting like my friend (she was giving me a ride home from distant place where I gave lessons, so that I wouldn’t be cold!). She even used to say this to me when I was little “always remember – when I yell at you, it means I love you!”. I admired you, Anita for your story, your realizing your mother was abusing you and I felt.. not smart enough because I couldn’t see it for so long.

he became the bad guy, and she became, in this context, the good guy?

She saved me from him, because he was giving me nervous ticks, that’s her story.

One of the very few memories I have of what my mother told me was that one time when she hit my face with her open hand, right, left, right left… she then stopped, looked at her tired hands and arms and accusatorily said to me: Look what you did to me: you hurt my arms! – in Reality, the Cause was her choice (however impulsive) to hit me, and the Effect was that her arms and hands hurt. But in her Mind, she made a short cut, removing from the situation her choice to hit me.

The accusation does not shock me. It is something my mother would totally do if..she ever hit me (but she did not ever hit me, which is interesting knowing how our mothers are similar and the fact that my mother did, in fact hit my dad, so it was not something she wouldn’t do). However, hitting a child is shocking to me. Abuse – mental abuse is something you cannot see, prove, they could be aggressive verbally and then deny it – for my mother it was perfect, she could insult me any way she could and then say she did not say such thing. But hitting is something they cannot deny. However, now thinking about this.. My mother’s story is that my dad was hitting her (and he did, they both did) but according to her he was the only one. So she denied hitting him too. And I never realized she hit him, although I clearly saw it with my eyes!  My version was: my dad is hitting my mom (not the other way around). Amazing.

Anita,

You are not responsible for my projections into other people  (I am less likely to project my mother into you than I am likely to project her into other people!). What I heard was not you talking… I heard her talking.

I appreciate this and thank you.

Please take you time, I know it’s a long post.

Merry Christmas, Anita!

You are welcome!

I guess it’s good the snow has melted in your area. Here it’s very sunny today.

Sending smiles 🙂

Anita,

How exciting! The snow is completely melted this Christmas Day morning and I can do my usual walk later on, yeah!

What a great news 🙂 Enjoy your day!

thank you. I too am grateful that you are here and I admire your wisdom, particularly in the context of the two of us having such very similar and unique (not in a good way) mothers.

Your welcome 🙂

I think that the idea that healing=feeling nothing when past abuse is remembered or imagined, is not an idea that makes any sense. Not feeling anything in this context is a result of dissociation, not of healing.

That’s interesting. I always thought healing, releasing from trauma would be when I am able to feel nothing when thinking about painful memories. And I always feel guilty I cannot process it that way.

this very thought I just italicized does get triggered when I am given advice by members- when I didn’t ask for advice.

In that case, good that you shared it with me.

a good therapist will not give the patient/ client advice (give the patient answers to his/ her questions), but help the patient reach her own answers. Unrequested advice/ answers is a turn off to many people, making people feel … not trusted to be able to answer their own questions.

I rarely give advise as I rarely.. came up with any..  but that is good to know as well

 it’s like we have the SAME mother: paranoid, eager to defend herself against imagined accusations.

I can hear my mother, in my mind’s ear, saying in this context (and I know that my mother is not identical to yours, although very similar): you think that I am stupid? that I don’t know what you are trying to do, trying to fool me, to trick me, to ridicule me… well, it is you who are a Big Nothing, a Big Zero…. (very elaborated)….!

The paranoid is such a mystery to me. I was taught to assume, we both were, from our mothers, but the difference is we know they’re not our thoughts, but theirs (like in my assumption of my colleague’s intentions – I know it’s my mother’s voice, it’s my habit, but it’s not my inner voice, not my thoughts. The difference is my mother (your mother too) believes it, as you once mentioned, Anita, quite recently (“the paranoid believes”). Because she invents those thoughts, she is the source of those thoughts and has absolutely no doubts about them!

I feel such a relief since I do not have explain things to her. I used to justify people’s actions so many times to her.. “no, I don’t think she/he meant that” “she/he probably didn’t do it on purpose” I always felt like she sees the world/people differently but couldn’t fully understand what it is exactly that is wrong with her. One time she went to the place where you can extend the contract for internet at home and she told me the guy was very talkative, nice, she was excited as he gave her so many good offers and seemed like she was excited about just talking to him. Next day she went to sign the contract and she didn’t… she told me “I went today and looked, he barely saw me.. and I thought: ‘what, does he not like me anymore?’” It was then that I realized something is very wrong with her.. As in she didn’t understand it was this guy’s job to give her offers, he was probably talkative, in a good mood, yes, but what he was doing was his job! And she wanted to sign this just because..it was so fun to talk to this guy. I still can’t fully understand this situation, it happened more.

I always wondered about my mother’s silent treatments, starting in the evenings or nights (after a raging episode), with her sitting all alone in the dark, serious expression on her face, looked like being in a dark mood… silent for days, gradually returning to normal until the next rage and silence.

I also see my mother’s face, her face expression.

gradually returning to normal

Yes, this gradual…process of slowly returning. First she could speak one word, a quiet word as she was still not able to ..fully speak to me. As if she had real trouble speaking! Then she would for example offer me a dinner but still in neutral voice, but I already knew she was “coming back”. But I knew I couldn’t be too much excited, I also acted neutral, responding quietly but politely. Then after couple of hours, maybe next day she fully “recovered” from silent treatment, was fully herself, smiling, happy, talkative, bringing me clothes or baking cakes.

During silent days my life was on pause. I did not exist. I was there, but I wasn’t ..alive. I cried, I used to go somewhere just to let time pass and get through this somehow, until she speaks to me again. When I was somewhere, at the cinema or with some people, all I could think was..my mother. Sometimes I realized how ridiculous it is, I thought “I bet not one of those people is now thinking about their mothers like I do, having only one wish to happiness -her speaking to me again”

it is only in the last few days that I reacted better when asked how I was feeling, being more aware that I was projecting my- my-mother’s suspicions into other people.

Good 🙂 I wish you more of those moments. I am happy whenever it happens, when I can overcome this feeling. I tell myself: I am different, I was only taught to make those assumptions but I am lucky I am not paranoid like her!

 I was angry at the time, angry with you for still living with her, and out of that anger, I wrote to you what I shouldn’t have. I apologize, it was insensitive and obviously, it only increased your shame. I regret it. Since sometime after that time, I am careful to not reply to members when I feel anger or annoyance.

I appreciate it, Anita, thank you. I know I wasn’t honest with myself, I couldn’t see the truth. I was justifying why I still lived with her, explaining myself when the truth was I just couldn’t move, I was stuck. I was afraid of her reaction, afraid how I manage by myself, me, a slouch. Other people started families and build houses, they worked in big companies, but not me, it was not for me. When I got a job in 2016, a good job, not great well paid but very good for start and then I quit because of my nervous ticks, she said to me “you’ll find something else maybe.. maybe not that good, but something. cleaning maybe” – meaning I got this job by chance, did not fully earn it, it just happened to me, I was lucky. Next time when I look for a job will probably get whatever I deserve which is..something much less. How could I believe in myself that I can move out, work and pay rent? Be my own person, when I always “needed” my mother? I was not honest to admit that to myself.

Happy I got away from this mindset. I am so good at being my own person now.

my mother told me she loved me no matter how bad I was. And she did a lot for me, for example, she took the bus and walked a long way for no other reason but to buy me my favorite cake, … If it was love that motivated her, it was a very, very short-sighted, temporary kind of love, one that evaporates whenever she got suspicious of me, which happened way too often.

I read about love bombing in narcissistic abuse and it fit perfectly in my case. Also I think the purpose of this was to convince me (and herself) how good of a mother she was. There were times I thought she loved me (still confused about it) but I was always disappointed when she changed after couple of days, and wasn’t so sure about this anymore (her loving me).

 I was not at all planning to get her into trouble for hitting me, I am sure of it (I was being hit at the time!). In her mind, I was the villain who had an evil plan to hurt her.

Again, a mystery to me how the paranoid’s mind works. Maybe her own thoughts from the time she was being hit as a child, but still, not being able to doubt at least – if this is real or made up by her sick mind.. Part of me feels sorry for them, for seeing the world they way they see it, never knowing how people can be good, kind, without hidden agenda.