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November 29, 2024 at 11:52 am #439800shinnenParticipant
Hi Helcat,
I’ll quote a passage from a book I’ve been working on, well, for a couple of years now. I would like to leave it to my daughter and granddaughter.
“All in all – I am the ephemeral seeking the eternal.
He chases after enlightenment like a man dying of thirst chases a mirage. After 30 years the fire still burns brightly. Not every day brought a new promise, but he knew that the next one was just around the corner, and for a short time he would have hope; hope that this time he would discover the path to the great Satori, the all encompassing understanding that would allow him to carry on in his remaining days, no longer afraid of suffering and death, sure that when death came he would face it with acceptance and peace; regardless of whether Macbeth’s declaration about life is true or not. But, not today; today, yesterday’s hopes had faded to disappointment. Sure, he had had many satoris; but the great one still eluded him.”
When I look back on my life, it seems like a steady stream of obsessions, all sharing the same end, of becoming eternal, as crazy as it sounds. I sometimes do things for a long time, before realizing why I’m REALLY doing them; but this one was a shocker.
… john
November 29, 2024 at 12:07 pm #439801PeterParticipantAnita
<font color=”blue”> However, considering it from the lens of the Eternal might provide a different perspective because the Eternal encompasses all, even the parts we struggle to understand or accept.. doesn’t it?</font>
I believe it does.
Its a work, not to work, in progress. 🙂Its disconcerting when those close to you realities and the reality are so different from yours. I image them saying the same about my reality…. Another post talked about disappointment and asking advice on when to speak and when to stay silent. I think behind that is this need to be seen and heard, which the current happenings have made even more difficult and likely behind me being just ok and not feeling myself.
November 29, 2024 at 12:07 pm #439802shinnenParticipantHi Anita,
Yes, I think we can, make it a better place, or at the very least not make it worse. I once said to one of my teachers, ‘I can not end the wars, I can not end starvation, the suffering will go on no matter what I do; so why try.’ And she said, ‘No, you can’t end the terrible things that men inflict on each other; but you can do a little, and that’s worth doing.’ Of course she was right. After that, I began to feel that I can be like the heavy water in a nuclear reactor; maybe not stopping the madness, but at least slowing it down.”
…… john
November 29, 2024 at 3:50 pm #439810HelcatParticipantHi John
Thank you for clarifying.
That sounds like a great book. What a treasure to leave to your family! 😊
Would you say that you share the fear of suffering and death with the character in your book? If so, what scares you about it?
I have a little experience with almost dying. It might be of interest to you.
I drowned in a river and was resuscitated as a teenager. It was very peaceful and I wasn’t afraid.
Knowing how to handle death I believe is important and it is something that isn’t often discussed in western cultures.
I was prepared for drowning due to childhood trauma. I trained myself in breathing techniques used by free divers to survive the trauma. Because I was used to the experience of not breathing, I knew that the best way to survive these experiences is to stay calm. The more scared you are, the more oxygen is used. The trick is to relax and let your body shut down naturally. I actually had a near death experience here. First my mind went dark and quiet. Then there was white everywhere and a sense of peace.
I was happy to have escaped my family situation by then. I was enjoying my life and I was young. I had no goals or dreams. I had achieved all of them by simply escaping and being happy.
I thought that if it is my time, it is my time. If it is not my time, I will be saved. I was with friends that I trusted would try to save me.
Maybe I experienced that trauma, just so I would survive drowning? Who knows?
I came close to dying in my mid 20s also. This time was not peaceful, I was in pain and suffering. I could not walk. I could not stand. I could barely breathe. I was suffering from blood loss. I was scared and I both wanted to die and did not want to die. I was alone. I didn’t understand what was happening to me. The doctors didn’t seem to care enough to even find out. I didn’t trust them, because doctors had previously failed me.
It was at this time I met someone online who inspired me. Someone who cared and was brilliant (who I ended up marrying). For the first time in my life I wanted a future for myself. I had dreams I had yet to achieve. Simple dreams, but dreams nonetheless. I simply wasn’t ready to go. So I fought tooth and nail and hoped for recovery because no one wants to live like that.
Although, the last experience was harder I feel that I grew a lot because of it. I became more understanding of the suffering of others. I learned to value my health. I learned to prioritise what I cared about. I learned how to overcome hardship. I learned to adapt the things I loved to what I could actually achieve. The experience helped me to mature, without it I’m sure that I would not be as good a mother.
I have had a couple of friends in their 70s. I have seen them struggle with health issues. Seen the near death experiences. Seen them slowly die. At a certain point when someone slowly dies they are no longer afraid of death. There are things worse than death (loss of function and pain, I would say the former is worse than the latter). But there are also things more important than even that worth staying alive for (love).
There is the benefit that end of life care they start giving out painkillers more freely too.
There is a lesson that is learned. When you get majorly ill you need to get back to your normal routine as quickly as possible. Use painkillers if you have to. It is much harder to regain lost functionality than it is to preserve existing functionality. Use it or lose it as the saying goes. Staying active is the secret to living a good long life.
I think that we all have our obsessions. You are not alone there. 😊
Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏
November 29, 2024 at 4:34 pm #439811shinnenParticipantHi Helcat,
It’s not really a character in my book, just me musing. I suspect that I fear the fear, more than I fear death itself. As the old expression goes, we have nothing to fear but fear itself. I firmly believe this. I also think that knowing that you’re not afraid of dying is a great great thing, a very very freeing thing. I’ve read that the fear of death is the fear the ego has of disappearing, and that the animals, other than us, do not have this fear. It sounds reasonable; but, obviously, I have no idea if it’s true. I think you’re a very mature lady. And you now have a friend in their 80’s.
….. john
November 29, 2024 at 4:46 pm #439812shinnenParticipantHi Anita,
I don’t know who originally said, “I am the ephemeral seeking the eternal.” It just occurred to me, out of the blue, many moons ago.
…. john
November 30, 2024 at 4:14 pm #439830HelcatParticipantHi John
That is very kind of you to say! It would be an honour to call you a friend.
I suspected that it was kind of like an autobiography but I didn’t want to assume. I’m sure that the book is great! 😊
I feel like fear is human nature. It can be a warning. But sometimes the system misfires.
I wouldn’t say that I’m not afraid of pain and dying. Sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not. I can cope with quite a bit of pain, but I do become afraid of it at a certain point. And whilst I found peace in one experience, the other I didn’t. What is the difference? One I was alone, one I was scared and didn’t know what was happening, one I was past my limit in pain, one I wasn’t ready to let go. I think that fear in this circumstance is natural.
Hmm your goal reminds me of my own cross to bear. 😂 My goal is to overcome an intrusive thought. Then I will feel like my healing is complete. What if this is an intrusive thought for you too? It is very much like pushing a stone up a hill. My determination to overcome it causes the fear of it.
You are already very wise and have learned many things. What if you are already complete? What if you have already succeeded and all you have to do is stop trying to overcome and just be?
I feel like animals are afraid of pain and dying. Perhaps not all animals, but those that are emotionally complex enough to do so. My dog almost died recently and during a check up he was afraid of the vet that treat him when he was in the hospital. I suspect that he remembers the experience and the emotions he felt. He also suffers from doggy racism after being attacked by specific breeds. Yellow golden retrievers and German shepherds stay away! 😂
The way that I see things is that genetics, memories and actions of a person last past their lifetime. I have never met my husband’s father who passed away but our son reminds him of him. The memories of his father are present in his thoughts and character and he will pass these onto our son.
I was watching a tv show and it had some themes that I found interesting. Love and hate being two sides of the same coin. Humanity being self destructive fighting itself. It supposed that choice is the problem but I disagree. It reminded me of Buddhism. The middle way. People can do bad things out of love and good things out of hatred or even in spite of it. Perhaps the answer is simply practicing restraint and trying our best. It is all that we can hope to do as we don’t see the future, we never really know how something will turn out.
Sorry for rambling. I really enjoy talking with you! I’d love to hear more of your thoughts and learn from you. You have honestly helped me more than you know. 😊
Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏
November 30, 2024 at 4:18 pm #439831HelcatParticipantOh I forgot to add because I’m tired. Perhaps the only thing that is lost at death is self-awareness? Sleep is pretty similar.
November 30, 2024 at 8:45 pm #439838anitaParticipantDear Shinnen/ John: I don’t know how I missed your posts addressed to me on this thread until just now. I will read and reply tomorrow.
anita
December 1, 2024 at 7:45 am #439848shinnenParticipantHi Helcat,
Oh yes, the clip I posted is autobiographical, the rest of ‘the book’ is mostly random thoughts I’ve collected over the years; not particularly interesting, and rather dry reading. I don’t have many ‘intrusive thoughts’. I was an analytical chemist all of my life; and that, along with Theravadin training and other disciplines, have taught me to view my thoughts and opinions with a grain of salt.
I am a LONG way from complete, believe me. I’m afraid it’ll take many many more life times; and since I see reincarnation as one of those concepts I have no reason to believe, or disbelieve, I doubt that I’ll ever be ‘complete. Fortunately, what I believe doesn’t change anything; so, maybe, there’s still hope for me😉
I’m not sure that fear of pain, and fear of dying, are the same thing for most animals. For example: Humans interpret a serious injury as cause for alarm; but I’m not convinced that the other animals make that connection; that they react instinctively to pain/injury without thoughts as to where it might lead . However, this is COMPLETE conjecture on my part.
So, how much choice (freedom to choose) do you think we really have? Does 3 possibilities equal 3 possible choices. This is not a trick question?
You wrote, “Perhaps the only thing that is lost at death is self-awareness? Sleep is pretty similar.” In the sense that we’ve lost awareness, I assume so; but of course, no one awakens from death, or do they😉
I’m glad that you find my thoughts helpful. One of the codes I live by is what the Buddha (supposedly*) said to his disciples on his death bed, ‘Do not take as truth anything anyone, including me, tells you, find out for yourself.’ I think this is good advise; because one cannot truly embrace what they have not found out, for themselves, to be true/useful/???
Take care of yourself,
* I say supposedly, because I doubt anyone knows what the Buddha actually said, or taught, at all; since it was 300 years after his death before his followers descendants committed to text what was passed down to them.
….. johnDecember 1, 2024 at 9:07 am #439850anitaParticipantDear Peter:
I didn’t notice the post you addressed to me the day before yesterday until this Sun morning.
You responded to “the Eternal encompasses all, even the parts we struggle to understand or accept.. doesn’t it?” with your usual witty humor, which I enjoy: I believe it does. It’s a work, not to work, in progress. 🙂”-
– I like your clever play on words! Indeed, embracing the Eternal is work-no work in progress. Thanks for sharing your thoughtful insight and the smile.
“Its disconcerting when (the realities of) those close to you are so different from yours. I image them saying the same about my reality.. Another post talked about disappointment and asking advice on when to speak and when to stay silent. I think behind that is this need to be seen and heard, which the current happenings have made even more difficult and likely behind me being just ok and not feeling myself“-
– I want to thoroughly process what you expressed here: you are feeling unsettled by how the realities of those close to you are so different from your own. This highlights a sense of disconnection and difficulty in finding common ground. You imagine that others might feel the same way about your reality. This shows an awareness of mutual misunderstanding and the complexity of human interactions.
Behind the struggle to decide when to speak up and when to stay silent, you identify a fundamental human need, which is to be seen and heard. This highlights the importance of validation (which involves affirming that what a person feels or thinks is important and reasonable), and recognition (which involves giving credit, praise, or appreciation for someone’s efforts, contributions, or characteristics) in human relationships.
You note that current happenings have made it even more difficult to feel understood and connected. This suggests that external factors, possibly related to broader social/ political or global events, are exacerbating feelings of isolation and disconnection, and that these challenges are likely behind your feeling of being “just okay” and not feeling entirely yourself. This indicates an emotional toll and a longing for deeper connection and understanding.
I can understand, Peter, how difficult, even tormenting, it can be when the realities of those close to you differ so much from your own: I grew up in this kind of situation where my mother’s reality was that I was a bad girl who needed to be punished, while my reality (an objectively true reality) was that I was a loving girl who needed to be loved. Of course, my most fundamental human need to be seen and heard as I was, was severely unmet.
The need to be seen and heard is such a fundamental part of our human experience, and current political circumstances (recent US elections, for one) amplify those feelings of disconnection and disorientation for many. In regard to politics, when I talk to people with a very different reality, I emphasize what we do agree about, the portions of our realities that we do share. (Although, I need to stop trying too hard to be liked in real-life, so hard that I compromise my authenticity).
Your insight into the balance between speaking up and staying silent is spot on. Navigating when to share and when to hold back can be tough, especially when you’re trying to honor both your own needs and the dynamics of your relationships.
It’s important to take care of yourself and find ways to reconnect with what makes you feel truly like yourself. Whether it’s through personal reflection, creative expression, or finding moments of genuine connection with those who do understand and appreciate your reality.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and reflections. You are welcome to share more specifically about the nature of the disconnection, if you feel comfortable about doing so, here, in a new thread, or in another digital platform, and you will find people with larger portions of the same, or very close to the same reality as yours.
anita
December 1, 2024 at 9:17 am #439851anitaParticipantDear John:
I really appreciate your thoughtful and reflective response. Your teacher’s wisdom resonates deeply—it’s a powerful reminder that even small actions can have a significant impact. The analogy of being like heavy water in a nuclear reactor is brilliant; it captures the idea that while we may not be able to stop all the chaos, our efforts can indeed slow it down and bring about positive change.
Thank you for sharing this perspective. It’s encouraging to know that every little bit counts and that we can all contribute in meaningful ways to make the world a better place, or at the very least, not make it worse.
anita
December 6, 2024 at 11:53 pm #439983HelcatParticipantHi John
I’m sorry for the delay in replying. It is just hard for me to think at the moment and your posts are thought provoking. I want to respond to you with the attention and focus that you deserve because I really enjoy our conversations.
I’m sure that your collection of random thoughts is more valuable than you realise. A dry read is not a bad thing. Some of my favourite books other people have considered dry.
Personally, I think that it is important for people to share their thoughts, their memories, their valuable knowledge that they have learned throughout their lives. I have always wanted to write a book with a collection of whatever people wished to share about themselves.
That is a very important skill to view thoughts with a pinch of salt. I’m glad to hear that you don’t have many intrusive thoughts. Being a chemist must have been fascinating!
I respect your humility. I don’t mean to suggest that you have attained buddhahood, just that you are perfectly imperfect and there is nothing wrong with that. 😊
I don’t think that it is the same for all animals. There are specific animals that are known to be more intelligent for example there are some that are capable of grieving (elephants, dogs and dolphins for example). A large dog is known to be as intelligent as a 4 year old. I don’t believe that even the ones that do have the awareness ruminate to the extent that we do. They tend to react to their immediate circumstances and triggers for memories. Then again there are plenty of animals who don’t have that level of awareness.
That is a good question about freedom to choose. Personally, I believe that fate plays a role in our lives. But we do also have some freedom to choose. It is challenging because I feel that people often run on autopilot until something expands their awareness and causes them to consider their actions and choices. Regarding choices there is usually something that people tend to lean towards due to their personality. The trick is sometimes that making decisions can be hard and that it should not be done on impulse and it should be done calmly because I find that bad decisions can be made under stress. What do you think about your question?
Thank you for sharing what Buddha told his disciples on his deathbed. I hadn’t heard that before. I can certainly understand it. But personally I like to learn from others experiences. I believe that it is faster and can save me a lot of time and suffering. Although you are right, some things are harder to accept than others. Trust, but verify. It is helpful to have a pointer to go in the right direction. Sometimes even with that pointer, even with help it can still take a long time to get there.
That is fascinating to learn that these texts were written hundreds of years later.
Thank you for sharing and as always, I’m eager to hear your thoughts! You take care as well. ❤️
Love, peace and blessings! ❤️🙏
December 8, 2024 at 5:44 pm #440016shinnenParticipantHi Helcat,
As usual your ideas are well thought out. I admire that. It’s rare.
Being a chemist, especially an analytical chemist was fascinating. I wanted to do it from the time I was a little boy, stinking the house up with my chemistry set. I loved it, and on top of that, was paid for doing it!!!
“Perfectly imperfect” I like it. Can I use it???
You’re right of course, about the more intelligent animals, they do grieve, even love, I would guess, plus other emotions that we share with them.
Freedom’s an interesting topic, because it gets right to the core of how able we are to affect change. My own sense (and I have no evidence to support it) is that most of us confuse the number of possible scenarios with our freedom to choose any one. I ‘think’ that there exists and enormous, hugely complex mixture of influences: our history, physical characteristics, mood, genetic make up, where we live, what culture, education, our financial situation, even what we had for breakfast, and on and on, that will determine, for the most part, what we will do at any particular moment. I know that this sounds fatalistic, and I suppose that in some sense it is, but to me it’s simply how it is. Of course, I still function daily on the basis of being completely free to choose, so there seems to be some conflict between what I believe and how I behave. There are two entirely different people inside me; a cold, detached, analytical observer, and a caring, sensitive, imaginative one. Somehow they manage to get on harmoniously, without killing each other … so far ; <)
I too learn much from others. If something happens, or someone does something, that makes no sense or that I don’t understand, I assume that there’s something I’m missing. You see, it is all about me; the world is as it is, it’s me that doesn’t get it; it’s me that needs correcting.
As you say, a pointer pointing in the right direction; this is how I view Buddhism. It doesn’t provide instructions on how to live, it simply suggests where one might look for answers.
Yes, after 300 years, if I’m not mistaken, is when the Buddha’s teaching were first recorded. I find it strange when people say, ‘the Buddha said’ when, as far as I know, no one really knows what he taught. If I told someone a story, and they told another, and they told another, and on and on, I suspect it wouldn’t be long before I wouldn’t recognize it as the story I told; so 300 years … hmmmm.
Anyway, thanks for listening to this catharsis.
….. john -
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