Completely lost

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    Hello all. This is my first time here. I saw what appeared to be a group of caring, intelligent individuals helping one another out so I thought I would attempt to get some answers here to my conundrum.


    My wife and I will have been married for 15 years on the 9th of this month. About two weeks ago, I was presented with the words no husband ever wants to hear: “I love you, but I’m not IN love with you anymore”. It really does feel like when I used to get the wind knocked out of me on the football field. That panic you feel when you think you might never breathe again.


    Never the quitter, I decided to fight. It’s what I do. I will fight until the very day the papers are put in my hand, and then I will start a different fight. But until then, I intend to win the heart of my life’s love again. I have spent the past two weeks deep diving into my own psyche, trying to figure out why I warped from the happy go lucky guy she married with the enormous ego  to the man I see in the mirror now….low self esteem, angry all the time just in general, don’t really like myself. That was a good starting point. I started to figure our why I didn’t like me. I don’t know how many times in my life I have heard “If you don’t love yourself, you cannot love anyone”, so it seemed like an appropriate place to start. When I found the source of my self loathing, I found the source of my anger. I traced it back to a baby we had lost nearly a decade ago long into the pregnancy, so it was quite devastating to us both. The difference is, I was taught to “be the man, the rock she needs….no one cares about your feelings, so buck up”. So I did. I started to resent the help coping she was getting that I was not. Especially since for some irrational reason, I felt like I had killed her. I had just been laid off (right at the beginning of the economic crash), I got depressed, started ignoring things I should have been doing, so my wife did them. Some of these things were strenuous. They said such activities might have caused the placental abruption that cost my baby her life. So I blamed me. And I hated me for it. The more time went on and I didn’t deal with it, the more I hated myself. The more I hated myself, the more angry and unpleasant I got to be for my wife and kids. I pushed the away as a form of penance for what I considered my sin.


    I have started dealing with all of that. I plan on getting on some antidepressant/anti anxiety type meds and see a counselor to work through that, and I started taking care of myself again. My wife says she noticed, and she appreciates the changes and really is happy about them, but that she feels “emotionally numb”. I cannot say I blame her. I have been insufferably angry for at least the last three years. Honestly, I am more surprised she didn’t ask for a divorce several months in. My question is, how do I reach her? She says she needs time. I am definitely willing to do that. But there is a distance between us I have never felt before. I went to get a kiss before work, and it seemed…..awkward. She says she “just isn’t feeling it” right now. She doesn’t sign off our communications with “I love you” anymore, which I guess I understand, but all of this is making me nervous. I am worried that the walls she is putting up are impenetrable. That I have waited too long to address things I should have years ago. Am I too late? She isn’t a cruel woman, so I know if she thought it was really over, she would have asked for a divorce. But this coldness, this distance…it’s the worst thing I have ever felt, and unfortunately for me a little, this is the time I have chosen to discard the anger that normally shields and numbs me to the sorrow.


    Any insight would help. Is there any chance to win her back? Is this over and she is just too nice to say so? Is there a woman in there still desperately praying that the man she fell in love with comes back to her? Thanks in advance, guys.


    Dear John:

    You are a fighter, “Never the quitter”. Your aim is to “win the heart of (your) wife’s love again”. For the purpose of winning her heart, you have to evaluate the situation correctly first. If you want, through back and forth communication with me, we can aim at understanding the situation as it is.

    Ten years ago she lost a baby during pregnancy, you felt guilty about it. But that was ten years ago, way before she lost her loving feelings for you, correct?

    Did she blame you for that loss and did you discuss this with her at the time or since?



    Thank you anita. My wife and I just recently sat down and I told her all about what I was feeling. She had said a few weeks back that she was afraid to try again, that she had tried to get me to change and I had written her feelings off, so now she is afraid that if she stays, she will grow to resent me and she wants to walk away while we still have love for one another.


    I told her that when she lost the baby, I blamed myself, and that blame then turned into self loathing, and that self loathing turned into an anger so fierce that it pushed everyone away from me. I told her I felt like it was my psyche’s way of punishing me for my perceived sin, and that the desired effect was not to treat her and the children badly, rather to make me miserable and lose me a family I felt I didn’t deserve.  Her answer gave me a bit of pause, but it did help. She said “It’s not ALL your fault, I could have stayed down and rested. We didn’t know that would happen”. She reminded me that even our next daughter only had a 30% chance of survival. Turns out that abruption had more to do with the scar tissue in her uterus from her C Section birth of our first child. It didn’t allow the placenta to attach as firmly as it normally would. It was a one in a million shot that unless I was keenly aware of her medical issues inside and out, I could have never predicted. The doctor for our next daughter even said he wouldn’t have known unless we had alerted him to what had happened with Maya.


    It gave me pause at first because of the word “all”. As though “some” might have been. Although with what she said after, it was clear she didn’t ever blame me. It was all just something I created. But that one event rippled out through our entire relationship like a stone cast into a still pond. As I said, I am looking to see a physician to deal with some of this chemically (I have tried for a decade to handle this alone, I have failed) and probably see a counselor.


    My issue is now the distance that is between us. I get it, I hurt her. She says she’s “not in love with me anymore”, but that doesn’t ring true to me. I believe she may not feel it anymore, and I don’t want to discount her feelings, but anyone who is going through this level of distancing from another person tells me that they still are very much in love, but they are terrified if they let the other person back in and they fail to make real change happen that she will start to hate me. She barely speaks to me anymore. She won’t be physically intimate with me, not sex or kissing. She barely even says I love you. She only does so when the kids are around as to not rouse suspicion for them (we are keeping all of this under wraps until we know for certain what is happening). I feel exposed without her there to help me out. I know there is a way through the walls she has erected around her heart. And I know why those walls exist. But she says she just feels nothing. For anyone.


    Part of me thinks this might be a PTSD response that she used when her abusive father would do his nastiness. Emotional numbness, the call it. I wonder if this is how she coped back then, and she just slid back into it out of habit. I just don’t know how to reconnect. I feel like I am sitting outside the walls of Ft Knox with a truck full of dynamite, but no possible idea where to put it all to make the walls come down. And it makes me very worried for my family. Add to that, the stress of digging around inside of one’s own head to find out why I had changed, and it has been a very stressful 2 weeks.


    I appreciate your input, however. Truly.



    From my experience the best you can do right now is to focus on yourself. It is hard to accept but you have zero power to change your wife and how she is feeling. All you can do is to take care of yourself and get yourself in a better place.

    The funny thing is that once you change, the world around you changes as well and who knows? Once your wife see you back to your element, feeling whole again, she might feel like she can trust the relationship again and get her guard down BUT that might not happen in which case feeling whole again will help you to move on.

    Regardless, take a day at time and be patient to yourself. You didn’t arrive at this point over night and things will not get adjusted overnight either. Also, find help. You don’t need to go through this alone.

    Hope that helps.



    Dear John:

    “I love you, but I’m not IN love with you anymore” is a very common breakup line. I think that in the first few years of your marriage she has already been not in love with you many times, and so have you. The two of you were at times bored with each other, at times felt nothing toward each other, were distracted.. that happens in every relationship. It can’t be otherwise. And so, this line means nothing to me other than she is considering ending the marriage.

    What is her reason then, I ask myself, looking at the limited information I have. Clearly she is angry with you, that is her reason: “this coldness, this distance… she is afraid that if she stays, she will grow to resent me”. I think she already resents you.

    Here are other indications of her anger: “She barely speaks to me anymore. She won’t be physically intimate with me… She barely even says I love you. She only does so when the kids are around”

    You blamed yourself for the failed pregnancy while it was not your fault at all. But she said: “It’s not ALL your fault, I could have…” If she knows the truth, that it is indeed not your fault at all that the pregnancy failed, then she thinks some things are your fault. She “tried to get (you) to change” those things.

    She feels “’emotionally numb’… She says she needs time… She says she ‘just isn’t feeling it’ right now”.

    Back to your aim, to win her heart, what not to do: to continue to place yourself as the Guilty One or the bad one, to continue to take 100% responsibility for her dissatisfaction and anger, to try to show you that you are … good now, that you changed from bad to good, beg her.

    Can you think for a while about what you mean by winning her heart: do you mean to cause her to feel excitement about you, that in love feelings or do you want her to value you as a man and a husband that will benefit her in the context of a marriage?



    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by anita.

    Hi John,

    I have had two miscarriages, and let me tell you: IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT! Yell it out loud. “IT IS NOT MY FAULT!” Read, rinse and repeat.

    Women have been hunting, gathering, herding, working on farms and doing manual labor while pregnant throughout all of human history. What was she doing? Lifting a truck? Did you tell her to lift and carry a tree or something? Because honestly, if she was just lifting a heavy box and this happened… IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY! It was ready to happen at the next picking up of the laundry basket or young child. Believe it. Please.

    The reason why she’s kind of sort of blaming you is because, hands down, she is blaming herself.

    And that was ten years ago. This miscarriage is the “blame” for the Issue of Choice: She’s just not feeling it.

    Well, I think she is very selfish. Don’t you dare go through or start the divorce proceedings yourself. Let HER do all the work.

    Meanwhile, you know what you should do? This would make me look at my husband differently or in a good way:

    1. GO TO THE GYM.

    2. Come home hot, sweaty, upbeat, and with a smile on your face.

    3. Make sure you dab a little cologne on you, wear a gold men’s bracelet, and/or wear snazzier collared shirts every day. But be subtle about it! (Trust me, she’ll notice!) Make her think that You look dam good, you clearly have a song in your heart, WHAT’S GOING ON?

    No More Sad Dad,


    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Inky.

    I appreciate all of the support here. I really do. So a bit of an update.


    I have gotten an appointment to see a therapist. I need to get something for this depression and anxiety. It makes me fuse so short. I don’t want my kids to go through life knowing dad as the person who screams at them daily. So this is happening regardless.

    My wife and I sat down and started to talk a bit about it. I just bluntly asked her “Is this over? Do I need to start mourning my marriage and moving on”, and while the answer wasn’t what I wanted it to be, it was encouraging and defeating at the same time (Odd, I know). She said that a week or two ago she would have said that yes, it was definitely over. But now she sees in me something she didn’t before. She sees that I am attempting to deal with things. So she says she is not sure, however oddly enough, she said she would like to continue to have sex regardless of how this all went. I guess I am okay with that for the time being, but if it ever goes to divorce, I think I will end that. No use making it more confusing for either of us.


    Anyway, in my dealing with some of these things, talking to all of you, talking to my friends, I finally realized that somewhere along the line, my depression and other things just sort of murdered my self esteem and most of my ego. When I finally realized that, it came back. Nowhere near its former glory of “my dookie don’t stink and I am god’s gift to women” like I thought I was in my early 20s, but enough to start thinking more about all of this in a different light. This will have been the 3rd time my wife has threatened divorce. She does it about every 5 years, once even going so far as to have an emotional affair with my best friend that shattered my trust in other men. As we sat there talking, it felt as though a whole new person came alive inside me, and suddenly I said “It seems like every couple of years, you decide that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and the way to get to the other side is to burn your own side to the ground. If we make it through this time, great. But if you ever pull this again, I will leave you and never come back”. I was sort of mortified at first, my emotional mind was screaming “WHY DID YOU SAY THAT?!?! Now she’s gonna leave”… which my new found self esteem was heard uttering “….good”.


    See, I finally figured this all out. There has never once been a time where I have ever sat down and thought “Do I want to be with this woman? Do I love her? Am I IN love with her?”. Sure, I might have waxed and waned over the years, but I have never openly daydreamed about dropping her and finding some hot 20 something to replace her with. But she has. Three times now. It suddenly became clear that our relationship seems very… sided. I am expected to change, and I will FOR ME, but never once have I told her to change. So suddenly, I was keenly aware that the love and affection I have felt for her for almost more time than I have been without her, seemed conditional from her. And it was so painful to realize. I had given her my love without condition, and in return, I had been told three times that I wasn’t good enough.


    So I am still working on me. And I am still tentatively working towards saving my marriage. But I am done playing the sad sack scrambling to appease his wife. I told her she had to start working on it with me or it was over. She agreed. And I told her I would only give her “space” for so long. I wouldn’t wait forever. And then I told her she needed to get counseling herself, because it’s clear something is there that is making it so she “feels nothing”. She even says she feels nothing for her own mother. She said the kids are fine…..I would hope so. But she says she just shut it off. I am wondering if that is just a coping mechanism because she thought the marriage was done for, and then suddenly, I actually started to do the changes she wants so she had to about face, but she TOO is tentatively observing if the changes are lasting and real.


    Anyway, the awesome part here is, it feel like regardless of the outcome, I will be okay.


    Oh, I hit her with the “Walkaway Wife Syndrome” thing that I read about, which she is clearly in the midst of, and told her how the story ends for those couples (the wife part is a misnomer but since most marriages are ended by the wife, I think is why it is deemed that). One person will be the nurturer. They will get the other to try to change, tell them they are unhappy. That person takes it as an attack or is too deep in their own stuff to notice, so after awhile the “wife” starts to plan her getaway. Here is the kicker that I saw in her eyes hurt her deeply when I mentioned it. Either the husband doesn’t change, gets angry and leaves, or he does change and life gets better, the marriage stronger. She was pretty happy to hear that it looked like. And then I told her how it ends for about a third of the couples according to the psychiatrist who coined the phrase:


    “The husband will change, but it is too little, too late for his wife. If I could untangle any of these knots, it would be this one. Because sadly, the husbands do change and are better men for it. But it is their second wives who reap the benefit from that, and the first wife who gets to watch him be the man he should have been for her, with another”. I could see the pain in her eyes when she started to sort of realize that might happen. So I think she is sticking around now to see how this goes. Tell me what you think. Should I just abandon ship here? Part of me thinks I should because of this whole “feels one sided” thing, but I do love her very much. I just don’t want to end up the doormat who in 5 years is dealing with this nonsense all over again.


    Thanks guys.


    Dear John:

    The  easy part for me first: your children, four young  children, they need a safe, peaceful home. You wrote: “I don’t want my  kids to go through life knowing dad as the person who scream at them daily”. I don’t know if this means you have  been screaming at them or that you feel like screaming at them and you are afraid that you will.

    The children needs to not be screamed at, not by their father, not by their mother, not by anyone. If to achieve  that you need to move out, get a divorce, make that happen. Whatever it takes.

    Second part of my post is asking you what specifically does she wants you to change? “I am expected to change”, change what, is there a list of items she wants you to change?

    Third part, in a post elsewhere you wrote that you thought at one point, before you married her, that she was out of your  league. In what way or ways was she out of your league, in your mind?



    First of all, the kid thing. My fuse is SO short. I keep being told by several people that it is the result of me burying some abuse I endured as a child, and it is starting to seep out. I endeavor to control it as much as possible, but my daughters seem to have this game they play called “keep doing what dad asked us not to until he finally freaks out on us and then try not to laugh”. I mean, at least they find it funny and not frightening. But leaving is not going to fix that. That is something I am dealing with regardless of what is happening in my life right now.


    As for the “changes”. She has claimed I don’t pay enough attention to her. That I spend too much time playing games with my son (he is REALLY into it, so instead of moaning at him to get off the games all the time, I chose to participate with him to bond). That I don’t “make her feel pretty”. I tell her I love her several times a day, tell her how gorgeous she is. When I do that, she does the “Stop, I do not” nonsense and it DRIVES ME CRAZY. Why do you want me to tell you something that you then act like I am the jackass for saying? All throughout our marriage, I was the one who was expected to bend and reshape to her will. I never once have asked her to lose weight, treat me differently, etc.. So it’s stuff like that. I am expected to be EXACTLY who she married 15 years ago or she is unhappy. And that isn’t fair to me. She changed over 15 years, so did I. Maybe we got married too young and life has just changed us into different people. The difference between us is, I would still marry her today. I’m not sure she would say the same.


    As to why she was out of my league, she is smart. Gorgeous. Funny. I don’t normally get ALL of that in one woman. I usually either get a really funny and hot, but completely vapid simpleton, or I get a really good looking and smart woman who has no sense of humor whatsoever. Or I can find a really plain looking woman who is smart and funny. All of them are sexy to me because all three of those things are attractive to me. But she had all three, and I had attempted to get with women before who were all three and just got shot down. Early on in my life, while I thought I was God’s gift to women, I was still WOEFULLY shy with them. I came out of high school having had like 2 girlfriends and a single sexual partner. Come to find out, all the girls were sweating me and I was just too shy to have any clue. One of the girls (saw her at a reunion) told me that was part of the charm. Someone unobtainable, but not because he thought he was too good for all of them, but rather that he thought none of them wanted anything to do with him. I thought that was an odd thing to be attracted to, but it was high school so who knows. My thing back then was knee socks and plaid, pleated skirts so I can’t really complain. So when I took the chance with her, and it worked out, I thought “I can’t ever let this woman go”. And I have endeavored not to since.


    But the truly painful part that I am starting to realize is that she clearly doesn’t feel the same about me. Three times now she has told me, in one way or another, “You aren’t good enough”. It might just be me getting lost in my own hurt feelings, but that just seems like incompatibility on a wedded level. Hell, I thought it was HER who had bought into the Disney Princess, fairy tale ending, but I am starting to think it was ME who has romanticized our relationship outside the scope of reality.



    I am guessing she has her own insecurities.  Could be why she doesn’t “hear” you when you compliment her.  No matter what happens, keep doing the next “right” thing.  Loving your family and yourself.



    Dear John:

    Too often this is the case  in marriages: the man is not  good enough, in the opinion of the wife, that is. And she lets the husband know that. She demands he makes changes so to approach that good-enough position but he never does,  fails sooner than later, more often sooner than expected. No, a man must never rest but tire himself to death trying  to be good enough for the woman sitting in judgment. This is simply a common marital dynamic.

    When the  husband dies early, having tried so hard and for so long, the wife in mourning says: he  was a good  man.  This may  be what is happening in your marriage. Do you think?



    It  very well may be that, Anita. I have begun really deep diving into those words she said:


    “I love you, but I’m not IN love with you”


    The odd thing is, from what I am reading, that is NORMAL. Sadly, human beings these days are just so damned primed for instant gratification that when things start to get difficult, they would rather scrap it and start over than put work in. Of the 9 or 10 psychiatrists and marriage counselors whose opinions I have read on the matter, all this signifies is that we have entered the “rewarding love” portion of our marriage, and out of the “crazy love” part. I spoke with one of the authors, and he said that either we had the best marriage for 14 years, or rather we had just sort of lied to ourselves, and we actually hit this portion of our marriage several years ago. Because to stay in the “crazy love” phase of marriage for that long is borderline mental illness. Apparently, at that point, three things happen in the relationship that are negative if you don’t know what you are doing:


    • You scrap the marriage and start finding someone new to give you the “crazy love” feeling again, which will likely lead you to a long string of failed relationships
    • You have an affair
    • or, you bully your partner into being who they were when you first met in a desperate attempt to recapture the “crazy love” feeling

    My wife tried the first one for awhile. It’s how we went to the first. So now that I see this, it makes a whole lot more sense. My wife has never been a petty or cruel woman, and she is one of the strongest women I have ever met. If she TRULY was not in love with me anymore, as in has no feelings for me whatsoever, she would have just outright asked for a divorce, not kept me close to terrorize me. I had always sort of suspected that, but I was afraid to just put that out there with her. I don’t want to discount her feelings, so the last thing I wanted to do was go “Nah, you still love me! You just don’t get it like I do!”. Not only does that dismiss how I really think she feels, but it just sounds SOOOO pedantic and shallow.

    There is one thing that worries me, however. The author/psychiatrist that I corresponded with (good man, helped out of the kindness of his heart for free, likely with something he charges several hundred dollars and hour normally for) also listed what in their business is called the “4 Horsemen of Divorce”. My wife is currently displaying 2. He says all is not lost if she is still working on us, however. Those “4HM” would be far more dire and pronounced if she really intended to bail.


    We have a date for just us set up on Monday. I made and ass of myself last night because I gave her a card and flowers for our 15 year anniversary with a nice, heartfelt note inside, and she didn’t say a word about it. So I pouted and gave her the silent treatment all day over it. Sometimes I wonder if I am 40 or 14. Anyway, I hope to sort of breech this subject on our date. Maybe just ask her if what this man said is a possibility. Because 9 of 10 of those I have read/spoken to seem to think this is the most normal transition of a marriage our age. But we both have to realize that in the “reward love” phase, we must give each other reason to feel like it is a reward for us to be together. And not act like petulant teenagers when we hurt one another and just talk outright. I hope it goes better, but I am still very tentatively making plans to better myself and move on if it should crumble.


    Thank you all again for your input. It has really helped to at the very least have someone to vent to, and at best here, some helpful words of encouragement and help deciphering all of this.


    Dear  John:

    There is also the money issue, all the trouble of dividing assets that goes  with divorce. Maybe she doesn’t want to go through that, maybe her life will be more difficult, financially if she does? And/or maybe she is worried about the children, what is best for them, and that is her only concern and the only reason she didn’t  ask you for  divorce.

    Maybe it is not all about her love/in-love feelings for you, or lack of.



    Well, I know for certain now. She is done. She feels like nothing is ever going to change and she wants out now before we hate each other. To say I am gutted is an understatement, but honestly, I feel relieved. Yes, this sucks, and yes, I loathe having to tell my children that mom and dad are done, but honestly I just feel like after a month in this holding pattern, I feel like a weight has been lifted.


    I am wondering how much of that is my intent to change, and our intent to co-habitate for at least a little while. Like the last shred of hope that I will change like she thinks I won’t, and magically we will fall back in love. But even that, I now feel, is such a long shot that it doesn’t matter anymore. It isn’t my goal anymore. It might end up being a happy side effect of my goal, which is dealing with all of this stuff, but if not, I know at the other side I will be happy again one day. It feels so far off, and honestly I am wrestling with feelings and thoughts of self harm because of it, but it just doesn’t feel the same anymore. The depression has lifted a little it almost seems because for the first time in a long time, I have certainty on my side. I am certain I am changing for the better. I am certain that my overwhelming obsession is no longer placating my wife. I am certain that some day, I will be a better man for someone else likely. But that is 15 years of my life gone. I would do it all over again in a second because it gave me my babies. But what do I do now that the best years of my life were taken from me by someone who sees it getting tough and wants to throw in the towel?


    Part of me also thinks that she thinks I will be there waiting like an obedient hound at the end of her own soul searching. I have been before, as I said, this isn’t her first foray into “I think we should split up”. And both times, I was there eagerly awaiting her return. But I told her in no uncertain terms that this would not be the case this time, that I was finished being told I wasn’t good enough for her every few years. That this would be the last time no matter how it all worked out. And I meant it. I don’t want to hurt her, and I don’t want to damage someone else, but there is a girl I have known since high school that has been sort of sniffing around since the separation talk was had, and she is the one that got away for me. It seems she sort of feels the same way.


    But I don’t think it would be fair to my soon to be exwife, my children, or this woman to thrust myself into a new relationship so soon. I am starting to understand that I might be sort of addicted to being loved and needed, and when I wasn’t feeling that from my wife this past month it was like torture. But now that I am free to pursue my own happiness by any means, I feel better. But a “rebound” is just a terrible idea I think. I don’t know. My soon to be ex also still wants to sleep together which I feel is odd. I am not sure how I feel about that now. I feel it might give either one of us hope that the other is coming back, and right now I don’t really want that.


    Anyways, you guys have been invaluable in this process. I am seriously uncertain if I would have made it through all of this unscathed if I didn’t have you all to bounce ideas off of and vent to. With my exwife’s past indiscretions, I have distanced myself from any real life friends, so it was hard to find anyone to talk to about this, and my best friend, my ex, was obviously not available. So thank you so much for this.


    Dear John:

    You are welcome.

    You wrote: “she wants out now before we hate each other” and she “also still wants to sleep together”- why does  she want to have sex with you: is it that she has a strong sex drive that can’t wait, nd if this is the case, will you be there to satisfy it until she finds another man?

    Or is there another reason?

    You wrote a lot about you changing. On another thread you wrote: “I am more than ever driven to change.. she will see me become the man she originally fell in love with”, and here, in your recent post, you wrote, “Like the  last shred of hope that I will change like she thinks I won’t, and magically we will fall back in love”-

    More often than not, I believe, a woman falls in love with a man not because of who the man is, but because of who the woman needs the man to be, who she wishes him to be, and that wish existed before meeting the man they needed before ever meeting the man. All this time of you trying  to change, it may have  been that you were trying  to change back into a Fantasy she had in mind.

    I don’t think it is a good idea that you sleep with her, better set a bed in a separate room with a closed door.



    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by anita.
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