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Depressed due to guilt and fear

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  • #110683
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Yep, I mean the bond itself was special and that’s what he cherished. He did not actively seek a more special position in his father’s life than anyone else (and he already had it).

    I did have a special bond with him, yes. Though I don’t remember that much since I was very young back then. But he used to teach me maths, watch cartoons with me and read out stories for me

    #110685
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    A Warning: the following may feel very uncomfortable for you. Please read it in small portions, over time, or not at all.

    The reason The Lion King death scene touched so many people, is that for so many, it awakened a great pain- the pain of losing the IMAGE of a loving parent, a protector; the pain of losing that feeling of safety of early childhood.

    The moment Simba realized his father was dead was the moment he lost his safety, protection, physical and emotional. We cry because it reminds us the moment we lost that childhood innocence, that belief that our father or mother are those wonderful people who love us so much and will do anything for our safety and well being.

    This is an unbearable awareness for a child, to lose that safety, either a parent dies, or … maybe worse, to see a parent who wants to hurt us (like Scar) or a parent who is hurting us (wanting or not) and doesn’t see us hurting.

    That is the loss of innocence. This is the injury that needs attention.

    And that is the injury that got triggered in you in the past, causing you to lash out at Jerry with anger. This is what I believe.

    Before writing the message to Jerry, need separate the old injury, the loss of innocence, the loss of belief in the all-loving-parent FROM Jerry. So far there has been an overlapping of the two.

    Thoughts, feelings…?

    anita

    #110686
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    I can’t say I ever felt that way regarding the death scene. I didn’t have any problems with my family back then and I never felt that I lost my innocence or the false image of a loving parent. I always felt the death scene was touching because it featured raw human emotions and emotion is contagious. My greatest inner fear is losing my loved ones, it’s always been that and I guess that’s why it affected me so much. In fact I always feared losing Jerry too… I always feared doing something that would lead to her abandoning me. I even confessed it to her and she just laughed and told me we’ll always be together. But my fear turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I do admit the reason for lashing out at Jerry is grounded in my past experiences which we discussed much in previous posts… especially that foul encounter with the neighbour.

    #110690
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    When Simba ran away from his dead father, he stopped running because he realized there is nowhere to run, so he went back to seek comfort from the dead body of his father.

    That fear of Simba’s face was not one he could handle, so he denied it, denied that indeed his father cannot comfort him or protect him. So he pretended otherwise by covering his small body by his father’s dead arm.

    We forget, put it outside our awareness, that we were betrayed, that our parent betrayed us and we keep seeking comfort in that person, pretending there is comfort there, when there is not.

    Feelings are contagious only when you already have an experience in you that the feeling attaches itself to. You fear losing your parents because you already have. They are still physically there, like Musafa’s dead body, but you lost the belief in the parent protecting you, acting for your best interest, the belief of being that special as to warrant the parent’s protection.

    It is only when you see your parents/ care takers in your life as they are, that you also see who you are and who, in this case, Jerry is.

    If you don’t see the first part, you will not see Jerry, and so, you will keep longing for her as a symbol of something else.

    anita

    #110692
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    A humble request to not compare my parents to Mufasa’s dead body. I know there have been some disagreements and bad incidents between us, much of it stemming from a lack of understanding and maturity on both sides. I’m glad that things have now been sorted out and at least the independence thing is no longer an issue for me. I don’t know if the loss of belief in a protecting parent is the reason that the death scene clicked with me, because like I said back then none of these issues existed. I do know that my later life situation is why I grew too attached to Jerry and sought desperately to be extra special to her and for her life to revolve around me. What’s done is done… I just wish to fix things here on.

    #110694
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Your request has been registered and will be honored.

    If you ever want to come back to the movie and to how it relates to you and to your life, please do come back to it, let me know. Otherwise, I am abandoning it here, on your thread.

    To “fix things from here on”- let me know how I can help with that. If it is trying to help you with the message to Jerry- you can post it here.

    anita

    #110721
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Thanks. I don’t mind discussing about the movie and its relevance, just that this dead body thing is something which has been haunting my dreams from long. Sort of like the boggarts from Harry Potter. Otherwise discussing is fine. 🙂

    Posting my message to Jerry here. I tried to be honest like you said, but it feels more sycophantic. If it’s okay, I’ll delete it after you’ve read.
    *****

    I know you don’t want to talk to me and I know that I’m the ultimate villain in the eyes of you and your sister now. You may deny it, Jerry, but we both know that’s the truth. I don’t blame you. I don’t know whether you’ll reply or even read this message, or delete it after a glance. I don’t want to monotonously repeat what I already have said before. I respect your views and opinions, and I respect your right to make decisions even if I don’t agree with the same. If you feel that permanently breaking relations is the only right punishment for me, then what can I say? I know well about the brother-sister rules in the Indian culture and I know that a “brother” developing any human feelings other than brotherly is considered a great sin and enough to permanently label him a traitor and pervert. I accept that I am nobody to consider myself above social rules, and in that context I accept that I have done a great wrong. I accept that I am a monster. As a biology student, I’ve always been told that our feelings are hormonal and neural in nature and we cannot help whom we fall in love with. I know you don’t like these things and that’s why I tried to keep my feelings from you and confessed only to 2 mutual friends. If it still means I transformed from a “humble and caring brother” into a monster, then I accept that I am one. I admit I should not have grown so possessive and jealous. For these five months I have hated myself knowing that if I had been satisfied with what I had, you would still be with me today. I couldn’t be… because you mean a lot to me. You still do and always will do.

    I just want to say something. You said that my feelings show you that I understood neither you nor your nature. Let’s say that’s true. After this, I have been told that the Internet is a dangerous place due to people like me who “wear masks” and trick and victimize innocent people. I’ve also been told that the other girls who call me brother need to beware as I can change my feelings and lust for them anytime. Please imagine what it feels like to hear these things after three years of togetherness? I cannot support myself obstinately, when I know I myself have done bad things too. But God knows that if there’s anything I have never done, it is stopping caring for you, disrespecting you or thinking inappropriately of you. I admit I have lost my temper over petty issues, behaved badly with you, even stopped talking… but my temper has never ended with me not regretting it. I was so touched by your last message, “though he hurted me with the bad words he used, I’ll pray for him and always think good only for him”, I promised to change myself and from March, I’ve made every effort to stop using bad language and losing temper. Because I genuinely respect and care for you, I have always done and always will do. You may not accept any form of love other than brotherly, which is fine, but it does not mean that form of love is lustful. You referred to me as “Ravi bro” in April and I promised you that I would never let those feelings come between us again. If a bro-sis bond is the only thing acceptable to you, I promised to keep it at that only. I took full responsibility. What more can I do?? I have been waiting for any reply from you, but everything has been dry and barren as a desert.

    I’m doing my best to acknowledge your situation and take responsibility on my part. Please try to look at things from my perspective too, Jerry. Putting aside my own feelings, I unconditionally apologize to you again for everything. I accept that you loved me as a brother only and never expected this from me, and felt so betrayed. I’m sorry for everything you had to go through because of me. But if someone is trying their best to make up to you after five months of you not talking to them, I wish you could see that their underlying motivation is sincere, and not lust or bad intentions. You could have made it clear that you’ll not accept anything but a bro-sis bond… you know I would never try to force you. But breaking our relation permanently for this? I’m sorry if you feel bad, but you’re looking at everything about me in the worst possible manner, be it my early posts about (our fav actor) or me being happy about you being comfortable after our phone call. You’re seeing hidden bad things everywhere even when there aren’t any. Please try to understand what I’m saying, for once. If there’s anything I could do to prove that I mean my words, I’m ready for it. I do not have any right to ask you for forgiveness; I accept that it’s your right alone to decide. But I have to say this, no matter now corny it sounds… I miss you. There has not been a single day from 7th March when I’ve had a single moment of peace. I’m not asking for any special place in your life. I have been told to remain happy with all the others who call me brother. But you know better than me that no relation can ever take the place of another. And nobody can ever take your place in my life either. That’s how it has been and how it always will be.

    #110723
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    After posting you last I realized that my talk about death basically scared you and I understand. It is only recently that I am able to talk/ write about it myself. So, yes, I get it. I am making a mental note of it for the future.

    Glad it is okay to discuss the movie otherwise. Will do.

    Regarding the message to Jerry, delete it if you can, yes. I am copying it here for editing and commenting in parentheses:

    (deleted because it is defensive, repetitive, negative, like you are having an argument with her in your mind, debating). I respect your views and opinions, and I respect your right to make decisions even if I don’t agree with the same (this sounds nice but I would delete this too because I don’t think it is true…) (more deleting, still defending, arguing/ debating) . I accept that I am nobody..(would delete this too because it is self deprecating) I accept that I am a monster (will delete this too because it is not true)

    Basically, so far I don’t like anything in your message, all not a good idea, I say.

    “I just want to say something. You said that my feelings show you that I understood neither you nor your nature. Let’s say that’s true… (I would delete this too because you are still arguing. So far the message is argumentative so it is all out). Please imagine what it feels like to hear these things after three years of togetherness?(first maybe acceptable sentence because you are suggesting you feel hurt) …”if there’s anything I have never done, it is stopping caring for you, disrespecting you or thinking inappropriately of you (maybe okay)…I unconditionally apologize to you again for everything (to delete, submissive, need not apologize for everything- this just isn’t right- you were done wrong to by the sister and misunderstood by Jerry- you shouldn’t apologize for that, as in “everything”)… “Please try to understand what I’m saying, for once (angry Ravi here as in most of the message, “for once”- as in: you never understand what I am saying!)… I do not have any right to ask you for forgiveness (you go back and forth between arguing and criticizing her and asking for forgiveness, inconsisten).. “But I have to say this, no matter now corny it sounds… I miss you (If it is corny, don’t say it. If you want to say it, don’t say it is corny, or say it in a non corny way)…

    My goodness, Ravi- It is like you wrote the worst possible message you can write.

    I feel like writing it for you. Why don’t I try, just as an example of the kind of message that would MAKE SENSE!

    Dear Jerry:

    I miss you so much. I miss you every day. I grew so attached to you for three years, enjoying our communication, your kindness, so very much. Our connection, over the three years meant and still means so much to me. How I wish to have it back.

    When I think of communicating with you again, I don’t know if it can or should be as brother/ sister. I would be glad to communicate as platonic friends, which we have been throughout these three years.

    I am not lustful for you, Jerry. I do not see you that way. My love for you has always been spiritual, not physical. It is a strong, spiritual love and this is the way it will stay.

    As your the spiritual friend I suggest to be to you, I will practice nothing but respectful behavior toward you. Will you be my spiritual friend?

    Ravi- this is an example of a message you can send to her (following editing). I wish you take my word for it, the draft you proposed is a bad… bad idea. My message, as an example, is making sense to me. Doesn’t it to you? I developed the concept of “spiritual friends” to suggest a substitution for the bro/ sister context.

    anita

    #110725
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Ya I knew that the message I had drafted is anything but good. 😛 Honestly, I am at a loss for how to frame it, because I had tried saying almost everything to her and she just ignored it. I don’t know whether this spiritual thing is right to say, because she seems allergic to the very word “love” coming from me now and she’s also stubborn that she cannot accept anything other than a bro-sis relation. Maybe I should say that I am willing to settle with any form of communication acceptable to her? The rest of the message, I’ll try to reframe considering your advice.

    #110727
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Well, instead of the word “love” write some other word. She won’t accept spiritual friends? Or platonic friends? Is there some other culturally acceptable term..? Anyway, make it SHORT. Positive as in not critical of her, not argumentative, as in arguing against her and her sister’s accusations, as if you are in a court house. Make it short and sweet. About the length of my example in the last post.

    anita

    #110728
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Ravi: I just googled synonyms for “sister”- sib (short for sibling), kinfolk… synonyms for “friend”: amiga, associate, boon companion, bosom buddy (yes… that would go well, bosom, ha ha), buddy, chum (well…), companion, homegirl, mate, soul mate.

    anita

    #110729
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    I wrote this… not sure if it’s any better, but at least a step in the right direction I hope.

    *****

    I know you don’t want to talk to me and I know how fallen I am in the eyes of you and your sister now. You are sweet to deny it, Jerry, but you know that’s the truth. I don’t know whether you’ll reply or read this message, or delete it after a glance. I’m messaging you because my exams are over at last, and this is something I have been wishing to say for wrong. I don’t feel repeating what we’ve said before is of any use. I accept that I am nobody to consider myself above social rules, and in that context I accept that I have done wrong. I know you don’t like these things and that’s why I tried to keep my feelings from you and confessed only to 2 mutual friends. If it still means I transformed from a “humble and caring brother” into a monster, then I accept that I am one. But God knows that if there’s anything I have never done, it is stopping caring for you, disrespecting you or thinking inappropriately of you. I admit I have lost my temper over petty issues, behaved badly with you, even stopped talking… but my temper has never ended with me not regretting it. I was so touched by your last message, “though he hurted me with the bad words he used, I’ll pray for him and always think good only for him”, I promised to change myself and I’ve made every effort to stop using bad language and losing temper. Because I genuinely respect and care for you, I have always done and always will do.

    The above issue aside, I can only hope you understand that I never lusted for you or thought inappropriately of you, Jerry. My love was always based on respect for you as a person and your virtues which make you who you are. That’s what it always was and always will be. I accept that you loved me as a brother only and never expected this from me, and felt so betrayed. I’m sorry for everything you had to go through because of me. But if someone is doing their best to make up to you after five months, I wish you could see that their underlying motivation is sincere, and not lust or bad intentions. I don’t know about anything else, but I miss you. I miss you and our bond every day and every moment. There has not been a single day from 7th March when I’ve had a single moment of peace. I have been told to remain happy with all the others who call me brother. But you know better than me that no relation can ever take the place of another. And nobody can ever take your place in my life either, Jerry. That’s how it has been and how it always will be. I’m not asking for any special place in your life. I had already promised you that my feelings won’t ever come between us again, and I’m willing to be contented with any form of communication that is acceptable to you. I hope you try to understand.

    #110756
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    This version is way better than the previous, huge improvement. In the previous you presented yourself as a very angry person, full of anger, argumentative, attacking her (and her sister) and defending, apologizing, deprecating yourself at the same time. Neither of those stands was good input.

    Back to this much improved version, I would delete this: ” You are sweet to deny it, Jerry, but you know that’s the truth. I don’t know whether you’ll reply or read this message, or delete it after a glance.” Because: you are sweet to deny it etc. is as if you are talking to her in your own brain, you say something, she says something, you answer her, all in your brain, not in real life. This message should be you talking to her, not the image of her having a conversation with you. The part of “I don’t know whether you’ll reply etc.”- see no point in writing this. If she deleted it, well, she won’t be reading this.

    The part about missing her is the best part. Finally there is your motivation. In the first version, one may wonder (I did, after my last post to you), why would anyone respond to such a message because the motivation was clearly anger at her, accusing her of this and that, so … one would wonder why you would want to reconnect with someone you are so angry at.

    And watch for that anger. Like I wrote to you before, there is a valid message you should listen to in every emotion. You might be angry at someone else, mostly, but feel uncomfortable directing the anger at the other person, but more comfortable directing it at Jerry.

    If you want, have the time and are so inclined, you can review our correspondence on this thread since February and take notes on things to think about, to examine, so to get to the source of your anger: the parenting you received, the experiences at school, etc. Listen to your anger, hear the valid message, so that in case Jerry answers, that you will not drive the rekindled communication to the ground with your anger.

    Not that her and her sister’s evaluation of you was correct, far from it. But your anger is way too intense to fit a 20 and a 15 year old girls’ foolishness. It is deeper and predates Jerry.

    Write me first before you send the above better version to her. I think you should take a break to study our thread first, calmly, as I suggested. And do so before sending her a message. Study it and take notes of anything at all that seems meaningful and curious to you.

    anita

    #110759
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    OK, Anita. Thanks for such thought-provoking and meaningful advice. 🙂 I considered your words and thought over the root issue you mentioned. I admit that more than Jerry, it’s her sister who hurt me with her words. Though like you another friend also told me that it’s not wise to take a 15 year old girl’s immature words so seriously, but I still cannot get over it. I guess it indicates the lack of confidence and self respect within me. But yes, no matter how long it takes to reconcile with Jerry, no matter whether she maintains a stony silence or sends back rude and unfriendly replies, I’m determined to not lose my temper under any circumstances. I won’t be sending her any reply without showing you first. I’m going over our thread as you suggested.

    I had kept the “sweet to deny it” part because she and her sister mentioned it twice before. “We have no anger towards you, we just don’t want to have anything to do with you anymore.” And “don’t know if you’ll reply”, had kept it hoping to appeal to her conscience. Of course, can delete them if needed. Otherwise the message is alright I hope? Anything she and her sister can twist and take wrongly?

    #110770
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    The ““We have no anger towards you, we just don’t want to have anything to do with you anymore.” communication: who wrote it (Jerry, her sister, both?) and when was it sent to you? Was there any communication from either after this one?

    The message is way, way better than the previous. Glad you are waiting with it- I think it is a good idea. After you re-read and take notes, let me know what you learn or wanting to look more into.

    And also, my first question on this very post- that communication which is news to me.

    Will be away from the computer for a while, hours.

    anita

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