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I give up being a composer

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  • #67857
    Matt
    Participant

    My happiness is the only reason for me finding good meaning about me as a person and finding good meaning in this life. Without that, there would be nothing good about me as a person or anything good in my life. I can just use my thoughts alone to perceive me and my life being good even without my pleasure. But these are nothing more than neutral (neither good or bad) thoughts and that would not make me or my life anything good at all regardless of how much I help others and do great things in my life. Therefore, since I no longer have any pleasure 24/7 due to my anhedonia (emotional numbness) in which there are never any brief moments of pleasure to any degree whatsoever, this is why there is no longer anything good about me as a person or my life.

    My dream in life was to be a composer and I was in the process of learning how to compose. My dream was to be a great composer through my pure pleasure alone because, to me, that is the only thing that defines someone as being great. As a matter of fact, the fact that I had the ability to experience feelings of pleasure so great and profound, this would enable me to be a really great composer who would be able to channel those feelings in creating emotionally powerful compositions. Feelings of depression and anhedonia are not classified as feelings at all. They are the taking away of your pleasure and other emotions. Therefore, they are not anything to tap into and channel in creating any type of emotionally powerful composition. Instead, they make you a lesser person and a lesser composer who can only create compositions through intelligence alone which would be nowhere near great and emotionally powerful as opposed to if you were to create compositions through your profound feelings of pleasure. In other words, even the greatest composers in history who had depression and/or lack of pleasure could of been even better if they had their full pleasure to tap and channel into.

    But I have given up being a composer right now since my only goal in becoming a composer was to tap into and channel my feelings of pleasure I valued so much and create many different types of music through my pure pleasure alone. Creating music through my suffering is NOT what I want to do and doing so would only make me feel that much worse. To me, music is all about enjoyment and creating music through your pure pleasure alone. I have given up being a composer because me choosing to become a composer brings me nothing but anger and frustration now since I no longer have any pleasure to tap into and channel. I refuse to be the biological robot in a world that absolutely calls for our experience of love and pleasure (which would be the emotional world of composing) who does nothing but creates music through having no pleasure. I will not channel even my own feelings of anger and frustration in creating music because, again, that only makes me feel worse and is not what I wanted to do at all anyway.

    Now, if, let’s pretend, that I were the greatest composer in the world right now and composed masterpieces, this would actually be the worst moment of my life. This is because these would be the greatest pieces of music I have written and this would be the greatest moment of my life and I am not even allowed to enjoy it to any degree at all. Sure, composing music for other people and bringing them pleasure is good. But music is a very personal emotional thing to me and I must, therefore, experience good feelings from my music. Otherwise, me being a composer is completely pointless and detrimental as it only brings me nothing but rage and frustration knowing that I cannot experience any pleasure from my own compositions whatsoever as well as that I don’t have any good feelings to even tap into and channel in creating my compositions which would be much more emotionally powerful since they were created through my emotions (my pleasure) rather than them being created without such feelings.

    Since my personal experience of pleasure was so profound and meaningful to me in the past, then I absolutely cannot just simply ignore this and choose to view other things in life as something greater. This is because I reject doing so and reject being the lesser person with a lesser life as a result. Now if you or anyone else here has found other things in life of greater value than your pleasure (which would include finding greater things in life than even your own feelings of love), then you obviously have not experienced these feelings nearly as profound or meaningful as I have to know that they are truly the only good and greatest things in life.

    Now if you can never fully recover your lost love and pleasure, then at least you have spent your entire life by being the superior human being who has tried to fully recover these things. If you are going to say something such as that living your life trying to fully recover these lost feelings instead of accepting this loss and moving on is a wasted life, it’s not a wasted life. Like I said before, feelings of love and pleasure are the only greatest aspects of me as a human being and are the only things that make my own personal life worth living. So for me to abandon them and instead live my life for other reasons besides trying to fully recover them, THAT would be the wasted life for me.

    Finally, one might say that I am still a good person since I still care and help others anyway. However, to me, someone who helps and cares for others is no better or worse than someone who is a psychopath and kills others. The only thing that makes you a better or lesser person is your amount of pleasure in life regardless of who you are as a person. Since I have lesser pleasure, that makes me a lesser person than even Hitler himself who has more pleasure in life (although there may be moments where he definitely had bad moments in his life from harming others). The reason why I say this is because, again, my personal experience of pleasure says this since it was so profound and meaningful to me and there is nothing in life that can ever take place of that regardless of how much I try and change my attitude and other things. I refuse to even try anyway since that would make me the lesser human being with a lesser life as I stated earlier in my writing.

    #67889
    Jordan
    Participant

    Yes, I partially agree to your statements. Almost any creative endeavor requires a kind of emotional content. Even mundane tasks become easier and joyful to a happy person. It is truly a gift to be someone who can find joy in anything, and therefore be great at anything they do (even sweeping the floor with profound joy is supreme).

    I find myself in a similar situation. I go through bouts of depression. Although I am much better now than I was a few months ago, I still go through cycles. Some days I feel calm and collected, and ready to start the day. Others I feel no motivation and don’t want to move. I notice that on days when I wake up happier my work progresses more smoothly and intelligently than on days when I’m depressed.

    There is no reason why you can’t take breaks in what you do. You can still take up composing later in life once you become more stable. Try to find something else that gives you joy. Depression feeds on the feeling of restlessness and sloth. When you have a strong motivation, or purpose, then you can more easily cope. Do not give up everything just because you are going through a rough time. Do something else, and things will pass.

    #67900
    Matt
    Participant

    One more thing I would like to add is that some people might tell me to accept a lifelong loss of pleasure that might never recover or even fully recover and to just be at peace and content with my life of anhedonia. These would be the pathetic and inferior human beings for having little to no value towards my feelings of pleasure that I value so greatly and I refuse to stoop down to their level. I refuse to be the inferior human being who accepts this loss. I am not inferior. I am instead a powerful human being for not accepting this loss and trying to fully recover it. Therefore, the closest thing to making me a good person despite my loss of pleasure is for not accepting this loss and living my life in trying to fully recover it. The only way for accepting this loss to make me a good person would be if this acceptance would actually fully bring back my ability to experience pleasure. However, if it turns out that I can never recover my pleasure, then I will actually be utterly inferior and me and my life would no longer have any value at all this time regardless of what attitude I have or what things I do in my life. So the only superior human beings are those who tell me to not accept this loss and try to fully recover it who have compassion towards my loss of pleasure and have immense value towards my pleasure. Therefore, I will specifically seek out these types of people who I deem as superior and cast out the rest (the opposite) who will be deemed as utterly inferior.

    #67902
    Jordan
    Participant

    Yes, but you still don’t quite grasp what I’m saying. Just because you have a loss of pleasure now doesn’t mean you will have a permanent loss of pleasure. Further, you may develop a sense of pleasure in something else later in life. Not everyone is born knowing what their passions are, but instead discover them through trial and error. You may find something else later in life that gives you a similar degree of passion as to what you once felt in composing. You haven’t found it and don’t know what it is, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’m not suggesting to be pathetic and wallow in sorrow, or to be tough about and accept a loss. I’m telling you to continue on and seek passion in whatever it may be. You are evolving and need to cast off the shell of what you once were to be something even greater. You are growing, and with growth is pain.

    #67903
    Matt
    Participant

    Also, you can compose music that has dark, gothic, and tragic emotion to it through pure pleasure alone anyway (the pleasure of dark, gothic, and tragic things). You can create these types of music through pure pleasure alone and they can be just as good (and even better) than if you created them through your suffering and despair. You can also grow as a person just as good and even better under the right circumstances through pure pleasure alone without any suffering or despair in your life since the brain is something you can change at will and you can be a better compassionate person at any given personal level and such through just changing your attitude and through other things in life besides suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure.

    Finally, who you are as a person and everything else in life is all neutral (neither good or bad) from your perspective and has no effect on your personal value and worth as a person. The only thing that makes you a better or lesser person is your amount of pleasure in life regardless of who you are as a person.

    #67905
    Matt
    Participant

    Just one last thing I would like to add in addition to my previous post I just made (which I wish for you to respond to both that post and this post) would be that I will prove right here how you can grow as a person and be better in other ways without suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure in your life. There are people who go through a great amount of suffering and despair and yet, they do not become more compassionate or become a better person in any other sense. As a matter of fact, they can become less compassionate even towards others who suffer the same things and they instead take out their suffering on other people. This would be because they have refused to change their attitude in becoming a better person and have refused to become better in any other sense through other means in life besides suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure. Therefore, since this holds true, the opposite would hold true as well in that people who have very little suffering and despair in their lives can change their attitude in becoming a better person and better in other ways through other means in life besides suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure.

    #67910
    Jordan
    Participant

    1st response:

    Yes, you can still make gothic music when happy. There is a painter (Beksinski) who is known for very dark work, but is quite content in real life. Some artists who do happy things (like Robin Williams) are quite depressed in life. Mood does not really affect the tone of your work, but I would argue that being happy generally makes you more motivated and thus more effective. Pleasure is important, but I must argue that your pleasure should never take pleasure from others. It is a kind of equivalence law whereby any pleasure you gain should not be overcompensated by displeasure to others. You gave an example of Hitler having pleasure and passion. Hitler, by killing many, denied so many of their own pleasure and thus is not a good pleasure. Human beings have a sense of altruism, where we feel happy when others are happy. So then, why not achieve a source of happiness by helping others. By helping others you don’t have to wallow in their misery, just like a doctor treating a patient doesn’t have to get sick.

    The problem with western society is that we need to feel a certain worth. If we don’t suffer or work for something than we feel we do not earn it. This is a very false conception and I’m glad you have a similar opinion

    Second Post:

    What you say about compassion, and not needing suffering to achieve it, is correct in a way. I would also like to point out that if you have suffered at some point in your life it is much easier to empathize with someone else who is suffering. The thing about suffering, depression, etc. is that it’s not a ‘black and white’ scientific thing you can fully grasp from reading books. Sure you can read about the symptoms and trials of what people are going through, but you still don’t quite grasp what it’s actually like until you go through it. That being said, anyone who is happy generally is a positive influence. So regardless if you’ve suffered or not, I believe a happy person could help out a suffering person.

    It is like being a doctor. Just because the patients are sick doesn’t mean the doctor has to make himself sick to treat them. Though, the doctor still needs to know all the symptoms and causes of why the person is sick. IT is similar when suffering: You don’t need to wallow in despair to help (like you said), but you still need a strong understanding which is difficult to come by.

    #67919
    Matt
    Participant

    Now the reason why I say that even Hitler himself is a better person is not only because my personal experience of pleasure says that it is the only thing that defines your own personal value and worth as a human being. But I also say this because it is an exaggeration and expression of how frustrated and angry I am with my meaningless and worthless life of no pleasure since pleasure is the only greatest thing to me in life. I will create shock value and revolutionize the perspective of others to make them think twice about them viewing other things in life as greater value than their own pleasure as an expression of my rage and frustration towards my life of no pleasure. Me expressing this will also be likely to make others take me seriously and realize just how important pleasure is for me in life and make them have compassion and understanding towards my loss of pleasure and just how important pleasure is for me in life.

    I also said before that I have found at least a little bit of value and worth in my life in trying to fully regain my lost pleasure through medication, therapy, etc. So if this is the case, then why can’t I also find greater value and worth towards other things in life than my pleasure? It would be because it all still comes back to my own personal experience of pleasure being the greatest thing to me in life and my personal experience of how losing that through depression and anhedonia is the worst thing for me. Therefore, the only life I find to have at least some value and worth would be for me to live my life in trying to fully recover the very thing that made my life worth living and of great value in the first place (which would, again, be my pleasure). Again, I realize that bringing others pleasure in life is important for them. But despite the fact that I do value the pleasure of others and view it as important in life to bring them pleasure, this still does not make it anything good from my own perspective since all my thoughts, perceptions, and created meanings are neutral (neither good or bad) and it is only my pleasure that is good since I am not in the minds of others and can’t experience their pleasure. Even me living my life trying to fully regain my lost pleasure is neutral as well at this point. However, I still do these things anyway since I still value my own pleasure just as much as anyone else’s. But no matter how much value I put towards the pleasure of others, that will never take away from the value I have towards my own pleasure since my personal experience of pleasure says to me that it is the greatest thing for me in life. So even if I were to have someone in my life whom I have immense value and love towards despite my absence of pleasure (such as my mom or anyone else), I would still feel very depressed and enraged towards my own loss of pleasure despite me living solely to bring these people pleasure. Also, having less value towards my own pleasure would make me the lesser person with a lesser life as I stated earlier in my writing anyway. Therefore, me having both full value towards my own pleasure and full value towards the pleasure of others is the closest thing right now to making me a great person despite my own absence of pleasure. However, I am nowhere near as great as I would be if I had my full pleasure in life right now. Also, even me perceiving myself as being at least somewhat great for having full value towards my own pleasure and the pleasure of others still does not make me or my life anything good or great at all. It just simply makes me perceive me and my life as at least being of some value and worth despite the fact that me and my life have absolutely no value and worth without my pleasure.

    I am now going to explain something else as to why I value pleasure so much which is that there are characters in anime (Japanese cartoons) that I perceive as superior god-like beings with superior god-like personalities. A few example of these characters are Cell and Vegeta from the anime Dragonball Z. They are examples of the most awesome characters since they are god-like with god-like powers and are megalomaniacs who wish to have power and control in their lives and have superior god-like personalities and wish to obtain god-like powers.

    Now there is a term known as “Anthropomorphism” which is when you attribute your perceived personality of other living things, objects, and people, to other living things, objects, and people (including your own self in which you feel like a different person, but you can still act as the exact same person). Therefore, when I had my ability to experience pleasure in the past, I would anthropomorphize these characters as a part of me in order to feel their awesome superior god-like life essence coursing through me. This gave me superior intense god-like feelings of pleasure since I felt like I was these characters. Pleasure, to me, is “life force (essence)” that is the ultimate defining aspect of a human being which will not only make you a human being, but can also enhance you to a level that is beyond human metaphorically speaking (which would be enhanced to the superior god-like status of those characters). These characters were, therefore, a part of my conscious and they have, metaphorically speaking (not literally speaking), bestowed me with their superior god-like life essence. This is what made me feel powerful in a superior god-like sense.

    Another example would be with the character Amy Rose (a female hedgehog) from Sonic the Hedgehog. I perceive her as a superior god-like being not only because she is not human, but is an animal-like being in human form which I would define as an “angel” since angels are animal-like beings in human form. She is also a superior god-like being since she has an unreal personality (personalities that normal human beings don’t normally possess). Her personality is very fantasy-like and vigorous. This is unlike the personality of normal human beings since the personality of normal human beings are more “settled” and “down to Earth.” So it would seem as though the creators of anime make the personality of characters more life-like as well as superior and god-like to match their superior god-like world (environments) as well as their superior god-like forms. Amy (as well as other such innocent god-like characters) display expressions of innocence, love, etc. that is beyond human (more intense) and profound that expresses their world and forms that are also beyond human.

    Therefore, I have also embraced Amy as a part of my conscious as well which also made me feel powerful. But it did not make me feel powerful the way those other characters Cell and Vegeta did. Those other characters made me feel an “enraged epic” form of superior god-like pleasure. The form of superior god-like pleasure I have received from Amy would be a feeling of intense innocence and love.

    In order for me to anthropomorphize myself as different characters when I had my pleasure in the past, it would all depend on what mood I’m in. If I was in an innocent and loving mood, then my mind would relate that to characters such as Amy and would anthropomorphize myself as Amy herself. Same thing with other characters such as Cell and Vegeta if I were instead in an epic and powerful mood. I could even anthropomorphize myself as different characters by literally acting as such characters in my own mind. However, if I was in a bad mood, my mind would anthropomorphize me with non-anime real-life personalities that I hate. Now how I feel normally as a person is when I don’t have any personalities (anthropomorphizations) applied to me and this is how I feel most of the time throughout the day each day. But I notice that as I go out and meet new people, my mind will then automatically anthropomorphize me based on my perceived personality through my interaction with this person when I meet with and talk with this person face to face.

    Now if you are going to ask something such as why can’t I be in these anthropomorphized states all the time? It would be because my depression and anhedonia prevents this from happening. It is also because the mind is something that remains stable in a normal mood. Therefore, those “high” moods and “high” perceptions in which I am anthropomorphized as superior god-like beings, these are unstable mindsets that only last for brief moments. Other than that, I do not have such personalities attributed to me and I am in a completely stable and pleasureless mindset all throughout the day each day.

    Even if these characters I love were to tell me to accept a lifelong loss of pleasure that never gets better or fully recovers, that would not cause me to feel any anger towards them or any disappointment at all towards them whatsoever. This is obviously because I know who they are and they are superior god-like beings with superior god-like personalities to me no matter what.

    Also, it’s not how others think of you that determines who you are. Any personal meanings we create in life are all subjective and personal. Therefore, you can personalize yourself as being any character without any opinions from others as to who you are from their perspectives.

    Now aside from that, I think you can see now why pleasure is so important to me and why I view it as the sole defining life force of a human being. Without that, then not only am I denied the awesome epic as well as the loving innocence of these superior god-like characters, but I am also denied of my own life essence as a human being that I normally experience on a daily basis through doing activities I enjoy such as playing videogames, etc. Me being denied those things makes me utterly inferior and makes me and my life of no personal value or worth. My plan was to tap into and channel these superior god-like feelings of pleasure from those superior god-like characters in composing music that is exceptional and beyond human in terms of its powerful conveyed superior god-like emotions and to experience these said feelings through my own created compositions as well as through listening to music. I also wanted to channel and experience my own normal feelings of pleasure as well through composing and listening to music. But this has all failed.

    In conclusion, I would like to say that I am a megalomaniac who wishes to regain the most important thing to him (which would be my pleasure). I wish to have power, control, and dominion through pure pleasure alone over my life, over suffering and despair, and over other people who do not wish to help me, who have little to no value towards my pleasure, and who are mean to me. I will NOT be content, be at peace, or accept my life until I have my pleasure back. Even now as I am saying this, my own personality is being anthropomorhpized as Vegeta who is a psychopath who will not back down until he has his “powers” back and is able to rule and dominate over his life again. It’s just my own personality that is being anthropomorphized as Vegeta’s and not my pleasure since I don’t have any pleasure at the moment. But I swear, I will try all I can to regain my lost “powers” (my pleasure) and I will rule and dominate over this life through my pleasure in composing and through just being happy in life in general with very little suffering and despair in my life. And THEN I can experience the awesome life essence (pleasure) of these superior god-like characters as well as my own normal human pleasure once again.

    If I live my life accepting my loss of pleasure and not doing anything to try and regain it, then my mind will give me anthropomorphizations (personalities attributed to me) that I hate. But if I live my life not accepting it and become “enraged” to try to gain it back through therapy, medication, etc., then my mind will give me personalities that I love such as the personality of Vegeta (although I cannot feel pleasure from these personalities at the moment). So this is a main reason why I will only choose to live my life in ways that will give me attributed personalities that I love. Otherwise, I will instead have attributed inferior personalities that I hate and will forever hate myself and my life as a result. Just like how I hate people who have little to no value towards my feelings of pleasure who tell me to accept, be at peace, and be content with a lifelong loss of pleasure that never gets better or fully recovers, these anthropomorphizations (attributed personalities) are also exactly the same in that sense. In other words, I would have become these very people I hate by living my life through acceptance, being at peace, and being content with a lifelong loss of pleasure that never gets better or fully recovers.

    #67998
    rosamundi
    Participant

    The harder I tried to escape depression, the deeper I fell. I experienced depression and anhedonia for years, but more recently have found more and more pleasure in life – the more I let go of the expectations and beliefs I’d had before about what my life should be like. Meditation has helped more than anything else, because almost all of the depression was actually *caused* by the mental turmoil I was putting myself into. I do understand about trying to think things straight, but it just doesn’t work.

    I gained pleasure only when I stopped pushing so hard for it. That does not mean the same thing as not valuing pleasure – but I do accept that pleasure is only ever fleeting, not continuous.

    Who are “these people” – “In other words, I would have become these very people I hate by living my life through acceptance, being at peace, and being content with a lifelong loss of pleasure that never gets better or fully recovers.” How are you so all-knowing that you know that they have a lifelong loss of pleasure? What if you were wrong, and they recognised that nobody can be constantly happy? (Maybe pleasure exists only in relation to displeasure, so it can’t exist continuously? Or maybe by ‘pleasure’ you really mean hypermania, which isn’t something that is sustainable – or comfortable.)

    I’m confused by this: “This is unlike the personality of normal human beings since the personality of normal human beings are more “settled” and “down to Earth.” So it would seem as though the creators of anime make the personality of characters more life-like as well as superior and god-like to match their superior god-like world (environments) as well as their superior god-like forms.”

    You seem to be saying that you need to be like an anime character – I rather doubt that any of the anime creators expect anyone to see them other than as metaphor – nobody could live like that. You sound extremely cut off from real life, living exclusively in a world of ideas, rather than of realities.

    I genuinely hope that someone can help you to find a tiny chink in the armour you have built around yourself. You sound as though you are trying desperately hard to work things out, but you’ve got yourself very tangled up. People do care, but it is very hard to reach someone who pushes everyone away so very very vigorously and insists that they know the only truth. I wish you well.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by rosamundi.
    #68042
    Matt
    Participant

    Thanks for your understanding rosamundi and everyone else here. Therefore, I will also post a summary that explains different things here as well for you to respond to:

    Summary: All our own personal created meanings, our values and worths, and even our own morals (such as the ones you have) are all neutral. Thoughts are just thoughts no matter what they are. You can come up with a bland thought in your mind and you can then proceed to come up with a moral thought. But they are no different. They are only different in the sense that they are different words, images, sounds, etc. and that is it. They might send signals to different parts of the brain to make you do different deeds. But even those other parts of your brain are neutral as well. Your thoughts (created meanings of good and bad) cannot somehow project themselves onto other people, other objects, or even other parts of your brain and make these things good or bad. Therefore, since pleasure stands alone by itself as always feeling good no matter what while pain and despair stand alone by themselves as always feeling bad no matter what, this is the reason why pleasure is the only good thing in life while pain and despair are the only bad things in life. As I said before, good and bad are, therefore, scientific properties for this very reason. They are the functioning of those atoms and particles in our brains that give us pleasure as well as pain and despair and even our own neutral thoughts of good and bad cannot somehow project themselves onto our pleasure and suffering and make these things good, bad, or even neutral.

    So you would be delusional to think that your life is good or bad or that you are a good or bad person without feelings of pleasure or pain and/or despair since good and bad are actual scientific properties and your personal created meanings in life (your thoughts) can never be these scientific properties. As I said before, “good” is a scientific property (which would be the pleasure itself). Same thing for “bad” while all our thoughts remain a different scientific property (a neutral scientific property that is neither good or bad such as the functioning of the atoms and particles in objects and other things). So you might then be asking how it is that people with anhedonia (which is an absence or very little pleasure) find good meaning about themselves and their lives anyway. This would be because their minds trick them into thinking that they as human beings and that their lives are somehow good. They are tricked by thoughts alone when, in reality, these thoughts are all neutral anyway (neither good or bad). So these people would be delusional to somehow think that they as human beings and that their lives are somehow good anyway without their pleasure.

    I realize that it is in our evolutionary design to view other things in life besides our pleasure and suffering as being good or bad in life. But even our own evolutionary design (and, again, our created meanings through our thoughts) are all neutral. Also, I do still help and value others anyway. I can live my life valuing the pleasure of others. But all thoughts and personal meanings we create in life are all neutral. Therefore, even my own value towards the pleasure of others is neutral even if I were to tell myself the message such as that “At least I have given others pleasure because it is good for them despite my own absence of pleasure.” I am not in the minds of those other people and cannot experience their pleasure. Therefore, it is only my own pleasure that is good. Even if it were pleasure that is obtained from either witnessing others experiencing pleasure or even me obtaining pleasure from harming others, it would still be my own experienced pleasure that is good from my own perspective while the pleasure and suffering of others is only good and bad from their own perspectives. Even if I were somehow a psychopath right now who obtains pleasure from harming others, I would still be a good person since my own pleasure is the only thing that defines me and my life as being good.

    Now someone might tell me something such as that I am a good or bad person and the sound waves from that message that person spoke would then enter my brain. However, it is still my own interpretation that determines whether I am a good or bad person. Actually, as I just stated before, all those interpretations and messages are all neutral anyway and it would only be my own pleasure that makes me and my life good. Therefore, how good one is (their level of greatness) and how good one’s life is solely depends on the level of pleasure they have in life. Also, since pleasure always feels good in of itself no matter what while pain and despair always feel bad in of themselves no matter what and this is something that can never change while our thoughts (perceptions) of good and bad in life can change, this would also mean that our perceptions in life are neither good or bad. Some people might claim that suffering feels good to him/her. But he/she would be lying. It would only be the pleasure itself that is obtained from his/her suffering that feels good to him/her while the suffering stands alone by itself as always feeling bad.

    Even our own actions are neutral as well and they are the result of atoms and particles. Our thoughts of good and bad cannot even project themselves onto our own actions and make them good or bad either. As for a question one might ask such as that if good and bad are nothing more than one’s own pleasure and suffering, then why is it that we can even perceive other things in life as being good or bad in the first place and why is it that there are other things in life that are good and bad besides pleasure and suffering? The answer to that would be that we are just designed by evolution to benefit our survival by perceiving other things in life as being good or bad when, in fact, all our thoughts of good and bad are still nothing more than just thoughts anyway including even our own evolutionary design being neutral as well. Even if we perceive our own thoughts as being good or bad, even that perception itself is still nothing but a neutral perception. However, this neutral perception would then send emotional signals to our brain which are either emotions that feel good or bad. Therefore, it’s only our own emotions that are good and bad as well as pain itself being bad as well. All other things in life besides our own pleasure and suffering are also nothing but neutral (neither good or bad) atoms and particles as well.

    Now some might say that there is no grand purpose in this universe in that we must all live good worthwhile lives and all that is necessary to live is to eat, breathe, etc. and that I should, therefore, be just fine living a life of no pleasure. But my personal experience of pleasure was so profound and meaningful to me that there would absolutely be no way for me to be fine and content living such a life since my personal experience of pleasure (which would be all good feelings including love) tells me that it is the only greatest thing about me as a person and my life. My personal experience now of depression and anhedonia (emotional numbness) which I’m about to explain below is also the worst experience for me and this is yet another reason why I will never be fine and content living a life of little to no pleasure no matter what. Also, the reward system is a very vital part of living (our evolutionary design). Therefore, this is also another reason why many people will never be fine and content living a life with little to no pleasure just like me no matter what.

    In conclusion, I would like to say, again, that I have depression and severe chronic anhedonia (emotional numbness) in which I have no brief moments of any pleasure to any degree whatsoever and there is nothing good or worthwhile about me or my life anymore. If I choose to do things in my life anyway, I will feel enraged due to the fact that none of these things are actually good in my life and that will make me feel even more enraged towards my loss (absence) of pleasure. Therefore, I will instead let me, my life, and all my dreams waste away because at least that makes me feel less enraged and less depressed towards myself and my life. My anhedonia has lasted all day everyday for many months now and I don’t think it will get any better. I am also an atheist and this makes me feel even more enraged since I am unable to experience pleasure both in this life as well as in an eternal life of joy which would be heaven (which I now know is a false promised afterlife).

    #68070
    Snails
    Participant

    Dear Matt

    Thank you for taking the time again to explain how your life feels with depression and anhedonia. You have done a very good job at explaining this.

    Perhaps though what I would love to read from further writings from you is what parts of any of the advice others have given you, have somehow rung true and given you a feeling that perhaps the advice is worth giving a go.

    Go through again with an open mind and heart, all the comments and helpful advice people have offered (remembering a lot of this advice is from people who have gone through similar to you. This advice is given because we Care about you and what you to feel pleasure again). And list some of the things that you could maybe give a go. I would love to read such thoughts from you, and read about any small changes you are willing to make to help yourself get better.

    No one can make you better we can only help support you and make suggestions and tell you some of the things we have done to overcome situations like yours. But first you have to decide that you are ready to get better. Are you ready to try ???

    I was very glad to read you write ‘my anhedonia has lasted all day everyday for many months now’ that has given me such hope that you probably will regain your feelings again as you have once felt pleasure and it hasn’t been years, BUT you need to be at the period of your life that you are ready to stand up for yourself and be kind enough to yourself to try to get better.

    I look foreward to hearing about any small changes you make. Tell me about the smallest thing you see on one of your walks that at least once gave you pleasure, tell me how you spend 15 minutes sitting outside watching the orange and red sunset- not that it gave you pleasure but because it once did and though it gave you no pleasure at this stage of your life you focused on how the colours slowly changed and breathed slowly etc etc. Answer some of the questions that other people have ask you – that way your writing doesn’t come across as a copy and paste troll exercise but from someone who really wants help and allows others who care to try and provide that encouragement to you ok?

    Warmest wishes

    #68124
    Tavn
    Participant

    Long-time lurker, first-time poster here.

    I felt like I had seen this before, so I did a quick search. Turns out, this guy posted the exact same thing in dozens of forums. He even repeats the same replies. Either it’s a compulsion, he’s trying for a response no one’s giving him, or he’s a very dedicated troll. Probably, the second, with a bit of the third.

    Matt, if by some chance you’re sincere, you badly need to be in the care of a professional, and I hope you get the help you need.

    -tav

    #68144
    Matt
    Participant

    @Snails: The only thing I am doing in my life now is therapy and medication because that is the only thing at this point that ever has any hope of easing up this anhedonia because everything else has failed. As for all the other words of advice given here, all my arguments I’ve made here refute them all. So I will also post another convincing argument that refutes the idea that we are somehow good people and that our lives are somehow good without our pleasure and are good independent of our pleasure:

    Now speaking in terms of evolution, our minds are designed to experience emotions from our perceptions (thoughts) for a very important reason. First off, our thoughts are nothing more than what is used for rationalizations and problem-solving while our emotions are what encourage our survival in life. So if you have the perception (thought) that there is a wild animal that is going to attack you, that would then send an emotional signal to the fear center of your brain in order to encourage you to get out of there so that you survive. Same thing with experiencing pleasure. Pleasure is what also encourages us to benefit our survival and the survival of others as well (although pleasure can be misused in not benefiting our survival such as harming ourselves and others). Where I’m getting at with all of this is that our thoughts alone do not encourage our survival. The word “good” means “looking forward to things in life,” “being encouraged in life,” etc. But you cannot be encouraged in life without any emotions since only our emotions (as well as pain) are what is designed to encourage us to survive. The quoted term “looking forward to things in life” as well as any other terms for the word “good” are all derived from what only pleasure can achieve since “good” means “Our encouraged survival in life to benefit ours and others survival.” Thoughts alone without our emotions may make us do great things in life and make us benefit ours and others survival. But that is not the same thing as being “good” (our “encouraged survival in life”). Same thing applies with having no fear or any other emotions, but choosing to run away from a wild animal that is attacking you anyway. That is not the same thing as our “encouraged survival” either while you are running away from this dangerous animal in order to survive. Also, “good” and “bad” are both our “encouraged survival in life.” The difference is that our encouragement to survive in order to benefit ours and others survival (which would be pleasure) is the “good” version of our “encouraged survival.” But things such as fear, pain, and despair are evolution’s “warning” version of our “encouraged survival” since they warn us that something is wrong in life. So “warning” in terms of evolution is what is “bad” which makes pain and despair the bad version of “encouraged survival.” Therefore, this is why only pleasure is good while only pain and despair are bad while everything else in life is neutral (neither good or bad). So this is the reason why you cannot be a good or bad person and that your life cannot be good or bad if you did not have feelings of pleasure, pain, or despair.

    Now there may be other definitions of the words “good” and “bad” out there that others might have proposed, but they are all still derived from our evolutionary design which would be our “encouraged survival” in life (which would, again, be definitions that are derived from our emotions as well as our pain). If, for example, another definition of the word “good” means objects and people that help us avoid suffering, anything that helps us accept our losses and move on in life, or our actions of helping others, then even that is derived from pleasure and can only be achieved through pleasure because someone might then tell those with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) to be encouraged in life knowing that these things are good and that his/her actions of helping others is good despite his/her loss of pleasure. But as I just stated before, this person cannot be “encouraged” or “look forward” to those things in life without his/her pleasure since pleasure is the only thing that can achieve those quoted things (pleasure being all good feelings including love and motivation). The term “looking forward to” and any other such terms here are derived from “our encouraged survival” since you cannot look forward to anything in life without being encouraged. Even things such as value, worth, and beauty are also derived from “our encouraged survival” (which would be pleasure). Other things in life aside from one’s own pleasure might be defined as “good,” but without our encouragement (pleasure), then this version of “good” is nothing more than a neutral thought that doesn’t make us or our lives anything “good” in reality without our pleasure. Same concept applies for “bad.” Even if we were to somehow redefine the word “encouragement” to something else besides our pleasure and then tell someone to be encouraged in life knowing that there are other good and greater things in life aside from his/her pleasure, even this would still be nothing more than a neutral thought. As I said before, our “looking forward in life,” “being encouraged in life,” etc. is all derived from our own pleasure. So this is the reason why people are only fooling themselves into thinking that they are good people and that their lives are somehow good independent of their pleasure or if they had no pleasure in life. These thoughts of “good” and “bad” or any other created meanings for that matter that these people have are all nothing more than neutral thoughts. As I said before, thoughts are just thoughts no matter what they are and the only difference is that they are different sounds, images, words, etc. and that is all. They might send different signals to different parts of the brain, but even those other parts of our brain besides our pain and emotions are not our “encouraged survival” (meaning, that they are neither good or bad) and nor is anything else in life good or bad either aside from our own pleasure, pain, and despair. You are also not in the minds of others and cannot experience their pleasure, pain, and despair. Therefore, it is only your own pleasure, pain, and despair that are the only good and bad things from your own perspective while the pleasure, pain, and despair of others are the only good and bad things from their own perspectives. The pleasure, pain, and despair of others from your own perspective is neutral since it is nothing more than a neutral thought. Even if it is a good or bad value you have towards the pleasure, pain, and despair of others, that is still nothing more than a neutral thought. Therefore, how good one is (their level of greatness) and how good one’s life is solely depends on the level of pleasure he/she has in his/her life. Same thing applies for how bad one is and how bad his/her life is.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by Matt.
    #68148
    Snails
    Participant

    Hi Matt,
    I’m glad to hear you’re doing something to ease up your anhedonia. By your sentence ‘Everything else has failed’ I can tell you are trying, I’m really glad to hear as we all want you to feel better. Maybe you could list those things..we aren’t using paper here so the list can be as long as you wish as no trees have had to die in the making of the list… I look fore ward to reading it.

    Thank you for Evolutionary talk unfortunately I didn’t have time to read it as I had to rebury my cow – the bush turkeys keep digging her up and even though I stand at the window all day to keep a guard on her they sometime sneak past. I try not to be sad and angry about that as it is their nature to dig and find things to eat.

    But I was very glad to read you write ‘This is actually a theory I made of my own using little of what I already know about evolution’ that you posted today 12.56am on that other web site. You have a very good grasp on the english language … have you thought about writing a book?? I also really like Benchwarriors link to the Lawnmower man I think I will watch that movie tonight I remember really liking it the first time I saw it.. and bush turkeys don’t dig at night as being day birds they prefer to sleep.. but we have a lot of pythons here so sometimes you can hear their struggles.. but I will put the subtitles on so if that happens I wont miss any of the movie. Have you watched the Lawnmower Man?? well all the best to you and you’re search for happiness

    #68149
    Snails
    Participant

    Hi Tavn,
    Good to see you out here in the spot light:) maybe we’ll see more of you out here now that you have an account name to use now, and being you have broken your long time lurking record, thanks for doing that, by posting finally 🙂

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