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Life without dopamine

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  • #383664
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Ever since i took antidepressants, i lost all motivation and desires, im taking two SSRI’S, zoloft (maximum dose ) and mirtazapine 30 mg, you can see why i don’t have dopamine (dopamine is connected to both motivation and desires and ofcourse plasure) now imagine a life without a reward, would you still pursue things? Ofcourse you gonna say yes, cause you do actually have dopamine, what would be the motivation to do things? Without illusions or false hopes? What would make you do the effort without the reward? If you gonna say my will, where does your will come from? God? Please.

     

    The thing is, i can’t stop the antidepressants, not now anyway, i have to take it for another year, one year of my life, the funny thing is, before the antidepressants it was worse, i have GAD, and i would worry the whole day, want to cry most of the week, spend months and months dying out of boredom, but at least i enjoyed things, at least i had few motivation every now and then, now its completely shut, i kinda like it, its the best deal i could get, everything sadly, has a price, and the price of not having those is to not feel at all, no gulit, no plasure, no worry, no enjoyment, even the little things, that you think you enjoy them because you choose to, is just another thing, because guess what? Thats also dopamine job.

     

    What my motivation making this post you may ask? Boredom, pure boredom, i will get the same horrible answers i got in my last post.

    #383699
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    It takes a strong person to get help when they need it so well done. I watch my brother struggle with mental health issues and I know its not easy.  Do you have access to talk therapy to go along with the medication assistance?  My brother found it helpful if only to accept that he needed the medication.

    You are asking a question that often comes up with the practice of Buddhism and the idea of detachment. I recognize that in your case the detachment your experiences isn’t the same as choosing to practice the art of detachment. I wonder though if a intention practice of detachment might help?

    That said a skillful practice of detachment if difficult my observation is that it often leads to indifference. If I’m detached from desire or a outcome why bother, what the point? I’ve often observed that the more someone progress in the practice the more they disengage with life.  I know that is a trap I often fall into.

    The intention is to be fully engaged in life as it is in the moment without attaching expectations, fears, hopes all of which tend to be based on the past while projecting one self into some imagined future.

    What is the motivation to do things?  Life

    Regardless of circumstances, regardless of like or don’t like your in it and even a choice of not playing is playing. Life does not care, (in the usual way we define care’) though it does push (demand) for growth and new life (which is a kind of care, we just desire to control the process)

    I like watching movies and stories about mountain climbers. Have you noticed that 95 percent of the story tends to be focused  on the struggle to get to the top, 1 or 2 percent about being on top with the remainder if any about climbing coming down.  (As a metaphor the most important part is the return. To take back and apply what was learned during the struggle.)

    We as a society tend to focus on the moment on the top, the gold metal which would be great if life stopped their, but you can’t live on top a mountain. But this is a conflict as its the drama of the engagement that pulls us into the story is the struggle. So which is it the moment on top or the engagement that matters?

    I watch  the Olympics and pay attention to the stories after the gold metal winners go home. After achieving that height how well do they descend? How many will suffer depression? How many will handle the descent as well as the assent? Its seems win or lose depression doesn’t care who to attack.

    Is their choice here? I don’t know. I act as if their is. Its a work in progress… to engage in life as it is in the moment, saying Yes to Life as it is (Experiencing that as Love) while Detached from desire or outcome. Sounds like a contradiction but it isn’t.

    Joseph Campbell when asked a question about meaning and purpose said that There was no point in asking the question when You are the answer.  Life does not give you meaning or purpose it is you regardless of circumstance, that gives meaning and purpose to Life.

    What is the motivation to do things without dopamine or reward? What is the motivation to do things with dopamine with and without reward? I suspect the answer can be the same. Your writing the story.

     

    #383702
    Peter
    Participant

    So many grammar issues in my post – it’s a vision thing – let me try again

    Hi Murtaza

    It takes a strong person to get help when they need it so well done. I watch my brother struggle with mental health issues, and I know its not easy.  Do you have access to talk therapy to go along with the medication assistance?  My brother found it helpful if only to accept that he needed the medication.

    You are asking a question that often comes up with the practice of Buddhism and the concept of detachment. I recognize that in your case the detachment your experiencing isn’t the same as choosing to practice the art of detachment. I wonder though if an intentional practice of detachment might help?

    A skillful practice of detachment is difficult, and my observation is that it often leads to the trap of indifference. If I’m detached from desire or an outcome why bother, what the point? Its not unusual to find that the more someone progress in the practice the more they tend to disengage with life.  I know that is a trap I often fall into.

    The intention of the practice is to be fully engaged in life, as it is in the moment, without attaching expectations, fears, hopes. Such Attachments tend to be based on the past with the affect of projecting oneself into some imagined future.

    What is the motivation to do things?  Life

    Regardless of circumstances, regardless of like or don’t like, you’re it, where even a choice of not playing is playing.  Life does not care, (in the usual way we define care) though Life does push, even demand, growth and new life. (Which is a kind of care) It’s just that the ego desire is that we had control of the process and that it be painless. (Growth always involves something “dying” so painless isn’t going to happen. Life devours life for Life. Every creation is a destruction, every destruction a creation)

    … I like watching movies and stories about mountain climbers. Have you noticed that 95 percent of the story tends to be focused on the struggle to get to the top, 1 or 2 percent about being on top with the remainder if any about the climb down and return to, what comes next… Happy ever after, we assume and don’t really wish to look further as the next story starts.   (As a metaphor the most important part of a journey is the return. To take back and apply what was learned. )

    As a society we like the moment on the top, the gold metal. But you can’t live on top a mountain. Can you taste the conflict? Its the drama of the engagement with the struggle that pulls us into the story is the struggle, while the moment on the top is almost a bitter sweet one. At some level we know that the moment at the top doesn’t mean that much…

    So which is it? The moment on top or the engagement that matters? When we tell our stories where do we spend the most time?

    I enjoy watching the Olympics and like to hear the stories about what happened after the gold metal winners go home. After achieving that height, how well did they descend?  How many handled the descent as well as the assent? How many suffered depression? It seems to me that win or lose depression doesn’t care who to won or lost. In either case it is the ability to descend well that is a determining factor.

    Is their choice here? I don’t know. I act as if there is. Its a work in progress… to engage in life as it is in the moment, saying Yes to Life as it is (A “knowing” that Life as it is, is Love) while detached from desire or outcome. Sounds like a contradiction but it isn’t.

    Joseph Campbell when asked a question about meaning and purpose said that There was no point in asking the question when You are the answer.  Life does not give you meaning or purpose it is you, regardless of circumstance, that gives meaning and purpose to Life. So, play????

    What is the motivation to do things without dopamine or reward?  What is the motivation to do things with dopamine with and without reward?

    I suspect the answer may be the same. You’re writing the story,

    #383722
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear peter, while i appreciate your replay, especially you did it twice (which is something i would never do lol) i just don’t understand most of it, i like direct answers, but im gonns replay to the ones i understood.

    Do you have access to talk therapy to go along with the medication assistance?

    No, and im glad i don’t.

     

    I wonder though if an intentional practice of detachment might help?

    How so? If the goods doesn’t feel good, and i can’t undo the detachment, i can’t control it and only pick the good, because its not a me problem, its a manufacture problem.

     

    What is the motivation to do things?  Life

    If an animal doesn’t manufacture the right things in his brain to be healthy so he can hunt and live, he won’t live, he will survive.

     

    Have you noticed that 95 percent of the story tends to be focused on the struggle to get to the top

    I noticed that most movies have happy ending, to push this idea to people, the optimism, the toxic optimism, this is why i look for movies that speak the truth, for once. A truth similar to mine.

     

    Its the drama of the engagement with the struggle that pulls us into the story is the struggle

    Unless there is something internal that makes you not engage, something outside of your control, you can’t project your experience into others, you can’t say that you must follow this way, because its better to someone when he has a completely different life and mindset, the only right way to live is to what he think is the right way to live.

     

    So which is it? The moment on top or the engagement that matters?

    To me? None.

     

    Is their choice here? I don’t know

    I know. Its no, i can’t produce dopamine, and i can’t live without it, isn’t it funny? That i live like an animal? No feelings, no desires, just surviving, without any point or goal, just for the sake of survival, a ture to my nature, an animal.

     

    saying Yes to Life as it is

    Accept being an animal, forget about being human, forget feelings and desires and what makes life good, this is what you are saying, sure i will, a human would suicide, he would care enough to know that this is bullsh*t, that this life isn’t worth living, isn’t worth the trouble, that at least he would go with dignity.

     

    Life does not give you meaning or purpose it is you

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>You can’t give purpose without a desire or motivation behind it, you simply can’t.</p>
     

    So, play????

    And im not playing right now? Sounds like this game is decided by you not the person who should play it?

     

    What is the motivation to do things with dopamine with and without reward?

    You missed the point, anything you want to do has either a desire or a motivation, those supported by dopamine, if you lack that, other things may take place (a belief lets say or value) if you didn’t have either, what gonna makes you do something? How would you force your brain without either? You simply can’t.

    #383947
    Peter
    Participant

    I forgot that we do not relate to language in the same ways and so it is unlikely that we will relate or understand each other.

    I don’t know Murtaza I read your posts and feel that you are working against yourselves.

    You are certain their is a good and how that good would lead to a happy life, only such a good is out of reach for you. Nothing will convince you otherwise. Playing a game you deny your playing

    What is it you want from those that read your words?

    #383956
    Peter
    Participant

    Supertramp – logical song

    When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful
    A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical
    And all the birds in the trees, well they’d be singing so happily
    Oh joyfully, playfully watching me
    But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible
    Logical, oh responsible, practical
    And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable
    Oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical

    There are times when all the world’s asleep
    The questions run too deep
    For such a simple man
    Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
    I know it sounds absurd
    Please tell me who I am

    I said, watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical
    Liberal, oh fanatical, criminal
    Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re acceptable
    Respectable, oh presentable, a vegetable
    Oh, take it take it yeah

    But at night, when all the world’s asleep
    The questions run so deep
    For such a simple man
    Won’t you please tell me what we’ve learned
    I know it sounds absurd
    Please tell me who I am, who I am, who I am, who I am
    ‘Cause I was feeling so logical
    D-d-digital
    One, two, three, five
    Oh, oh, oh, oh
    It’s getting unbelievable

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