Hi Peter,

I acknowledge that my invitation to pause and reflect was misunderstood as assigning equal blame. That wasn’t my aim, nor was it intended to determine who was right. This, I agree, was a failure on my part, especially given how the metaphor landed even as I found myself entangled in it. I can’t un-ring the bell, so I’ll let that be.

Please don’t think that I’m accusing you again and again for using the wrong metaphor, or a metaphor that I interpreted in a certain way. I certainly didn’t want to do that. In my previous post I was just musing about why mirror wasn’t the best metaphor, but I really don’t hold any bad feelings towards you. I’m sorry if my insisting on it made you feel judged. I do apologize if I’ve hurt your feelings by bringing it up again in my last post.

One question that hasn’t yet been addressed is: in an online forum, what is our expectation around accountability when someone has hurt us? Do we cancel them? Should they cancel themselves? I hope not.

No, no, of course not! As I said, I didn’t intend to torture you with the metaphor thing, if that’s what you’re referring to. I don’t want to cancel you, or tell you to cancel yourself.

I know you’ve shared about people being quick to cancel each other when discussing political events in the US (if I understood you well?), and how it upsets you and makes you feel sad. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you, but I assure you, I have no such inclinations and have never been thinking in those terms.

Sometimes all we can do is accept what is and give ourselves credit for expressing our truth with clarity and care. Accountability, in this context, may not mean punishment or withdrawal, but rather a willingness to stay present, to listen, to reflect, and, when possible, to repair. Still, that’s not always easy, and it’s not always mutual. But I believe there’s value in resisting the impulse to erase or condemn and instead choosing to remain in the discomfort to see what it might reveal. That is what I’ve witnessed here, for which I’m grateful.

I completely agree with you. We’re learning in this space how to stay in dialogue with each other, even when emotions run high. We’re learning how to express our feelings and what’s bothering us, while remaining open to hearing the other side. Cancelling each other is not what we should be about.

What was “cancelled” in the July/August conflict was a specific action that was abusive to others. The person wasn’t cancelled, but the hurtful behavior was.

Lastly, in your reply I noticed a strong, even triggering, reaction to “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I know it’s often used to express compassion, but I experience it as a kind of split… a way of loving that still divides. It feels like it keeps the heart slightly closed, even when the intention is to keep it open. That’s not a critique of your use of it, but an acknowledgment of how it landed in me. To be honest, I was horrified that what I wrote connected to that notion as anyone on the receiving end of that phrase is unlikely to experience it as being truly seen.

I see. Actually I never really use this phrase, because I don’t like the terms sinner and the Christian notion that we’re all sinners. But I’ve used it now to exemplify the difference between the person and their actions. But I see that it disturbed you… perhaps it’s because of its religious connotation and what it evokes in you? (I was horrified that what I wrote connected to that notion as anyone on the receiving end of that phrase is unlikely to experience it as being truly seen.)

Peter, it’s getting late here, and I’ll have to postpone replying to the rest of your post till tomorrow. But I’m glad you value our exchange, even if it’s stirring some strong emotions at times. I hope we can continue our conversation and maybe explore some of these topics in more depth.

Greetings till later!

Hi Peter,

I think Alessa gave good examples of 2 different ways to deal with the conflict (thank you, Alessa!).

One is to passively take the hits and wait till perhaps someone else intervenes. The other is to “fight” and stand your ground, rather than withdraw or detach/go numb. I guess in the first case, the person would probably have to be a little detached or desensitized, because it’s hard to take the hits without wanting to do something about it, i.e. without wanting to protect yourself from pain.

I guess the way I approach conflict is that I believe that the person who took the passive approach (endurance and possibly detachment/numbing) isn’t really doing themselves a favor, i.e. their endurance might be a defense mechanism, but it’s not the optimal way to deal with conflict.

Of course, in certain situations, when it’s about physical or sexual abuse, and the abuser is much stronger and you don’t have anywhere to go, the best is to just numb yourself and endure. And there are many victims of abuse who were forced to do that. It’s a valid survival strategy, and I absolutely don’t judge it.

What I’m talking about is another type of conflict, where emotional abuse might be involved, and it’s between two adults. I believe emotional abuse doesn’t need to be endured (unless again, there are specific situations, e.g. someone stuck in a marriage with a narcissistic partner, and not having the means to leave. So they need to endure certain things because they can’t leave, at least not for the time being).

I believe that in situations where there is emotional abuse, and where we’re not in danger to respond, the healthiest way to deal with the conflict is to be assertive. Assertive meaning using non-violent communication skills, but still – doing something, rather than sitting with the pain and enduring it.

You said:

You are correct to note I seek safety through detachment and how that impacts how I communicate. However, the intention isn’t to avoid discomforted or ‘stop’ conflict but to ‘sit’ in it… I’m ok being uncomfortable.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but it seems you prefer to sit with the pain, but also be somewhat detached from it, right? And to me, it’s not really sitting with the pain, if we numb ourselves a little. To me it’s kind of a contradiction.. please help me understand what you mean?

I wonder if my framing, that every interaction, especially online, carries some element of projection and mirroring, is part of what’s causing both of us to feel misunderstood. It’s a lens I’ve come to trust as a kind of truth, but I recognize it may not resonate in the same way for others. Perhaps we can agree to disagree here.

I see that this is possible: that every interaction carries an element of projection and mirroring. What I was trying to convey though (and maybe this is where we disagree) is that sometimes, we need to respond, rather than sit with the pain and do nothing (and only analyze ourselves while not addressing the abuse that we might be faced with).

I do agree that we should always pause and examine ourselves, i.e. see where the pain is coming from. But if the pain is coming from the outside, then we should address it, even if our pain may be augmented by our own sensitivity.

It’s like you have a physical wound and someone is hitting you on that wound: do you ask the person the stop, or you tell to yourself: “this hurts so much because of my own wound – and I should endure it, because I should be stronger, I shouldn’t be so sensitive. I need to get stronger, I need to be less sensitive.”

Basically, that’s what I was trying to convey. I don’t know how you see this?

I also noticed a frustration, perhaps even a touch of anger… directed inward. I often feel clumsy when trying to communicate something that feels clear inside but lands differently outside. Language, especially metaphor, is how I make sense of things, but I’m learning that it doesn’t always translate well.

Yes, I think metaphors can be tricky because the same symbols can evoke a different meaning for different people, I guess. Maybe a little bit like dream interpretation (though a metaphor is more universal than a dream)?

I do notice you like to communicate via stories and metaphors… I’m sorry that I misunderstood your poem and concluded something you didn’t mean 🙁

Please don’t blame yourself. I’m glad that we could talk it through and explain what we really meant. I hope the metaphor part is not an issue any more and there are no hard feelings on your part regarding that?

If at any point you find this conversation uncomfortable, please say so. My intention isn’t to impose my beliefs on you, but to try to explain my perspective, and also to better understand where you’re coming from. I too value this conversation 🙏

I Tee

I think I can name the ‘loop’ I’ve sensed in the pattern of our dialogue – ‘Yet But’.
You tend to lean into the outer, objective experience of conflict – what was said, what needs to be addressed. While I tend to lean into the inner, subjective experience – what was felt, what shifted, what resisted. Both of us I think caught in the loop of – ‘yes but’ the outer experience…. ‘yes but’ inner experience…

Of course both experience are real, and both are happening together. But communicating across that difference isn’t easy. It’s like we’re each holding a different part of the elephant, trying to describe the whole.

Anyway thanks for the engagement and holding the space. I apologize if I projected my own insecurities around communication.

Hi Peter,

I’ve seen your latest post only after having submitted mine…

I think I can name the ‘loop’ I’ve sensed in the pattern of our dialogue – ‘Yet But’.
You tend to lean into the outer, objective experience of conflict – what was said, what needs to be addressed. While I tend to lean into the inner, subjective experience – what was felt, what shifted, what resisted. Both of us I think caught in the loop of – ‘yes but’ the outer experience…. ‘yes but’ inner experience…

Yes, that too might be the reason (in addition to what I suggested above 🙂 ). You’re right, I’m very focused on what happens on the outside – if the conflict is of the kind that I believe requires some outer action too. However, I don’t focus only on the outer, and have learned how important it is to actually first pay attention to the inner experience, and only then respond.

But I think that we must address both: fist the inner, then the outer (if the situation calls for an outer action).

Hi Peter,

Speaking for myself I’m finding it interesting that I find myself leaning in to inner experience and even further, non-duality as I move further into the second half of life. And how that influences and gets in the way when I try to engage in dialog with others.

Do you think that your focus on the inner experience may have to do with the passage of time and perhaps a spiritual quest, which at this point seems more important than perhaps some material goals and pursuits?

And how that influences and gets in the way when I try to engage in dialog with others.

Speaking of dialogue with others, may I notice something? You haven’t commented on my “confession” that I may have projected things on you. Of course, you don’t have to, but I wonder if it is because you felt uncomfortable reading it, or you’re perhaps still processing that information and are more focused on your inner experience, rather than on replying?

I’m just asking because on the outside, it may seem that what I said wasn’t significant or relevant to you, whereas on the inside you might be thinking about it and processing it? In other words, your inner experience might be different than what it is visible on the outside?

Please, don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not judging you at all. I’m only mentioning it in case you want to explore how your focus on the inner experience might affect how you come across to those engaged in a dialogue with you.

Yes I think that reflects what I meant. I think its a good practice during the engagement with the conflict and after, particularly if the outcome wasn’t as one might have hoped.

I’m glad I got it right 🙂 Yes, I think it’s a good, balanced approach. If the outcome isn’t the one we might have hoped for, then yes, we need to process it internally and draw some conclusions. And maybe let go of some expectations regarding that person…

Anyway, I hope I wasn’t too upfront and am not pestering you. Please feel free to engage as much or as little as it feels comfortable for you ☀️

Hello Peter,

I just wanted to let you know that I do appreciate your calm presence and attitude to conflicts.

I don’t even know if I understand it all correctly. I’m not very smart. But what really matters to me is your energy… your peaceful, grounding energy. ❤️

You help me a lot just by being the way you are. ❤️

See you all around later. 🤗

🦋