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Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships

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  • #426929
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Aware Seaturtle:

    I will respond to your next message in another response since this one seems long“- it is easier for me to respond to shorter posts, and I think the same is true to you, so I will keep my replies shorter as well.

    The big question is when, should I get it over with or wait for more time to be between us, for the emotional intensity to lessen“- it is up to you, of course. Seems to me (and I may be wrong) that unless you get emotionally attached to another man and have a sense of safety in this future relationship, you might react intensely to seeing N again no matter how much time goes by.

    “He certainly was a CCP, however he wasn’t worse than my father. I think actually that he was better than F, just enough to where I thought he was a good partner…“- my mother was the biggest CCP of any and all people I came across in my life, a HCP and a CCP. I have to be careful to not project her into other people and see her in them when they are not as bad as her. Again, no one in my personal life even came close.

    He (F)  treated me like I was a bad kid when I wasn’t. Just accused me of things I didn’t do, and judged my intentions behind pretty much everything“- reminds me of the cash incident when N accused you of doing something you didn’t do and judged you for intentions you didn’t have, suggesting that.. you are a bad person.

    I thought about it earlier: maybe he was paranoid on that day, didn’t smoke enough weed and was on edge.. maybe forgivable,  a fluke but what is not forgivable that later when confronted with the incident he lied and said he was joking and wouldn’t budge over time, weed or not. The latter brings his behavior to the gaslighting level.

    “Anyways, my point is, F was my worst CCP, believe it or not N was an upgrade from him”- I believe you.

    “I am not sure how much this is wanting to run from a predator, versus not wanting to run into an ex ever, because of that gut wrenching awkwardness“- can you define or explain what I boldfaced (sometime, no rush)

    Coming to think about it, I need to get ready to leave to the 18 degrees cold outside. I will read and reply (got your second post a little while ago) Sat morning.

    Before I go, from the 2nd post: “It is just hard for me to accept that everything was N’s fault, that seems like a slippery slope, I must have done some bad too right?“- right, yes, surely. I used to struggle with this a LOT. It took me a long time to endure the fact that I did wrongs and hurt people, and understand that becoming a mentally/ emotionally healthier person equals becoming a better and better person. We live in a world where emotional sickness and hurting people is rampant and massive, no wonder .. no wonder we are all (almost all..?.) hurt people who hurt other people. This state of the world is not a license to do bad, of course. It’s just that we have to look at the bigger picture with that 3rd eye and process it with a vibrating crown chakra. I’ll write more tomorrow,

    anita

    #426932
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    “Anyways, my point is, F was my worst CCP, believe it or not N was an upgrade from him, which is why I think I put him on a pedestal for so long”-

    – imagine choosing your own Aware- Seaturtle’s standards of what a good partner means is in your life vs relative standards, (relative to your father, in this case). A highly vibrating crown chakra will not be confined to one’s childhood/ past standards.

    “Ending things with N, was sort of like how I felt when I moved out of F’s house… when I first left their home I released this enormous backpack of responsibility to wonder what they were thinking/feeling and how I could solve it”- imagine a carefree childhood where the child does not worry about what her parent is thinking and feeling.

    “I do have a big heart, I know this about myself. My ability to empathize can be too much… My capacity to love is intense, I am very thoughtful when I love someone, this was something I wished to have in return from N… When I tried to bring it up, like ‘you know if you did …. it would mean SO much to me.’ But he would then make me feel badly for even mentioning it, like I didn’t accept him the way he was…which I guess is what it was! Little did I know he literally didn’t know how, he wanted me to accept that he just ‘didn’t know how,’ which I accepted as an excuse for a while until I realized he didn’t even want to try to learn, for me…that is true love”-

    – your heart chakra vibrates intensely. His heart chakra’s vibrations are low. Not his fault. Thing is, no point in hitting a rock with a stick trying to get water out of it (not after a long-enough period of time of hitting it and then understanding what happened/ is happening).

    When I first sought therapy at 17, I thought I needed to vent about my mom, after she broke up the marriage, and was the more obvious wrong doer“- your motivation as a child/ teenager was to please your father (F) because of the two parents he was The Critical One.

    But what caught me by surprise, was my several years in therapy were 80% about F“- because he was the critical parent.

    “I have not truly dug into my mom, M, what her impact on me was.. When I first read the bolded line above that you wrote, I thought of M. When I was home for Christmas, my sisters and I had a ‘Sister Disney Day,’ planned, hahah our thing. Anyways my mom tried so many times to guilt us for it, She gets VERY possessive of our time around Christmas… she drank wine and literally cried about it to us. What I learned that night: I felt bad for her…  my youngest sister said ‘just don’t let her sway you…  mom usually convinces you to feel bad for her.’ This was eye opening to me, was my mom emotionally manipulating me?? YES. I then went upstairs, keeping this mind, an ah-ha moment if you will. When I walked in she got very emotional (wine emotional). I was aware of her ‘tears’ THE FAKE TEARS I HAVE WITNESSED! No wonder I believed N’s little tears were genuine, I have been tricked my whole life, been confused on how to spot real ones.. I stayed strong and said ‘mom you know what we have had this planned it is not fair of you to be making us feel guilty about it,’ I could tell she was surprised by my lack of empathy for her, she sort of snapped out of THAT manipulation tactic, and tried another one…  crying because she ‘felt bad’ that we ‘thought’ she was trying to guilt us. It was so eye opening, I saw it all with my third eye, just un-phased emotionally by her, yay! what a release. I got my things and left, saying a kind goodnight.”-

    – an Amazing testimony of a 3rd eye- crown chakra highly vibrational cooperation and good work, I am deeply impressed! One lesson: when you spot a possibility of a manipulative technique in-progress, expose it to the possible manipulator. If she/ he expresses any introspection and considers your input, then that’s good. If  he/ she continues with the same manipulative technique but with a twist (like M did in this example, making you feel bad about her feeling bad… over making you feel bad) or changes to another manipulative technique (like F does when he changes a topic, or when he lies), then you know who and what you are dealing with.

    I will reply to your 2nd post from yesterday next.

    anita

    #426933
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    Both of my parents were CCP’s, not sure who was worse but probably pretty equal. Then I upgraded to living with only F, saw my mom’s errors, removed her from the pedestal. Then I had only one CCP, compared to two. Then I upgraded to N, a CCP, but lesser of one than F. So I am swimming in the right direction. Hopefully all this ’emotional predation’ is making me stronger and not wearing me down..,  what do you think?… This theory evolved as I wrote it, interesting what I came up with though and I am curious what you think”-

    – My crown chakra loves it when you ask what I think (crown chakra vibrating emoji). Well, (1) I think that as an adult, you are way less affected/ harmed by (most) emotional predators than you are as a child growing up with an emotional predator. If you had a child with N, your child may feel upgraded as an adult with her own romantic partner, (2) You are swimming in the right direction, removing people from pedestals right and left (“kicking a** in the morning and taking names in the evening”, from one of my favorite all-times songs), and getting stronger!

    “You quoted: Emotional predators. com… As I was first reading this, ‘they…make emotional displays to influence…charm, disarm… others,’ I thought of myself. I feel I behaved this way with F at times. When he would come to me with an issue he believed I had, it was often those moments that I conveniently decided to share something that would make him sympathize with me.. For example… See when I first read your response… I thought maybe I had been like that before, emotional displays to disarm… and I wasn’t ‘claim[ing] to be the victim…of the person [I was] in fact victimizing'”-

    – your example was that you told F about M’s infidelities for the purpose of manipulating him, moving his attention away from the fact that you lied to him about your location. You then paused on that theory (“actually pause on my theory here”) and expressed that you told him about M’s infidelities because you felt closer to him following him forgiving you in that instance, and felt that you “owed him emotional honesty”-

    – first, every human manipulates and lots of manipulations are NECESSARY for the well-being of the individual and society. An effective, good parent is one who successfully manipulates their child to behave in socially desirable ways by giving them a purposefully manipulative “treat” like saying “thank you” to the child, smiling at them with approval when they behave in a socially desirable way, and on the other hand, expressing disapproval (not in a severe way because a child is very sensitive to a parent’s disapproval) when the child behaves in a socially undesirable way. Necessary if you want to promote the well-being of the child and the people he/ she interacts with.

    When as an adult you treat a person you don’t know politely, part of the reasoning, an instinctive reasoning perhaps, is to promote a positive exchange with the person and avoid a negative exchange. That’s manipulative but necessary because we are social animals.

    So, “they…make emotional displays to influence” (from emotional predators. com) is something every person has to do for the benefit of all: it’s what good parenting and being polite is about.

    If whenever you felt anger at people, you’d be honest about your anger by expressing it just as you feel it, you’d be in jail sooner than later. To be honest while not abandoning our crown chakras,.. we have to THINK before we express or act: what would be the consequence of this or that behavior, and then choose a behavior that will give us what we validly need in the situation while being fair to the other person.. manipulative, but necessary.

    Back to your example: you were caught in a lie by F=> your anxiety went up.. he forgave you=> your anxiety went down, you felt close to him, and grateful you wanted to.. no longer hide what you knew, to be on his side.

    But let’s say that your motivation was to redirect his attention away from your lie: could you accept that you, Seaturtle, were not a perfect specimen back then.. and never will be one? Accept this while continuing to become (a process) a better and better human being?

    Personally, I do not consider a child (of minor age or adult age) a bad person for lying to and otherwise manipulating one’s own abusive/ mistreating parent, one who never corrected or apologized for his/ her significant mistreatment. Not any more than I’d consider a person being robbed a bad person for lying to/ manipulating the robber into not going through with the crime.

    “My confusion on emotional sincerity is literally making me question my own emotions, I do not want to be like my parents. The example my mom set for me was that when my dad was upset with her (for money or cheating) she would always cry, I think to disarm him. I wonder if this… has something to with why I would have involuntary tears come to my face quite often when trying to have a confrontational talk with my dad. Less now, it has actually been years since I have had a real confrontation with him so I am not sure if this is still a bodily instinct”-

    – Having witnessed M’s manipulative tears aimed at disarming F while not changing her own wrong behaviors, you didn’t and you don’t want to be like her, so you question your own tears.. M took away from you the privilege of simply crying.

    “It is just hard for me to accept that everything was N’s fault, that seems like a slippery slope, I must have done some bad too right? You know when you read information that is so one sided, and you wonder, well I wonder the other side of the story… I wonder this, the more one sided I present the relationship, as in he did the most wrong, then what is the other side of the story as to make it more reliable information.. the self doubt here..”-

    -the other side of the story is that you tried to make N someone who he is not, so to get what you validly need in a relationship, all along thinking that it’d benefit him as well if he was.. someone who he is not. Your error is in doing this for too long, and so, in totality, you have hurt yourself and you didn’t help him, maybe you made him feel worse about himself than he felt before you being in his life.

    If this is what happened, you have to forgive yourself because you weren’t aware back then.  Back then (including when you posted here), you were overly impressed with his external looks (“He is a beautiful tall man…gorgeous“), with him being a hard worker (“he works works works..“) and with your (low vibrational and material) family’s opinions about him (“My family absolutely loves him… They say he (is) very financially savvy and aware of..  the business world“). You saw N through their eyes, not through your 3rd eye. So, you tried to make it work.

    Forgive yourself. The only valid use of guilty feelings is to correct one’s behavior. So, in the future, see a man through your 3rd eye and if he is not what you need, let him go.

    “Wow when I read this, it has N written all over it. This drove my crazy, I would ask the most direct and simple a question could be and he would act like I was speaking another language, it was infuriating actually.”- not what you need, to say the least. Let’s say he wasn’t able to answer your simple questions. In that case, you have 3 options: (1) to stay with him and ask no questions (hatchling/ Seaturtle in a cage), (2) stay with him and keep asking questions, and getting infuriated, (3) having mercy on the two of you, wishing him well and existing the relationship.

    The 3rd option is the empathetic and crown chakra’s fueled answer, both heart and crown chakras vibrating in unison.

    “He made me feel that if I did those things he would be more available, emotionally. He said specific things like this, I can’t remember exact words but just little comments that he would respect me more, have more to give me emotionally, if I brought home a lot of money”-

    – he was dishonestly manipulative, and I doubt that he would have ben able (if you brought in a lot of money) to be more emotionally available to you. This right here is one of his wrongdoings in the relationship with you, something he did wrong to you. (It occurred to me a long time ago, by the way, that maybe part of his attraction to you was that your father is financially well off, maybe rich…?)

    “We do! I welcome constructive criticism, I want to see myself!.. I want to see this correctly”- Seaturtle’s vibrating 3rd eye emoji .

    I wrote to you: “N is not interested in being seen as he is, this is why he deceives”, and you responded:  “Wow. you are so right he was not interested in being seen, and I wanted to see him so badly, I thought If I tried hard enough I could…. wow“- what a waste of your life (on top of the waste of his life), it would have been to support his deceit.

    “This is so tricky because he would say mental strength advice, and it felt useful to me, so I would then believe he is a good partner because he is providing me with things that are making me better. But then his mental strength being rooted in interpersonal dishonesty appeared in other ways, I didn’t see him as lacking mental strength, he lacked honesty which is like a liar giving you nutrition facts… the nutrition facts might be true, so in a nutritional conversation they appear very smart and honest, then they lie in other areas of life so it is harder to make the connection to their dishonesty, because they were honest sometimes.“-

    – very well said. Unlike portrayals of people in many cartoons and certain movies, people are not one way or another all the time.

    “It is certainly concerning (the substances he used and probably still uses). I gain empathy for it when I think about how his dad is an avid cannabis enthusiast/smoker, like literally always has a joint in his pocket hiding it from his wife, who pretends she doesn’t see it“- imagine you being in her position if you were married to N.. supporting his deceit, history on repeat,

    “he worked 10pm-5pm the next day! He worked 20 hour shifts back to back, he slept in his truck… I sort of rescued him, I showed him how ridiculous it was , he told me, after he quit that I am the one that got him out. He was in a loop and I showed genuine concern and showed him”- you helped to work fewer hours, for one. Good thing.

    Are you saying to not wish him well? I think you are saying to wish him well but I just thought to ask haha.“- I am saying to wish him well, as in to send him a positive though and sentiment because it’d make you feel better about yourself and help you move on (I am really bad with sarcasm, so I don’t use it).

    This is a long post, but well. It took me a long time to post this because of technical issues with my computer, it keeps doing strange things…

    anita

     

    #426934
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “Seems to me (and I may be wrong) that unless you get emotionally attached to another man and have a sense of safety in this future relationship, you might react intensely to seeing N again no matter how much time goes by.”

    I wonder why this is? Can I not develop this safety within myself?

    “my mother was the biggest CCP of any and all people I came across in my life, a HCP and a CCP. I have to be careful to not project her into other people and see her in them when they are not as bad as her. Again, no one in my personal life even came close.”

    Did it take trial and error with partners before you were able to find one that met your standards? For me I feel my parents set such low standards, low enough to where I thought N belonged on a pedestal.

    “reminds me of the cash incident when N accused you of doing something you didn’t do and judged you for intentions you didn’t have, suggesting that.. you are a bad person.”

    I was reminded of this as well. I even thought maybe I was projecting F on N, the big question while I was still with N, was asking myself is he like F or am I projecting..

    “I thought about it earlier: maybe he was paranoid on that day, didn’t smoke enough weed and was on edge.. maybe forgivable,  a fluke but what is not forgivable that later when confronted with the incident he lied and said he was joking and wouldn’t budge over time, weed or not.”

    I think this is exactly what it was actually! Because it was Thanksgiving day and when we were eventually home preparing for dinner, there were a couple things I needed from his house, like my mixing bowls for cupcakes! I decided I could make other bowls work, but then N jumped at the opportunity to go run home, an hour round trip. I honestly didn’t hesitate much because his energy was not good anyways. But then when he made it back here he freaking forgot the mixing bowls…. like the main reason he went home. I was annoyed, and thought to myself ‘he probably went home just so that he could smoke, since I don’t have weed here, he must of smoked before getting what we needed and it caused him to forget.’ It was hard for me to forgive actually, when it is because of the weed I honestly had less sympathy, like think ahead then? pack first?? But yes, the cash was likely because he was already on edge, but claiming he was joking was just the biggest lie, lie to himself, and lack of responsibility or desire to figure out why he was behaving this way.

    “that gut wrenching awkwardness“- can you define or explain what I boldfaced (sometime, no rush)

    It is more like nervousness mixed with awkwardness. So imagine something you have been nervous for, for me it was right before a track meet in highschool, I was so nervous my stomach was in knots. So this feeling mixed with awkwardness, where you don’t know what you are going to say, it was unplanned, who will speak first, don’t say the wrong thing and accidentally show weakness… I think I fear seeing his face. Even as I broke up with him, I couldn’t look into his eyes, because it made me want to change my mind and hug him, give him my empathy.

    “no wonder we are all (almost all..?.) hurt people who hurt other people.”

    At first this gave me the fear of, will all relationships be more hurtful than being single? will I never find a healed person? But Then my next thought was I don’t need a healed person I only want someone who is trying to be better, healing. This exists right? I feel like I need the confirmation at this moment haha.

    I am responding to each of your messages in separate boxes.

    Seaturtle

    #426935
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Anita,

    “– imagine choosing your own Aware- Seaturtle’s standards of what a good partner means is in your life vs relative standards, (relative to your father, in this case). A highly vibrating crown chakra will not be confined to one’s childhood/ past standards.”

    I am reading one paragraph at a time and responding, like usual, and find it cool that I am reading this after, above, asking you about “standards.” I like this alot, and is what I want, to have my own standards, and not be confined by my childhood experiences.

     

    “- imagine a carefree childhood where the child does not worry about what her parent is thinking and feeling.”

    Sounds lovely and foreign.

    “His heart chakra’s vibrations are low. Not his fault. Thing is, no point in hitting a rock with a stick trying to get water out of it (not after a long-enough period of time of hitting it and then understanding what happened/ is happening).”

    I went out with my roommate last night, actually we spent the whole day together, went to the library where I sat and replied to your messages yesterday. We then did a little shopping, then went grocery shopping for dinner and she wanted to dye her hair! I actually have cut my other friends hair and when my roommate asked me I did a good job again, then she asked if I would dye it and I am so proud of how it turned out! only semi permanent, but it looks so good and we had so much fun, we made little cocktails then after getting ready went to a fun bar and ordered espresso martinis and planned a future vacation together haha. Anyways I bring this up because I am a bit hungover, and it makes me a little loopy, so I wonder if it is because of that but, all this to say, I don’t quite understand the bolded quote above, could you explain it more? I am also curious as to why his heart chakra vibrations are lower than mine and why it is unchangeable?

     “One lesson: when you spot a possibility of a manipulative technique in-progress, expose it to the possible manipulator. If she/ he expresses any introspection and considers your input, then that’s good. If  he/ she continues with the same manipulative technique but with a twist (like M did in this example, making you feel bad about her feeling bad… over making you feel bad) or changes to another manipulative technique (like F does when he changes a topic, or when he lies), then you know who and what you are dealing with.”

    I am excited to know this! I fear being manipulated again, so I am glad my third eye muscle is strengthening so that I won’t be. I wonder how the manipulator feels, when they are scrambling for their next manipulation tactic.. why they do this rather than just be authentic?

    Seaturtle

    #426936
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I will reply further to what you already posted and what you will post later, Sun morning. But for now:

    I wonder why this is? Can I not develop this safety within myself?“- never underestimate how much we need other people for a feeling of safety. For a social animal, like a human, safety is about being with other people. So, let’s say you feel fine and dandy as a single woman, an image of N by itself (on the freeway, for example) is enough to tap into that innate feeling-safety-with-him need.

    Did it take trial and error with partners before you were able to find one that met your standards?“- I was too messed up, more messed up than you can imagine.. to be able to experience any continuity of thought and feeling that will allow a learning process which includes trial and error.. I just erred continuously.

    More tomorrow, have a good rest of Saturday!

    anita

    #426937
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    in response to your final post,

    “But let’s say that your motivation was to redirect his attention away from your lie: could you accept that you, Seaturtle, were not a perfect specimen back then.. and never will be one? Accept this while continuing to become (a process) a better and better human being?”

    Yes I can accept that. I feel like actually I would be more uncomfortable thinking I was perfect, because if I am then how can I get better? I enjoy being inspired to be better, and for that reason I believe, learned to find joy when I discover something I did wrong, so that I can look inside and discover something knew about myself! Also, it is hard to accept certain things when they are particularly embarrassing, or just really don’t resonate with you… but the cool cycle is that if you keep your mind open to hear your mistakes and correct them along the way, it is much easier than shutting them down and then getting so far from who you are, that you are unfamiliar with your truest self.. my nightmare!

    – Having witnessed M’s manipulative tears aimed at disarming F while not changing her own wrong behaviors, you didn’t and you don’t want to be like her, so you question your own tears.. M took away from you the privilege of simply crying.

    Wow I love this insight. Doubting my own tears… that is very sad. So then when I had those tears, when talking with F about intense things, usually such as money or the “housecleaning” meetings where he would list how I had shown my ungratefulness… those tears, what did they mean?

    “-the other side of the story is that you tried to make N someone who he is not, so to get what you validly need in a relationship, all along thinking that it’d benefit him as well if he was.. someone who he is not. Your error is in doing this for too long, and so, in totality, you have hurt yourself and you didn’t help him, maybe you made him feel worse about himself than he felt before you being in his life.”

    I could see this being true, in many ways. Sad he will blame me for feeling worse about himself now, when I guess it is technically my fault for shining light on parts of him that he did not like.

    “If this is what happened, you have to forgive yourself because you weren’t aware back then.”

    You know what Anita, I have had the sense recently that I need to forgive myself in some ways for things in the relationship, and I have been trying to discover what they are, and this is certainly one! So far I had just come up with forgiving myself for not starting work earlier… despite his words, I think I knew I was pushing it as far as how long it was taking me to find a job that I wanted to be at. I look back and I wonder if I could have sped up the process if I put more energy into it, but I need to forgive myself, knowing I did not have the energy, or I would have done so. Trying to change him/us, took up that energy. So he was double suffering, had someone he loved trying to change him and not having a partner contribute to rent. I wonder, how do I forgive myself?

     “You saw N through their eyes, not through your 3rd eye. So, you tried to make it work.”

    Exactly, I saw him through everyone’s eyes, cause I needed help, I needed more eyes, and by the time mine opened I ended the relationship the next day. That day I remember just seeing a different person infront of me all the sudden, as I put it in an earlier post ‘my rose colored glasses were suddenly removed.’

    “So, in the future, see a man through your 3rd eye and if he is not what you need, let him go.”

    I need to strengthen this third eye before getting involved in other relationships, because right now my sacral and heart are way more developed, and make more decisions than my third eye.

    “you have 3 options: (1) to stay with him and ask no questions (hatchling/ Seaturtle in a cage), (2) stay with him and keep asking questions, and getting infuriated, (3) having mercy on the two of you, wishing him well and existing the relationship.”

    Exactly and I exhausted 1 and 2, and it was very taxing on my well-being.

    “The 3rd option is the empathetic and crown chakra’s fueled answer, both heart and crown chakras vibrating in unison.”

    What is the hearts role in this?

    “It occurred to me a long time ago, by the way, that maybe part of his attraction to you was that your father is financially well off, maybe rich…?”

    Interesting question, because he did like my dad. He took advantage when we were on vacation with him to ask him financial advice. My dad is very intelligent, and he soaked up what my dad taught him like a sponge, an equally enjoyable conversation between them though, because my dad loves to teach, especially to someone who is really listening. I honestly enjoyed it too, I love to watch when two people I introduce get along, it vibrates my heart chakra. And I was glad N was asking him good questions, I wanted N to be successful. Now I am not sure I can say the same though…I never want N to feel like he could say to me “told you so.” But I know that is not my job to teach him a lesson, or wish it upon him, but I do want him to receive his Karma, not just that thought I want him to know why he is getting Karma, but that is just wishful thinking.

    I wrote: “he worked 10pm-5pm the next day! He worked 20 hour shifts back to back, he slept in his truck… I sort of rescued him, I showed him how ridiculous it was , he told me, after he quit that I am the one that got him out. He was in a loop and I showed genuine concern and showed him” and you responded: “you helped to work fewer hours, for one. Good thing.”

    After I read this I thought back to what you said “maybe you made him feel worse about himself than he felt before you being in his life.” Although this may still be true, if he allows him to think about it he could be still working for his dad suffering back home, instead I advised him out of there and to move to AZ with me, where he bought a home (before he met me he was looking to buy in WA) but now he has a home here and started a business with his friend who lives here. Our relationship certainly guided him to better places whether he wants to admit it or not.

     

    Haha I think sarcasm can be fun at times, but it usually does not working over messaging, unless you just expect it from someone. And perhaps time for a new computer? I started copying my messages before hitting send and it has saved me from having to re type responses!

    I hope you have a happy Saturday Anita 🙂

    Seaturtle

    #426943
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    Even as I broke up with him, I couldn’t look into his eyes, because it made me want to change my mind and hug him, give him my empathy“- heart chakra going wild, unsupervised (by the crown chakra).

    Will I never find a healed person? But then, my next thought was I don’t need a healed person I only want someone who is trying to be better, healing. This exists right? I feel like I need the confirmation at this moment haha”- yes, confirmed: you can find a healing man, a person like you, a person like me.

    I like this a lot, and is what I want, to have my own standards, and not be confined by my childhood experiences“- throat chakra giving voice to crown chakra.

    “I went out with my roommate last night, actually we spent the whole day together, went to the library where I sat and replied to your messages yesterday. We then did a little shopping, then went grocery shopping for dinner and she wanted to dye her hair!… it looks so good, and we had so much fun, we made little cocktails then after getting ready went to a fun bar and ordered espresso martinis and planned a future vacation together haha. Anyways I bring this up because I am a bit hungover, and it makes me a little loopy, so I wonder if it is because of that but, all this to say, I don’t quite understand the bolded quote above, could you explain it more? I am also curious as to why his heart chakra vibrations are lower than mine and why it is unchangeable?”-

    – his heart chakra vibrations are lower because during his childhood, his vibrations were dulled more than yours were dulled during your childhood. It would not have been unchangeable that his vibrations are low, if he was motivated to change them.

     “I am excited to know this! I fear being manipulated again, so I am glad my third eye muscle is strengthening so that I won’t be. I wonder how the manipulator feels, when they are scrambling for their next manipulation tactic.. why they do this rather than just be authentic?“-

    – they have TOO MUCH FEAR that their authentic self is unacceptable. No matter how much you love them, they figure that if you knew them, you’d hate them. So, they hide and deceive.

    “I enjoy being inspired to be better, and for that reason I believe, learned to find joy when I discover something I did wrong, so that I can look inside and discover something new about myself!”- I don’t think N feels this way.

    “if you keep your mind open to hear your mistakes and correct them along the way, it is much easier than shutting them down and then getting so far from who you are, that you are unfamiliar with your truest self.. my nightmare!”- Your nightmare; N’s reality

    “Wow I love this insight. Doubting my own tears… that is very sad. So then when I had those tears, when talking with F about intense things, usually such as money or the ‘housecleaning’ meetings where he would list how I had shown my ungratefulness… those tears, what did they mean?“- tears of fear? Of desperation, of misery? Of a girl in a cage wanting out?

    It is technically my fault for shining light on parts of him that he did not like“- not your fault, not a wrongdoing. it’s a loving thing to do. But when he rejects it again and again.. time to stop shining that light on him and move on and away.

    “You know what Anita, I have had the sense recently that I need to forgive myself in some ways for things in the relationship, and I have been trying to discover what they are, and this is certainly one! So far, I had just come up with forgiving myself for not starting work earlier… despite his words, I think I knew I was pushing it as far as how long it was taking me to find a job that I wanted to be at. I look back and I wonder if I could have sped up the process if I put more energy into it, but I need to forgive myself, knowing I did not have the energy, or I would have done so. Trying to change him/us, took up that energy. So, he was double suffering, had someone he loved trying to change him and not having a partner contribute to rent. I wonder, how do I forgive myself?”-

    – (1) if you need to, you can calculate how much rent you objectively think that you owe him and plan to pay him that amount. (2) “he loved”- what does it mean, his brand of love..?

    “Exactly, I saw him through everyone’s eyes, cause I needed help, I needed more eyes, and by the time mine opened I ended the relationship the next day. That day I remember just seeing a different person in front of me all the sudden, as I put it in an earlier post ‘my rose-colored glasses were suddenly removed.’”- SEE with your 3rd eye chakra, the only eye you need.

    “I need to strengthen this third eye before getting involved in other relationships, because right now my sacral and heart are way more developed and make more decisions than my third eye“- I concur.

    What is the heart’s role in this?“- its role is in letting him be just as he is, closed 3rd eye, low vibrational crown chakra and all…  simply because this is what he prefers and what he chooses. And stay away from him, don’t bother him with what he doesn’t want to be bothered with, what he chooses to not be bothered with. Live your life by your choices, allow him to live with his.

    Now he has a home here and started a business with his friend who lives here. Our relationship certainly guided him to better places whether he wants to admit it or not“- how much money would you place on this guidance (maybe you can deduct if from the rent you think you owe him..?)

    I hope you have a happy Saturday Anita“- just had my 2nd red wine glass this evening, listening to a guy singing to no one, as no one showed up for his performance. I thought I might as well answer you, good night precious, wonder-ful sea turtle (7:38 pm here, 8:38 where you are at).

    anita

    #426958
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I am editing in italic the first part of last evening’s post:

    Even as I broke up with him, I couldn’t look into his eyes, because it made me want to change my mind and hug him, give him my empathy“- heart chakra going wild, unsupervised (by the crown chakra).

    Correction: if not supervised and managed well by the crown chakra, it’d mean.. your life going wild, and not in a good way long-term (the return to N). So we have to pay attention to our heart and what it wants at any one time, respect it and ask ourselves: what does my heart want deep inside and what can I do to give it what it truly wants today and every day?

    Ignoring our hearts leads to sickness, and so does being ruled by our hearts’ immediate wants. It’d be like ignoring a young child vs giving him/ her anything and everything he wants when he wants it or as quickly as possible. The crown chakra, when highly vibrating, is a wise, patient, persistent and effective parent to the inner child aka the heart and sacral chakras.

    anita

    #426959
    anita
    Participant

    Another editing: “What is the heart’s role in this?“- the role of the heart chakra in the context of NOT going back to him is to like him/ to have empathy for him as a person out there with whom you are not involved. This is what’s underneath my suggestion to wish him well: to send him positive thoughts and a positive sentiment over a distance, not to deliver these to him directly, or in-person.

    #426963
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    This is a journal entry on another topic that has been on my mind the past 24 hours, and I would love your advice and thoughts.

    (1)I have always loved the idea of having a ‘girl group’ of friends, multiple perspectives and multiple people to be there for you. When I watch of Sex in the City (the movie/show) I want what they have. Even in the tv show Friends, the group of friends, even just the three girls having eachother. Despite having this desire I have found myself, over the years since highschool, found myself avoiding mixing certain friends… I had this friend, G, she was my first real friend, she lived down the street and her parents were often not home so she would spend the summers with me and my family. We went to different schools for a while, but once I joined her public school, instead of helping me make friends, it was more like some competition to show me all the friends she made… From this point on, I made other friends on my own, because I couldn’t rely on her ‘in school.’ I made good friends, all temporarily though in classes, but then I met a girl T, who I really liked and got along with, we would spend lunches together freshman year. T told me one time she felt weird because G had reached out to her to hangout… I thought this was weird too, G didn’t even know T but through me. I didn’t like this but it was ignored because T didn’t desire to respond. G was fun to be with outside of school and without other girls OR boys around. (literally told the boy I liked in middle school that I liked him! and that she did too!) But then she apologized, that was in 8th grade and it wasn’t until sophomore year (10th grade) I was able to go hangout with her again, with walls up.

    (2)Since then G has been in bad relationships where guys cheat on her and she stays, they are mean to her and she cries to me, then I try to tell her to leave and she stays with them. Last year I had to tell G that I could no longer answer her long calls to vent about these men that she would only go back to, in fact days before breaking up with N when you told me that you could no longer hear about his gaslighting, I was reminded of this. Anyways I don’t want this bad relationship to affect how I approach other friends, with walls up.

    (3)Then there is P, we connected sophomore year and have been the best friendship I have had since then. She is always a phone call away, and she was a big reason I chose to move to AZ, where she moved a couple years ago. Although since I have lived here this past year, she has been consumed with this relationship, that from the outside seemed obviously toxic to me, but love is blind. Her eyes were recently opened, she fell out of love but is paying a lease with him until october. In the mean time being around him and draining her in every way. The three options you shared with me yesterday “you have 3 options: (1) to stay with him and ask no questions (hatchling/ Seaturtle in a cage), (2) stay with him and keep asking questions, and getting infuriated, (3) having mercy on the two of you, wishing him well and existing the relationship.” P is confined to option 1, until she can move out. Just yesterday she came over to go on a walk with me, I asked her how she was, and she just burst into tears. Saying she feels stupid for moving in with this man, she knew it was wrong and just ignored her intuition, she said he brings out the worst in her, now they are just roommates who argue.

    (4) The difference between G and P, is that G continues to return to the men. I can tell P knows what she deserves and it is no longer this situation. G, for example, would cry one minute, then the next be like “oh wait I think we can actually make it work.” Whereas P, is very set on it never working, I trust she would not go back. This redeeming quality in P, plus how mentally healthy I have seen her in the past, is why I stick by P, through a hard time right now. However I do find I am protective of my energy around her… I want to be there for her, but not let it bring me down, which I think she is good at not over-staying her welcome, a Quality G did not have. I feel like to have lasting friends you need to be there for them through the hard parts, and you just need to decide which friends you believe are growing and who would keep you stagnant. P has brought me up before, now it is my turn to be there for her.

    (5)I am so beyond thankful for my roommate, R (I have called her M in the past but I don’t want to use the same letter I use for my mom, so I will change hers to R for Roommate). She was the one who told me, before breaking up with N, that she would be there for me, she said “let’s do it, I can be here for you” she brought me ice cream the night of the breakup, leaving her current date early. Since then I have spent alot of time with R, days I would usually have spent with N. When R works I get some needed alone time as well. The other night when we went out, I shared with her my desire to go visit Louisiana, potentially my next home! I love everything that I have read, and I do not love AZ, I have been asking my higher self, where next? for a long time but am patient for the answer. Then a few days ago I sat in silence and felt the desire to look at a map, I want to live by a large body of water, the coast perhaps, as I looked along the coast, ruling out certain states I found myself at New Orleans, a place I have been wanting to visit for a while. I looked up the culture and so far am so intrigued. The night we went out I told her about it, she got excited for me and said she could see me there. She said she would love to go visit with me! save up together and go explore, this morning we talked more about budgeting and planning the trip.

    (6)So here is my dilemma. I have invited P and R to hangout the three of us twice, both times I sort of felt it was overtaken by P. I think it is because in her living situation now, she doesn’t get to express herself, so it comes out in bursts when she is out and it is hard for others to get a word in. Personally I have found my time with R more enjoyable, and feeding to me. But yesterday when P came over, she made a comment, seeing a picture of me and R’s night out, she said “I would have come out with you guys! I have been home just sad.” I didn’t really respond, but I was thinking, ‘I am happy it was just me and R.’ As I spent the evening with P last night, I kept thinking ‘should I mention the New Orleans trip?’ I didn’t, because I wasn’t sure what I would say if she asked to come. I sort of just want to go with just R. But, to come full circle to the beginning of this post, I have always wanted a ‘girl group,’ yet here I am denying it? Intuition or fear?! here we are again. Is it ever fear? I have been this way for so long, ever since keeping G away from T, freshman year of highschool (who I mention at the beginning of this post). I wonder if I am pushing away my opportunities for a girl group, or if being with one person at a time is best for me.

    (7) The interesting thing is, R came home this morning, right between paragraphs 4-5 (i will number them now so it is clearer). I asked her about her night at a birthday party last night, then we got to talking about our New Orleans trip, when it would be the best time and how long we would need to save. Then she brought up “and you know I was thinking about if we should invite other girls, but I think it should just be us since we have similar goals going and mixing up what everyone wants to do might take away from our both wanting to just explore.” I found this so interesting because I was just here journaling about that question and she brought it up without me even saying anything about that. The same things were on her mind as mine.

    Anyways, I appreciate this space to journal and if you do have some insights as to my friendship patterns, or anything, I’d love to hear.

    Happy Sunday! (smiling sunshine emoji)

    Seaturtle

    #426964
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    “yes, confirmed: you can find a healing man, a person like you, a person like me.”

    Thank you 🙂

    “– his heart chakra vibrations are lower because during his childhood, his vibrations were dulled more than yours were dulled during your childhood.”

    What I take from this is, I wonder where my vibrations were dulled, to point me to undoing this. Clearly my throat chakra, and third eye, the most.

    “– they have TOO MUCH FEAR that their authentic self is unacceptable. No matter how much you love them, they figure that if you knew them, you’d hate them. So, they hide and deceive.”

    Again this has N written all of it, and he will use me leaving as proof that I didn’t accept his authentic self, when really he hadn’t even showed that to me.

    I wrote: “I enjoy being inspired to be better, and for that reason I believe, learned to find joy when I discover something I did wrong, so that I can look inside and discover something new about myself!” and you responded “I don’t think N feels this way.”

    I don’t think he does either, which makes this one of my new standards in a partner.

    I wrote: “It is technically my fault for shining light on parts of him that he did not like“ and you replied “- not your fault, not a wrongdoing. it’s a loving thing to do. But when he rejects it again and again.. time to stop shining that light on him and move on and away.”

    Rejecting the gift of light… a gift I want to be given.

    “– (1) if you need to, you can calculate how much rent you objectively think that you owe him and plan to pay him that amount. (2) “he loved”- what does it mean, his brand of love..?”

    1-I wonder this, if it would solve anything.

    2-He may not of wanted light shed on him on a conscious level, but some level of him chose someone who’s nature is to do this, bring light. “they have TOO MUCH FEAR that their authentic self is unacceptable. No matter how much you love them, they figure that if you knew them, you’d hate them. So, they hide and deceive.” If he thought he was so hateable, so unlovable, then why did he allow himself to choose someone with a huge heart. If he truly hated himself and didn’t feel deserving of love he would choose someone who is like him, teflon, not so connected to their heart chakra, but he allowed himself to be with someone who had a big capacity to love, whether he consciously knew this or not. Someone to love him so hard, is hat is best for him, and he chose someone who had the potential to help him if he was willing, so in some way he made a good decision for himself to chose to spend so much time with me. Unlike most of his self destructive behaviors and substances, I was one of his good decisions, that he was not fully able to receive/see because consciously he could not, but something in him gravitated to me. I feel like he knew on some level, that I could help him, but consciously he did not want it, pushing me away was his self destructiveness. But the part inside of him that knew I could be the perfect person to show be loved by, that part of him, I think loved me. Yes there was much more he could have done to show his love, but there were some things he did for me. He cared for me in his own ways, for example my car. He always check on it before I drove off, checking the oil, steering fluid, coolant (my car was overheating). Not only did he do these things for me but he wanted me to know how to do it myself incase he wasn’t around, he reminded me to do these things and made sure I understood the importance. He cared for me, this I believe was him loving me, in the small doses he was able to. He once paid for me to go to my improv class, I loved going and came home brighter, and he saw that, I was disapointed one week cause I couldn’t afford it and he sent me the money right away, pushing me to do something that brought me strength, why would he want me to have strength if he didn’t love me? A spider does not want the fly to have any strength to leave, or knowledge (like the car) to leave or live without him. When I was sad, he put his head on my shoulder, not knowing what to say, but when I felt panicked I would sit in the closet with the lights off and he would come in, shut the door, and sit with me. Ugh this is making me miss him a little, darn ha. He loved me, I believe.

    But, to remind myself now, in this moment I need to open my third eye to other aspects of the relationship to stop missing him right now. He wasn’t willing to take responsibility for his lies, even after giving him so many opportunities. He thought my way of regaining energy, was a waste of time. He did not want to be introspective, he rejected my gift of light on hidden places and couldn’t find joy in discovering why he did certain things, instead just deflected “I just don’t know how I come across a lot of the time.” This is why the relationship was so hard to leave, if I focused on the good it wasn’t hard to want to go back to his home. he didn’t want to grow with me. Instead he wanted to smoke. He didn’t respect my process of growth, and therefore treated me in a nonloving way when he lacked energy, such as the cash incident. I gave him so many opportunities to take SOME responsibility, any would have been enough for me to see growth in his eyes. His survival mode choices, such as being the most connected when going through hard things, rather than being able to sit and talk in the quiet.

    Feeling a bit ick right now, just letting those memories, of how he was there for me, surface in my mind is painful. They feed into what if he could have changed, taken better care of himself. Ugh this back and forth is exhausting and I am calling on my third eye right now to remain open and strong today.

     

    “- how much money would you place on this guidance (maybe you can deduct if from the rent you think you owe him..?)”

    Interesting idea.

    ” just had my 2nd red wine glass this evening, listening to a guy singing to no one, as no one showed up for his performance.”

    What a cool experience! I am glad he had you. This sounds like a night I would love to be apart of.

    Seaturtle

    #426965
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    My third I potentially, I just asked myself, would I have been in the closet, anxious, if I had an authentic and open third eye chakra, in the first place?

    I remember mentioning before here, that at times I felt like N would cause me pain, then also console me for it… confusing.

    But there were times I felt genuinely happy with him, I think about our day trip in Las Vegas the day after new years last year, he grabbed me and kissed me in the middle of a huge beautiful walkway, i was so happy in that moment, I have it on video actually and ran across it the other day and watched it. Perhaps a bad decision, but it did happen why hide from it.

    what does my heart want deep inside and what can I do to give it what it truly wants today and every day?”

    That is my current question, what does my heart truly want. I do know that R, is fulfilling some of my hearts needs right now which is so nice to have.

    to send him positive thoughts and a positive sentiment over a distance, not to deliver these to him directly, or in-person.”

    I wonder how this will bring me some peace.

    Seaturtle

    #426968
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I am home for the day, being that it is more below freezing that I can handle (my toes were frozen for an hour after being outside for 10 minutes or so). I will be using the treadmill for .75 miles, then take a break, read and reply to you, then back to the treadmill, etc. Yesterday (or the day before), I heard the News Hour and the newscaster said, paraphrased: the only state (in the U.S.) that doesn’t (or is not expected to) have freezing temperatures is and I blurted out: Arizona, and was thinking of you. And the newscaster said.. Arizona.  Back to you later.

    anita

    #426969
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I read #1- #7 attentively. My comments below are typed after reading everything:

    “I have always loved the idea of having a ‘girl group’ of friends, multiple perspectives and multiple people to be there for you. When I watch of Sex in the City (the movie/show) I want what they have. Even in the tv show Friends“- these are Hollywood shows, not real-life… as you know (but do you know-know…?)

    I wonder if I am pushing away my opportunities for a girl group, or if being with one person at a time is best for me“- one person at a time is best for you.. and for R, as she told you about 4 hours ago: “I was thinking about if we should invite other girls, but I think it should just be us since we have similar goals going and mixing up what everyone wants to do might take away from our both wanting to just explore”-

    – a group of 3 or more can work out if there is a unifying theme to the group such as a Christian bible-study group, or the region’s Republic Party group.. or a Codependent Anonymous Support group where there are sets of rules and guidelines as to who speaks and for how long (using a timer), and about what. Or in the Show Friends Group where the sets of rules set by the screen writer and director as to who speaks, when and about what (the exact words).. are the strictest of all (no improvisations in the final product). But otherwise.. not likely to happen.

    Your TV shows inspired dream of a group of friends who make the group stronger than the sum of its individual members is not likely, just as you experienced, because people are too disturbed, scattered and often desperate.

    R reads like a good enough friend and a person in the best state of mind compared to G and T. T reads like a good friend with.. special needs at this time as she is struggling with a very difficult living situation (no way to have someone else take on her part of the lease, as a sub-tenant or the like?), and G reads like a friend to have in great moderation.. sometimes, in certain circumstances and in an operate-at-your-own-risk basis (lol)

    anita

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