Home→Forums→Relationships→Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships
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Helcat.
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June 9, 2024 at 2:47 pm #433623
anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I miss our chakras talks, our meetings of crown chakras.
“I feel like CBT will help me, but I am struggling to find a therapist. I am afraid someone will lead me astray and, in my vulnerability, I will be so impressionable“- my 2011-13 therapist was a CBT therapist who incorporated Mindfulness into his practice. I found him by googling CBT (in my location at the time). He offered a free first visit, went way beyond the standard 50 min per session (in the first and following sessions), so, he was the one for me.
“I really appreciate this (heart emoji)“- you are welcome, and thank you, heart emoji back at you!
“I have found a lot of healing energy inside… Brain and Body yoga“- good thing!
“May the chapter of “Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships” come to an end.”
“I have hit a major checkpoint within the last week. I have heard and seen N in the last week, he gave my things back, although much thrown away… Last night I deleted our photo album, and then I had a great sleep and woke up better than I went to sleep… Today I am throwing away memorabilia from our relationship… I feel a sense of closure, I finally know I never have to see him again“- what a relief it is to read this! It is as if I am you, feeling a great relief to have this unnecessary stress and distress over with, if it is.
“What do you mean by ‘2nd year of life.’“- age 1- 2 years.
“I wonder how much I should expect people near me often, to see me?“- in my experience of recent: if someone outside of me sees me, really sees me as a good, honest person, a likeable person, just one person, I no longer crave to be seen; I was already seen.
anita
June 9, 2024 at 2:51 pm #433624anitaParticipant* I forgot to edit out the sentence “May the chapter of “Telling the difference… come to an end.” from my reply.
June 10, 2024 at 11:16 am #433664anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I looked up Body and Brain Yoga, it reads: “a unique blend of Yoga, Tai Chi, Breathwork and Meditation exercises”- reads like a winning combination. I did lots of yoga and tai chi classes back in the day. I miss the Tai Chi Sifu. He was indeed very skillful, physically and mentally.
“you are not directly in my shoes“- true.
“Currently, and recently I have been made aware of these shadows, aka false selves, and they are overwhelming when stacked together… I lost that little girl for a while because, as you know, I had to quiet her to stay in that relationship“- I will tell you what this means to me, about me/ my life, being directly in my shoes: the little girl that I was, she was trusting and loving and beautiful. What I just typed, I typed comfortably, spontaneously, with no self-doubt, no guilt attached, no shame. It never happened until most recently (I was sure- almost- all along, that I was a bad girl= bad person). But not this morning as I am typing this for you to read.
This was/ is my true self: trusting, loving and beautiful.
My false selves: (1) the angry self, angry at all the people my mother was angry with (everyone, sooner or later), (2) the suspicious, distrusting self, suspicious and distrusting of.. everyone, sooner or later, (3) the unintelligent, inattentive self = a reaction-self: a reaction to significant/ severe abuse, (4) the helpless, hopeless self, again: a reaction to abuse, (5) the ugly self, the self that wronged others… (6) the inferior self, inferior to my peers/ people, (7) the superior self, the other side of the same (# 6) coin.
I am now significantly free-er of these false selves, never before free-er than I am now. Thank you for being part of this self-freeing process.
anita
June 10, 2024 at 3:07 pm #433669
HelcatParticipantHi Seaturtle
That’s very kind of you to say. It’s lovely to see you around again. I really enjoy speaking with you. ❤️
You know what, they said that to be cruel. To try to stifle your light. F that! Pardon my French. 😂
There are people in life who just become part of the cycle of generational trauma and there are people who choose to heal, grow past it and find their own way. I can tell that you are the latter. I think that is really special. My therapist said is actually a rare quality.
I also find it helpful to reflect on nice things that I’m told by people.
I think that sometimes the people we care about have the potential to cause the most pain. There is an implicit level of trust and respect that elevates their opinions. And people with empathy listen and reflect, wondering if that person was right when we are told something cruel. Particularly so, when there is underlying trauma that the message aligns with.
I also feel like it’s much easier to be hurt by someone we trust and care about sometimes. There is an expectation of care. Whereas with a stranger there is no expectation, no attachment. When a relationship is generally good and a person tries we can forgive and move on. But when a relationship isn’t so healthy that’s when there can be difficulties with self esteem.
It can also be difficult to maintain relationships with people who have caused a lot of trauma even when the relationship improves, especially if they make the odd comment that brings up old trauma. I used to wonder why my therapist recommended that I didn’t see my adopted mother. Now, I understand. It is possible to maintain those relationships don’t get me wrong. But a lot of space is needed and maintaining contact is a sacrifice emotionally.
Sometimes people are right in their feedback, sometimes people are wrong. My husband says a broken watch can be right twice a day, but you don’t tell the time by it. I think it’s important to use your judgment to see if you think something is right or not.
Please forgive my rambling. I think my mind is shutting down for the night!
Congratulations on your new milestone! Getting rid of photos and things that remind you of the relationship and feeling better. I’m glad that it feels right for you! If thoughts of the relationship arise again it is not a bad thing. It is just a thing thing. These things come and go. It’s not pleasant to feel pain, but sometimes when we resist something we give it a lot of importance in our mind. The more painful, the more “important”, the more likely thoughts are to reoccur. I don’t know if you felt like you were thinking about the relationship when you didn’t want to?
I do love finding communities of kind people. I couldn’t agree more! I also find that people who walk their dogs are especially kind. And also elderly people are very cut and dry in who they are. You quickly find out if they fall into the extremely kind category or the cranky one. I’m glad that you have a safe space. That is so important and so healing. ❤️
While I was reflecting on the specialness of Seaturtle it made me realise that the name is so apt!
Always eager to hear your thoughts!
Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏
June 11, 2024 at 2:17 pm #433723
seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“I miss our chakras talks, our meetings of crown chakras.”
I miss these too! I just finished re-listening to the book “Living from a place of Surrender,” it helps me to come back to a witness-conscious mind rather than be consumed by thoughts –> feelings. I always hear new things when I listen to it. Yesterday I heard, when you feel alone, the solution is not another person. You feel this way because your heart chakra is blocked and cannot receive the proper amount of energy (chi) to feel whole. I feel like I am on a constant journey, doing my best, to relax and release these blockages. The book said these blockages are uncomfortable to let go, because they were stored with pain and discomfort.
Something N said to me, that was very uncomfortable for me to hear, was that he had seen me strong earlier in our relationship and never saw her again. My discomfort makes me feel like there is a false belief blocking one of my chakras, a false self that is weak/tired. He speaks in extremes and only of surface level events (as opposed to deeper reasons why, or how). For this reason I don’t take what he says at face value, but he revealed to me a tip of an iceberg and it allowed me to go deeper. The time he spoke of I was very strong (just like my true self is). I was not afraid, I had a deep sense of comfort as we went through something very scary, but from deep within me a courage surfaced that protected us both. He even said I was stronger than him through that trial. I began to wonder where that version of me went. I want to be her always. At the time I remember having a sense of trust that things would work out in a way that we could handle. I knew we were both doing the best we possibly could. I felt like N relied on my blind faith and allowed it to make him hopeful as well. His belief in me, fueled me even more. I want a partner who believes in me always, not just when he truly has nowhere else to turn. It made me realize I wasn’t relied on in our relationship. I was not given vulnerability and he did not have confidence in my faith on a day to day. By faith I mean my ability to make good decisions from a centered place and my confidence that my best was enough and the right things would find there way to me in the right time. There were many big decisions like buying a house a getting a roommate (in Seattle before we even moved here) that he did not ask for my advice on. He welcomed work partners, people I told him my intuition didn’t like.. he didn’t take my gut seriously. Both his roommates were untrustworthy people and he didn’t trust my initial analysis.
Another thing I learned from our recent talk was that he just doesn’t truly respect women. He literally said that women have it easier in life, are handed things that men aren’t. Kept telling me all I wanted was some man with money, “only girls can just do nothing and go travel and have stuff.” “You never brought any logic to our relationship.” In the beginning of our relationship he mentioned not liking his mom. I didn’t know this was a red flag at the time but now I do, it’s not just his mom he doesn’t like. It is as if he wanted me masculine like him. When I was so consumed with wonder about if he even saw me, asking him what made me special. My fears were right, he did not like what made me, me.
My true self is intuitive, sensitive, fearless and feminine. I don’t mean feminine as the gender, but as the essence of me soul. I am not logos I am pathos. I am not power/control oriented, I am a learner and a teacher. I am not type A, I don’t enjoy competitive energy, I prefer team building. I feel like both my father and N, showed me a reflection of myself that was my weakest self. They show me my false selves.. I never want to be what they see. If I stare at their reflection of me for too long, it is as if I start to identify with the false self in front of me, becoming tired, weak, and unwise.
“This was/ is my true self: trusting, loving and beautiful.”
I agree you are certainly these things!
” My false selves: (1) the angry self, angry at all the people my mother was angry with (everyone, sooner or later), (2) the suspicious, distrusting self, suspicious and distrusting of.. everyone, sooner or later, (3) the unintelligent, inattentive self = a reaction-self: a reaction to significant/ severe abuse, (4) the helpless, hopeless self, again: a reaction to abuse, (5) the ugly self, the self that wronged others… (6) the inferior self, inferior to my peers/ people, (7) the superior self, the other side of the same (# 6) coin. ”
I feel like this is a very powerful paragraph that I am sure took a lot of strength to think about and write. I identify with parts of them as well.
” Thank you for being part of this self-freeing process.”
And may this process keep happening for us both!
Seaturtle
June 11, 2024 at 5:18 pm #433732anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I’ll reply today in a different way, different from quoting and commenting. First, thank you for your support and kindness in response to what I shared with you recently!
The title of the book by itself “Living from a place of Surrender” is powerful. I see it as surrendering to what I cannot change, which first takes SEEING that which I don’t like (and cannot change). Connecting this to N, maybe you can add Surrender to the list of the stages of a breakup that you wrote about in your journal entry (May 13).
Seeing him clearly and then surrendering to the truth of what you see can free you from going back to fighting within-you, trying to.. change him still, even after the breakup (in your thoughts and dreams, perhaps)
And seeing him clearly is seeing that he didn’t see you. He only saw a bit of something here, a bit of something there. It is amazing how blind a person can be to another in a supposed intimate relationship. It’s like being Anonymous for the person you love. He told you that he loved you, but he can’t tell you who.. you are.
There is a book titled People of the Lie: The hope for Healing Human Evil. I imagine you, Seaturtle, authoring a book one day, with a title like People who don’t See the Ones they claim to Love: The Hope for healing Human Blindness. Something like that.
anita
June 12, 2024 at 10:21 am #433767anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle:
I want to supplement the above post, because it is not balanced. It is my current understanding that the relationship with N failed because of this combination: (1) he did not see you enough, partly because he is stoned much of the time, and (2) your craving to be seen has been intense, and when you felt unseen, you overreacted, emotionally and often, behaviorally as well (the overreaction started at the very beginning of the relationship with N, on the 3rd date; it’s not a reaction to who N is, it’s something you brought with you into the relationship).
A few examples in your own words, starting in your first, July 29, 2023, post: “Our third date, he accidently stood me up after an all-nighter and I was absolutely devastated, and told him it was over“.
“My flirtation is lost on him and that is sooooooo hard for me“.
“He is silent and I don’t catch him staring at me or complimenting me… N doesn’t really laugh at my jokes… And in those moments I feel so so lonely“.
“I want to explode and just be like: “DO YOU SEE ME“?
“On fourth of July I was upset with him, honestly, I cannot remember what he did, but I remember feeling like he didn’t care about my feelings and was putting other things ahead of me… I cried and wanted to just run away“.
“He sometimes doesn’t text me and just lets me wait, which feels quite tormenting“.
End of examples.
I don’t want to analyze the above here. I think that if you attend psychotherapy with a therapist you can trust, it’d be the place to bring the above up with the therapist.
I hope you are well, Seaturtle, thinking about you fondly!
anita
June 12, 2024 at 10:37 am #433768seaturtleParticipantDear Helcat,
“There are people in life who just become part of the cycle of generational trauma and there are people who choose to heal, grow past it and find their own way”
I know exactly what you are saying. I definitely had an opportunity to stay asleep but made the decision I would rather see things as they are. I realize that this has pros and cons, a pro is wisdom but a con is taking on the generational trauma for your whole lineage. I want to surround myself with these “rare” types of souls, as like a support group. Some days are certainly harder than others.
“And people with empathy listen and reflect, wondering if that person was right when we are told something cruel. Particularly so, when there is underlying trauma that the message aligns with.”
This sentences touches me. There is still a lot of underlying trauma I have, that does interact with my empathy and creates some self doubt.
“Whereas with a stranger there is no expectation, no attachment”
I have been interested in this concept of “detachment” lately. It’s a new concept to me, from google:
- Emotional detachment: Letting go of emotional dependency on others without becoming cold or indifferent. It can involve finding a balance where you can care for someone without losing yourself. Signs of emotional detachment include avoiding people or situations, difficulty empathizing, and feeling disconnected. While it can be a positive coping mechanism, it can become problematic if it affects your ability to form healthy relationships.
The first two sentences seem positive, but the rest seems negative. I think this is a place I have been teetering in. I have been called “cold” by the people that I do in fact intend to distance myself from. Like F, my friend P and N. N is gone, but the other two are very much in my life. It is difficult when F or P do, like you said, “make the odd comment that brings up old trauma… a lot of space is needed and maintaining contact is a sacrifice emotionally”
“I think it’s important to use your judgment to see if you think something is right or not.”
I want my own judgement to be stronger.
I love the rambles! haha.
“.. when we resist something we give it a lot of importance in our mind. The more painful, the more “important”,…I don’t know if you felt like you were thinking about the relationship when you didn’t want to?”
I agree, the more uncomfortable, the bigger of a samskara it is. The bigger blockage it is, the more it is preventing us from feeling the full flow of chi and shakti energy.
“I also find that people who walk their dogs are especially kind”
hahaha, I don’t come across those people in my day to day but I don’t doubt it. And yes, I love when you meet the type of older person that is still laughing and STILL open minded.
“While I was reflecting on the specialness of Seaturtle it made me realise that the name is so apt!”
I wonder, would you share with me why you see it as apt? 🙂
Seaturtle
June 12, 2024 at 10:45 am #433772seaturtleParticipantHelcat,
I forgot to respond to your question “I don’t know if you felt like you were thinking about the relationship when you didn’t want to?”
The answer is yes. I have also felt myself talking about it here and with others when I haven’t truly wanted to. But I recently heard something from a book that stuck with me, the author said he asks himself ‘would you rather know what your mind has to say or have the opportunity to experience an absence of the personal mind.’ From it I created a sort of mantra I have been repeating to myself when thoughts of the relationships come or an urge to speak it comes, I say in my mind ‘I would rather experience a quiet mind than go down all these mind trails and visions of “what if this, what if that.” ‘ In the book the author pointed out that what our personal mind is yapping about is statistically insignificant because it is based on so many “what ifs.”
Seaturtle
June 12, 2024 at 11:10 am #433773seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“…surrendering to what I cannot change, which first takes SEEING that which I don’t like (and cannot change). Connecting this to N, maybe you can add Surrender to the list of the stages of a breakup that you wrote about in your journal entry (May 13).”
I agree, surrendering takes seeing what you don’t like, which is the sacrifice to seeing things as they actually are. I have certainly been attempting to surrender to the stages of grieving a breakup. Surrender without letting it take me over. I feel like it has taken me over a couple times.
“Seeing him clearly and then surrendering to the truth of what you see…seeing him clearly is seeing that he didn’t see you…He told you that he loved you, but he can’t tell you who.. you are.”
You are so wise with your words. I think what Helcat said describes what has been holding me back from fully surrendering to this truth: “And people with empathy listen and reflect, wondering if that person was right when we are told something cruel. Particularly so, when there is underlying trauma that the message aligns with.” There is part of me that thinks if I surrender that he couldn’t see me completely, then I am ignorant to the thought that I have problem I need to fix.. I give attention to cruel things he said, especially things that underlying trauma aligns with. Him calling me selfish, cold and that I made him feel used. Those are things my father also told me. I don’t want to be those things, do you think those could be false selves? Because if they are, then he saw them.. What do you think about the concept of the people we meet in life are mirrors into ourselves? I don’t like my reflection looking at him, does that make it wrong?
“Seaturtle, authoring a book one day, with a title like People who don’t See the Ones they claim to Love: The Hope for healing Human Blindness. Something like that.”
I love this. I hope I exert great things into this universe that can reach and help others.
“(1) he did not see you enough, partly because he is stoned much of the time, and (2) your craving to be seen has been intense, and when you felt unseen, you overreacted, emotionally and often, behaviorally as well (the overreaction started at the very beginning of the relationship with N, on the 3rd date; it’s not a reaction to who N is, it’s something you brought with you into the relationship).”
Yes I believe this is all true and I agree is something for me to further process with therapy. I feel close to finding a therapist. In fact this morning I had a serendipitous moment where I met someone, hopefully a new friend. I was staring into the sun with my eyes closed, outside a cafe, cause I had just read that that can improve your nights sleep. When I opened my eyes he was smiling at me and I explained what I was doing. We ended up in this very high conscious level conversation. He brought up how helpful his therapist has been and I mentioned my search for one. He ended up telling me she helps him process blockages and recommended her to me! Maybe it is right, maybe not, but I do think I am approaching a therapist. 🙂
Seaturtle
June 12, 2024 at 2:44 pm #433775anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle
This is the first time EVER that I am typing a post using my phone, I don’t know how to copy and paste. Or how to find an exclamation mark, etc. Nonetheless, this is history in the making, znd it is done on your thread.
About false selves mirrored by N, specifically you being cold, his word, as in Cold False Self Seaturtle, and being selfish, his word, as in Selfish False Self Seaturtle… Let me ask you first: did you behave coldly and selfishly with him- Sometimes? Often? Rarely? Never?
anita
June 12, 2024 at 2:48 pm #433776anitaParticipant😄
June 12, 2024 at 2:54 pm #433777anitaParticipantDear Seaturtle: The above is my first EVER tiny buddha emoji
Thrilled true self anita
June 12, 2024 at 4:33 pm #433781HelcatParticipantHi Seaturtle
I think it is apt because sea turtles are peaceful, gentle souls, they live to a long age which represents wisdom. They are adventurous and free spirited. You share all of these qualities. 😊
Congratulations on being close to finding a therapist! That is a big step.
It sounds like a good book. That’s a really great mantra! I’m glad that it is helping you manage your thoughts. Well done! 👏
You are right, it is definitely being the first one in the family to try and change things and find a better way. People can be so resistant to change. That would be a wonderful support group.
My husband likes to say. A broken watch is right twice a day, but you don’t tell time by it. Fragments of truth can be found when someone is unhealthy. But it doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person.
I think the secret is that no one is perfect. We all make mistakes, but that doesn’t mean we have to define ourselves by it or that it makes us any less special. All we can do is our best to learn and grow out of our mistakes and offer ourselves forgiveness.
I’m glad you like my rambling!
You might not feel it and see it as much yet. But since you first message you’ve grown a lot. You’re still the same awesome person, but you are trusting your intuition more and finding your voice. It’s lovely to see. Long may it continue!
Ah well Buddhism has a great deal to say about attachment. I would recommend looking into that side of it as well. I’m sure you’ll have lots of fun.
I remember a story about a monk that raised a baby goat and they had to give it up. An exercise in attachment.
It is honestly very hard to maintain a warm demeanour in difficult situations especially with people that aren’t necessarily trusted. Very hard indeed. I actually have similar difficulties. For me, it’s the feeling of vulnerability that I don’t like. I feel very soft and squishy during disagreements, easily hurt. I used to think that the only way to protect myself was to emotionally distance myself from the situation.
With people I trust, I am trying to be less distant when there are disagreements. Practicing validating their emotions and acknowledging positive things when giving feedback.
I read something that basically said that if you approach a relationship with negativity it will not heal. Whereas if you approach a relationship with positivity, the person will be inspired by your character and respond in kind. Not entirely true. But that is what ancient Chinese philosophy is like. 😂
Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏
June 12, 2024 at 4:38 pm #433782HelcatParticipantHi Anita
Congratulation on your first message sent from your phone and your first emoji! Great work figuring it all out. 😊
Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏
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Though I run this site, it is not mine. It's ours. It's not about me. It's about us. Your stories and your wisdom are just as meaningful as mine. 