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Hi Everyone
Thank you Anita! You are not alone. It was never your fault either. Even if you might not feel it all of the time, you are strong, you have overcome so much. I believe in you.
The way I feel about being a parent is that it is a blessing, an honour and a privilege. It comes with so much responsibility because you are responsible for shaping and guiding a little person.
Things would have been very different for both of us if our parents had felt this way.
I feel like over responsibility has been a theme in my life from childhood. Looking after everyone from a young age. Not having anyone else to rely on. This creates a feeling of being overly responsible and encouraged self-blame. Such a little person trying to make sense of the world alone. Trying to protect others as well as myself.
The only consistent source of comfort in my life was my dog as a child. That and books. We moved house so often, every year, sometimes more.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Peter! I think it was very insightful! I’m sorry to hear that you always remember being afraid. That is not an easy way to grow up or live.
My understanding of these things is that our memories and pattern recognition play a role. We live between the past and the future. Always looking back and looking forward. I read that the emotions can spring from memories of the past. They are also stored in the unconscious mind. Seeds of our painful experiences sprouting. I read that angry people gravitate towards anger. Afraid people gravitate towards fear.
Dear Alessa:
Thank you for your kind and supportive words—they truly mean a lot to me. It’s comforting to hear that I’m not alone, and your belief in me is deeply appreciated.
I resonate with your view on being a parent as a blessing and a privilege. The idea that parenting comes with the responsibility to shape and guide a little person is so profound. Like you said, things would have been very different for both of us if our parents had shared that same perspective.
Your reflection on over-responsibility from childhood struck a chord. Carrying so much at such a young age—looking after others, self-blame, and trying to protect everyone while also making sense of the world—it’s such a heavy burden to bear. It’s inspiring how you’ve come to understand and articulate those experiences.
I love the way you described the comfort you found in your dog and books growing up. Even amidst the instability of frequent moves, it’s heartening to know you had those sources of solace.
Your thoughts on how memories shape emotions are thought-provoking. The image of ‘seeds of painful experiences sprouting’ illustrates how the past can unconsciously affect us. Recognizing these patterns is such an important step toward breaking free from them.
Thank you for your thoughtful reflections, Alessa. I truly appreciate you sharing them and your encouragement. Take care of yourself—you deserve all the kindness and peace in the world.
anita
More, Peter:
Krishnamurti, as you know, believed that much of our thinking is shaped by external influences—traditions, education, religion, and societal norms. He argued that this conditioning limits true freedom and creativity, as we often unconsciously adopt the thoughts of others rather than thinking independently. For Krishnamurti, true freedom comes from awareness—being fully present and questioning the origins of one’s thoughts. He believed that this awareness could dissolve the influence of conditioning and lead to a state of clarity and original thinking.
What I am getting at today is that if you find yourself ruminating, it has to be the conditioned kind of thinking (other people’s thoughts) that’s taking place. This is turning me off to rumination. I lived too long to continue to think Other People’s Thoughts (OPT)
anita
Hi Everyone
I agree Anita I think this was what Allan Watts was getting at when he said “We seldom realize that our most private thoughts and emotions are not actually our own. For we think in terms of language’s and images which we did not invent, but which were given to us by our society (others)“.
Unfortunately this form of communication and questing involves rumination so in that way is problematic. It has help me become more conscious of the impact and connection between verbalization, rumination and emotion.
Other thoughts that arose…
Just as the word tree is not a tree, fear, anger, as all such emotion when felt are not a word.
Begging the question is Love a emotion?Anita wrote: “Krishnamurti: ‘To live without time is really to have this sense of great love, because love is not of time, love is not something that was or will be; to explore this and live with it is the real question.’”- And yet, people need our love right here and now.
I think that’s the point Krishnamurti is making. As we explored in other threads the ‘to live without time’ would be to experience the timeless Eternal Now in which Love is the defining attribute and unconditional. This Love is not a word or measurement and has no opposite, it is, and we are that. To explore this relationship between temporal and Eternal Love from which all arise and return is then very much the real question. Which is kind of what we have been exploring. Love as such we would love here and now. (work in progress)
I can hear Krishnamurti response to the call “that people need our love now,” – Yes Love! What’s stopping you? The man was very blunt.
(The next question the questioner usually asked was how. To which Krishnamurti would point out that in asking how you have defeated yourself as this is a doing not a how’ing. The how also implying one is looking to follow and following you never are. “In oneself lies the whole world and if you know how to look and learn, the door is there, and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either the key or the door to open, except yourself.” – the Spinx spoke only once and said, the desert is a grain of sand and grain of sand the desert. Now let us return to silence.)For Krishnamurti love is not something to be grasped or defined, but a state of being that emerges when we cease to cling to what is not love. Love as negation, a journey of self-discovery through the process of negation, where we examine and discard what is not love (attachment, fear, competition, violence…) in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of what love truly is. A topic for another time?
That said living in time as we do, as I do, even having glimpses of the timeless Eternal, to be loved here and now, and hear and experience the words sincerely… I understand.
Now I hear a Buddha say be aware you are choosing, that this is desire and attachment… suffering.Alessa wrote: “We live between the past and the future. Always looking back and looking forward. I read that the emotions can spring from memories of the past. They are also stored in the unconscious mind.”
One of the reasons I like the notion of living without time. Memory being an artifact of time/past (future is a projected past memory) and the act of recalling a act of verbalization recreating the experience and with that the associated emotions.
Tangent: Something that struck me about most Creation stories is the use of language to create. In Genesis G_d creates by speaking. In the beginning was the word… ‘Let there be…’ a Creating from nothing to something that wasn’t. Adam (Humanity) made in the image of G_d is then given the task to name. Naming a type of small c creation that can only reveal what was already their (The blank canvas from which all things arise and return… a kind of chipping away at the marble to reveal the David within.) Naming often mistaken for big C Creating. (Lead us not into temptation of mistaking the map for the territory)
The thought is that because we create, construct or constructs, through language if we are to free ourselves from the suffering that comes from verbalization, we must address the issue of language to which we have the tools of meditation, contemplation… where for a moment…
I mentioned that I can’t recall a time when I wasn’t afraid. Having done the work, I can trace its origins and how this sense of fear/anxiety become embedded. Maybe in my DNA. It is a something that is. Perhaps if I enter a hermitage or some sort it might be possible…
Now in the second half of life enough time has past where I can observe past stories and notice when I’m verbalizing them which is really me trying to fix them. That however doesn’t mean I’m free of what has become a ‘embedded’ sense, at least not yet.
I sit quietly and feel without labeling I notice the place in the body, It sits between the heart and throat. I do not have to verbalize it to know that it is.
The reality is that I live in time most of the time. Perhaps there are those that can transcend time, for me I’ve had glimpses. I am as I am. I am done trying to fix myself, more verbalization’s of memory, the past in the present that never is….
Turning me off rumination
Until the next time…
I am after all who I am.
Dear Peter:
Thank you for your thoughtful and engaging reply. I look forward to continuing this exploration with you Thurs morning
anita
Hi Everyone
Thank you for your kindness and support Anita. You are a treasure!
Thank you for the excellent quotes, as well as sharing your insights Peter!
I noticed that a baby’s emotions are easier to deal with than language combined with emotion.
I believe that love is an emotion, as well as an experience. But compassion is a state of mind.
I have been reflecting on anger and I had an interesting experience last night.
I had angry thoughts directed at myself and others. And I thought wow, these thoughts are probably the most intense thing I currently have to experience in my life. Why am I so focused on other things? I stayed calm and thought of it like an angry teenager. A child should not be rejected when they are angry.
I do feel like all people deserve to be treat with the same compassion.
I am reminded of Chris’s insight of the importance of compartmentalisation.
I feel like compassion is easy to find when calm, relaxed and in good company.
I feel like a lot of the time, for various reasons people are uncomfortable with their present experience and try to escape it.
Rumination in itself for me has been an attempt to control my experience of difficulties and make me feel safe.
However, there is a big sacrifice. Worrying about future difficulties related to the present, often makes the present more difficult than it currently is.
For me, this stemmed from a fear of being incapable of handling the difficulties when they fully arise.
I suffer from a different problem. Whilst I’m quite knowledgeable about my own anxiety and how to handle it. I know very little about how to handle other emotions.
I tend to take thoughts and feelings at face value and not explore them further. Language is actually particularly helpful for this. This habit has bitten me in the butt because I don’t ever really address the underlying issue.
Dear Peter:
Again, I will quote you and respond with whatever comes to my mind:
“Allan Watts… said ‘We seldom realize that our most private thoughts and emotions are not actually our own'”- no valid reason then to feel ashamed of some private thoughts because they are not my own
“Just as the word tree is not a tree, fear, anger, as all such emotion when felt are not a word.”- using words which are 2-dimensional constructs as a way to avoid the 3- dimensional emotional experiences. Hiding behind words.
“Begging the question is Love a emotion?”- more of a decision and a commitment than an emotion in the long-run.
“I can hear Krishnamurti response to the call ‘that people need our love now,’ – Yes Love! What’s stopping you?”- fear. Fear of rejection, fear of being made fun of. I’ll give you an example: as I read yesterday how you ended your post, “I am after all who I am.”- I thought-felt (again) that you, Peter, are cute. I felt that affection again. I then thought of telling you that, as an act of love, I suppose (I just typed “I suppose” because of embarrassment) but didn’t want to do so for fear that you will misunderstand or think little of me. Well, I am telling you now as an act of love and courage. Hmm, this combination of Love and Courage is something I need to think more about. Correction, it’s a combination I need to experience (3-dimensional). Hey, I just did, credit given
(Giving myself credit will make it less painful when I don’t receive credit from the outside).
“For Krishnamurti love is… a state of being that emerges when we cease to cling to what is not love. Love as negation… where we examine and discard what is not love (attachment, fear, competition, violence…)… A topic for another time?”-
– No time like the present, says I: For Krishnamurti, love is the core of who we are, it’s a state of being that exists when the noise of conditioned thoughts (what I called yesterday, OPT) and ego (which operates from a place of self-interest or fear) has been silenced. In essence, love as negation is not about adding more (trying harder to love) but about removing what blocks love from naturally flowing from our core.
Okay, I will let it flow from my core: I like you, Peter. I grew to like you over time and I am happy to be communicating with you!
“Tangent:… In Genesis G_d creates by speaking. In the beginning was the word… Adam (Humanity) made in the image of G_d is then given the task to name… Naming often mistaken for big C Creating. (Lead us not into temptation of mistaking the map for the territory)”- the thought occurred to me that naming things so early on (when Genesis was written), equals the 2-dimensional viewing of life, and with it, the absence of compassion (a 3rd dimension), leading G d to all those uncompassionate and unforgiving acts such as expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden and destroying much of humanity and life in a great flood.
I thought about Genesis in terms of G d’s Anger, but not in terms of G d’s lack of compassion.
“I mentioned that I can’t recall a time when I wasn’t afraid… Perhaps if I enter a hermitage or some sort it might be possible…”- I was afraid several times during the writing of this post. I mentioned one fear already. In addition, I felt that you- or another member- will criticize me for a post that is too long, too tiring to read and make fun of me by bringing this or that part of what I typed here and ridiculing it.
I just had an additional fear: that by typing the above, I gave someone reading the idea of ridiculing me, something they didn’t think of doing before I introduced the possibility.
I think that I am reducing my fear by typing the above even if my prediction comes true and someone out there does what I fear. Isolating myself in a hermitage wouldn’t give me this opportunity.
“I sit quietly and feel without labeling I notice the place in the body, It sits between the heart and throat. I do not have to verbalize it to know that it is.”- noticing the raw experience as it is, without naming it and without trying to fix it.
“I am as I am. I am done trying to fix myself, more verbalization’s of memory, the past in the present that never is… Turning me off rumination
Until the next time… I am after all who I am.”- Funny Peter! It’s time for a poem:
In quiet moments, I sit and see, The tides of thought, they flow through me.
No need to fix, no need to mend, For all begins where I choose to end.Between the heart, the throat, a space, A feeling lives I dare not chase.
No labels, no words, just what is there.I am as I am, no fight within, The ruminations fade, the silence begins. Not past, nor future, but this steady span—
I am, after all, who I am.anita
Dear Alessa:
Thank you so much for your kind words—you truly warmed my heart!
I feel the same about you, and your thoughtful reflections are always such a gift to read.”Your reflections are both insightful and beautifully expressed. The way you reframed anger as an ‘angry teenager’ deserving compassion is such a powerful perspective— offering understanding rather than rejection.
Your distinction between love as an emotion and compassion as a state of mind resonates deeply. This distinction highlights the idea that love may arise spontaneously, while compassion requires conscious intention and effort.
Your belief in treating all people with compassion also resonates— it’s a sentiment the world can always use more of.
I appreciate your honesty about your journey with understanding emotions beyond anxiety. Exploring them through language, as you’ve mentioned, seems like such a promising path.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and insights— they’re a reminder of the strength and growth that come from self-awareness.
anita
Hi Anita
I like your poem, especially the lines
“In quiet moments, I sit and see, The tides of thought, they flow through me.
No need to fix, no need to mend, For all begins where I choose to end.”free of time.
I enjoy reading your posts and seeing what rabbit hole we will fall into.
I also appreciate your vulnerability. Expressing the tension of love and old fear of being ridiculed… moving towards Love that transcends fear. Love that Is. Not easy being vulnerable ‘in time’, to love without expectation. Here again language becomes problematic depending as it does on duality. I like the notion of negation as a path.
Clarissa Pinkola Estes – Skeleton Woman: “Love (temporal love) always causes a descent into the Death nature; we can see why it takes abundant self-power and soulfulness to make the commitment. When one commits to love, one also commits to the revivification for the essences of Skeleton Woman (live-death-life cycle) and all her teachings.” (Teachings leading to the Love, The attribute of the Eternal Now… one must do a lot of dying and untangling of such things like fear, shame…. as we are discovering through the dialog.)
One of the things I like about getting older is that I discovered I can Love without the feeling a need to possess or be possessed by love. It quite freeing as you begin to see everyone as totally and unconditionally Loved by G_d. Everything connected and the table big enough for all.
Aside note
Clarissa Pinkola Estes taught me to embrace symbolic language. With symbolic language (we tend to forget that all words are symbols) reading a story like Cinderella becomes story about overcoming depression – the work to ‘marry’ doing and thinking to being and feeling. In Skeleton Woman that work is to ‘untangle and flesh out the bones’ face what we fear and, in this way, ‘Know’ Love.
The reading of something like Genesis though lens of symbolic language is amazing. For me the wisdom of Genesis is a story of What Is.I use G_d as a method to show humility and reverence towards all things (Holy be thy Name-vibration-OUM) – that which is transcendent. As Transcendence – anything said of G_d, any naming or language applied to G_d must be unsaid. Similar to the negation of what ‘Love is not’.
Dear Peter:
“Free of time”—free of the burdens of the past, free of the worries about the future.
“I enjoy reading your posts and seeing what rabbit hole we will fall into.
I also appreciate your vulnerability. Expressing the tension of love and old fear of being ridiculed… moving towards Love that transcends fear. Love that Is.”—Right here, in this moment, I felt myself moving toward Love that transcends fear, Love that Is, because of your words, because of your response, Peter 
“Not easy being vulnerable ‘in time’, to love without expectation. Here again language becomes problematic depending as it does on duality. I like the notion of negation as a path.”—Love isn’t something to give or receive, to have or not have. It’s not romantic or platonic. These words try to confine something that can’t be confined. Love is something we are—an essential part of us that flows naturally when we allow it.
“Clarissa Pinkola Estes… For me the wisdom of Genesis is a story of What Is.”—The “bones” in Skeleton Woman’s story symbolize the fears, pain, and shame we often avoid. Facing those “bare bones” truths make it possible for us to grow.
Untangling and fleshing out the bones means confronting those fears with compassion, transforming them into wisdom and strength. Committing to “Love that Is” (as you put it) is also a commitment to bringing our true selves to life. It means living fully in the present moment (the Eternal), beyond the limits of time, ego, and expectations (the Temporal), and discovering a deeper, timeless love (Love that Is).
Doing and Thinking cannot replace Being and Feeling- I need to learn to do that further. I am a beginner.
Thank you, Peter. I want to respond further to your post by Monday. I wish you a timeless weekend
️ 
anita
Hi Anita
“Doing and Thinking cannot replace Being and Feeling – I need to learn to do that further. I am a beginner.”
Indeed ones doing, thinking, being, feeling ought to connected not in conflict. It is a work in progress for me as well… a beginner mind is a good place be as this isn’t so much a learning as a happening.
Jung talks of four core psychological functions: Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition and integrating them as a task of individuation. Funny as it may be it is the story of Cinderella I ponder when I think about the integration of the four functions.
Similar to a dream interpretation each character representing an aspect of the psyche.
Father having died representing Cinderella inability to act in creating healthy boundaries and the mother becoming stepmother representing the nurturing spirit turning against the psyche. It is no wonder the Cinderella part of the psyche finds itself in ashes.
Cinderella the feeling functions disconnected from the prince the doing functions. (This is depression and when one finds themselves stuck. Something I know to well.) Being moved towards action and then “marriage”. I wonder if it isn’t also the marriage between the Eternal and Temporal… Also note that the magical or numinous moment that takes Cinderella out of the ‘house’ is not a act of will but a happening.
Today the standard take on Cinderella is to discount it saying something like Cinderella shouldn’t need a Prince to “save and take care” of her. And we wonder why things are so troubling these days. Feeling separated from doing, being separated from thinking… celebrated as independence. A reasons perhaps why stories, even those of the wisdom traditions, no longer seem able to help us. (rant for the day)
Anyway have a good weekend, hopefully the sun will be shining.
Dear Peter:
Thank you for your recent reply and for all your thoughtful posts—I deeply value the insights and reflections you share. Your interpretation of Cinderella is truly fascinating!
I love how you see Cinderella as representing the Feeling function, which has become disconnected from the Doing function (symbolized by the prince). This disconnection leads to stagnation and depression—a state of being stuck and unable to act. The story is about reconnecting these fragmented parts, moving from despair (the ashes) to balance and integration.
The “marriage” between Cinderella and the prince beautifully symbolizes the union of Feeling and Doing—bringing emotions and actions into harmony.
I appreciate your critique of modern interpretations that dismiss the prince and focus only on independence. As you point out, this perspective overlooks the story’s deeper wisdom, undervaluing the importance of integration—not just within ourselves, but in relationships and communities. I agree that this reflects a broader cultural trend of prioritizing independence over interconnectedness, which often leads to fragmentation.
Your insight about individual struggles mirroring societal struggles really struck me. Just as Cinderella’s disconnection leads to depression, a lack of integration in society—between emotions and reason, individuality and connection—results in confusion and disharmony.
I admire how you see stories like Cinderella as tools for teaching wholeness and balance. By overlooking their symbolic depth, we risk losing lessons that can guide us through life’s challenges.
In another thread, you quoted Hermann Hesse. One of his quotes feels especially relevant here: “Home is neither here nor there. Home is within you, or home is nowhere at all.”- I think of home as the place where Thinking, Feeling, Doing, and Being are connected.
Another quote comes to mind: “If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn’t part of ourselves doesn’t disturb us.”- Hatred often mirrors unresolved parts of ourselves—fragments of our psyche that we reject or suppress. This rejection creates fragmentation, disconnecting us from our wholeness. For instance, if we dislike a trait in someone else, it could be a sign we haven’t fully accepted that same trait within ourselves.
In Jungian terms, this ties to the “shadow”—the parts of ourselves we deny or hide. When we fail to integrate the shadow into our conscious awareness, it manifests as projections onto others, reflecting our inner fragmentation. Integration, by contrast, involves recognizing these reflections, embracing them, and bringing the fragmented parts of ourselves back into harmony.
This also applies on a societal level. When groups project their fears or inadequacies onto “the other,” it creates division and fragmentation.
Thank you again, Peter, for sharing your perspective. I always enjoy these rabbit holes with you—they feel like true shared discoveries. Wishing you a weekend filled with timeless moments and sunshine!
️anita
*Magically, the sun just broke through the clouds for the first time today.. and went back.
Though I run this site, it is not mine. It's ours. It's not about me. It's about us. Your stories and your wisdom are just as meaningful as mine. 