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November 16, 2018 at 9:29 pm #238121
LilyParticipantI think it probably came off like I think he only wants sex, but that’s not what I meant. I am such an idiot!!!!
Is it better to say nothing, if you have an infectious illness? Is it better to wait, until you meet the person and then say: listen, I can’t hug you right now, but I’m happy to see you?
But he also says nothing to me about it, about what he thinks… I would prefer he would ask or even reproach me. But like this, we cannot move further. And maybe the things I said were just stupid to say. Maybe a normal person would never say that.
November 17, 2018 at 4:24 am #238131
AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
I read a bit through your previous two threads, you might want to do it yourself sometime and take notes. I think I gave you good input regarding the inner critic, core beliefs and more. Maybe re-reading my past input to you when you are calm and taking a few notes, letting ideas sink in, may help you now.
For the purpose of understanding what is happening with K, let’s look at what you wrote Jan 2016 regarding the man in the dormitory: “From the start he didn’t accept when I said no. He often pressured me to have sex and wouldn’t leave my room when I told him to… I’m very bad at saying no.. I actually was attracted to him. So yes, I wanted sex and sometimes even enjoyed it, but that doesn’t mean that he can come into my room whenever he wants and pressure me to have sex!” Two years later, Feb 2018, you wrote about the same man: “The crazy thing is that I still feel attached to him and even miss him somehow? Some part of me actually wants to respond to him… I think the problem with that man was, that I was doubting my own judgment. I felt that what was happening was not good and that it was an unhealthy relationship. So I tried to end it, but he always came back like nothing serious had happened. And I opened my door for him because I felt guilty, I hoped we could talk things out and fix it. I wondered if I was the abusive one… If it is clear to me that someone is behaving rude, I think I would react differently. I feel confused”
My input: there were a few motivations in your state of mind at the time, a state of mind that still exists with K:
1. You are a social being, a social animal, all humans are. You have a need and a desire at times to interact with people, to be in other people’s company. As a social animal you get emotionally attached to other people, even without liking them. All humans get attached to others without even liking the people we get attached to.
2. You are a sexual being, a sexual animal, all humans are. You have a need and a desire at times to experience sexual stimulation and feelings, sometimes when approached sexually before being touched, sometimes following being touched.
3. Like all humans you too have an inner critic that criticizes you every day, telling you what you are doing wrong, that what you just said might have been the wrong thing to say, and like all humans you kind-of hear other people thoughts about you, criticizing you (the inner critic projecting itself to others).
So far, #1, 2 and 3 exist in you same as in every other human being. #3 though is especially dominant in you, a very strong, insistent, stubborn critical voice. It repeatedly tells you that you are wrong, bad (even toxic, “what if you are the toxic person” is the title of your current thread).
Even when clearly the other person is wrong (the man in the dormitory), the inner critic still tells you that it is you, not him, that is wrong. Next you feel guilty for being wrong and you try to make it up to him for your perceived wrongness/ badness, and you get confused, seeing at times that he is wrong but believing your inner critic when it says that you are wrong, not knowing what is true to reality, lost not knowing what is really happening. Not being able to evaluate situations and people correctly, not for long.
You try best you can to do the right thing by people based on the voice of your inner critic, warn them of the evil that might come to them because of associating with you. Your oral herpes and eye infection get your inner critic all… excited, sort of, as it energetically points out to the visible badness and wrongness about you.
Basically, you are a normal human being with a severely oversized, unreasonable, insistent, persistent and stubborn inner critic. Your inner critic has long passed any semblance of reasonableness. It simply doesn’t make sense!
Sure you should not kiss a person when you have oral herpes and stay away from people when you have the flu, be socially responsible this way, but you overdo this social responsibility by a lot.
What can I say… you are not a bad person. You are a good person. But you have an insane inner critic that tells you otherwise and insists on it!
I figure when you fought with your sister as a child and your father took her side repeatedly, no matter how wrong she was, letting you know that you were at the wrong, that you were bad, he must have been very persistent in that behavior, insistent, stubborn, emotional, so his mental representative (your inner critic) is also persistent, insistent, stubborn, emotional and very convincing.
To live a better life, you need to shrink that inner critic by a lot, learn to not believe it. Guided by a senseless inner critic that ignores reality leads to a senseless life that .. ignores reality.
I would like you to stop presenting yourself to K and to anyone as a bad person, because it is not true to reality.
anita
November 17, 2018 at 5:20 am #238145LilyParticipantDear anita,
thank you. I think it is a good idea to review the old threads later. Right now I can’t really concentrate…I feel very stressed and not calm at all…
I realize that I blew this out of proportion and it will seem very odd to K. I wanted to do the right thing, I thought it was the right thing to tell him. But of course it was exaggerated.
That he is not responding now really makes me feel like I made a huge mistake. I think by now he will definitely not want anything to do with me. But maybe this is another thing that I’m blowing out of proportion.
My father is indeed a very stubborn and emotional person. He is insecure, but he tries to come off as tough to the outside world. He can’t take critizism, he has no friends and always sees a lot of flaws in other people. He is not very open minded, starting with food, music, human behaviour… I think he couldn’t understand me as achild, sometimes not behaving rationally. I felt like he disliked me, didn’t accept me.
Sometimes I can see the good things in me… I am open minded to other worldviews, I try to be kind to people and I’m creative. But then I also too often tell myself “I am a bad person” like a mantra.
I think it will take time until I can overcome this. At least I’m starting to understand myself better and seeing things clearer.
November 17, 2018 at 5:37 am #238149AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
“I try to be kind to people”- problem is that believing you are bad, that is, harmful to people, you are kind to people by warning them about you, so that they stay away. You warn people of your badness and the damage yet to come to them if they associate with you.
It really doesn’t matter so much what you told K last. The problem is bigger than the last communication with him. Even if your last communication with him was encouraging, your “‘I am a bad person’.. mantra” was going to catch up with you soon enough and rain on your parade, so to speak.
So look at the bigger picture, calm down best you can, re-read what I wrote to you here on this page, and later, take notes regarding previous posts I wrote to you, learn what there is to learn.
And post again anytime.
anita
November 19, 2018 at 6:14 am #238409LilyParticipantDear anita,
I read through the previous threads and took some notes. It has become clearer to me that the heart of the problem is my self hate and inner critic (I knew before, but I needed a reminder). Often I get distracted with everyday problems and mistakes I make. But at these particular moments, I feel extreme feelings of self hate and can’t think clearly. Then I lose track of the bigger picture…
Over the weekend I was so distressed, especially on Saturday. I felt crazy and like I had made a huge mistake. Then K. wrote to me on Saturday afternoon. He said we can meet another time, when I’m feeling better and am less worried. He also asked since when I was sick and said that I had told him that I was fine. And he also said he is “on his way now”.
I had mentioned the eye infection before to him, but said that good healing options are available (that’s what the doctor said too). I didn’t want to worry him, but when he wanted to meet me, I felt it was my obligation to inform him more… So when I responded to him I only explained that and that I often worry too much, especially when I fear to hurt another…
But I don’t know if he still wanted to see me and if “on his way” meant that he wanted to still see me, or that he was on his way home. But I didn’t ask further, I just didn’t have any energy left that day. At that point (he wrote about 4 pm), I had already assumed that he didn’t want to see me. He also didn’t ask more, only after a while he wrote that it’s all good, that I shouldn’t worry and it will be o.K. I just thanked him and said that I hope so too and asked if he is on the train now…
I would like to explain myself further to him, but I don’t know… I don’t want to make myself look even weirder. And maybe I’m revealing too much about myself… I think his message was very considerate, I think I should thank him for that. I would like to explain to him that I sometimes have fears and self doubt, but that I’m working to overcome this. And I want to ask him how he is doing… I’m sad we didn’t see each other! I make my own life difficult!
But o.K. back to the actual problem, my extreme self-hate… The most important thing for me now should be to overcome this. I think I should really journal every day and note down my thoughts, like you suggested. Write down situations in which these beliefs come up and examine them and question them. And I guess it will take time.
And I think in my further communication with him, I should think more, pause more, before I respond. He also often doesn’t respond immediately. Better think about what I want and how to communicate with him (If he is still interested in communication with me…) and others.
This morning I was feeling very bad, but now I’m feeling better again. Yesterday I was thinking that I had made some progress. For example, I don’t think so much about that ex anymore. Also, my drawings have improved, I think they have become more true to myself than before. And I’m notice my behavioural patterns more now. I realize that I often take things too personally, that my fears of hurting others are exaggerated, that I worry too much about what others think, feel guilty easily and am too self critical.
I think I really do what you said: I warn people of me… I have these fears of not being a good friend, of hurting others, not being there enough for others. What I also thought about during the last weeks: people tell me they feel calm when they spend time with me. One felt better when talking to me after a breakup, one said meeting me is like “coming home”. Weird how these people see me as this calm person, while I have so much inner turmoil going on!
November 19, 2018 at 8:06 am #238439AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
You make sense, pretty good insight, good understanding. It will take time and practice to notice, examine, question, and insert rational, true-to-reality thoughts into the mix of distorted thoughts and false core beliefs.
Basically you are a good person believing she is bad.
And you go out of your way to protect others from your badness, a badness that doesn’t exist.
Maybe people feel safe with you, or home with you because you are so very polite, so accommodating, so careful for them to not be hurt… I suppose that as you heal and function better, you will keep that caring for other people, so they will keep feeling home with you. The difference will be that you will feel at home too, with yourself, no longer in turmoil.
You will continue to care for others to be good to others, but not at your expense, and not to cover up for a non-existing badness.
anita
November 21, 2018 at 10:01 am #240057LilyParticipantDear anita,
thank you for your encouraging words! I was doing a little bit better yesterday and today. I still feel embarressed and crazy for writing those messages to K. last weekend. But I try to tell myself that it won’t matter in a year from now and that I won’t give up!
Thank you for your help! Take care!
November 21, 2018 at 11:48 am #240073AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
You are welcome and thank you for your good wishes for me. Take good care of yourself as well and continue to not give up!
anita
December 23, 2018 at 11:01 am #270613LilyParticipantHello,
I’m sorry to write again… I think you already gave a lot of advice to me and won’t know what else to say.
At the moment I just feel overwhelmed… I try to focus on the present, but I feel very hopeless… Will it ever get better? It seems my problems are even bigger than I thought.
My therapist told me that “she can’t feel me”. Appearantly I’m not expressing what I feel, but only express thoughts. After the last session I felt so confused… She said also that I can ask her how she feels and that she will tell me her honest opinion, without going easy on me. I only said “yes, o.K.” to that, because I already was so overwhelmed at that point. She had asked me a lot of questios, like “On a scale, how open are you with me?”. And I didn’t know what to answer. I got nervous, but I only realized that, when she asked. She asked how does therapy make me feel? Do I like to go to therapy? I said that I felt neutral, but later realized, that I was very uncomfortable.
Now I’m wondering how I made her feel, what she wanted to tell me. Am I too unattainable? Do I tell things that put a strain on her? Am I egoistical? Do I make others feel bad?
I also visited K. last week and I didn’t feel comfortable. And probably made him uncomfortable as well. I felt not so good after that visit. I don’t know if a normal relationship will ever be possible for me. I don’t know if I will ever be o.K.
At the moment, I try to focus on other things, I try to work on my art projects, but it’s hard. I’m feeling agitated and hopeless.
I will work some more now, do yoga later. Hope it helps.
December 23, 2018 at 11:50 am #270637AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
I am glad you posted again and hope you continue to post (no need to apologize for posting again!)
I will be able to read all of your recent post when I am back to the computer in about sixteen hours and will reply to you then.
anita
December 24, 2018 at 8:04 am #270735AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
If you are referring to the same therapist you mentioned before, the one who suggested you see someone else and didn’t get back to you, then I think she was not a good therapist.
Not all therapists are capable, many are disturbed themselves, impatient, distracted and so on. She asked “On a scale, how open are you with me?” I don’t think it is a good question to ask a client/patient. It is too easy for the patient to see an accusation in the question, that you are not open with her. Plus the question is vague. A specific question would have made sense, instead of this too vague question or statement. I think she was impatient with you, did you get that impression?
Mentioning Patience, you have to be very patient with yourself. You are up against a very critical “inner critic”, a very aggressive voice in your head that keeps telling you that you mess things up, that you make mistakes, that you should have said this and should not have said that and on and on and on. It keeps making you feel distressed and discouraged.
It will take a lot of you being gentle and patient with yourself, taking on small challenges in regard to relationships with other, not big challenges, aiming at a little progress at a time. over a long time. I hope the new year is such a time of gradual, patient progress for you.
Merry Christmas to you, and please do post any time you want. You can post every day, you can not post for weeks and even months and then post again. No timing rules here, anytime you want. I will be glad to read from you and reply!
anita
December 25, 2018 at 11:21 am #270849LilyParticipantDear anita,
thank you for you well wishes, I hope yo have a merry christmas as well!
I’m visiting my parents… It’s o.K., but actually I’m glad to return back to my city again. My sister said she always gets depressed when coming home. Now I’m feeling also a little depressed. We went to see our grandmother today. It always feels like we are the black sheep of the family. But there are also some good things. I get along with my parents better than in the past and our christmas is not as stressful as in other families. Tomorrow I will also cook for everyone and try out a new recipe.
How is your christmas going?
The therapist I was talking about, was my new therapist. The old one did never return my call and I will not try to reach her any more. Sometimes I still get angry at her when thinking about how the therapy ended.
But with the new one, I feel like she really cares and I actually had a good impression of her. Maybe I was expecting too much of her. She once said, that there is a contadiction between my wish to grow strong and independent and my desire to be guided. Maybe it feels for her like I want her to solve all my problems? Maybe part of me really wants someone to tell me what to do…
Sometimes I feel like therapists only want clients with smaller problems…
The question about how open I am came after I told her, that some weeks before I was feeling depressed after the therapy session. I had already felt bad that day (I told her), but we somehow ended up talking about something else. It was after I had cancelled that meeting with K. because I was afraid of infecting him and I wanted to talk about that. But we talked about my career problems instead and it made me feel even worse. I didn’t stop her, because I thought that it is an important thing for me to talk about. Because I have to face my problems. Just that on that day, I was already very down and it was too much. I think I didn’t trust myself enough to say “stop”. I also feared that maybe I will get lost talking about the same problems over and over again, without making any progress.
When I told her about me being depressed afterwards, she said that she got really sad because “she couldn’t feel me”. And then she asked who is the person I’m most open with? And I answered my best friend. And then she asked: if my friend is 100 % of openness on a scale, how open am I with her? I didn’t know how to answer. I already told her a lot of personal things about me. But maybe I should have told her how I felt. I guess I often avoid uncomfortble conversations. I didn’t even know before that I don’t express how I feel… When I talked with my sister about that, she said that her therapist told her something similar (that she has problems expressing what she feels).
But you are right, there seems to be a level of pressure to be open. She also said: “we have a lot of time” “maybe we just aren’t at this point yet”. Kind of contradictory.
I’m wondering what those feelings she doesn’t want to spare me with are… It must be something bad… I will ask her, but the next session is only after the holidays.
I want to be more patient with myself. You are right that I often feel like I acted wrongly or said something wrong. And exaggerate. I have this feeling that the way that I am is not good. That I should have achieved more, should be more secure, should know what to say… But I need to stop these thoughts. Recently I mainly think that I am embarressing and crazy. But for example my best friend says that there is nothing I do that is embarressing. She always believes so much in me, but I can’t believe it myself. But I guess if only I was more relaxed and accepted myself more, I wouldn’t seem crazy…
Hopefully I can make some progress in the new year. When I get back home, I want to take a day or so to really write down my goals, clean my room and clear my mind…
Thank you, that I can post here again and again and that you read and reply!
December 25, 2018 at 1:14 pm #270873AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
Merry Christmas to you. My day is fine and dandy, took a walk outside in the cold air, now sitting on my reclining chair by the woodstove, nice and warm.
I hope this current therapist is much better than the previous one, and that she will make it possible for you to feel comfortable during the sessions with her, that in her presence, you will not feel crazy and weird. I would like to somehow make such an experience possible for you in the context of this thread, that when you read from me and write to me, that you will not feel crazy or weird.
I still don’t understand her question about being open with her, comparing it to how open you are with a friend. I think you are quite open here, in communication with me.
One thing that is making your life difficult is that you doubt yourself so often, thinking that you are harming the person you are communicating with by saying the wrong thing or not saying the right thing, the right way, and so on. This ongoing self doubting that is making your life difficult makes it difficult for other people who communicate with you to have an easy, comfortable communication with you.
I wish you therefore a flowing new year, less self doubt, more feeling of you being an okay human being, (not crazy, not weird, not a “toxic person”, see title of your thread).
anita
December 26, 2018 at 8:29 am #270969LilyParticipantDear anita,
your day sounds very nice. Good to hear that you are doing well.
Usually I don’t feel crazy when communicting with you. I also thought that all was o.K. with my therapist, but I got confused after the last session. Maybe it’s different, because I meet her in person, while I write to you. I think writing is easier for me, I can express myself better through writing. I don’t like to talk. Most of the time I feel like I don’t know what to say and people expect me to talk more, not be shy, say something interesting. But often I feel like the things I say are stupid, not interesting or that I share too much personal things.
I told my therapist a lot of personal things, like I told you here. But appearantly I didn’t tell her how I feel. I didn’t tell her that I wanted to talk about that topic. But I don’t think it wasn’t because I wasn’t open. The same thing happened, that happens with me in real life. I didn’t trust in my own feeling, my own needs and thought that she must know better.
Or maybe it was because I didn’t tell her in the next session, how depressed I got after that session. I only told her later, when she was asking me questions about therapy (I don’t remember what she asked specifically).
Once we also had made a plan for me to document my work progress. But I didn’t really document it, I made a plan in my head and it also went quite well. I just documented it a few days later. But I didn’t tell her that I didn’t stick to our original plan. I wasn’t open and honest there.
In therapy somehow I got very nervous a few times. My voice got high pitched, I started to play with my pen. It also happens in real life, with K. it was especially bad. I felt so uncomfortable when I met him last week! With him I feel so inadequate. I just can’t imagine that someone could like me or love me or want to be with me. But in his case, I don’t think he is interested (anymore?).
I don’t want to do things just to please others anymore! I want to think more about what I want… People will not respect me and I will not respect myself, if I do anything that they supposedly want. I will only feel ashamed of myself, like I felt after my visit with K. I hope I can finally change that, but I wanted to change it before…
For the new year hope that I can value myself more and not let others take advantage of me or disrespect me. I rather want to take better care of myself…
You are right, my own self doubt will make it difficult for others to talk to me. I feel so unhappy with myself and am not relaxed when talking to people. I wish I could feel more o.K. with myself – but lately it feels like I get more and more insecure or that I’m doubting myself more.
Hopefully I can make progress in the new year. Sometimes I wonder if I should still post in this thread – the title seems so negative – not like a growth mindset at all…
Hope you have a good day today! Take care!
December 26, 2018 at 8:40 am #270975AnonymousGuestDear Lily:
Regarding no longer posting on this thread, you are welcome to start a new thread with a new title, today or at any day, maybe even on Jan 1, 2019, a new year, a new beginning.
The therapy relationship is not like any other relationship, a friendship of sorts. The therapist is supposed to help you, to teach you and guide you, this is her job. So it is not about you making a good impression on her, or pleasing her, it is about you being helped by a professional who is hopefully capable of helping you (it takes more than having that certificate!)
Your self doubting is a serious problem, no doubt about that (!)
How can a person have peace of mind when there is a voice in there giving you a hard time all day long, all your waking hours (outside of much needed yet temporary breaks)? I know it is not possible, from personal experience. And I know from personal experience that significant healing can take place with help and lots of persistence and patience!
anita
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