Dear Seaturtle: I will read and reply Sat morning.

anita

Dear Nick:

You shared that you served 15 years in the military. For about 8 years following your release from the military you went on only 2 dates, and then you met your now ex-girlfriend, had a 6-months relationship with her and just broke up.

You gave her the key to my place a couple weeks into the relationship. You gave her your phone password (I assume she asked for your password. I wonder what reason she gave you for asking, and why you gave it to her).

“She went through my phone… she went through my stuff… she found some stuff in my social on my Gmail…  She also made a point to go through my browser history“- my goodness, she acted like a detective looking for evidence against you, and she did it repeatedly throughout the relationship, from beginning to end.

“Saw I had not deleted some dating sites from like years ago… I apologized…  Again I apologized..  She did the unfriend me on Facebook and snap chat and refriend me then unfriend me… I had an emotional melt down“- it doesn’t surprise me that a searched,  interrogated, unfriended, re-friended and unfriended-again man will have a melt down. Seems like you entered the relationship as a Guilty Man, in her mind, and she was looking for proof all along, that you are indeed guilty.

Her behavior is not unusual for women who were betrayed in their past, projecting their distrust into future men. Basically, you paid the price for someone else who betrayed her, someone you don’t even know.

“.…But most of all I will remember being betrayed by my best friend and lover over stuff I had subscribed to over the course of being in the military for 15 years. Being back in Wisconsin and not dating anyone for 8 years. I gave you my all, and apparently, that was not enough“- you gave her your honest thoughts and feelings.. and you were indeed betrayed by the woman who falsely accused you of betraying her.

“I unloaded on her and I regret doing that… She also filed a formal hr complaint which I can’t blame her“- I didn’t notice any abusive unloading on your part.. what is it exactly that you regret, and what was the HR complaint about?

You don’t have to answer, of course. Share only what you feel comfortable sharing.

anita

Welcome to the forums, EdwardMatthew! You wrote that you saw almost all the posts.. what do you like about what you saw?

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

“(N) has described feeling alone in his childhood. He said he was often left home alone and played by himself. He has said that his mom didn’t really listen to him and didn’t SEE him… He said when his mom was mad at him it automatically made her mad at his dad to, as if all his ‘faults’ were because of his dad’s influence“- his mom’s anger was directed at his dad, not at her son. It is not an ideal situation, of course.. but him being out of the line of fire, may have been a positive aspect of his childhood compared to the alternative.

“I agree, it was not out of love. He would frame it as love, and make me feel so guilty as if I was not loving him enough. My mom, on the other hand was very selfless when it came to splitting time with my parents…”- (1) making one’s daughter feel so guilty = NOT loving one’s daughter. (2) your mother’s selfless behavior was a positive aspect in your childhood, compared to the alternative of having two selfish, self-centered parents.

“I have always felt I lacked self discipline, I struggle to stick with things like jobs (for over a year) and when I try to get on a healthy workout routine, I lose motivation at about 4 weeks. I just start to feel like what’s the point, I only have one life why am I living it with rules for myself..“- feeling restrained by rules, as in being unfree, caged in, jailed…?

“How my dad made me feel at the ‘house cleaning’ meetings. He would list all these things I did that showed that I was ungrateful for… manipulate me into feeling so bad… I truly attempted to be hyper aware and thought of how every little thing I did could possibly be interpreted by him. I once told him I felt I was walking on egg shells… I thought everything was just my fault“-

– feeling that everything was your fault and feeling scared of the next house-cleaning meeting, trying to prevent the next and the next by walking on egg shells, keeping yourself hyper aware of every little thing: this emotional state in itself is a form of imprisonment.. something anyone would want to be FREE from.

“Is it because I had toxic parents at home that when I got to school I had no energy for any more toxic people? As if I went to school already exhausted and drained I couldn’t take on any more?“-

– I am guessing that in school, you didn’t feel the fear/ guilt/ confusion that you felt in your father’s house (and which blocked you from confronting him), so you didn’t have these things in your way, blocking you from confronting toxic people at school.

“How do I allow myself to be in a care free child state, and a strong self-reliant adult, at the same time? For example, if one day hatchling is craving a care free childlike day of arts/crafts but adult Seaturtle needs to be self-reliant and go to her job where hatchling has to sit still“-

– Think of this: two mothers take their children to their workplace. One child is used to be carefree and childlike at home. At the workplace, she plays, but not too loudly and she doesn’t run around breaking things. Much of the time she can sit still as she plays. And so, the mother and the child can co-exist at work.

The second child is not used to be care-free and childlike at home, she often feels restrained and having to act like an adult, careful and cautious, walking on egg shells, so she craves to be carefree and childlike. Once given the chance (outside the home), she overdoes it: she keeps yelling, running and bumping into things and she can’t sit still. The two, mother and child have to go home, or to the park because they cannot co-exist at work.

“This is intense. Towards the end of living with my dad and after, I thought his misplaced trust or expectations of me were those that he expected and never received from my mother… My mom broke his trust in many ways, and it was as if he treated my teenage years of sneaking out to parties I wasn’t allowed to go to, as if I had cheated on him in marriage.. He also treated me like I was a (very bluntly put) like I was a slut like my mom… Before leaving to school from ages 13-18 my outfits would get checked… he told me I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans without a shirt that covered my butt… he would promote outfits that made me look like a box… sexualizing me and telling me how boys would think”, “what do you think about this?“-

– I think covert incest. I think of a child placed in a box that’s labeled “adult”. I think of a daughter placed in a box labeled “wife”. I think it gets claustrophobic in that box. I’d think you can’t sit still in that box.

“I went to the kitchen, got a knife from the drawer and went back to my room and held it to my bare chest, I remember wanting to end it right there, but after just leaving a very small red dot, I put it under my bed“- this is what a girl does when placed and kept in a box for too long.

“I was able to calm my anxiety, when he showed up it re-appeared inside me but I didn’t say anything in the anxiety and after about 15 min we were sitting down and I felt at peace and we enjoyed the evening together. When I wrote the post the next morning, the feelings rose up again, and it made me wonder if the night before I ‘over-tamed’ hatchling? What do you think?”- I think that it will take a significant degree of freeing the caged girl from the box before you can figure appropriate self discipline vs over-self-discipline. The caged girl (over-tamed hatchling)- needs out of the box.

“I feel like I have been dealing with two separate battles when it comes to deciding if this is the right relationship for me. Part one of the battle, is what we majorly speak about… Also sexually, we are compatible in many ways, enough to be satisfied with. However I find a lot of other things in life erotic, foreplay… he skips foreplay often unless I sort of make it all happen… I like myself better when I embody my feminine energy….  N brings out my tom-boy behaviors..  I miss my femininity. I sort of feel like I want a man that brings the parts of me I love, out to the surface“-

– out from the dark box to the surface where there’s light; out of the non-feminine, non-sexual/ tom boy box your father (not N) placed you in?

“I also feel like eroticism is what I want to be involved too. By eroticism, I mean a compatibility in what turns us on and makes us feel connected, I have this desire for someone to connect with me so deeply, I know it exists on this earth and I want it. Sometimes I wonder if I break up with N…  the universe will reward me with something magnetically just magical.. I truly hope my hopes are not DANGEROUSLY too high of expectations“-

– I think your that your expectations are indeed too high because.. a girl caged in a non-sexual box IMAGINES that sex must be .. eternally magnetic and magical. It is similar to a starving person imagining eating a steak, imagining it to always- every time and for the rest of his life- be a magical, heavenly experience. But after the first few times.. it isn’t. Sometimes it is, but at other times it’s overcooked or undercooked or it’s too chewy or you’re just not very hungry, etc.

N may not be the guy for you, there might be someone more compatible, but unrealistic expectations need to be considered.

“Do you think that I can re-associate and release my feelings about my childhood experiences with my father through art?… a blank canvas could be helpful for me…  I have considered starting an art therapy class, I am not sure how to go about it or what qualification’s I would need, but it seems like I may be looping back to that idea“- reads promising to me. Art is definitely a way to re-associate with and process dissociated feelings.

“I appreciate this option to journal here“- journal away..!

“(F) would also always tell me I basically wasn’t special… He literally told me I didn’t have original thoughts. Like I would say something I thought was a good idea or think I started a trend or that people liked what I wore or something like that and he would laugh and just make fun of me for thinking I came up with it”- he wanted you in the box: no curves and no original ideas (or humor) allowed.. In the box without anything that makes you.. you.

“I do believe I am unique. I think I project F into N in this scenario though, because I don’t feel like he thinks I am special.. I battle this. I often wonder if N would pick me from a room of women… I don’t know how much of this is projecting F into N“-

– I agree that you are unique but your craving to be unique is too strong.. like the starving person craving a steak, the craving leads to (1) frustrations that are too intense in regard to what’s lacking in the present, (2) unrealistic expectations of a magical future.

It is your right of course, to break up with N. I’m just saying that.. well, I said it right above.

anita

Dear Kate:

Welcome back to the forums, and congratulations n getting married. You shared about your husband in your first thread back in May-Sept 2021. I want to go over the content of your first thread where we communicated,  so to understand your current situation better.

In late May 2021, you shared that in 2020, during lockdown, you started talking to a guy (you referred to him as D, your current husband) who was “a very good friend since the start of my college“. You developed feelings for him sometime along the way and got emotionally attached to him . In November 2020 he proposed to you, you accepted his proposal and the two of you started dating.

At the end of May 2021 (the date of your first thread), you expressed a concern which is very similar to your concern today, 2.5 years later: “It concerns me. Had my bf had feelings for someone else, it would have really hurt me and wouldn’t, for sure, have known how to deal with that. Even sometimes currently, when D doesn’t reply (to) me on time, despite being online, I get scared thinking that he might be talking to someone else. Not sure if I am having trusting issues or I am insecure of myself“.

In the beginning of June 2021, you shared about past romantic relationships that didn’t go well. In the first, your boyfriend at the time told you that while the two of you weren’t talking for seven days, “he started seeing someone else. And when we got back together, he broke up with that girl. And this really broke me. My belief system was complete shattered“.

Your second boyfriend was critical of your body and looks. You shared about him and a girl in your friend group: “gradually I started seeing their rapport building…  we would fight a lot because of that girl“.

In regard to D: “I find it difficult to remain positive about my current relationship. My boyfriend is a great guy. He cares for me and loves me. But sometimes, I just feel a disconnect. I am not sure where is the issue and how do I deal with it.. I find it difficult to trust him. I feel scared that what if he talks to someone and falls for her. The other day we were just talking and he tells me that there are no girls in his team (work). I asked if he wants girls in his team to which he said it’s good to have a diverse team. He meant everything in a positive way but it’s me who’s not able to take anything positively I guess. Whenever, he doesn’t reply to me, I feel paranoid about what he might be doing“.

“As a child, I was insecure of my looks and was made fun of or not treated well by other children at times“.

End of September 2021: “I am doing good. Started with a new job. Relationship is progressing. Though there are ups and downs but it is going in the forward direction“.

Two+ years later, you shared today, Nov 9, 2023, that you are married to D: ” I read my husband’s text messages sometimes. I know I shouldn’t do this but just not able to control it. May be, trust issues.”-

– surely trust issues. At the end of May 2021, you wrote: “Not sure if I am having trusting issues or I am insecure of myself“. I think it’s both and the two are connected: feeling that you are physically unattractive can easily lead to not trusting a man to be loyal to.. an allegedly unattractive woman.

“So, a few days ago, I read that he texted one of his female friends back in 2021 (we were dating then) that if he ever has to have an extra marital affair, it would be with that friend….  I knew of this girl to be a close friend but I had no idea about any history with this girl“- he may have a flirting history with her and nothing more. Flirting between young, single men and women is very common. At the time you were neither married nor engaged, correct?

Here is a key question: since you’ve been reading his text messaging history: did you find any flirtatious messages between him and other women while the two of you were engaged or married?

“I feel his involvement too much in his friends or phone at times and that causes insecurity and anxiety. Please help me how should I handle this!“-

– In regard to you feeling that he is too involved with his friends and phone-  male and female friends? Any flirtatious involvement? If the answer to the latter is No, and if you found no history of flirtatious messages on his phone since the two of you were engaged and married.. then it is very normal (although not a positive thing) for especially young people to spend a LOT of time on their phones- not an indication of cheating. Also, because of your great sensitivity to the possibility of being cheated on, I assume that any involvement with a female friend would feel like too much… depending how insecure and anxious you feel at any particular moment. Do you agree.. or disagree?

“I don’t know if I should confront him or not about this. If I have to confront him then I don’t know how should I do that. Because I read his messages secretly“- the title of your thread is Trust issues. If he finds out that you’ve been secretly reading his messages, he might develop trust issues in regard to you! Clear to me that you should stop reading his messages.

“Not able to control it“, you wrote today in regard to secretly reading his messages. We can talk about ways for you to become able to control the compulsion perhaps, to secretly check his messages.

I am looking forward to your reply and hope to communicate with you further.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I will reply further in the morning, but for now, regarding your intelligent question: “how do I replace N with my actual father in that parallel universe?”-

-answer:  re-associate with your feelings about your childhood experience with your father. Elaborated: a child stuck with a difficult, abusive parent dissociates best she can, pushing her distressing feelings as far down as she can, becoming minimally aware of them and therefore, minimally distressed.

The real-life child dissociates from herself.. leading to an adult with a dissociated inner child, an inner child who will not stay quiet, insisting to be heard.

You can think of these dissociated distressing feelings as ghosts looking for a body to associate with/ to enter. So, they look for a romantic partner as that body to enter (be projected into), for the purpose of finding resolution and calm. Direct those ghosts to your father so that they will leave N alone. One way to do it is in talk therapy, expressing how you felt back then in the context of your interactions with your father; another way is to journal (you can journal here, on your thread).

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I know the frustration when it happens. Try to relax and take all the time that you need.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I hope that you are okay with another message with afterthoughts and further development of my yesterday’s message (while it is still fresh in my mind, the reason I am posting again this morning). Please take all the time that you need to read (if you choose to read, as always) and consider things at your own pace.

First, trying to resolve childhood conflicts with parents by proxy of romantic partners in adulthood is very, very common. Somehow the sexual factor in the adult, romantic relationship does not interfere with the projection of a parent into the romantic partner.

Second, while this is happening, what I wrote right above, your adult awareness is lacking and you think and feel that the problems are all about who N is, not aware that for Hatchling.. N is your father. If and when you become aware of this, you will be able to sort of rise above the situation and tell the difference between the real-life, current universe and that parallel universe I mentioned yesterday. With that awareness, Hatchling (the inner child) will no longer be in charge. Seaturtle (the adult) will be in charge, as she should be.

Let’s look back at your very first post in July 29, 2023 (and again, I am adding the boldface feature to your words): “I fell in love for the first time October 13 2021″- the projection f your father (I’ll refer to him as F in this post) into N was made possible by you falling in love with N. If you didn’t project F into romantic partners before, it was because you were not in love with them.

“We met on Tinder, he was late for the first date… our third date he accidentally stood me up after working an all-nighter and I was absolutely devastated, and told him it was over“- it could have been on the 3rd date that the projection of F into N took hold because N stood you up (a negative experience). Your response-absolutely devastated–  suggests this to me.

“He is not afraid of commitment with me, he talks about kids, willing to be a stay at home dad or be the bread winner, whatever I want!! He is truly a stand up man, he is so kind and deeply cares for those around him“- he is all these wonderful things.. but he stood you up on the third date and the projection of F into N was in place. Thereafter, Hatchling is focusing on N’s negatives, real and imagined.

“”I don’t think we are soulmates. But we are very in love, I have been dealing with these small disconnects for a long time but they keep coming back to me. OR is this all just me running away from the most genuine and loving/caring/kind/PATIENT/ would-do-anything-for-me man ??????????????”

Hatchling’s motivation is to change F (by proxy of N) from an ingenuine, unloving/ uncaring/unkind/IMPATIENT/would-do-nothing-for-me father into the most genuine and loving/caring/kind/PATIENT/ would-do-anything-for-me father.. a soulmate.

“I really have been having this entire debate in my head for a straight 6-8 months now and I don’t want to waste my time, I want to move on or commit…  I am exhausted with this decision” (July 29, 2023).

A day after, you asked: “I definitely know I have a great base to nurture and this could be a solid relationship. But then why do I crave to have the same sense of humor and be on the same spiritual journey. Is it just my own issues you think? and leaving him would just be some trust and commitment issues flaring up and running away from something  good?” (July 30, 2023)-

– I wasn’t a participant at the time, so I didn’t try to answer your questions. After reading your 7-page second thread, I will offer you my answers:

“Why do I crave to have the same sense of humor and be on the same spiritual journey”?- the LACK you experienced in your relationship with F was so severe (think of it as close to a 0% match or fit between you and F, between what Hatchling needed and what F offered) that it created a CRAVING for the extreme opposite of this lack, which is 100% match, a 100% fit.

“Is it just my own issues you think?”- your issues which predated the relationship with N are serious enough to address and resolve. It doesn’t mean that N is perfect and has no issues. Of course he has issues, (everyone does), but don’t use his issues to.. sort of prove that the main, ongoing problems in the relationship is caused by him.

“Leaving him would just be some trust and commitment issues flaring up and running away from something  good?”- Hatchling is running away from something bad (a bad relationship with F), not from something good. (I am not mentioning your mother’s part in the complexity so to keep it simpler and because in your younger years, Hatchling’s empathy- and  stronger emotional attachment- were with her father, not with her mother).

When I say bad, I mean that to Hatchling, F was a bad experience, a person to distrust. Fast forward, Hatchling distrusts N because she projects F into him.

I want to elaborate on the complication in the situation: because you repeatedly accuse N of being unempathetic, insensitive, etc. (in between the positives that you express to him, the compliments, praise and support), he is getting fed up (I imagine/ understand), and like a self-fulfilling prophecy.. he is becoming what you repeatedly accused him of being.

You repeatedly accused him of being a bad person underneath his positive qualities (not a true accusation)=> he gets fed up and starts acting angry and mean.. rebelling against your accusations.

The result of this complication is that Hatchling is likely to say at one point something like: See what he said/ what he did, how terrible, how horrible he is.. I KNEW IT! His behaviors prove that my suspicions were true, that it was my gut telling me the truth! (I am referring to the title of this thread).

Or the result may be that he will end the relationship before you do, if you do. The reason I say “if you do” is because (1) Hatchling’s motivation- as I suggested yesterday- is to change the alleged bad N (F) into a good N (F) and (2) Seaturtle the adult suspects that.. like the title of this thread indicates, that it is fear (and wrong thinking fueled by fear) that drives her in this relationship, not gut/ not the truth in the current situation. And therefore, Seaturtle is afraid of regretting breaking up with him.

anita