Dear Seaturtle:

“He doesn’t like to talk about emotions or feelings, I have to tiptoe around this, which is hard cause I do want to. He often feels good and ‘closer to me’ when we do talk about feelings but starting is super delicate“-

– it is super delicate for him because part of him is super hurt (his inner child). He doesn’t want to be made aware of the hurt, so he keeps it pushed down and he doesn’t want to bring it up by talking about it. But once he does (you must be very good at encouraging him to talk, and I am not surprised that you are), he feels better. It’s like a kid with a toothache who doesn’t want to go to the dentist because the treatment will hurt more… but after the dentist, the kid feels so much better,

“Interesting. I haven’t thought of my awareness coming from something ‘positive’ from ‘childhood.’ For some reason I felt it was negative childhood and positive adulthood that caused forced awareness after being made to feels so badly, so hurt you eventually start to wonder why. What do you think about this?”-

-(1) “so hurt you eventually start to wonder why“- imagine a child being so very, very hurt and so very, very alone with his hurt, that he is.. too hurt and too alone (no one there to listen and answer) to wonder why. Resigned to his questions being unanswered, he/ she stops asking. (This doesn’t seem the case with you or with N).

(2) “negative childhood and positive adulthood“- No childhood (and no adulthood) is all negative or all positive. As I see it, the positive part of your childhood is the part of your mother’s behavior toward you that made you feel seen. The positive parts of N’s childhood may be in that his father expressed to N that N was helping him feel better by talking to him and listening to N’s input; and his mother (taking this from her giving others the opportunity to win in that game you all played recently, instead of rushing to take the win herself)- let him win otherwise when he was growing up.. so both parents gave him a sense of personal power (vs weakness/ learned helplessness).

“After not speaking to my mom for a year, ages 16-17, my heart ached for her so much that I forced compartmentalized ‘my mom’ and ‘the woman who hurt my dad/family.‘ Also, living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom ‘rebelled,’… I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset…  When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together… When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dad’s home had more ‘safety’ what I really mean is consistency and routine. I would swing back and forth between my mom’s and dad’s, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to ‘like her’ again, so she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er. Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off.

“Wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other.. This is actually something I have felt was ‘wrong’ with me. It affects my work, I often get inspired by the structure of my job, then after too much I start to call out of work, stay home and paint/whatever craft I am currently inspired by. I have been fired by jobs because of this and told by two employers I take too much time off.. But I have yet to find a job I care enough about, I get to the point of not caring if they fire me cause I want a new routine anyway. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from.”-

– This is all VERY meaningful (analyzing the above quote):

“I forced compartmentalized ‘my mom’ and ‘the woman who hurt my dad/family… living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom ‘rebelled,’“-

– children naturally compartmentalize things; it is known as the all or nothing/ black and white thinking of children (this OR that, not this AND that). Some adults keep this childhood thinking as adults: it is known as the all-or-nothing/ black-and-white category of distorted thinking (another category of distorted thinking is the emotional reasoning I mentioned earlier).

For some time, according to your black-and-white thinking, Dad was Good and Mom was Bad.. But then you figured- after living with him for a while- that Dad had some bad in him and Mom therefore was not all bad (she rebelled against.. his badness)- a maturing, balanced thinking.

“I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset“- the traces of you in his house (his words: my house, not our- dad’s and daughter’s house) made him upset (“any trace of myself in ‘his’ house, he would get upset“), but having no trace of you (when you lived with your mom) also made him upset.. So his upset-ness about you living with your mom was not about love for you…

“When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together… When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dad’s home had more ‘safety’ what I really mean is consistency and routine“-

-Unfortunately, the routine in his home was not limited to gym and meals (it would have been wonderful if it was), but included those house cleaning sessions (“Every 3 months, not an exaggeration, we would have what he began to call ‘house cleaning”).. him complaining about the traces you left in his house and otherwise, accusing you of being ungrateful and of not attending to his needs for attention and affection.

“I would swing back and forth between my mom’s and dad’s, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to ‘like her’ again’“- your father wanted more of your attention and affection that was appropriate for a daughter to give her father, and your mother wanted your affection back. Both parents operating like children, wanting their daughter’s affection like children need their mother’s affection. So, you didn’t get to be a carefree child/ teenager in neither home.

“So she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er“-

– except she didn’t (couldn’t) give you the freedom to be a care-free child to a self-reliant, emotionally mature mother.

“Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off“-

– and.. no excuses for being a care-free child to an emotionally self-reliant and mature father.

“Wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other.. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from”-

– I think that what hatchling needs is to be a care-free child, an opportunity she didn’t have living with mom.. or with dad. I think that you get a taste of this freedom when you act in plays and do improvs.

Routine (at your father’s) that includes a bad routine will not promote self-discipline. No routine (at your mother’s) will not promote self-discipline either.

And now to the rest of yesterday’s first message: “This may be why I have such an intense desire to increase my awareness, because of the previous lack“- I think that in my case, my intense desire to increase my awareness since I was a teenager, perhaps since earlier.. was about my desperate need at the time to (rephrased now).. to parent my very emotionally immature mother.. to raise her, so to speak, so that she will be the mature, reliable, strong mother I needed her to be.

“What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school… She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people…“-  severely immature parents are toxic to their children. Even if and when they try to be good parents.

Your second post of yesterday: “Does hatchling need a more nurturing partner or even none at all?“- she needs to heal from her bad experience with her two emotionally immature parents. Your partner cannot provide you with this kind of healing.

“I am doing everything I can and I still feel overwhelmed by hatchling’s responses to N“- you may need professional help, quality psychotherapy. Part of it will be learning and practicing emotion regulation skills, so to lessen that Overwhelm Factor.

“But even you have said he is the perfect partner“- well, closer to perfect than most, in my estimation, from the totality of what you shared,

“so why is it so hard for me to feel safe and rested“- my answer: because outside your time acting in plays, doing improvs and certain other activities, you need more of the care-free child experience.. Hatchling needs it. She needs to feel that there is someone strong and mature that she can rely on.

N cannot be that strong and mature person for her.

“Wanting to run away now is a similar feeling to when I would want to run away from my dad”- hatchling wants to run away to a place where she can be (I am repeating myself, I know) a care free child, a state of mind possible when and where there is someone mature and strong, self-reliant and not so needy- to depend on.

Your most recent post of today: “So is the answer through the relationship?“- no, like I wrote above: the answer is outside the relationship. N is not your therapist. He couldn’t possibly be your therapist even if he was a professional therapist because the therapeutic relationship is not possible for two people who are involved with each other in a romantic (and sexual) relationship.

“I started to have this feeling about a year into the relationship but the past year has been the ‘8 months my mind hasn’t rested’ (the title of my first forum). Does ending this cycle require me to be alone with hatchling more? or to actually spend more time with N to build trust?“-

– ending this cycle aka healing requires that for as long as you stay in a relationship with N, that you completely give up on the expectation that he becomes the .. strong, mature parent that you did not have. He can not succeed in this role long-term (beyond making you feel good for a moment here and there). He is not your Answer.

Trusting him to be the parent that you need will lead to ongoing frustration on your part and on his. It’s a misplaced, inappropriate trust.. similar perhaps to.. your father’s misplaced, inappropriate trust or expectation that you will be.. the strong, mature and attentive mother that he didn’t have.

“For example, like I mentioned in my post, November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm… The next morning feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down by texting me so coldly, when I asked when we were meeting for lunch he says ‘I ate lunch at 10am lol”, like this message is such a brush off and the “lol,” like does he have zero sensitivity?'”-

-Objectively, this is what happened: you asked him: When are we meeting for lunch? and he answered: I ate lunch at 10am lol.

The rest in the quote above is how you felt/ your subjective experience: “feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down.. so coldly… such a brush off.. zero sensitivity“.

Back to what happened objectively, the way I understand it: he was hungry at 10 am so he ate. Maybe it crossed his mind that you wouldn’t like it, but he brushed it off saying to himself something like: no matter what I do or don’t, I get in trouble with Seaturtle anyway.. so I’m going to eat now.  He later inserted an lol into the text so to make light of things, so  to .. lighten up your expected heavy overreaction.

As a matter of fact, he recently told you that you were bringing him down.. down with your heavy overreactions…? Maybe he is angry at you for feeling like he has to walk on eggshells, that any little misdeed or perceived misdeed can cause a bomb to go off.

Back to your subjective experience of what happened: “feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down.. so coldly… such a brush off.. zero sensitivity“- what if you, in this incident, are expressing zero sensitivity to him: not being sensitive to how difficult it is for him to walk on eggshells?

“I do not understand this lack of empathy and sensitivity from him and this honestly just triggered another panic attack… THEN the next evening, Sunday night, he was to come over for dinner and he was an hour late! Just kicked again while I was down”-

– maybe he was an hour late because he overworked. You said that it is difficult for him not to answer calls in regard to his business. And maybe he is getting angry with you and is giving up on the idea (and your expectation) that it is possible for him to NOT trigger you.

“Honestly I literally felt like he just wanted me to be cold like his mother, but if he is going to try to put me into that box I want to be far away from him”- N is a nice, hard working young man who is being mistaken for some other person (your father). What if you are putting him into that box, the box of being cold like your father…?

“I haven’t talked to him about the CALLOUS text messages or being late, on top of everything that had just happened!” – N is not CALLOUS (but may be in the process of becoming callous with you). It’s your father who was and is CALLOUS with you. Think of this, if you will: there is a real-life universe and an alternate, or a parallel universe. Hatchling used to live in a real-life universe: her childhood, when she was a real-life child.

Currently, hatchling is living in a parallel universe where N is her father: an immature parent who is unempathetic, cold and callous.

“with love, hatchling and possibly Seaturtle in defense of her“- hatchling needed defending in that real-life universe of her childhood. But because for her (as it is for any inner child), there is no distinction between past and present, she is now living, to a great extent, in a parallel universe where N is her father. Hatchling has unfinished business with her father and she is- and has been trying for a long while-  trying to resolve this unfinished business by proxy of N (using N as a substitute for her father) by either turning her father into an empathetic, sensitive, attentive good father,  OR leaving him.. breaking up with him.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I will reply thoroughly tomorrow morning, but for now, in regard to: “Is being with N too similar to living with my father for her?“-

– She is re-experiencing her  relationship with her father while in a relationship with N ever since it became a long-enough relationship, longer than all your past relationships. It was bound to happen no matter who you’d be in a romantic relationship, once the relationship lasts long-enough and you become .. (too) attached to the man.

So, I don’t think that there is something wrong about N, as a partner for you.. it’s just that you’ve very attached to him for a long time. and this, which I just boldfaced is why you want to break up with him/ run away.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

(the boldface and italicized features in the quotes that follow are my addition): “Last nigh he met me before the play to wish me luck, he was dressed so nice and brought me flowers, I was so excited… He wished me luck and then said ‘just so you know I have to leave right after the after party for a work thing.‘ I was dumfounded, ‘are you serious? wait what do you mean you were gonna spend the night I thought?‘ .. he said he could reschedule what he had that evening and stay the night. Then he said ‘but I have to leave very early‘… I was distraught and shocked, for about 15 minutes I was trying to breathe through a complete panic attack… he didn’t THINK about us or me at all and I was clearly stating I was free Saturday… I had terribly anxious dreams and can’t see my screen through tears right now… I told him I knew it was an overreaction but I couldn’t stop it from happening… I just feel crushed… I feel so intensely triggered, like he doesn’t even care… I want to completely run away right now. I quite literally want to break up with him right now. He does not see me at all…  I am sorry for being dramatic… I feel like I cannot handle how he disconnects from me and don’t know if I can handle this relationship. It brings me to such low places that make me very depressed… It just feels like love is so painful“-

-On the surface, if one was to look at the surface alone, you feeling distraught, shocked, crushed, very depressed and caught in a complete panic attack, etc., all because your (overworking) boyfriend didn’t .. see/ understand that you wanted to spend Sat with him.. reads (using your words) like you being dramatic/ over-reacting.  Actually, no doubt that your reactions were overreactions to the real-life situation of the present (when you posted last).

But your emotional reactions were not about the present situation. Hatchling- for whom the past is the present, as there is no distinction between past & present.. and Everything is still happening NOW) was reacting to this situation which you shared about on Oct 11: “I left a dish in his sink at his house, or left my backpack downstairs, basically left any trace of myself in ‘his’ house, he would get upset. In fact, while I lived with him I went through a lot of suicidal thoughts and running away attempts… Every 3 months, not an exaggeration, we would have what he began to call ‘house cleaning‘ ..  The shoes by the door, dishes in the sink, backpack/ clothes downstairs, my messy bedroom, messy car“-

– Your father didn’t see you, but he saw  traces of you in his house (a dish, a backpack, etc.) and it upset him. What he did see of you (traces of you).. he didn’t want to see. He wanted to clean his house from.. you. Your emotional reactions then were the same as when you posted last, including wanting to run away: to end the relationship (with your father) by running away or by suicide.

Hatchling is still trying to end the relationship with her father. I think that this is what she is trying to tell you, that’s her message.

On June 29-30, in your first thread, you shared that for 8 months by that point, you’ve been wanting to .. run away (from your father): “Please help me, my mind hasn’t rested in 8 months…   I really have been having this entire debate in my head for a straight 6-8 months now and I don’t want to waste my time, I want to move on… and running away“.

It is not that love is so painful; it’s that living with your father is so painful, being rejected by him to that extent.. so painful. Hatchling is still living in your father’s house. She is still hurting, and she still wants to run away.

If you noticed, I did not address this post to hatchling. What do you (the adult. Seaturtle) think and feel about this post?

anita

Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

Good to read that the actual play went great! I read only a bit of the rest f your messages and will not be able to read attentively and reply until Sun morning, in about 13 hours from now. Take good care of hatchling, Seaturtle!

anita

Dear DC:

Yes, let us both focus on the positives, on our strength and independence and stand up to abuse and bullying (promoting the strength and independence of others). Thank you for offering your support. I accept it and will keep it in mind.. and heart.

anita

Dear Caroline:

CoNgRaTuLTiOns for your first day at your new job! I hope that the second day feels better than the first.

“Everyone is new here for me and everything is new“- with some time, everyone and everything will not be new to you anymore, and you will find some comfort in the familiarity and routines of people and things.

“I am scared of working late. It tires me. I am scared of the changes… I don’t know where to find comfort“- when you feel scared like this and you are alone, do what I just did: I hugged myself for a long moment, placed my arms around my shoulders and squeezed, and I said to myself: it’s okay. It will be okay today.

Remind yourself, when you feel scared, that feelings do change, and therefore, you will not always feel scared;  that you will be back to the good space in your head that you felt back in Oct 9 when you anticipated this new job: “I am starting next month and I know it will be hard but I am prepared for difficulties and I will take responsibility for my decision. I am sure if it’s too hard I will make it work somehow or change job in two years perhaps. But I am in a good space in my head”.

And please do vent here any time you feel like it. I would like to read from you whenever you post!

anita

Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

You are welcome and thank you for your appreciation and kind words!

“He complimented my physic, I will never forget him commenting how fit I looked in the ‘love-handle’ area while at the beach in Hawaii, I remember feeling odd about it but also satisfied that he was proud“- there was a touch of incest, covert incest, in his comment. So, you felt odd about it, a mix of odd and proud.

“Is the solution here also emotion regulation skills?”- practicing emotion regulations skills regularly makes it possible to come up with effective solutions to real-life problems. In other words, you have to lower your stress level regularly and feel confident in your ability to do so, in order to think clearly throughout the steps it takes to solve problems effectively.

“What type of therapy would you recommend?“- the type I had in 2011-13: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with a strong touch of Mindfulness.

(I am the one adding the boldface feature to the following quotes selectively):

“N is not aware that being at his parents house caused him to feel the same as when he was a child… I actually asked him this morning, how he has felt since the trip or reflected on how he felt back at his parents, and he just said ‘I enjoyed it and didn’t feel badly there this time..‘”- he said this time, meaning that at other times he felt badly… If that’s what he meant (without necessarily meaning to express it to you), then he is aware of feeling badly when in his parents’ home.

It may be that he told you that he didn’t feel badly this time because he didn’t want to talk about it yesterday’s morning.

“As I am really putting effort into how I feel and why, I have this feeling like he is not on that same path and I have a desire for him to be on it too. I want him to be aware of his feelings on that torn up path… I can’t help but crave the same self awareness“-

– it is unrealistic and unfair, really, to expect the same awareness from a person who had a different childhood from yours. Something about your childhood was positive enough to make it possible for you to have the level of awareness that you do today. Maybe he wasn’t that.. fortunate.

“My rational self, outside of the feeling, can see that he didn’t do anything wrong in the game situation…  a part of me, I am assuming hatchling, who still believes he can be nice enough to heal me”-

– Sea turtle (the adult part of you) thinks rationally, and hatchling (the young child part of you) feels and believes. CBT is effective when it comes to challenging the inner child’s emotion-led thoughts (aka emotional reasoning) and leading her into believing what is objectively true vs what she feels is true. Over time, hatchling will believe what is objectively true.

Sometimes what you believe to be true, really is objectively true; sometimes it isn’t.

“When I am in the emotion I can see it overpowering me, I can’t escape it cause I don’t yet have the tools, but I find myself searching for tools when I am in the emotion. I realize there is a lack of emotional regulation skills”- emotion regulation skills and Mindfulness skills (related terms) are the tools that you need.

“I am circling back to this, you mentioned much earlier in your last post, but it stuck with me. When you used the analogy of a fawn and her mother and abandonment = death, it got me wondering where exactly this fear of abandonment is from. These are my two hypotheses: My dad did was not really ever emotionally there. But as far as physical abandonment, he did move out… My mom was emotionally in and out…  she would get extra affectionate. But her wine self is almost like an inauthentic affection feeling .. Then when I moved out with my dad, I left her, so she didn’t abandon me?”-

– A fawn needs her mother’s physical presence and her mother to feed and protect her. Children need so much more than food and physical protection.. Children need predictable affection, approval, and gentle and clear guidance. And more. Because a child needs so much more than a fawn, and because people use elaborate languages (which makes life way more complex), there are many more ways to abandon a child than there are to abandon a fawn.

“I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad“- I didn’t know that you feel safer with your father… Would you like to elaborate on this sentence, the whole sentence?

“Are the messages sort of like realizations of the true reason hatchling is afraid…?”- the messages behind our physical sensations and emotions are simple, not at all complicated, ex., these: hunger=> need to eat; thirst=> need to drink; tired=> need to rest; scared=> need to run away or hide or fight; angry=> need to fight.

Here is what makes it complicated: when a child goes through a scary childhood, the child adapts to it so to minimize the stress level. We adapt by figuratively closing our eyes to what scares us/ minimizing awareness. Fast forward, as adults, our eyes are still closed and our awareness- blocked to one extent or another, often significantly.

anita