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anitaParticipantGood to read from you, Going Through Life. I had a big breakfast and have to get ready to leave the house, I’ll reply further in the evening!
anitaParticipantDear Alessa and Tee:
Thank you for your thoughtful messages. I am taking a mental 😊 health day for now, but will thoroughly respond in the evening.
* The first thought I had today before I turned the computer on was.. I don’t remember the wording, but it was a feeling of self worth, of okaying myself. It was/ is a precious emotional experience, one of a kind, and that’s why I am taking a break.. so to enjoy this feeling, to let it settle.
🤍 ❤️ 🙏 ❤️ 🙏 🤍 Anita
anitaParticipantDear Dave:
“It just felt to me that nothing I was doing was quite good enough – it was champagne or razorblades and not much in between… the highs were so high that I felt like a drug addict chasing the next high and forgetting about the tough parts in between… shed always say “I really want to be led and someone to share the responsibility with me” the more I did this the more it felt like it still wasn’t good enough or at her level. A bit of a vicious circle…”-
Back on Nov 6 (on this page), I talked about two concepts that explain this dynamic: Intermittent Reinforcement and Trauma Bonding. You can research these two terms, if you’d like.
Intermittent reinforcement, unlike consistent reinforcement, is what keep people addicted to using slot machines, for example. You don’t get a reward every time, you get it occasionally and unpredictably. When you do, dopamine surges (a “high”), and you keep playing for the next “high”. In abusive or toxic relationships, one partner positively rewards the other occasionally, unpredictably and that creates a “high” that keeps the partner hooked.
In a relationship like yours, when one partner is repeatedly cold/ disapproving/ critical and then- occasionally, unpredictably- rewards you with spending the night together, or telling you she still loves you- it’s the unpredictability of the positive reward that feels like an intense “high” and reinforces the emotional attachment/ bonding on the part of the victim of this dynamic.
From a source online: “Trauma bonding is a strong emotional attachment formed between a victim and an abuser, often through cycles of abuse and intermittent kindness. The unpredictability of affection or approval creates a powerful dependency. Victims often feel that if they just ‘try harder,’ they’ll get the reward (love, safety, validation) again. The victim may confuse abuse with love, rationalize harmful behavior, or feel unable to leave. Intermittent reinforcement is the psychological engine behind trauma bonding.”
Back to your words, Dave: “Not to be rude, but since when did she get to decide what the level should be and if I am or not good enough. The only person who should be able to dictate this is me… I have moved quite a bit of my stuff back into my old house and I have a renewed sense of hope and an overwhelming feeling of ‘I’ve got this!’ as I embark on this new journey. So much more equipped for what is needed and who I am meant to be moving forward. All in all the only person who can dictate if I am good enough is me!”-
Excellent thinking, Dave 🤞 My advice: beware of the addiction factor and the possibility, maybe likelihood of the next positive reward that may feel like.. the best thing in the world. On her part, she may be hooked on feeling superior to you and on keeping you hooked.. If she loses your interest completely, who would she feel superior in relation to?
Let’s say she does lose your romantic interest completely.. it’s not unthinkable that her next partner will also be.. not good-enough.
May the force be with you (a Star Wars saying 😊),Dave.
🤍 Anita
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning, just in case there’ll be details, Alessa
Dear Tee:
I am getting close to no longer discussing her. I have been gathering, thanks to your input, Tee, a 3-D understanding of her, the most powerful person in my life, the mother I was born to, or through.
I am getting ready to move on to something new, something exciting; a new, fresh breath of air, turning my eyes, my attention elsewhere. And not looking back, no longer held hostage by the past I’ve known.
There’s no one I loved more, no one I kept waiting for as much or as long as I’ve been waiting, waiting, waiting for her to be what I needed.
It makes me smile right now, the sweet feeling about what I’ve been forever waiting for (words are inadequate to describe what it is that I’ve been waiting for).
I’ve been waiting- six decades of waiting- to feel okay inside me. Like the title of the movie, “Waiting to Exhale.”
Waiting to feel calm inside.
I waited for her to.. love me like a mother is supposed to love her daughter. I say “supposed”- not something I read, something I instinctually needed: a place to rest.
A place to rest in a mother.
Peace, safety, calm enough to exhale.
I didn’t get the opportunity to rest in a mother.
I didn’t get the opportunity to feel safe with a mother.
All the love I had for her.. That was me needing her to love me.
If I could mother her, I would have, so that she could love me.
She was Everything to me, but to her, I was (her words), “A Nothing”, “A Nobody”, “A big Zero”.
If I confronted her about these words, she’d deny, reinterpret and blame me for daring to repeat her words.
Don’t matter, never a win for me.
Don’t care anymore about what she said, what she might say-
Why should I care..?
The 3-D understanding of her: a good little girl trapped in the evil she experienced AND perpetuated.
Not a unique story but.. business as usual in too much of our troubled world.
She felt so powerless, so much of “A Nothing”, “A Nobody”, “A Big Zero”, that the relief she got was when saying these things to me.
The story of Abuse, an ongoing story.. Just pass on the abuse, and you’d feel better, for a little while, business as usual.
Nothing wrong in saying or doing anything to “A Nobody”, to “A Nothing”, to “A big Zero”, is there??? If it’s a Nobody then..
Isn’t this what dehumanizing is all about? The Nazis dehumanizing the Jews, the European Jews (Ashkenazi’s) dehumanizing North African/ middle easter Jews (Mizrachi’s), my mother dehumanizing me..?
As to the sexual abuse.. why, that’s a Nothing when done to a Nothing/ a Nobody.
A child being a sexual object for a parent: a father (more publicity about that happening, more overtly), or a mother (less publicity, more covert, perhaps)- Think of an adult parent lonely, deprived, desiring something sexual.. and there’s no one there but the child.. the only thing there.. What do you do with the desire?
Please don’t get me wrong: I know how WRONG it is to sexually abuse a child. Majorly Wrong.
But to the sexually abusing “parent”.. It’s no big deal.
.. Her choosing me to experience being a Somebody in comparison, to feel a thrill of control, a covert sexual thrill (or overt?) Again, that’s nothing personal, not an indication of who I am, of my worth. Nothing to do with me as a person.. Just me happening to be there, not by choice.
How to save the many thousands of children right now, this very Mon night, being the subjects of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual? WHAT CAN I DO???
.. Anita
anitaParticipantHi again, Alessa:
Thank you for all your good wishes! I will tell you about Thanksgiving on Thurs night or on Friday, the day after.
Since it’s the details, not the topic of SA that triggers you, I will post an SA Trigger Warning only where and when I discuss details.
You asked me if there’s something you can do for me.. Well, try to relax best you can when you communicate with me and if you have concerns or question- let me know. I don’t want to be misinterpreted, or misunderstood.
I am okay with you asking me questions.. Asking questions and receiving answers is part of connecting 😊
I read all your posts and I know that certain things you don’t want to talk about on a public forum so I know what not to ask you.
I hope that you are breathing okay as I am typing this and that you are enjoying some restful sleep this very early Tues morning (for you, early Mon afternoon/ evening here and totally dark outside.
🌙 ❤️ Anita
anitaParticipantHi Alessa: I will reply in a few hours, I hope you have a restful night.
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
“It occurred to me that the way she was bathing you (scrubbing your head to the point of pain, as well as inappropriately touching you) might also have been a form of revenge and punishment for perceived (or real) humiliation that she’d experienced as a child.”-
It makes sense, yes.
But also, one of her personality disorders was Obsessive Compulsive. She didn’t let me wash myself because she was bothered by the idea that I will not do a thorough, perfect job.. Just as she wouldn’t let me wash dishes or clean anything in the apartment, she didn’t trust me to do a thorough, perfect job.
She scrubbed my body hard just as she scrubbed any item in the apartment.
Later in life her OCPD eased as she said herself: “I was stupid to care so much about perfect cleanliness.. Why was it so important?” (paraphrased).
And yes, I was an item to be cleaned.
I think that she resented doing all that hard work, cleaning everything. I think that she wished she didn’t have to, and cleaning me was a chore she wouldn’t have to do if she was rich and had a maid.
“It could be that she felt humiliated – not necessarily by her father abandoning her, but perhaps by what happened in the orphanage (has she shared anything about that?), or by severe beatings at the hand of her oldest sister. She might have felt not only helpless but also humiliated by that, but you said she’d never expressed anger towards her sister.”-
No doubt she had very humiliating experiences growing up, or.. growing-ashamed my be a more accurate term. I misspoke about her not expressing anger at her oldest sister.. I don’t remember her confronting her oldest sister (I’ll refer to her as M), but I know that for a while she wouldn’t talk to M, as in a no-contact, because she was angry at her, she realized at that time that M really, really did hurt her.
But after some time she went back to talking with her. It’s like part of her was M. M was an overt aggressor, consistently, no meek/ people pleasing performances; the mother switched between being M and performing meek/ people pleasing- unlike M- in between returns to being the overt aggressor that M was.
“However, the intense sense of shame and humiliation (and anger) hasn’t just disappeared. And so she was expressing it to you, with whom she felt safe to express anger and to shame you as much as she pleases. So I’m thinking that this entire ritual of bathing you beyond appropriate age might have been a way to revenge for the humiliation she’d experienced as a child.”-
Yes. I think she sometimes turned into her oldest sister. I think that M was her No 1 Abuser.
“It also had sexual connotations, and so I’m wondering whether she was sexually abused (e.g. inappropriately touched) in the orphanage? Has she ever shared anything about that period of her life?”-
Not that I remember. If she did, it was very little.. Wait, how could I forget.. It was in the orphanage (she insisted calling it “institution”, not orphanage) that she lost all her hair- forevermore- as a result of an untreated scalp fungus infection. A shame she carried with her throughout her life.. cutting her head off photos.
And it occurred to me just now.. for the first time in my whole life, why she scrubbed my scalp so terribly deep and rough.. because I had hair and she didn’t..?
I didn’t know she had no hair until I was 26 or 27. She wore wigs the whole time. I just didn’t know until .. was it my sister who told me (I don’t remember). I was in shock at the time, that for a quarter of a century, I didn’t know.
“Alternatively, sexual connotations might also have to do with her obsession with sexuality, which we’ve talked about, and sort of punishing you (as a representative of all women) for ‘stealing’ her father away. Of course, this is pure speculation, I’m just throwing some ideas around, in case it resonates..”-
I remember that the last thing I wanted to do or be- was a woman. Not that I wanted to be a man.. but I definitely didn’t want to be a woman. A genderless doll is more like what she’d approve of.. Just like the dolls she gave me as gifts.
“Possibly. Though she seemed not to have been too upset when you were leaving to the U.S. I actually wanted to ask you about how she reacted to your leaving. You said she was touching your hand softly before your departure, so I assumed she expressed support. But was she okay with you leaving? May I ask how she reacted later, when the marriage was annulled and you returned home for a brief period?”-
Good point, Tee. She wasn’t upset at all about me leaving, and again, it never occurred to me that indeed she wasn’t upset. Sincerely, truthfully.. I was never a person to her, never of a human value, one she’d miss.. I was just a thing, a doll that messed up and turned into the unacceptable.. woman form (not by choice.. it just happened to the body I was ashamed of). But in her mind, seems to me, turning woman meant betrayal.
When I returned in 1986 from New Orleans.. I don’t think there was any discussion of what happened with the short-term husband of sorts. Why would there be..? For her to be curious about a Thing’s inner life or personal experiences? It’d be like looking at a plastic doll, an object made to resemble the appearance of a human, and wondering about the doll’s (non-existing) thoughts, feelings and life experiences).
“Oh I see. So, your sister got to socialize with other children from an early age (and your mother spent less time with her during the first years of her life). Unlike with you, when she was a stay-at-home mom, and you spent your entire time with her, up to your elementary school. It seems your mother didn’t even try to establish total control over your sister like she did with you.”- not physically, as in washing, feeding, wiping and dressing her. (Not necessarily in that order.. sad lol).
“You said she claimed your sister was more independent, so perhaps that played a role too. But she didn’t even try, or didn’t have the opportunity to instill complete control (including physical/bodily control) over your sister. However, she clearly managed to establish emotional control over her, since your sister believed she was a whore… And she also did whatever your mother told her to do… So, she was emotionally ‘enslaved’ (i.e. strongly enmeshed) with your mother, even though her body was free from your mother’s intrusions. Eventually, you left home to get some distance from your mother’s abuse. But your sister stayed and I imagine continued receiving abuse?”-
For the longest time I felt so guilty for leaving because when I did, she turned all her attention to my sister and literally told her to give her a child “Give me a grandchild” is what she told her. She said: “You are a great disappointment, the least you can do (to compensate me) is to give me a grandchild”. Nine months later, my sister gave her what she demanded.
Oh, did I mention the mother told her to marry a particular young man, a bad fit (just because he was blond and had blue or green eyes from a country in north Europe).. so, she did.
(The plot thickens, doesn’t it, Tee?)
“Oh, I didn’t know there used to be a special category called Sadistic Personality Disorder in the DSM, which was later replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder.
“Yeah, sadism and APD do overlap, but they aren’t the same. APD is more typical for criminals, people who disregard rules and social norms. It can also be an obnoxious neighbor who is making noise in the middle of the night, disregarding the fact that it disturbs people who live in the same apartment building.”-
I had a neighbor like that when I last lived in an apartment building, back in early 2014. She used to use her vacuum cleaner at 3 am. When I told her it was disturbing my sleep, she told me that I was disturbing her sleep turning my vacuum clear or what not (during the day). I used to think of her as “the neighbor from hell)”
“Whereas sadism doesn’t even need to include criminal behavior, and yet can be very hurtful. I’m thinking now that making pranks on people can also be a form of sadism – enjoying seeing when someone gets hurt physically, or embarrassed/humiliated (i.e. hurt emotionally).”- Yes, I agree.
“And yes, your mother enjoyed when you (and others whom she’d shamed and humiliated) would get hurt emotionally, or even physically (when she would scrub your head to the point of pain, or when she would slap you on the face multiple times ’till her hands hurt’).”-
Yes, she enjoyed it. I just “heard” her say, accusatorily, angrily: “Well, there wasn’t anything else for me to enjoy, how dare you take away my only little thing to enjoy?) You bad, bad.. you!!!”
“Yes, that’s a very good observation: her disregard for and violation of your rights. By bathing you inappropriately, she was actually violating your rights (e.g. the right to bodily autonomy, or however it is called). And I believe she would have been held accountable for that – had the authorities known about it.”-
The authorities that didn’t protect her from her oldest sister.. the authorities that didn’t treat her scalp condition in the Institution.
“It occurs to me that she glorified, or at least excused criminals (both in real life and on film). Which means that she didn’t have a huge problem with criminal, antisocial behavior. It wasn’t morally objectionable to her, but she didn’t practice it so not to have problems with the law.”-
Well, in a different society, she would have been arrested for assault (and attempted battery) of the music teacher.. Disturbing the peace, etc… child Abuse (for the endless verbal and physical assault that the neighbors could hear).
But I have no memory at all of any authorities. I understand that things are somewhat improved back there.
“She also was aware that being more physically abusive with you (akin to breaking your bones) would have gotten her in trouble with the authorities. So she restrained herself – not because it was the right thing to do, but because she didn’t want to get caught.’-
Yes, although I’m surprised anyone back then got in trouble for breaking a child’s bones..?
Thing is, yes, she had no ethical sense within her, that is.. When she told me: “You think I am stupid, I wouldn’t break your bones!”, what had upset her was not at all that breaking my bones would be the wrong thing to do, but that I would think of her as “stupid”.
She said: “You think that I don’t know that I am wrong (about the way she treated me), I do know, but what can you do about it, you have nowhere to go)-
it’s not that she was acknowledging being wrong.. she’d never say she was wrong about anything (my sister would confirm it 100%, and she did), what was behind what she said was: “I am not stupid (one of her concerns)”. There was no looking-within, it was just.. I AM NOT STUPID and how dare you think I am!
“Anyway, she definitely violated your rights, and for some of those violations, she would have been prosecuted, I believe..”- I would retroactively resurrect a non-existing authority. I still wonder if any parent was held responsible for anything back then.
“Okay, I’ve just refreshed the forums and saw your latest post. My goodness, Anita, that’s pretty serious stuff. It could have been that she would have been charged on more accounts than I thought 😕 😢… I’m very sorry that all this happened to you. But also glad that, as you say, talking about it now and understanding it is bringing you liberation and healing. ❤️ 🙏
“And no, it’s not too much for me. It is tough, it’s painful even to listen to (and I can imagine how painful it is to you), but I’m glad that you can look at some of those dark places and bring light and healing to them. I just hope it’s not too much for you?”-
– No, it’s not too much for me. Holding all this in, unprocessed, or inadequately processed, suppressing memories and emotions had been too much for me.
But because of you (and I can’t reiterate it enough), I am healing, my healing process is accelerated.
I like your use of 😕, the puzzled face emoji that as far as I remember, I introduced it to you 🙂.
Forever grateful, Tee. you are my hero!
❤️ 🙏 🙏 🙏 ❤️, Anita
anitaParticipant* I meant “gone up” (just one up 🙂)
anitaParticipantDear Going Through Life:
I think that it’s admirable that you did some house chores even though you were in pain and that you noticed something positive in all of this: that your pain tolerance has gone up up.
I also hope that the fact that you were able to do house chores mean that the injury was not more than bruising that will get better with time.
I read that for bruising, the following in-home care helps: Ice Therapy- applying a cold pack or wrapped ice to the bruise for 10–20 minutes at a time, several times a day during the first 48 hours. This reduces pain and swelling,
Compression- lightly wrapping the area with an elastic bandage if swelling is present, but not making it too tight,
As well as Resting. (No more house chores for a while..?)
Thank you for your appreciation, GTL, I appreciate you as well 🙏
And please let me know how your shoulder is doing and what a medical professional says about it after a scan..?
🤍 Anita
anitaParticipantHi Alessa:
Good evening to you (morning here.. the sun just appeared for the first time)
As to your yesterday’s message:
In regard to the SA Trigger Warning- for you, is it needed whenever the topic of sexual abused is mentioned or only when details of such abuse are mentioned?
Thank you for bringing up the connection between a person suffering sexual abuse at a young age, sometimes going on to perpetrate the same abuse (no worries about bringing it up 😊)
I agree, people tend to not even imagine, or consider that mothers can do such things.. It doesn’t fit the Mother Myth.
I read about the similarities between what we experienced with our mothers and I understand that it difficult for you to know what to say and stay present when such a topic is brought up, and it’s okay if we don’t talk about the topic at all.
So, I will not mention the topic in this thread, and I will comment on it only if you bring it up. Will this be right by you?
One more question motivated by me wanting to accommodate you: normally, I would quote a person’s words and respond, it’s a conversation style thing, but I read before that you don’t like to be quoted. Is it so? If it is, I can continue to respond like I did in this post, no quoting of your words. Please let me know.
As to your most recent post: yes, I slept pretty well last night. I was up a few times but didn’t stay up for long each time, that’s an improvement!
Thank you, Alessa and please be gentle with yourself as well 🙏❤️🙏
🌿🤍🍃 Anita
anitaParticipantDear Going Through Life:
I am sorry you fell and hurt your shoulder! I hope that the pain is because of bruising alone and that the scan reveals no injury beyond the bruising. When will you be having the scan.. and why would your parents be very angry?
Yesterday, as I read your posts about feeling good during the trip and going back home, the thought occurred to me that your mood will change when you get home because the feeling good was about leaving home and going on an adventure and.. what goes up, must come down, as the saying goes.
“What would you have done in my shoes dear friend. Life and God are being cruel to me at the moment.”-
First thing, don’t be cruel to GTL, especially when life is being cruel to you. Be the opposite, be kind to yourself. If your thoughts are being cruel to you, change them. How’s that for a start?
🤍 Anita
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning
Dear Tee:
At first this morning (before getting to the computer), I thought to myself that I wished to end our conversation and exploration in regard to her and what happened with her. Next, as I turned on the computer and saw your relatively short message and was concerned, thinking that you are withdrawing from our conversation, particularly when I read the 2nd paragraph about you not necessarily being able to help me. But when I read the last paragraph about continuing our conversation, I felt better.
“how are you feeling today? ❤️”- First, I would like to continue our conversation and not end it just because it got.. well, the word that occurred to me just now was that it got “dirty”, or “nasty”.
Second, I feel better than yesterday. I feel a renewed hope of further healing. I feel like going through- emotionally- what I need to go through. I slept better last night.
* As I just wrote “slept” right above, I felt like it could be thought to be referring to something sexual (because it implies lying in bed, I suppose), same as earlier in this message when I wrote “I felt relieved”, then thought “relieved” could be misinterpreted as something sexual, and therefore I changed it to “I felt better”.
“That was a pretty shattering revelation yesterday, and I can imagine it caused all sorts of emotions in you, including a part of you not believing that it really happened.”- yes, and a feeling of being.. dirty. And a feeling of hope.
“I myself am quite taken aback by these new revelations. You’ve asked if it’s too much for me. It’s not too much for me to hear it and empathize with you, however I might not be necessarily able to help you process it in the best way, since I’m not a trauma therapist. So my ‘skills’ may not be enough in this particular case.”-
This is what I wrote to you late last night in a post I did not submit to you: “You’ve been giving your time and attention to countless tiny buddha members in these forums for years! Your time, attention, superior intelligence and unending generosity have paid off when it comes to me, in practical terms. No one bothered to pay attention to my words, my story.. And then came you.”.
I’ve seen four therapists in my life, don’t think either one was a trauma therapist. The first did nothing but listen or appearing to listen, but wouldn’t say a thing, even when I asked him to say something. The fourth was the most helpful and the one I saw for the longest time. And yet, in my ongoing conversation with you I revealed the most and you have helped me more than any therapist did.
You are not just a person appearing from nowhere, you’ve been in these forums for years and I read each and every one of your posts over the years, and following your forgiveness and returning to communicating with me, my pervasive suspicion and distrust of people turned into trusting you, and this trust makes my healing with you possible.
“I’m just saying this to let you know that I would like to keep supporting you, however I wouldn’t like to cause more harm than good.”- You are very responsible for bringing this up, reminding me that you are not a trauma therapist and that you wouldn’t like to cause harm. Thank you for that!
I trust you to not cause harm and I know that no one’s perfect (including the therapists I did see), but.. sincerely, I can’t think of anyone more perfect than you for this kind of discussion and exploration.
“Dear Anita, it’s normal that we as children and beyond suppress things that were very painful, because that’s how we protect our psyche from being overwhelmed. Perhaps now you feel strong enough to take it on, to look at it, process it and start healing from it?”-
Yes, dear Tee, I do feel strong enough to take it on (but I keep having these sexual interpretation of my words after I type them, as in “take it on” meaning something sexual)
“It’s certainly very painful to be faced with that kind of betrayal by your own mother. There are no excuses for her behavior. The only ‘excuse’ (which doesn’t exculpate her in any way) is that she might have been sexually abused herself as a child. Alessa made a good point about it: ‘there is a link between people being sexually abused at a young age and then going on to perform the same behaviour themselves. Of course, not everyone does. But for some people who cannot accept their abuse seek to normalize it.'”- I suspected long ago that she was sexually abused as a child or adolescent.
“So it’s possible that she went through something similar and ‘acted out’ on you. But of course, this doesn’t excuse her and doesn’t diminish the incredible pain that she’s caused you. Regardless of what her reasons might have been, you have been abused and hurt, and you need to go through a healing process. You need to have empathy for yourself, not her.
“I’m waiting for your input today, hoping you’re feeling not too overwhelmed and that we can continue our conversation, if you find it’s helping you at this point ❤️”- Yes, please, let’s continue!
After I submit this post, I plan on responding to your yesterday’s post.
❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
anitaParticipantYou are welcome, Going Through Life. I am glad you are finally back home 🏠
.. Going through life along with you 🙂, Anita
anitaParticipantThank you, Alessa. No worries- you’re good at talking about this and your input is welcomed!
I will continue to add the SA Trigger Warning.
I am not very focused.. What a day! What earth-shattering revelations for me.
It’s early afternoon here, but more than 8 hours of being awake.
I don’t intend to be back to the computer in the next 8-10 hours.
I hope you sleep well, Alessa ❤️
Anita
anitaParticipantNo worries, dear Going Through Life, photos are quite googable, although it would have been special to see exactly what you saw.
🙏 Anita
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Though I run this site, it is not mine. It's ours. It's not about me. It's about us. Your stories and your wisdom are just as meaningful as mine. 