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CarolineParticipant
Hello Tee,
Thanks for the welcoming! I have not posted in some time, that’s true.
Wow, what you described sound very accurate to what I am feeling. Thank you so much for this!
I knew there was something with this obsession, something not directly related to her, but still.. but not quite.
“you didn’t even know if you were dating or you were just hooking up. Am I assuming this right?” Yes that is correct. This was so stupid.. She even told me she was in love with me, and I think I told her this too. But it was so weird, she had some issues with ex girlfriend who found out about me and our “relationship” was not longer a fairy tale, we hurt someone else and then we hurt each other. She once called me her girlfriend but I did not even react, I think I did not see this text and when I did it was couple days later.. I think this all comes back to me because it was not processed at the time. I drank and did not want to face those feelings, and now they came back.
I know you did not say it wasn’t love, but.. do you think it wasn’t?
“Well, I believe that even if you loved her, this love wasn’t expressed as it should have been, because it was never communicated properly, and then you cheated on her.” It made me sad to read this but..it’s true.
It is true that something is lacking in my life right now, I am calm and things are in order but there is no romance, spontaneous meetings, happiness. It’s more like adult life. Routine. Is it bad?
I don’t think I should look for an excitement. Maybe I am just bored and this is all wrong, my thoughts and feelings now.
Or should I.
CarolineParticipantHello Roberta,
Thank you for the advice. I will check out the Eckart Tolle.
I think I too, do not want to revisit this relationship. I think I am having an obsession, and she happens to be this obsession, for some reason.
“Also how hurt do you think your current girlfriend would be if she found out” – I have no idea, to be honest. Probably she would feel hurt. But as much as I care about her feelings and do not want to hurt her, this does not help me in any way… for me to stop obsessing, unfortunately. I wish it would work like that.
“mental infidelity often comes before the physical action)” – so does this mean it is very likely for me to cheat after “mental infidelity”?
CarolineParticipanthello Anita
Firstly I would like to thank you for your precious advise and apologize for not responding earlier.I want you to know I have read this at the time and changed my behavior and expectations toward myself a bit.
“neither she, nor you, Caroline, should expect yourself to talk as much as she does. It is not your job or your duty to match how much she- or anyone else- talks.”
“offer your acceptance of- and respect- for yourself: it’s a precious thing to offer!”
I thought you were right, because if we ever have an argument or she will see I am not as cheerful as she thought I was (I can “pretend” but she will eventually see it and find me boring or something) it may be a problem. So better I act how I really am – not speaking much, being rather calm, not excited – if she accepts me and respects it, it will be better for our (work) relationship in the future. Right? And she will respect me for having my own personality and not pretending. AND I feel better about myself too -not pressured into pretending someone I am not.
“Let’s say, she calls you and you feel angry at her (for no valid reason, or you are not aware of the reason you feel angry)- in this case, if I was you, I would contain my anger and not express it.” -That’s a good advise, very thoughtful to behave like this. Thank You Anita.
Merry Christmas!
CarolineParticipant“The word fraud means to deceive someone: to intentionally present yourself not as you are, so to deceive someone. Being afraid of being seen as boring… how is it connected to fraud?”
When I am around my colleagues I pretend to be energetic and fun. The girl I work with, she is younger and very optimistic, she talks a lot. I think I may seem boring and dull compared to her/them. Every time she calls me (we work in home office so the only contact is chat or calls) I prepare myself to sound happy when in reality I am very calm. She even said to me “You do not talk much” when both of them do… Unfortunately I often do not have ideas on what to say.
One time I called the guy we work with and he also seemed very calm while not in a group of people. But he has interesting stories to tell, he has experience, travelled… She, on the other hand, played in a band, lives near mountains so she shows us beautiful pictures.
I worry they will see I do not have much to offer.
CarolineParticipantHello Anita,
I have been writing this twice since last week, refreshed the page and lost the text.. and then it happened again.
“the weather here has been so pleasantly unusual for this time of the year: sunny, bright blue skies, it’s a mood elevator.”
When it is so gloomy outside and I almost forget how sunny it can be, there’s always this one beautiful, sunny day and it makes everything better.
“And all along, perfections has been impossible: impossible for me as well as for any other human being.” – I admire how kind you are, Anita, to others, to yourself. Yes, now I remember and more and more often I tell myself to be kind.. to myself.
“what kinds of thoughts in regard to being a fraud did you have lately, and in what circumstances, if I may ask?” – it regards mostly work and my colleagues. They are so creative, fun, tell a lot of interesting stories, have hobbies. I started listening more ambitious music. They inspire me but I also have this fear of seem boring to them.
CarolineParticipantAnita, I wanted to say I was thinking a lot about our talks lately and that I am very grateful we have those here. Again thank you for this and for reaching out.
you don’t have to be very careful here: you can type your words for me without much care because I will not punish you for wrong wording.
That is very kind. Of course, I would never think you would be angry or disappointed with my bad wording, yet I do not want to seem like I miss any of your valuable thoughts.
hating yourself is not kind. Whenever you feel hate for yourself, turn to empathy.
I still fail to be kind to myself. I think about that you wrote and then I forget to use it in life. Still thinking about myself as a fraud. I think I need time.
I feel less passive in general, though, more grounded. Learning to have my opinion, to be critical.
How are you, Anita?
CarolineParticipantHello Anita, I am Ok. I saw your message yesterday and still thinking, looking for right words. I decided to just reply. Thank you for checking up on me. It has been okay mostly. I visited one of my colleague recently, had a really good time (she lives in another city).
I am trying to learn how to have healthy relationships with people but it always ends with me feeling used or taken advantage of.. and being angry or them leaving me for some reason. (I see this pattern with my mom’s friendships, relationships, also people in my family have let me down several times. I grew up in hostile environment – family, school etc). It now has led me to distrusting people at the very beginnings of knowing them which I hate myself for. So it has been tough as well.
CarolineParticipantTee,
thanks for explaining, good to know it happens here 🙂
You go to work every day, which is productive… don’t count that as nothing
You are right!
Thank you for responding, good to hear from you.
Take care 🙂
CarolineParticipantAnita,
Good to hear from you too.
Sorry about the biiiiig smiley face! If it made you smile back – then I am happy too but no idea how this happened to be this big, ha ha 🙂
no pressure=> no displeasure. Remember this… and practice NP (No Pressure!)
This will be my motto for many days now 🙂
Have a great day! (or night, depends on what is your time zone)
CarolineParticipantAnita,
Dear Caroline:
When you encounter certain distressing real life circumstances, the old thinking will automatically return. You will have to repeat the new perspective and new thinking until these become your new habit.
Understood. I need to practice new way of thinking and responding. I already behaved in non-passive way several times, maybe it’s not a lot but I know something has changed in me. I want to be more brave.
Today my coworker told me that yesterday there was an argument and an outburst of anger of the abusive person in our team, the ex-friend of mine. The other girl who works here says it is becoming a problem and that “he would destroy everyone and he is a sociopath”. I know that on our next weekly meeting he will “perform” as usual (talk in specific way – like an actor, show off, laugh at people, curse – he would usually talk like that for 40minutes while we all listen) and it is becoming a problem indeed that we all passively listen and allow this – along with our manager (he is passive too).
I know I probably won’t win this… or maybe I should believe I will. Already a couple of people left this job because of his behavior. None of us have an option of a new job yet. I want to call him out and stop his “showing off”, do something, stop being passive – because passive means accepting.
I know that you deserve kindness!
Thank you, Anita. It changed a lot since I allow myself to feel that I feel, to rest, even if that means watching low quality tv shows. I noticed since I do not pressure myself to do something creative, I have more pleasure spending the day whichever way I choose.
Tee,
Yes, it does help with grounding. The more grounded you are, the less chance that your nervous system will go automatically into dissociation. It’s like creating new neural pathways, which enable you to stay more present… Anyway, try it and let us know how it went…
I have not had a lot of time to spend in the nature this week but I am planning to do it tomorrow: to go to the park, take some pictures and rest.
Sometimes you’ll feel great about yourself, the next day you’ll feel like you’re back in the old patterns. Throughout it all, it’s important that you have compassion for yourself and are patient with yourself. If you haven’t succeeded to respond the way you wanted today, you can try again next time. Patience, self-compassion and taking small steps… I think those are key to progress.
Great point. I will remember that. Being kind to myself.
don’t be harsh on yourself if you sometimes end up binge watching on those TV shows… What you can do is you might limit the time you spend watching those shows, say instead of the entire afternoon and evening, you tell yourself that you’ll spend max 2 hours in front of the TV. So you make a compromise with yourself: a little bit of your favorite TV show, and a little bit of something else, which is a healthier/more nurturing type of relaxation. So no one loses and everyone wins
I am trying to put it into practice. Unfortunately I ended up not doing anything productive this week but I what I did is took a bike few times to go to the supermarket and thus spent some active quality time, so.. I am working on it.
CarolineParticipantAnita, this, what you wrote,
I don’t see how it is a part of the freeze response. I think that it’s a way to calm yourself down from the day’s stress, a way to regulate your emotions. Doing some of this is healthy.
if other people are less stressed than you, then they are less exhausted and drained and therefore, they have energy left to be creative. They are fortunate for having had a healthier childhood than yours one that allows them more energy. Don’t criticize yourself for not having been as fortunate as them. Have empathy for yourself instead. The more empathy you extend toward yourself, the less stress you will experience and the less need you will have to distract yourself from the stress in front of the TV.
.. that really changes my whole perspective and thinking about this. For years I was blaming myself for wasting time and not being creative, forcing myself to spend quality time.
Anita, you write it all so easily. It really changes everything, in fact when I was afraid to state my boundaries and tell what I needed to say to my ex friend, You just responded “It is not that bad” (among other things of course). So simple and true.
I wish I could do the same.
I will be more kind to myself.
CarolineParticipantAnita,
Good to hear from you. I am sorry I took more time to respond.
The people-pleasing, submissive person is not the real you, it is how you adjusted the real you so to manage certain unfortunate circumstances. Being assertive and valuing yourself is the real you.
I want to and I do believe that.
(1) “they seem and look like important people“- imagine these important/ superior looking people in situations that they really experience every day, situations where they don’t look or sound… or feel superior, such as when they suffer from intestinal gas or when they step on the scale and can’t see their feet, (2) “thinking I was incompetent“- think about the important-looking people in the meeting: they are currently incompetent in some ways, and in all the ways they are now competent, they used to be incompetent.
What I did right above is correcting limited or distorted thinking so to make it more balanced and true to reality.
Thank you Anita, I think I see this more clearly that I assume a lot and it’s wrong. One time my colleague mentioned that those “important people” (sorry I call them like that, just I prefer to not use their work titles or names) said something about me on another meeting that I was doing this project and it sounded like they almost… did not care to comment on me personally, just mentioned some information I sent them. I think I really do assume too much, that people judge or comment on me, my personality when in fact most of the time they do not focus on that. I am learning to see it more clearly now and to remember this more often.
Everyday I am learning to unfreeze. Yesterday on the meeting someone accused me of not sending something and I right away said that I did, and that my version is somewhere in the e-mail. I repeated that again 3 times, did not argue but politely defended myself in response to what they “accused me” of. Normally I would just sit quiet and not respond, silently agreeing even if someone would not tell the truth. But this time I was really trying to analyze what was going on, that someone is trying to convince me of something and I wanted to not be passive, to not freeze. It is difficult and may sound weird but this is what I am learning now. It is not going fantastic but I am trying.
I still have those days (like today) when I just spend all day watching trashy tv shows, or youtube channels, just wasting my time. I think it’s part of the freeze response. After I have stressful day I usually just sit on the couch until it’s late and then go to sleep, being passive, not “living” for the rest of the day. I want to fight it but it’s hard. I think this would be great obstacle – my freezing for the whole afternoon/evening which happens almost every day and I need to change that. I noticed I am not creative at all compared to other people and it is hard for me to focus on any hobby besides passive watching non quality shows or videos. Sometimes this is all I do all week after work but I am aware and want to change it.
Tee,
Congratulations on these amazing developments!
Thank you, I have still a lot to do and fix about me.
This “delay” in reaction can also be explained by disassociation. You don’t notice it immediately because you’re not fully present, you’re not fully observing what’s going on, while it is going on. Only later, in the safety of your home, you sort of “unfreeze” and start realizing what has really happened and that you might have failed to react… Do you think that this is what’s going on?
Yes, I noticed that long time ago, but did not quite understand that. Even when my ex-friend was here and he scolded me about my cancelling plans and not listening to him, my first response was that I did not know what to say, I think I did not fully comprehend what was going on. Part of things I wanted to tell him I did, but it was a week later that I thought it through, talked here on this forum to Anita and made sure what happened. So yes, that is what is happening not only in threat situations but also when talking to people with no possible threat. I am trying to remember this to stay active more and more often during the day.
Walking in nature also helps a lot in staying present and grounded. To practice being grounded during your walks, you can put your attention on your feet as they are touching the ground.
The idea is to try to engage all of your senses. If you’re alone on your walks, you can even name out loud the things that you see and the sounds that you hear. That’s how you can further strengthen the sense of being grounded and present in the here-and-now.
If this helps then I will practice that more. It gives me motivation to change my destructive daily routine, be more creative.
So good to hear this! It sure does feel good to be respected, but also to have self-respect. You are making a lot of progress on that path and I am very happy for you!
Thank you to both of you, Anita and Tee for giving your time and effort. Take care.
CarolineParticipantAnita,
it’s about letting the person we fear at the moment know that we accept their superiority so that they calm down and lose the motivation to show us via actual aggression (hurting us in some way) that they are indeed superior to us.
– Now I will be more mindful and try to notice those situations in every day life.
What you used to refer to as friendship with this work colleague was really a dominance hierarchy relationship, wasn’t it?
-I think it was indeed. Observing his behavior at the pizzeria I clearly saw this need for dominance and superiority even over his manager. I know he needs people who act like I used to act and he will find some other.
Fake it till you make it is a principle and a practice taught in psychotherapy. Pretending in the context of emotional healing and learning of new, healthy behaviors, is a good thing (not a bad thing). My excellent therapist at the time taught me this. So, please do pretend, do fake it… until you make it (which means, until the new behaviors feel natural
I will do that! Feels strange and “fake” but also powerful. I am pretending the person I would like to be, although It is not a different person, it is me – fixed. Right? We have this colleague, she is his friend of many years, She does not have much work yet (unlike me) and she often suggests she would help me with my projects, research and send me some things, writes “hello” in the morning etc. I think she respects me (does not know me yet), maybe because I take long to respond and I respond very briefly. I do not act inferior with her, I noticed. Sometimes I feel … guilty? That I am “superior” and she is waiting for me to respond although I do not think it’s bad, I am busy, I do not do it on purpose.
I actually tried to unfreeze once but did not know what to do once I did. It was last week. I was planning to – in the moment of distress, anxiety, to be able to, to force myself to pause for a minute, press pause and see myself, my emotions. I have those stressful meetings at work. For many years I was afraid of typical office work, among people, but life and covid forced me to. I have been working here since June 2021, in this particular department since December 2021 but I did not have that many meetings yet. First one I had in March – I did not sleep the night before, when I was waiting on zoom call for the other person (they often have higher position – we do projects for them) I looked in my camera – I felt sorry for myself, I looked really miserable. Last week I had my fifth meeting of this kind. I also did not sleep, I really did not want to go through with it. I was not only anxious, I was hopeless. When I started presenting the documents I felt stressed so it was not possible to pause, but after more less an hour, I guess, when we already established the agenda and I was done talking (although it was not much on my part, they sometimes ask what I can find, what I can add here etc) and we were still there on this meeting I suddenly looked somewhere in the middle of my presentation and thought: “I am here, in this meeting, I am here, I am stressing about it. They are here too” I tried to fake the feeling in my body as if the meeting was over, tried to feel the feeling of relief, I tried to fake it and fool myself into thinking the meeting was over and I do not have to stress over it anymore – although I was still there. Not sure if this makes sense but I think what I was trying to do is unfreeze myself, connect with my emotions, with feelings of anxiety that I had. Anyway I did not have many ideas what else to do and what to say to myself in that moment.
Anita, You were asking questions about this moment: how do I feel? My heart was racing very fast, my stomach hurt, I could not eat since morning and still was not hungry, my voice was shaking I think and I have trouble breathing – sometimes the last one passes with time but it happens every time at the beginning – I sound like I just ran a marathon because I gasp for air when I start talking. What was the actual situation that brought about these feelings and sensations? – Just the fact we are in a meeting and I have to show I prepared something, they seem demanding, they are in a rush often, What were my thoughts following the situation? – I was obsessed thinking I was incompetent, that they would think I am not smart and the fact that they are mostly men over 50s-60s, they are important for the company and they earn a lot, they seem and look like important people – I think it bothers me how small I am compared to them.
when you notice a freeze reaction, if it is possible for you, take some time away from the situation, take a few slow breaths, and write down in a journal specific for this exercise
I will, from now on, I will. I know I need to plan it earlier because I will.. freeze and forget about it. I will try to do it tomorrow as I have another meeting. Then I will try to do it while talking to people, like on Saturday – I tried but it was very, very tiny attempt.
CarolineParticipantOn Sunday I talked less*
*I mean Saturday, at the meeting of course. Sorry for mistakes.
Have a great day, Anita and Tee, if you are reading this now 🙂
CarolineParticipantTee,
“I am sorry that seeing things as they are caused you so much grief. Please do not fall into despair, because there is so much hope for the future, now that you know what the main problem is. You can still build happy, mutually respectful relationships, even if this wasn’t possible in your family of origin. Things can change” – I strongly believe things can change and I will work on that. Feels good to be respected.
What you wrote about my mother is true. I know there is nothing wrong with me, she just projected her lack of confidence and shame on to me. She will not change, she does not want to.
I am glad you listened to the song. I was never a greatest fan of music but recently (past 2 years) I started to listen a lot of music, maybe 500% more than in my whole life before that. It gives me joy, calm and changes me, I think.
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