Dear Katrine,

yes, hang in there, and if you can, start therapy, because I am sure it will help.

I too hope he gets at least 2 days off…

Hi Adam,

I was always myself around her at first but the more she became unstable and voice concerns the more I would feel like I wasn’t enough.

Yes, you started out as being yourself, but she couldn’t tolerate it and would get offended for small things (e.g. you telling her she’s not good at finding directions). So you started watching what you say and not being yourself around her.

Last time before she broke up with you, she accused you of cheating, which wasn’t true and was completely irrational:

She started saying she had a feeling that I was cheating on her even though I wasn’t. She said she knew I wasn’t but it was a feeling and she didn’t know why her head was telling her that.

She was also getting “thoughts of leaving”, and she said she couldn’t fight those thoughts. She could have done something about those thoughts – by seeking therapy for example. But she didn’t want to. She had an excuse why she doesn’t want therapy. So she acted like a victim of her irrational thoughts and feelings – as if she couldn’t do anything about it. Well, she could have done. But she chose not to.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot expect to have a meaningful relationship with a mentally unstable person, who just gets weird thoughts and feelings, and doesn’t want to seek professional help. And basically tortures you with those feelings: accuses you of cheating on her, of not being her priority, of not being there for her 24/7, etc etc.

You became the victim of her moods, and chose to expose yourself to those moods. Hoping she would change – although she didn’t show any intention to change. She might have said she wanted to change, but those were just empty words. In reality, she hasn’t done anything in the past 11 months since you’ve known her to seek help.

I am sorry you cannot see this, Adam. That this is a hopeless situation. She isn’t interested in healing at this point. And you are a collateral victim of her mental illness. You are still hoping for something that won’t happen any time soon. And in the meanwhile, you are losing yourself, you are becoming a shell of a person. You are exposing yourself to emotional abuse.

I couldn’t leave because I had so much faith and trust that she would stick it out and push through those hard times, I can’t understand why she didn’t. Why she had to leave makes no sense to me still.

How can she push through if she doesn’t want to seek therapy? She is stuck in trauma and it doesn’t just go away from itself. Why doesn’t she want therapy? Probably because she doesn’t want to truly take responsibility for her life. She wants to stay the victim. You are a nice addition, because you take off the pressure and soothe her when she is feeling down. Which is most of the time. So you are there as her releasing valve and a punching bag, as you said. You are a function for her, not an individual with your own needs and wants.

Why she had to leave makes no sense to me still.

Because that’s her go-to reaction: she leaves whenever she is triggered. Whenever she feels you’re not perfectly caring and understanding. Whenever you raise a concern about her. And by now she’s learned that you always want her back, and you always become even less demanding and more careful not to upset her. So maybe she is using breakups as a tactics to control you. I don’t know. But even if she doesn’t, that’s the net effect: after each breakup you become more careful how you behave around her, what you say, you walk on egg shells…

So you think that we only reconciled in the past because I reached out?

Possibly. But maybe she knew you would reach out because you always do. But what’s important is that after you reconcile, nothing changes. Her moodiness continues, and you are there as a punching bag. And you always believe that this time, things would change. But that’s wishful thinking, that’s deluding yourself. Because she doesn’t take any steps to help herself. So it cannot be different than the last time.

it makes me think we will still rekindle and she will want to, so I’m not sure what to do or think.

Yes, unfortunately you still can’t see how destructive this relationship is for you. She might reach out, tell you some promising words, and then continue business-as-usual.

In an ideal situation I wouldn’t be loosing myself your right.

Yes, in a healthy relationship you don’t lose yourself. In a toxic one you do.

It hurts a lot loosing her because I really feel like she was the one and that it was a shared vision.

Well, she may have told you that she’d want to spend her life with you. But again, those were just empty words, because in  reality, she didn’t do anything to work towards that “shared vision.” Theory and nice promises are one thing, but reality, which is repeating itself again and again, is another.

In her eyes I think she was bringing me down and that’s why she left. But that sounds like an excuse if that’s the reason.

You see it well. She didn’t leave because she wanted to protect you. She left because she was upset with you, you weren’t “good enough” for her. As I said, she might be even using breakups to manipulate you and make you even more “meek”. I am not sure about that, but nevertheless, that’s the end result of each of your breakup.

Yeh there is definitely a deep longing and it’s difficult to let go of it. I still think about reaching out and the what’s ifs.

I understand… because the pain of being without her is too big. And even if this relationship is destructive and makes you lose yourself, and suffer, you’d still rather be with her than alone. Even if the price is so high…

I just wanted to find myself with her and I thought I really could’ve. Maybe she didn’t feel the same.

We can’t find ourselves while being focused exclusively on the other person. In order to find ourselves, we need to look within, find things that we love and do them… Just as an example, you said you feel bored on the weekends, and I think it’s because you don’t have anything to do when you’re not with her. It could be that you don’t have hobbies, things that you enjoy doing – separately of her?

If you want to have a fulfilled life, you’d need to find yourself as an independent and separate person from her. Because that’s who you are at your core. Only when we find ourselves, and are happy with who we are, can we form healthy relationships with others.

I notice two parts in you, Adam: one is your rational self, who sees things clearly and sees that you were abused. And the other part is emotional and clingy, who deludes himself that it will be better next time and wants to try again. This clingy part overwrites your reason, forgets about the bad things that happened and latches onto false hope.

I think this other part is your inner child, who desperately needs to be loved and more importantly, seeks love from emotionally unavailable people. I think you’d need to work on your inner child, so you can be free from this kind of dependence.

Hi Peter,

The first time I came across the passage I wondered what he could mean to hope for the wrong thing. Isn’t hope a good thing?

In hindsight on my experience hope I think I can say that more often than not hope for the wrong thing as it only amplified what it was that I wished to avoid.

Yes, we can hope for the wrong  thing, so it can be counterproductive. My hope is related to physical health actually: hope not to be in chronic physical pain till the rest of my life. And yes, fear of that very scenario. So I can resonate with Vaclav Havel’s definition of hope: Hope is a dimension of the soul, an orientation of the spirit, an orientation of the heart. It transcends the world that is immediately experienced and is anchored somewhere beyond its horizon. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out.

I have a hard time accepting that chronic physical pain makes sense and that it brings any good to anyone – at least not on the long run. I am all for learning our lessons, even through pain and suffering, and transcending ourselves and our limitations. But constant and relentless physical pain (and suffering that it produces) is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Therefore, I hope that it is not what waits ahead. Luckily, I am not in constant physical pain, but it comes and goes. I’ve learned to appreciate when it lessens. So I hope that it will be manageable and not a constant suffering.

I also know that pain and suffering are not the same. I am learning not to associate physical pain with the thought that “I am doomed, this will never end.” Because a thought like that causes even greater suffering.

As for Thomas Merton’s definition of hope, it sounds more related to the attachment to the results of our work. He says we shouldn’t be attached, if I understood well, and still keep doing that what we feel is right and valuable. I do agree with him fully…

Dear Katrine,

Like me coming to visit him on his birthday in June is a clear date, but he’s not sure how much time they will give him off (he’s hoping for two days) so we can’t really plan anything until we know exactly when which I don’t like.

He should ask them for at least 2 days off when you visit him, otherwise it may happen he will be working all day and won’t be able to spend much time with you. I think he should be able to ask for those 2 days, and not depend on their mercy.

I think he struggles with that too. Like I told him several times to talk to a manager about the head chef and he never did. Or try to get him to ask for shifts in reception when they needed it before giving those shifts t someone else. But it easy for me to say cuz I’m exactly the same and I’m still struggeling to set boundaries myself.

Yeah it seems he has a problem to stand up for himself and say No at work. Or to express what he wants (e.g. to get easier shifts when possible).

He wrote me yesterday to check up on how I was doing and so that felt good

Good, I am glad he wrote to you without being prompted by you.

I think that working in the kitchen that long has hurt his mental health more than he’s willing to say.

Possibly… because working 72-hr weeks under a person who is suffering from behavioral problems (or even mental illness) is a huge burden. If he has low self-esteem, then being exposed to that kind of harassment (being put down, not allowed to use the bathroom etc) can cause him to feel ever worse about himself, to take things to heart and believe that he is not good enough. So yeah, it probably affected him a lot…

We had problems with him yesterday, he made the new chef cry then kicked him out of the kitchen. Then I got kicked out and a collegue for trying to check up on the delayed food orders

I really don’t understand why they are still keeping the head chef, even though he is harassing the staff. Is he really that irreplaceable?

Also I don’t think that he has been in a relationship before, and maybe doesn’t know quite how to comminicate (like myself)

Well, it’s good he is reaching out to you, it’s not just you initiating contact. This shows he is interested in the relationship with you, it’s just that he has too much on his plate (partly due to his inability to set boundaries). I hope you’ll be able to talk to him about all this when you meet. Perhaps you can encourage him to ask for 2 days off for his birthday, and see what he says.

I have been really exhausted lately so put it aside but I want to contact the therapist soon because she seems really good. It will have o be online and i’m not very technical but we will figure it out I think.

Yes, do that, and don’t worry, you’ll figure out the technology part!

Hi Adam,

she never wanted her bad moods to affect people and that’s why she chose to leave at times and be distant.

She use to say things along the lines of ‘I shouldn’t feel bad for feeling a certain way‘ , yet when I would say something similar it was unfair in her eyes. It was always a double standard.

She may have said that she doesn’t want her moods to affect you badly. However, when you expressed that her moods are affecting you badly, she thought you were unfair to her. So yes, it was a double standard, and she wasn’t really honest when she said she doesn’t want her moods to affect you.

Due to her trauma, she could only think of herself and her needs. She needed you to support her 24/7, and you were not supposed to express any concern or upset about her behavior. You ended up tip-toeing around her, watching your every word. Eventually, this turned you into a shell of a person (The feeling of loosing myself and becoming a shell).

She said she did want to work on healing but she didn’t really take any action on it.

Again, she promised something, but those were just empty words. She didn’t take any steps towards it. A little bit like the above: saying one thing, but doing the other.

Do you think I pushed her to change too much? I did earlier in the relationship, but then I stopped and was left waiting for her to still get work, therapy etc.

You were too attached to her changing. You were not able to leave the relationship. She was leaving you multiple times, because you couldn’t play by her rules, you couldn’t be a 24/7 protector who never complains and never needs anything.

So instead of pushing her to change and trying to help her heal, the best thing for you would have been to leave. Because the same cycle was repeating over and over, and nothing was changing.

In the later cycles, you say you even stopped pushing her. You tried to play by her rules, but it still wasn’t good enough for her, was it? She wasn’t happy with you… In fact, in the last 3 weeks she was telling you you need to make her your first priority (She was often in my ear telling me I need to change my priorities and be there for her etc.).

So it was never enough for her – even if you stopped pushing her to change, find a job etc.

So you think I was in love with the idea of what she could be? There was a lot I loved and also a lot I didn’t but I put up with it. I taught myself that it was okay and this was just who she was.

Yes, I think so. You hoped she would heal the traumatized part and stopped being so moody and needy. However, this healing never happened, she never did anything about it. She would break up with you whenever you demanded something. And you couldn’t bear the thought of losing her. That’s why you always reached out and reconciled… and I guess with each reconciliation, you became more and more compliant, less and less demanding of her (I taught myself that it was okay and this was just who she was.)

You taught yourself – you forced yourself – to accept her moodiness and neediness. But even that wasn’t good enough for her. She wanted more, she wanted to be your top priority. And this led you to lose yourself and become a shell.

Do you see? Your unwillingness to lose her led you to lose yourself.

I do see how the reality is a lot different and I think that’s what hurts but I do feel I am healing as well. Just the thought of it all actually ending causes grief.

Yes, you don’t want to lose her, because losing her is very loaded for you. I think it touches something deep in your heart, perhaps a feeling of being unwanted, or not good enough. You were never good enough for her, and you wanted to prove that you are. But you see what effect it had on you: it made you lose yourself, it almost destroyed you…

I don’t know why I am latching into an imagined future. I feel like each day I think about it a tiny bit more. I will try my hardest to not beautify the relationship and remember what it actually was.

I think you are latching on it because you still want to hold on to the hope that she might change some day, and finally love you. And in your mind, this will be a proof that you’re good enough. I think it’s some deep longing there, that’s why it is so hard to let go.

But please be aware of what is at stake her. You don’t want to lose yourself so you can have her. You need to find yourself, to affirm yourself, to strengthen yourself. Because you are worthy!

Dear saggad,

you’re very welcome.

And thank you for reminding me that not everyone has to be forgiven, cause my efforts to forgive didn’t work so far. Maybe I should accept the fact that I can’t come to 100% peace with her in my mind. And I have to live with it maybe…

Yes, I think your first priority at the moment shouldn’t be to forgive her. I think it’s okay if you allow yourself to feel the anger, because it’s a justified anger. She did treat you badly, she was dishonest, betrayed your trust and stole from you. Feeling angry is an indicator that we were wronged or violated, so it’s a healthy protective mechanism. It’s to signal you that you shouldn’t allow the same thing happen in the future.

Over time, as you feel more able to protect yourself from abusive people, you won’t feel intense anger any more, it won’t occupy your heart and mind as it does now. You will be free from it.

And my effort should be toward forgiving myself and giving myself permission to live again.

Yes, absolutely!

and yes, I have to learn how to recognize selfish people and unhealthy relationships. Any advice about it or a book to read would be so helpful.

Hm, I don’t have a specific book that comes to mind. But I think you did recognize already in 2019 that this relationship was unhealthy, because you described it back then:

My first relationship (which was with a 32 years old woman) was pretty awful. I was in relationship during 3 years with her and during those years I was only taking care of her problems and I’ve never touched her even. … those 3 years was absolutely​ bad. I loved her but I didn’t receive anything from her… I don’t know why I was in that relationship… I knew that she only want me in her bad days and I didn’t have any meaning for her at all…

So you knew she was using you. That’s good. You did have the awareness of it, even if later you got back together with her. We can talk about the circumstances how and why you got back together, but it’s good that you actually know what a bad relationship is, and what a selfish behavior looks like.

You also knew what you wanted from a relationship. You wrote this in 2019:

I felt that I should be in the right relationship and being able to love someone and enjoy the life with her (and not only being an helper and then a garbage)

You also knew that the girl whom you were with later wasn’t good for you:

I knew that she was not the right choice, she never could accept me as I am. But I felt the need so I decided to be with her.

So you knew that if the woman doesn’t accept you for who you are, she is not a good choice. But you went along anyway, because you desperately wanted a relationship.

So I think you do know what an unhealthy relationship is, and what you should look out for. You only need to decide not to go into such relationships, or stay in them, against your better judgment.

I think you’d basically need to work on the reasons why you tolerated selfish and abusive behavior by your first girlfriend, and what is it that made you get back together with her and trust her, in spite of her self-centeredness.

Dear saggad,

oh I see, you were visiting her daughters in hospital, so you know for sure.

I checked your other thread as well, to understand a little better. Is this woman the same woman you had a long-distance relationship with, and then she broke it off when you couldn’t travel to her country (sometime in 2019)? Does it mean she had come to your country since, for her daughters’ treatment? And now she is gone again?

I am sorry you can’t do anything to seek justice. It’s good that you’re not too attached to the money and have mostly let it go, since you can earn it again.

What would the process of letting it go look like in a situation like this? While I’m almost sure forgiving doesn’t work when the person even doesn’t admit to what she has done. I tried but I couldn’t.

This woman was not what she was portraying herself to be. She was dishonest and used you for her purposes. Even if she had sick children and needed money for their treatment, the fact that she tricked you into writing your flat on her name and then selling it is a crime. So you’d need to accept that this woman is a liar and that she will never apologize, nor admit her actions. Not all women are like that, but you’d need to learn how to protect yourself from selfish, deceptive women in the future.

it is destroying my mental health and any future relationship that I could have.

Is it because you believe that you will be hurt like that again? That you can’t trust any woman?

If so, the best way to move on is to learn how to protect yourself from a similar disappointment in the future.

In your previous thread you mentioned that your first relationship was with a woman 12 yrs older than you, who only contacted you when she needed something from you. And that you were never intimate with her. Your second relationship was with a girl who wanted to change almost everything about you, and with whom you didn’t have anything common to talk about. And your 3rd relationship was long-distance, with a woman you said understood you, but couldn’t wait for you to move to her country. Presumably this is the woman who later cheated on you financially?

All 3 of those relationships were bad for you, with selfish and/or deceptive women. From your previous thread and anita’s correspondence with you, I think I understand why you were attracted to such women and why you didn’t recognize that those weren’t healthy relationships.

So I think one of the major tasks would be to start learning what a healthy relationship is and a healthy, supportive interaction between two people. Because you didn’t it have it too much in your childhood or adolescence.

I am sorry you didn’t therapy helpful. Otherwise a good therapist could be a perfect person with whom you can practice healthy communication, and who can meet some of your basic needs: of being seen, accepted, validated, mirrored… all those things you didn’t receive from your parents.

How does this sound? Was it of any help to you?