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Actually lots of problems after sudden awakening

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  • #397968
    deci
    Participant

    per the OP… who never responded to anyones’ posts~

    After my awakening, I was kinda clueless what to do about the suffering associated with it – the Ego fought back with creating an identity around the subject “life was pointless.” Taking things personal does not make sense to me anymore. That is probably the reason that everything I tried in order to control the process,  like exercising, meditation felt useless. It made no sense to “get better”.

    This is the kernel …and the proof, that absolutely nothing is gained by complete perfect enlightenment. If something were gained, it wouldn’t be enlightenment. Actually, that the palpable takeaway is a feeling of loss, proves one’s authentic experience beyond the created, the incremental— by a selfless absorption into nonorigination, hence its selfless (objective) knowledge.

    Nevertheless, of all those who see Essence according to their inherent spiritual potential, even of those whose powerful experience constitutes the Absolute, and know that limit, and witness the stages prior to the dichotomy of the creative (Change), also realize that reality has never fallen into the creative; that awareness as your own mind right now has never moved from where it hovers, on the brink of going into action in perpetuity~ what would one hope to fix? It is already thus.

    The ancients have all admonished those who, having stumbled into such a wonder through no effort or will on their part, to take up the path of self-refinement at once, or else squander an opportunity of inconceivable proportions. That “…ego fought back with creating an identity around the subject “life was pointless”, constitutes the work of gradual practice in the aftermath of the sudden. It is clear that any notion of depression, self-pity, apathy, malaise, melancholy, et al, are all just the psychological acrobatics of ego unable to hide— yet hiding none the less by insinuating itself as depression, self-pity, apathy, malaise, melancholy, and on and on. It continues to masquerade under any pretext or rationale in the face of its great lie.

    The work of self-refinement in the aftermath of the sudden is the work of a lifetime with the caveat that Real Knowledge of selfless nonorigination beyond any notion of personal absolute identity is a potential deal-breaker for our friend ego. Taoism says that the first trip is short (has an ending): this is the sudden. It says that the second trip is long (is endless): this is gradual practice in the aftermath of selfless sudden realization where it becomes apparent that there is nothing to know, there is no one knowing in terms of awareness being void of voidness constituting the nature of awake, being a selfless inconceivable capacity never having begun. This is who we are. This is the basic experience. It is not special, per se; simply uncommon and beyond convention. What is necessary, over a course of years (Gautama Buddha was no different), is to quell one’s biases and inclinations to arrive at a point where one simply accepts one’s function, takes the forward step, and shares oneself freely with open hands.

    In the aftermath of witnessing the Great Cycle, it should be expected that one’s return to “normal” would seem impossible. But normal is simply seeing what is as is without interjecting the psychological momentum of one’s lifelong biases and inclinations relative to the pattern-awareness being the false identity of the knower, thinker and liver of life. It is possible to go through life’s karmic situational evolutions without bringing up self-reifying tags relative to one’s personality identifications— and that’s not just after the sudden. Why? Enlightenment is already your own mind right now. It’s not a different mind: it’s just not your mind. It’s you, you are not it. Just don’t use your mind. Not using your mind is your own mind right now without entertaining notions of the knower, thinker and liver of life.

    The reason it is so, not to mention that such is possible to carry out naturally in the midst of delusion, is that such is natural. It’s just not expressed relative to the person, or anyone else’s knowledge. Even so, this is carried out in the open because awareness is already impersonal, objective immediate knowledge. Potential is awareness being itself. There is no cause. That awareness being itself as oneself is ever-ready potential awakened to reality all at once without having to begin. Just this doesn’t refer to mystical experience or its aftermath relative to recalcitrant ego-tantrums admitted as evidence by the OP, it is so by virtue of having a body. The spiritual function not being the person, per se, is just the way it is and no one knows why.

    Self refinement, whether practiced gradually before or after the sudden makes no difference. Simply failing to exercise self-reflective consciousness unawares is self-refinement. Following thoughts unawares is delusion. Mind is one. The light of Creation is karmic bondage; turning the light around, self-reification becomes selfless wonder on the spot. The light is one.

    Selfless authentic practice is carried out unbeknownst to anyone by seeing reality by virtue of delusion. I hope it is obvious that selflessness has no moralistic connotations relative to self and other, good and bad, right and wrong, or even before and after. Buddhism calls such practice subtle spiritual adaption in mutual response. This means that one’s selfless adaption to conditions is precisely and naturally perfect accord with the situation according with the inherent potential of the situation itself. Discriminatory consciousness and deliberation relative to the person has no place to act. Seeing potential is immediate knowledge based on awareness void of personality distinctions. Obviously habit-energy’s psychological momentum based on ordinary necessarily functional pattern-consciousness is a hard nut to crack. The function itself is not faulty. Habituation to its use relative to the person to the exclusion of fluid, open awareness is where the fault lies. Ego isn’t the perpetrator. THERE IS NO PERPETRATOR. That’s why there is no “getting better.” What would there be to get better? The notion of suffering relative to the OP’s classification is just the ego-antics of the thieving impostor of all time expressing self-importance as self-pity.

    Self refinement, either before or after the sudden, is a perpetual process of refining away the human mentality as it reverts to naturally serving one’s enlightening function which accords inherently with situational evolution throughout endless transformations. Just this is inconceivable accord in reality entering the profound mystery. By virtue of having a body, it’s not the person. How wonderful is that?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by deci.
    #397970
    deci
    Participant

    “That awareness being itself as oneself is ever-ready potential awakened to reality all at once without having to begin”, from the sixth line of the seventh paragraph, should read (omitting the first word “That”) as:

    Awareness being itself as oneself is ever-ready potential awakened to reality all at once without having to begin.

    Everything else that I wrote above is as I had intended. This forum’s edit parameter is pretty strict— so I’m glad I did have the opportunity to edit the prior post once though!

    #397972
    Helcat
    Participant

    It is my understanding that with a significant amount of practice depression can be overcome.

    I have been reading some interesting texts written by masters recently and my understanding of this phenomena is slightly different.

    Whilst we all have buddha nature, what I believe this means is not that we are all enlightened. But that we all are inherently good, have the facility to practice and make healthy changes. What practice does is train you to access buddha nature. Whereas for others that don’t practice buddha nature might be accessed infrequently.

    As for ego, even masters have ego. It is part of the human experience and how we function.The key is not letting ego drive all decision making. Learning to let ego take a back seat because there is more than ego.

    It is helpful to understand various concepts, but at the same time they are dualistic. These ideas both exist and they don’t. Often, what we learn to be true in one moment is no longer true in the next. It is my belief that we need to be fluid and not attach too much to concepts. They teach us lessons, not hard and fast rules.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Helcat.
    #397974
    Helcat
    Participant

    I would also add that when it comes to enlightenment, my understanding is that most often it occurs when we die.

    It is often suggested that practice is to prepare for this moment in death.

    I’m not suggesting that it can’t occur at other times.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Helcat.
    #398684
    deci
    Participant

    Helcat commented:

    I would also add that when it comes to enlightenment, my understanding is that most often it occurs when we die.

    It is often suggested that practice is to prepare for this moment in death.

    Oh? Then why bother practicing diligently during one’s life for the ultimate moment of one’s personal death when sudden realization of one’s true identity is most likely (and most often) to occur at the end of one’s lifetime?

    I’m not suggesting that your understanding is erroneous, but then, who, in fact, would know?

    Of all prior illuminates who have left the opened secret intact and have invested their lives’ work in keeping the knowledge alive and have documented all manner of provisional and direct teachings over the ages, I wonder why I have never heard such talk that sudden realization (that has ANY power at all to transform oneself and others) is most likely to occur when you’re dead.

    I wonder who those would be who would be most likely to have often suggested that the great matter of life and death would most likely (and be generally understood by most to) occur after one’s life— or at least during one’s exact physical extirpation when the root of one’s life is pulled up by its stem. If so, perhaps the great matter of life and death should be called the great matter of death? After all, seeing the nature of one’s enlightening being is going to be experienced most often at that time anyway. Just saying~ when does the part about life come into the equation, hmmm?

    When one takes note that the very existence of this website is claimed to exist in order to promote the APPLICATION of such transformational experience and sharing for the benefit of the living, I am tempted to ask, just when does one hope to apply the effective enlightening experience that one has sincerely prepared for during a lifetime of spiritual practice when it is “often” understood that such enlightenment generally occurs anyway at the moment of death?

    As for the conjecture that such practice is “often suggested” to be effective preparation for the moment of one’s extinction, I would counter that it is not the moment of one’s death that one is preparing for, because, simply put— when you’re dead, it’s too late. Who exactly is experiencing enlightenment at the moment of death? The person? I assure you, there is no such a one. Therefore, who, in precise terms, applies the power of nonorigination at and beyond, both entering and returning through the boundary of no return? That would be the same one who applies its power in the midst of the karmic realm. Again, it is not the person. Authentic practice is that which allows the real to be expressed in enlightening activity by virtue of the person, yet not by the person who would depend on personal intent and power of relative influence. Buddhism calls such activity “subtle spiritual adaption. Who is this adaptive element?

    The point of gradual enlightening practice is to somehow harmonize and align in resonance with true inconceivable reality by one’s very approach to life, in the midst of this dream (by virtue of this dream) in order to fuse the dual by its inherent transcendent essence naturally; whereby one eventually (by failing to entertain anticipatory consciousness), spontaneously finds oneself by inconceivable penetration into a realm that has never begun. Then, after seeing its absolute nature as no different than one’s perfectly nonoriginated selflessly aware self, to once again assume the created aspect and learn to apply the inherent knowledge of selfless awareness in the midst of the realm of delusional birth and death. Therefore sudden realization during one’s lifetime does not confer buddhahood. During such experience, one only realizes the one has always been thus without beginning, and that such is the same as neither before nor after, birth nor death, person nor existence, right nor wrong, good nor bad. Furthermore, just this is not different than the nature of life and death in the very midst of our own delusions.

    Again, I am not suggesting that your observation is outrightly flawed, but I must clarify for you and for those who would care to get to the bottom of the great matter, that when it comes to enlightenment, nothing is gained by its realization during one’s life. How much less is gained by “…practice to prepare for this moment…” by one’s death?

    One such as the OP has gone to the “other” side. To experience an undeniably authentic moment of selfless realization and then entertain many months of doubt and self-pity in its aftermath, and not once mentioning anything relative to setting to work right away to refine that experience… such is pure folly! I completely understand it though. Sudden realization is an inconceivably huge pill to swallow. Gautama Buddha spent years in the aftermath of his experience tempering the maturation of the true teaching of Mind’s real knowledge, but hardly anyone talks about that.

    Please do not assume that enlightenment at the moment of one’s death is acceptably sufficient to authenticate its application of power and then be satisfied that such experience is in any way considered to be a satisfactory endeavor to keep the knowledge alive. It must be never overlooked that seeing potential in the midst of delusional existence not only does not depend on the sudden, it is to be practically applied both before AND after the sudden. Why doesn’t enlightening activity depend on sudden realization of the absolute nature of nonorigination? It is because the knowledge of true potential is already your own mind right now; this is why the buddha said that nothing whatsoever is gained by complete perfect enlightenment.

    It is necessary to get to work right away. That enlightenment is the very scene before your eyes right now makes no whit of difference from the predicament that the OP is projecting. Before or after the sudden is one continuum. Who knew?

     

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by deci.
    #398686
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Deci

    What I discussed are Tibetan Buddhist beliefs. From the Buddhist perspective, due to belief in reincarnation these practices are done to help guide you to achieving a better reincarnation. It is said that if you achieve enlightenment you become a Buddha, yet most Buddha do not choose to walk the earth, many go to the Buddha realm.

    The reason why dying helps certain people achieve enlightenment is because dying is a process that dissolves the ego.

    It takes many lifetimes to achieve enlightenment. There have only been 20+ known Buddhas throughout human history. This is how rare achieving enlightenment is. Enlightenment is a rare phenomenon. Rare in death and even rarer still  in life.

    I believe that practicing meditation can do a lot of good and enact a lot of change even before achieving enlightenment. The Dalai Lama himself doesn’t claim to be enlightened. Many masters do not claim to be enlightened. Yet, they still help many people with the level of spiritual attainment that they have achieved.

    Personally, I am doing these practices to benefit my mental health. Psychology is largely based on Buddhist practices and I have reached the limit of what psychology can achieve.

    I’m guessing that you haven’t read the Tibetan Book of the Dead or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Most people do not like discussing death. But there are Tibetan Buddhist practices that are heavily linked to death.

    You’re right living and dying are reflections of similar phenomenon. Sleeping is considered to be a state similar to death. The quality of your sleep is considered a reflection of your practices.

    Compassion is a big component that many masters discuss with building a level of attainment.

    #398739
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Phil/ Reader:

    In your first post on another thread, in Nov 2017, a teenager at the time, you shared: “Derealisation and Depersonalisation hit me out of the blue (probably because of prolonged stress) … I was in this ‘movie/dream world’ for a long time (and later) developed a strange time anxiety/phobia, I just wanted the time to stop, and I didn’t want the future to come… I have a feeling of being stuck between past and future and I really don’t really have a sense of self. It is like my old identity died and I, as the observer, am stuck in this transition and suffer very, very badly”.

    In May 2018, you shared that since August of 2017, you’ve been “in a very bad state of mind”. You expressed that you experienced “a partial awakening” that spiraled into “depression and ended in a split identity… it is either…  total identification with ego or a somehow ‘in between’ state…  Just imagine jumping off a cliff but without ground to hit on. I feel so lost. So not like a normal person. So crazy… Maybe I just experience something unknown, spiritual, supernatural”.

    In July 2018, you shared: “When I don’t suffer, I describe feelings and states of an awakened being. It is strange because I was not interested in awakening it all – it just happened, and I clearly know that there is no way back… for 11 months now, I have been feeling like I hit the lowest points of mental suffering a human being can ever experience. Every time I got up and felt better, I felt like I was reborn. What suffers because of those ‘death and rebirths’ is my person(a)… I just can’t make sense out of how…”.

    My thoughts today: words synonymous to Awakening are Understanding, Insight, Learning, Knowledge, Awareness, Illumination. I see none of these possible for a person when in a state of “being stuck between past and future…  don’t really have a sense of self… suffer very, very badly… in a very bad state of mind… a split identity… so lost… So crazy… the lowest points of mental suffering a human being can ever experience… just can’t make sense out of how”.

    Reads to me like a state of mental illness, not a state of an Awakening. Phil mentioned having suffered from depersonalization and realizations, which are forms of dissociation, before his “awakening”. HIH, National Library of Medicine, has a study titled: “The relationship between Dissociation and Symptoms of Psychosis”, it found that “dissociative phenomena are robustly related to multiple positive symptoms” of psychosis. Positive symptoms of psychosis include hallucinations and delusions.

    In regard to the most recent activity on this thread: a certain difference in views was expressed, followed by one member expressing a measure of hostility against the other. Also, most recently, the value of Compassion and the Dalai Lama were mentioned. I want to conclude my post with (1) a few of my most favorite quotes from the Dalai Lama that I believe to be relevant here:

    Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion“.

    If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them“.

    If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion“.

    Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible“.

    Look at situations from all angles, and you will become more open“.

    The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual’s own reason and critical analysis“.

    (2) The Tibetan Book of the Dead was mentioned as well. Here is a quote from the book that is meaningful and relevant to me:

    Are you oblivious to the sufferings of birth, old age, sickness and death? There is no guarantee that you will survive, even past this very day! The time has come [for you] to develop perseverance in [your] practice. For, at this singular opportunity, you could attain the everlasting bliss [of nirvāṇa]. So now is [certainly] not the time to sit idly, But, starting with [the reflection on] death, you should bring your practice to completion! The moments of our life are not expendable, And the [possible] circumstances of death are beyond imagination. If you do not achieve an undaunted confident security now, What point is there in your being alive, O living creature?”-

    – I see it in my own life and I see it on these forums all the time: we do the work, we heal, we feel better… and then we encounter a difficulty: an undesired real-life situation, or a distressing thought or emotion, or physical discomfort or pain, and we give up on the practice of healing… until the next time we get to be inspired, make progress, encounter a difficult situation… and give up yet again.

    The last sentence in the quote is: “If you do not achieve an undaunted confident security now, What point is there in your being alive…?” Undaunted means: not intimidated or discouraged by difficulty, danger, or disappointment.

    We all need to not get intimidated or discouraged by difficulties, new or old; we need to not get intimidated or discouraged by distressing thoughts and emotions and discomforts, and instead, “develop perseverance in [your] practice…bring your practice to completion!“, completion of healing and learning for the day, that is (as there is never a completion of healing or learning).

    Like the quote says, we are oblivious to “the sufferings of birth, old age, sickness and death“, oblivious to the fact that “There is no guarantee that you will survive… past this very day!“. We go about life as if we’d never die, as if never-dying is an option. We spend all of our time and resources (placing a hold on healing) trying to resolve a current difficult real-life situation, or a current distressing thought/ emotion, discomfort or pain, as if once resolved, we will be free to live happily-ever-after. We fail to see what’s in front of us: the next difficult situation, the next distressing thought, emotion, discomfort or pain… and the eventual, inevitable death, which could happen at any day or night.

    I think that the most difficult part of healing is developing the perseverance required in order to heal and experience the best life possible for us. We need to expect and to not be discouraged by the inevitable, guaranteed next difficult situation, thought, emotion, discomfort or pain.

    anita

     

    #398740
    Helcat
    Participant

    @anita

    Thank you for sharing your insight, as well as the wonderful quotes!

    I’m in the early stages of learning about Buddhism, so I’m happy to default to the perspectives of well known spiritual leaders.

    Sadly, I would agree with you regarding OP. I can only hope they are doing better now.

    I actually know someone who managed to overcome depression via Buddhist practices. So I would question the spiritual attainment of anyone who hasn’t been able to achieve that much.

    I would agree with you wholeheartedly about perseverance. It is an essential trait in this world. This is something that I’m slowly developing. It is hard but rewarding work intentionally, repeatedly stepping outside of your comfort zone.

    #398741
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Helcat:

    You are welcome. Maybe starting a thread titled (using your words) Early stages of learning About Buddhism, or Overcoming Depression via Buddhism Practice or the like is a good idea? We can talk Buddhism there. I would like that!

    anita

    #398782
    deci
    Participant

    Helcat commented:

    Hi Deci

    What I discussed are Tibetan Buddhist beliefs. From the Buddhist perspective, due to belief in reincarnation these practices are done to help guide you to achieving a better reincarnation. It is said that if you achieve enlightenment you become a Buddha, yet most Buddha do not choose to walk the earth, many go to the Buddha realm.

    The reason why dying helps certain people achieve enlightenment is because dying is a process that dissolves the ego.

    It takes many lifetimes to achieve enlightenment. There have only been 20+ known Buddhas throughout human history. This is how rare achieving enlightenment is. Enlightenment is a rare phenomenon. Rare in death and even rarer still  in life.

    I believe that practicing meditation can do a lot of good and enact a lot of change even before achieving enlightenment. The Dalai Lama himself doesn’t claim to be enlightened. Many masters do not claim to be enlightened. Yet, they still help many people with the level of spiritual attainment that they have achieved.

    Personally, I am doing these practices to benefit my mental health. Psychology is largely based on Buddhist practices and I have reached the limit of what psychology can achieve.

    I’m guessing that you haven’t read the Tibetan Book of the Dead or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Most people do not like discussing death. But there are Tibetan Buddhist practices that are heavily linked to death.

    You’re right living and dying are reflections of similar phenomenon. Sleeping is considered to be a state similar to death. The quality of your sleep is considered a reflection of your practices.

    Compassion is a big component that many masters discuss with building a level of attainment.

    Who knew that the Tibetan Book of the Dead, while being a valuable incentive for those living during a time of death and dying without the will to enlightenment, also serves as a reference and source of comfort for the living in terms of its provisional tenets at a time of social loss, must, as well, be seen as a last-ditch device for the dying by its upholding the possibility of sudden enlightenment for those with the karmic potential at the time of their death, in order to see essence without needlessly having to experience the bardic realm when the veil between Creation and Nonorigination finally dissolves.

    Dear Helcat, I speak from the perspective of enlightenment. Buddhas aren’t to be counted because they are numberless. Even so, in terms of the one who sees essence by virtue of the Absolute, no buddha can reach you there, anyway. So much for buddhas. What about those who, when they see a buddha in the street, can kill a buddha; when they see their lover, can kill their lover; when they see their selfish habit-induced views of self and other, right and wrong, good and bad, they can kill such views. That’s true liberation. Liberation is not buddhist nor is it buddhism. Buddhas aren’t buddhist. Such is complete reality.

    No buddha, much less Buddhism, ever invent enlightenment. Your own mind right now is your inconceivable nature, which isn’t a matter of belief. Why? It’s your own mind right now, which is awareness, nonoriginated. This means that awareness (being your nature) isn’t created. So belief, per se, be it buddhist or otherwise, has no value in the face of direct experience. Why don’t people see? They do, but due to the fact that seeing relative to the person isn’t reality, such seeing isn’t real. Real seeing is transcendent. That doesn’t mean to say that it’s different, it’s just not bound by karma. That’s transcendent. Seeing with the awakened Dharma Eye, people do not go along with birth and death (cyclic situational and karmic change), they abide in nonorigination. Delusion and reality actually look exactly the same simply because they are the same. What’s different?

    Seeing.

    I have to say that the idea about you starting your own thread using your own words to discuss your experience of the early stages of learning buddhism is an excellent idea, because rebutting the concepts in your above quote would be completely off topic relative to the OP.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by deci.
    #398949
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Deci

    Who knew that the Tibetan Book of the Dead, while being a valuable incentive for those living during a time of death and dying without the will to enlightenment, also serves as a reference and source of comfort for the living in terms of its provisional tenets at a time of social loss, must, as well, be seen as a last-ditch device for the dying by its upholding the possibility of sudden enlightenment for those with the karmic potential at the time of their death, in order to see essence without needlessly having to experience the bardic realm when the veil between Creation and Nonorigination finally dissolves.

    This is a reductive perspective which honestly seems dismissive of well respected books written by well respected masters. Isn’t it possible that monks trained in Buddhism for their lives actually have a deeper understanding than a layman?

    You’re right Buddhism didn’t invent enlightenment. Many generations of Buddhist practitioners just dedicated their lives to chronicling the process because the main principles involve overcoming suffering and should be shared with humanity. Even suffering itself is based on perspective. If you alter your perspective you no longer suffer. Though this might require action or acceptance.

    From experience, I can understand that it can take practice to get to a state of non-practice. A beginner at meditation may struggle to sit and do nothing due to the discomfort with thoughts originating from their own mind. Personally, I struggled to do breathing meditation initially due to trauma. I had to learn other kinds of meditation before I was comfortable enough with the practice to overcome that trauma response. It is very difficult for people to incorporate mindfulness into their everyday lives without practicing meditation.

    #398955
    Peter
    Participant

    “Before one studies Zen, “mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.” ― Dōgen

    Thus we return home and see it for the first time.

    What does it mean to be enlightened? To ‘see’ life as it is? Then the challenge would be how we respond to that Do we respond with a detachment leading to indifference or a Detachment that remains fully engaged. The problem of ‘sudden awakening’ what do we do when such a thing is experienced?

    In the wisdom traditions its important to remember that words our symbols (the finger that points to the moon is not the moon)  thus the word death can be physical death and or phycological death.

    With regards to the book of the dead and reincarnation one could read it as pointing to the now. That we die and are reincarnated many times in a life.  Enlightenment possible with every breath as is rebirth to a lower state of awareness. A ‘sudden awakening‘ could be followed by a ‘sudden un-awakening’

    Many associate justice with the word Karma. A person gets what coming to them. Such a desire that karma be justice would be bad karma. 🙂

    What is Karma?

    We see the world as we are not as it is. Karma the filters/memory through which we see through. Sadhguru argues Karma is memory. “karma is like old software that you have written for yourself unconsciously. And, of course, you’re updating it on a daily basis! Depending on the type of physical, mental, and energetic actions you perform, you write your software. Once that software is written, your whole system functions accordingly. Based on the information from the past, certain memory patterns keep recurring. Now your life turns habitual, repetitive, and cyclical. Over

    Moments of enlightenment are moments when Identity (ego) is detached from memory. One experiences the moment as it is without filters. The martial artist trains so that their reactions are responses. The dancer dances when they stop trying to dance. They ‘forget’ what they learned (no memory)  and allow what the leaned to happen.  The act of free will is a forgetting. detachment, letting go… what ever words work for you,  of will.  = Sudden problems after awakening. Being, Allowing… while  remaining fully engage with life as it shows up.

    And perhaps one step further…. “KNOW ” it as Love. Mountains are mountains and waters are waters. You are the mountain, you are the river. ..

    #398959
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Peter!

    Jiddu Krishnamurti has a very interesting definition of enlightenment. He describes enlightenment using a concept of violence and non-violence. If a violent feeling arises and is surpressed this creates conflict.

    He considers enlightenment to be viewing emotions without judgement or thought. This IMMEDIATE action of non-judgment without thought as feelings arise is considered to be enlightenment. This immediacy is very important because it would mean that you already have to be in a state of meditation as feelings arise otherwise thoughts, attachment and conflict would occur.

    He also suggests that anyone claiming to be enlightened is not, as ego is what claims enlightenment.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Helcat.
    #398964
    Peter
    Participant

    That’s Interesting Helcat

    He also suggests that anyone claiming to be enlightened is not, as ego is what claims enlightenment.

    I used to joke that their was a moment in my youth when I was Hip (I’m old) Only the moment I thought I was Hip I no longer was. I feel the same way about those who use the word Woke (the new word for Hip. Nothing new under the sun) 🙂
    Didn’t take long for the word Woke not to mean anything and become a divisive label

    For many the practice detachment has been a about detachment from desire. No desire = no suffering. Probably true only I don’t see how such a practice of detachment would not end in indifference and or unconsciousness.

    For other the practice of detachment is a detachment from ego or negation of ego. In the east their is a tendency to negate ego/individual  and in the west to over identify with ego/individual.  I think the idea of a detachment from ego is really difficult due to language. Try expressing a experience to yourself or others with out a concept of I.
    I would argue that the ego plays a important role in the experience of a moment. When we nullify it we lose that and suffer, when we over identify with it we suffer.  I prefer the word identity to ego for that reason. I get to engage the moment while avoid attaching it to my identity and add unnecessary karma. (I have had moments where I can do this though,,, but if honest I suspect consciously and or unconsciously there are times when I want to attach and experience the energy that creates. But that might be my karma) 🙂

    viewing emotions without judgement or thought

    A healthy detachment from emotions without judgment makes sense. To feel what you feel and letting them flow vice clinging to them and adding unnecessary karma. When you make judgments we tend to attach the judgment to ego/identity so  I might go a step further then Jiddu definition and say enlightenment is the art of viewing the moment as it is, which includes the emotions without, attachment of judgment. Without attachment to identity and or sense of self while fully engaging with Life.

    To joyfully participate in the sorrows of the world“. So far every wisdom tradition I have come across asks that question. Can you engage fully in life, as it is, the wonder and the horror joyfully? Can that be Love? My intuition is that a experience of enlightenment would involve such a realization.

    What is the ‘I’ that could experience such a no-thing, perhaps no ‘I’ at all.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Peter.
    #398995
    Peter
    Participant

    A friend of mine had a experience/vision in which she felt connected to every thing. She described it as being very vivid, colorful… and being loved, of being Love.  She didn’t use the words enlightened.  She told me that as time passed she fell into depression. How to return and hold on to such a experience. She  suspected part of the problem was the holding on which was really a desire to remain. The view from the top of a mountain is wonderful but the oxygen is thin. We aren’t intended to live onto a mountain.

    I had a experience equally vivid but not colorful as my experience was complete darkness/emptiness. A emptiness in which there was no fear, no anxiety, a awareness of everything which was no-thing. Perhaps pure consciousness. Like my friend everything/no-thing connected….

    And then I thought “I”.

    Their is a scene in the Matrix where Neo  enters the void of the matrix (here the void was white) and rows of clothes and weapons appear. The racks coming from nowhere and whizzing by Neo only stopping when he selects a item until he is fully dressed. Once dressed he enters the ‘world of the matrix’

    That was what it was like the moment I thought “I” a peace of “clothing” (memory of identity) thrust onto me, forming me and pushed me from the void into the “waking”  world.

    With the thought of “I” I remember thinking Nooooooo!!!! as I left the bliss of emptiness and experience of everything, clothing myself in my fears, hopes, anxiety… memory of I.

    My memory forming my physical and mental bodies and pulling/pushing me into, I will use the words “waken world”.  Oh how I wanted to longed to go back, longed for home, but life is experienced in the matrix and I was formed to experience it.

    I didn’t fall into depression… or maybe I have at times. No experience as been more vivid to my mind

    The moment I think “I”…. I wonder if the clothes (and weapons) were chosen by me or for me?

    The moment I thought “I”, I thought Noooo… what if I would have thought Yes?

     

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Peter.
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