November 21, 2014 at 10:57 pm #68221
First off, let me ask you this. If you had the choice to either be happy and excited towards something in life as opposed to just having no feelings of pleasure or excitement whatsoever with nothing more than just a good thought towards these things in life, which would you choose? I think it’s quite obvious you would choose to feel happy and excited which proves right here that pleasure is far better and superior to mere thoughts alone. Or, at least, the combination of having both good thoughts and pleasure in your life is far better and superior to just having these thoughts alone with no pleasure at all.
But you then might counter my argument by asking me something such as that if you had the choice as to feel happy and excited towards harming others or to have no feelings of pleasure whatsoever and instead help others through just mere thoughts alone, which would you choose? You then might say that having no pleasure and instead helping others through moral thoughts would be what is far better and superior. But here again, I will counter this as well by asking you that if you had the choice as to whether to feel happy and excited towards helping others and help these people out through your pleasure and excitement or to instead have no pleasure or excitement whatsoever and instead help these people out through just thoughts alone, which would you choose? I think it’s quite obvious you would choose to help others through your pleasure.
So it appears as though having both morality and pleasure in your life is the ultimate combination. But when the choice comes as to whether you would choose to have pleasure or instead morality, that this is something subjective and that there would be many people who would instead choose to be a moral person with no pleasure who helps others instead of being someone who obtains pleasure from harming others. However, when the choice comes to you already being the best moral person you could ever be and that if you had the choice as to whether to just be this moral person with no pleasure in your life or to be both this best moral person you could ever be while having pleasure in your life, that people would instead choose the combination of both being this moral person with pleasure.
Sure, there could be more levels of moral greatness and other forms of greatness that this person could achieve with no pleasure. But if I had to ask him/her as to whether he/she would want to have much pleasure in his/her life in addition and that this wouldn’t take away from his/her greatness and won’t take away from him/her achieving more greatness, then that is when this person would choose to have pleasure in his/her life in addition. I know that if I had my full pleasure back in life, that this would not make me or my life less great. It would make me even greater. As a matter of fact, having suffering, depression, and a lack of pleasure in your life only serves to bring you down and hold you back from you and your lives being that much greater regardless of how great you become and regardless of how much great things you do in your life through your suffering, depression, and lack of pleasure. Suffering, depression, and a lack of pleasure can even make you a worse person who is less compassionate and less understanding towards other people who finds bad meaning in his/her life. So you can achieve a higher level of greatness, be a more compassionate and understanding person, and do more great things in your life under the right circumstances if you instead had much pleasure in your life and little suffering and depression in your life.
Many people might claim that the only true way to be a more compassionate and understanding person and do more great things in life as well as help more people would be through your suffering, depression, and lack of pleasure. But this is false because you can change your attitude in order to become a better compassionate and understanding person at any given personal level since your attitude and actions are things you can change by will. You also don’t need depression, suffering, and a lack of pleasure in order to do more great things in life and help even more people out. There are people who go through a great amount of suffering and despair and yet, they do not become more compassionate or become a better person in any other sense. As a matter of fact, they can become less compassionate even towards others who suffer the same things and they instead take out their suffering on other people. This would be because they have refused to change their attitude in becoming a better person and have refused to become better in any other sense through other means in life besides suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure. Therefore, since this holds true, the opposite would hold true as well in that people who have very little suffering and despair in their lives can change their attitude in becoming a better person and better in other ways through other means in life than what suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure can achieve.
Things such as going through physical torture through physical training in the military, this would have the greater physical benefit. But as for greater mental benefits, you can achieve these through other means in life besides depression and anhedonia (lack of pleasure). As a matter of fact, depression and anhedonia have no greater benefit than living a life of much pleasure and are nothing but pointless misery.
So if you had no pleasure in your life and had much suffering and despair in your life, you could tell yourself things such as that you would be the much better and greater person than if you were someone who had pleasure in life since you would be helping others, doing great things in your life, and being more compassionate and understanding the suffering and lack of pleasure of others through your suffering and lack of pleasure. But here I will ask you, now that you’ve achieved this level of greatness in your life through your suffering and lack of pleasure, would you prefer now to remain this way or to instead remain just as great, but also have full pleasure and no more suffering in your life in addition? That having this full pleasure in your life with no suffering will not take away from your greatness, will not make you help/understand less people than you ever would through having suffering and no pleasure in life, and won’t make you do less great things in life. Therefore, which would you choose?
Again, I’m quite sure you would choose to have full pleasure in life with no suffering in addition to your greatness. Although there might be some people who would get very bored or go insane from living a life of pure bliss, this would not happen to me at all since I find that the only greatest life there is would be living a life of much pleasure and as little suffering as possible while still being a full moral and understanding/compassionate person. So the fact that people would prefer to have much pleasure and as little suffering as possible in addition to their greatness, this means that having much pleasure and little suffering in addition to their greatness is something even greater and would make these people even greater than if they still had a lack of pleasure and still had suffering and depression in their lives. This would make them greater people and would make their lives greater.
So as you can see here, you can be great all you want, achieve all the benefits you want, and help others and do great things in your life as much as you can through your suffering and lack of pleasure (anhedonia) in your life as well as your depression. But you and your life will never be as great as it would be if you had much pleasure and very little suffering/depression in your life in addition to your achieved greatness and in addition to your achieved benefits. Therefore, all the greatest people in history who struggled with depression, suffering, and anhedonia were never as great as they would be if they didn’t have any of those struggles in their lives. They might have become great and achieved benefits through their struggles. But they and their lives would never be as great if they instead had much pleasure in their lives with as little suffering as possible in addition to their achieved greatness and in addition to their achieved benefits.
I gave an example before of how the greatest composers could of been even greater if they had their full pleasure in life rather than depression and a lack of pleasure which was that composers not only use their knowledge of music alone to compose music, but they also tap into their emotions in order to come up with emotionally powerful compositions. However, depression and anhedonia are not classified as emotions at all. They are the taking away of your pleasure and the taking away of your other emotions. Therefore, this is why these great composers were not as great as they would of been if they had their full pleasure since depression and anhedonia are not emotions to channel and tap into at all.
Sure, you can create great compositions through intelligence alone and with vast knowledge of how music works and such. But it wouldn’t be as great as if you had both this intelligence and knowledge as well as your pleasure and other emotions to tap into. Composers also tap into other emotions besides pleasure such as anger and sadness. However, these are emotions that feel bad and you can create great tragic, gothic, and dark compositions through pure pleasure alone (the pleasure in dark, gothic, and tragic things) and it is unnecessary to have any sort of bad unpleasant feelings and emotions in your life. These tragic, gothic, and dark compositions can be just as great (and even greater) if you created them through pure pleasure alone along with your knowledge of music theory as opposed to them being created through your feelings such as rage and sadness with your knowledge of music theory.
As a matter of fact, if having much pleasure and little suffering/depression in their lives wouldn’t take away from the greatness at all of the greatest people in history, then this would mean that their depression, suffering, and lack of pleasure didn’t make them any greater at all either. It means that they could of been just as great (and perhaps greater) under the right circumstances through having much pleasure and very little suffering and depression in their lives since the combination of their already-established greatness in addition to having much pleasure and little suffering and depression is the ultimate combination that would make them even greater. Therefore, I and many other people who suffer from depression and anhedonia (lack of pleasure) are inferior with inferior lives compared to our much greater counterparts (the people we would of been if we instead had our full pleasure in life with little suffering in addition to our achieved greatness and in addition to our achieved benefits). We are also inferior with inferior lives compared to those who do have their full pleasure in life with little suffering and little to no depression in addition to their achieved greatness and benefits such as compassion and many other such positive forms of greatness and benefits.
Now some people might tell me that compassionate and understanding people who live their lives with much pleasure and very little suffering and depression, that these people do not exist since you can only be a better compassionate and understanding person through having gone through suffering, depression, and a lack of pleasure. But you would be false here in saying this. I am one of those happy compassionate and understanding people who once existed. I had my full pleasure in life in the past who was still a fully compassionate and understanding person. As a matter of fact, the depression and anhedonia I am having now only makes me feel less compassionate and less understanding (“indifferent” and “hopeless”) and me and my life are now wasted away and down the drain here.
Therefore, as you can clearly see, life, is in fact, all about perfection and living a perfectly happy life of no suffering and no depression regardless of the fact that this is not how this life works. Some people might tell me that living a life of pure bliss with no suffering and no depression is nothing more than a fantasy and they would be right. However, life is still all about living a perfectly happy life with no suffering and no depression anyway. Life is about being perfectly happy despite the fact that this is impossible and that there is no way to achieve that.
You might then say something to me such as that “Thinking your life should be a certain way when it can never be that way is not going to help you get any better in life.” Although thinking that life is about being perfectly happy when that’s not how life works might very well make some people feel worse, this doesn’t make it worse for me. As a matter of fact, I think it actually makes me feel a little less depressed. For example, if someone told me something such as that “Life is about suffering and depression, so deal with it!” This message would be applied to my life itself and would make me feel worse. However, if I told myself the message such as that “This life is meant to be a perfectly happy fantasy world and I am just simply suffering and having depression in a life that is meant to be perfect and perfectly happy despite the fact that this life is not perfect,” this would actually make me feel less depressed and less enraged. It would give my life a perfect happy fantasy-feel and meaning to it rather than the hopeless and discouraging messages that others might propose which instead have a bad and hopeless reality-feel and meaning to them.
Based on everything I’ve said here, a life of pure bliss with no suffering and no depression is the only greatest life there is and is the only thing that would make you the greatest person. No one should want any depression or anhedonia (lack of pleasure) in his/her life whatsoever since it is all pointless and has no greater benefit than living a life of pure bliss. So having physical and emotional problems only makes you an emotional and physical slave to these problems and prevents you from being a metaphorically spoken god who dominates over his/her life through pure pleasure alone with no suffering or depression in his/her life. Since you are a slave to these problems, then that makes you inferior and the opposite of a “god” regardless of what you think otherwise. Only complete masters right here over their lives are the most superior in the sense of having full pleasure in life and dominating over their lives through pure pleasure alone with no suffering and no depression in his/her life. This is the only thing that defines a truly great person and a true master and a “god” in his/her life.
Some people would say that living a life of pure bliss would cause a chemical tolerance in your brain and that your pleasure would eventually fade out anyway, thus rendering a perfectly happy life impossible. However, there might be a way to live a perfectly happy life through science in the future in which our brains no longer have such tolerance and we are able to somehow live perfectly happy lives free of suffering and depression.
Some people would also say that without pain and suffering, then there can be no pleasure. But this would be false. A baby can be born into this world without having yet experienced pain or suffering and immediately feel happiness and love being in the arms of a mother. This baby would be able to then experience full happiness and love in life having no future pain or suffering as well. The only way for him/her to experience less pleasure in life is for him/her to develop a sense of value towards having struggles and suffering in life and then having less value towards living a life of pure pleasure with no struggles and suffering as a result. That, or just being bored living such a nice happy life which are both things that would never happen to me since I find great value living a perfect happy life. As a matter of fact, babies can even experience pleasure being in the womb without any pain or suffering ever happening to them yet.
As for something one might say such as that there would be no need for the greatest composers to even compose in the first place or for the greatest people in history to do great things in the first place if they had full pleasure in life with little to no suffering and depression in their lives, this would also be false. You can still do even more great things and be much more motivated to do great things in your life anyway knowing that your life is one of pure bliss and you can do even more great things in your life as a means of expressing your great perfect life through much more motivation and pure bliss. You can also grow even more as a person by changing your attitude and other things besides depression and anhedonia. So you can grow much more as a person as opposed to if you had depression and anhedonia in your life.
One last very important thing I would like to add is that some people would say that the mind is sometimes something that can never recover or even fully recover its ability to experience pleasure and that I am just going to have to be content with that and live my life accepting that my pleasure might never recover and might never fully recover. But I ask you. Do you really think the mind is that pathetic? The mind is truly an amazing complex organ and I would thus be infuriated if it were that pathetic. Also, do you really think I am so inferior and pathetic as to live my life being content and accepting my severe loss of pleasure (accepting that it might never get better or fully recover) and to live my life as an utterly inferior human being with a worthless life regardless of how great and worthwhile others think I am as a person despite my loss of pleasure? As I said before, my personal experience of pleasure was so great and profound and my personal experience now of depression and anhedonia is the worst experience for me and nothing can change that to the point where I would be content with living an entire life of very little to no pleasure. To me, my life of full pleasure that I once had before is the only life for me and I am not someone who is so inferior and pathetic as to accept and be content with a lifelong loss of pleasure. Therefore, I am absolutely intent on regaining my lost life of full pleasure no matter what since it is the only life for me that is of immense value and worth living.November 21, 2014 at 11:13 pm #68223
Finally, if you are also going to ask how can one even live and be content and happy with living a life of pure bliss with no suffering and depression in his/her life? The answer to that would be that people such as me have immense hatred towards suffering, despair, and a lack of pleasure in life and immense hatred towards finding any sort of meaning in any of those things to the point where people such as me would, in fact, be completely happy and content with living a life of pure bliss. It’s not only our immense value towards living such a life of pure bliss that would allow us to fully be happy and content living such a life of pure bliss, but it is also our immense loathing and hatred towards living a life of suffering and despair that would also allow us to be fully happy and fully content living such a life of pure bliss as well.
November 22, 2014 at 12:19 am #68226
- This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Matt.
Now the reason you would be inferior if you had depression and/or anhedonia is that people such as us experienced pleasure so profoundly and meaningful that we have embraced such feelings of pleasure (pleasure being all good feelings including love) as a vital part of who we are as people. Therefore, to lose such feelings would deem you as an utterly inferior human being and would also deem your life as completely worthless and inferior as well. Feelings of pleasure are a vital part of who we are as human beings (much more important, greater, and far superior to our personality, attitude, and other characteristics as human beings). So this is why you would be utterly inferior if you were to lose such feelings.
November 22, 2014 at 1:09 am #68228
- This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Matt.
Your conscious is what makes you “you” since it is really who you are as a person. Therefore, since pleasure is also a part of your conscious because your conscious is all sensations and such you can experience, then to lose a very vital part of your conscious (which would be your pleasure), this would make you a lesser person.November 22, 2014 at 8:15 am #68238JaniceParticipant
Hey Matt, I’m sorry you’re struggling with depression. This must be really hard, especially because you say you’ve lived a very happy life before. Let me start off by saying that I am sure you can live a happier life again.
I took the time to read through your thoughts and can see that you took some time to reach your conclusions. However, I’d like to challenge a few of your thoughts if you will:
“Therefore, I and many other people who suffer from depression and anhedonia (lack of pleasure) are inferior with inferior lives compared to our much greater counterparts (the people we would of been if we instead had our full pleasure in life with little suffering in addition to our achieved greatness and in addition to our achieved benefits). We are also inferior with inferior lives compared to those who do have their full pleasure in life with little suffering and little to no depression in addition to their achieved greatness and benefits such as compassion and many other such positive forms of greatness and benefits.”
To me, this way of perceiving people is not very compassionate nor great. How can any person even be inferior? Why do we have to measure up in absolute greatness, accomplishments or happiness? How can that even be objectively measured? And what is greatness anyway? Is being great at music better than being great at selling books? Or the other way around?
I think we all come with different potentials. Who and how we are is a product of our genes, the things we’ve experienced, how we were raised, the encounters we’ve had etc. And because of these factors it can be very hard for some of us to be e.g. compassionate or accomplish things. And the same goes for feeling pleasure. I think most people are trying to be the best they can at that time. And for some it stops at with little compassion or pleasure because they just can’t do it differently at that moment.
But none of this makes anyone more or less inferior than anyone else. It just makes them who they are.
I think you need to realize the same about your own situation. I think you should accept that you’re just feeling depressed and lack pleasure at the moment. You said yourself how you notice it’s making it harder for you to be compassionate. It’s hard to be depressed so don’t view yourself as an inferior human being. View yourself as someone who is really struggling at the moment. And you’re still doing what you can with what you have. And I’m not suggesting, as you had implied in your text, that you should accept that you’re depressed now and that’s the end of the story. I think if you move from a place of accepting that you’re feeling anhedonic right now, you may lose some of the additional pain of not having happiness anymore. And it might help you in finding pleasure again in the future. I believe that you are capable of experiencing happiness again.
But just accept that you’re not doing so right now. And maybe strive for absolute bliss might be setting the expectations too high?
You say: “Some people would also say that without pain and suffering, then there can be no pleasure. But this would be false. A baby can be born into this world without having yet experienced pain or suffering and immediately feel happiness and love being in the arms of a mother.”
Actually, when a baby is born, it’s quite likely a very horrible and many hold even traumatic experience. The baby leaves the known, warm, dark womb only to be forcefully pushed outside into a cold, noisy, bright, unknown world.
We can only experience the day as bright because we know night. And we value a warm tea much more after we’ve just escaped the cold rain.
I can sense that this is a very personal issue for you and so I hope I didn’t step on your toes here. From reading this I also get the vibe that you’re a great person and I truly hope you can find your pleasure again. May I ask for how long you’ve been struggling with depression?
Much loveOctober 4, 2016 at 4:50 pm #117197manbuddhaParticipant
Matt, I’m sorry also to hear how you were going through depression. I just logged on to say that no condition is permanent and I fully believe that you will experience happiness and cheerfulness again.
I can see that you are someone who really values the power of logic and looks to apply it. Therefore, You must then take some pride in that and feel good about yourself because real logic is one of the keys to understanding our world. Yet not everyone has it in them to innately value logic.
Janice, Janice, please know that I am sitting here praying that you may be blessed, and blessed so so abundantly because you have coronated love.
Hugs, hugsOctober 4, 2016 at 7:43 pm #117210Nina SakuraParticipant
Matt, sorry about your current state of depression. I don’t have any profound answers for your analysis except that the feelings and thoughts of despair, rumination are the parcel of depression. You aren’t inferior for having depression just like someone isn’t inferior for having a broken leg or a cold. It’s a medical illness.October 5, 2016 at 3:30 am #117235VJParticipant
I understand that you may be suffering from depression, but you need not anymore.
It’s no coincidence that you opened up this thread two years ago (when I was not a member on this site) and now because manbuddha (Thanks) responded to this thread the post has come up on top of the site’s list of current activities where I came across it and would be able to suggest you something….effective.
Please visit the below link and straightaway start off with the action point (the book and the technique)
The official site for the Healing Codes is at -> www(dot)thehealingcodes(dot)com
The book has everything you need but of course if you do not want to wait till you finish the book and have the required financial capabilities then you can also consider Personal Coaching on this process, which is done by a Certified Healing Codes Practitioner. You will get all of that information from their official website.
I’m not exaggerating but you surely will be able to enjoy life to its fullest, once again.