August 25, 2016 at 12:40 pm #113268Call Me IshmaelParticipant
I hope all works out well for you, Butterfly.
CMIAugust 26, 2016 at 10:14 am #113335
CMI – Thank you
Also ANITA if you could chime in on this.
So again, I know this was not a healthy relationship. (Push/Pull, Hot & Cold, “Ghosting” But other than that he was never “ABUSIVE” per se. Not Physically ever. Emotionally I guess. And although I KNOW he is damaged and likely emotionally unavailable he does have SOME good qualities: funny, smart, handy, a great cook, etc. We could and used to talk for HOURS about everything under the son (one reason I stayed so long). So I say all that so say this: I am still doing no contact and today will make three weeks on my end. I am trying my best and I believe well on my way to 30 days (or more) no contact which I have never done before. My question is: Once he is OUT of my system completely and I can look at him for WHO he really is. Can I ever be “friends” with him? Like start over (NO PHYSICAL contact of course) but occasional texts or phone calls just to chat? One thing I did not mention before is he has a deadly disease and I would HATE to not know if he passed away. I know it’s crazy that I still care but I do care about him as a person (I am overly empathetic) I am a true Pisces! Please any feedback from anyone would help. Thank you!
ButterflyAugust 26, 2016 at 6:56 pm #113368
What deadly disease is he suffering from? You didn’t mention such before..?
anitaAugust 27, 2016 at 10:35 am #113440Call Me IshmaelParticipant
As one who has experienced the push-pull cycle: the negative splitting, devaluation, projection, false accusations, blame, gaslighting, hiding, lies (to me, and about me to others), anger, hatefulness, being ignored, ghosting, and multiple “endings” of the relationship associated with the push cycle; and the positive splitting, and sham of mirroring and idealization, and the apparently sincere love and desire for intimacy associated with the pull cycle, I can say that I definitely felt, and definitely was, emotionally abused. The fact that her behavior was facilitated by a personality disorder did not mitigate her culpability in the matter, and it didn’t make it any less wrong or damaging. Abuse is abuse.
Would you agree?
All of the things I liked about her, and all of the good times she and I had together, the wonderfully close, intimate, perhaps even sublime moments we shared (at least as far as I felt them) also did not negate her abuse of me, or mitigate the damaging effects her abuse had on me and the relationship. All of her behaviors and actions (negative and positive, constructive and destructive) must be considered when weighing the benefit of her being in my life. In her case, I don’t need to look any further than her intentional abuse of me to know that the relationship was not beneficial.
Do you see your situation differently?
As I mentioned in one of my previous replies, in my research of personality disorders, I found that folks with such disorders are known to misrepresent their past experiences to gain and exploit sympathy, empathy, and compassion. Along with this, they may also claim life threatening or terminal illnesses to achieve the same ends. If you did not see any kind of evidence that he has a deadly disease e.g. written diagnoses from doctors, doctor bills for procedures related to the illness, the pattern of regular, on-going therapies or treatments related to the illness, or on-going prescriptions for medications related to the illness, I suggest you consider the claim with healthy skepticism.
If he does indeed have a deadly disease, that still doesn’t excuse abuse, or mitigate its effects.
Regarding the possibility of you being able to return to being friends with him, or starting over, I can only use my own experiences with my ex-girlfriend to consider the benefit of those possibilities for you. From my point of view, the only way being friends or starting over would ever be a beneficial thing would be for her to make HUGE strides in her therapy, and for her to have fully functioning coping skills that she diligently used. Even then, those things wouldn’t happen overnight, or any time soon. The earliest I could imagine that happening would be five or more years down the road. Since she claimed to dislike her therapy, and claimed that it didn’t do her any good, and claimed to have no faith in it, and that she didn’t want to put the effort into it anymore, I predict that in reality it would take much more than five years, possibly 10 or more years, for her to be able to function positively and constructively in a mutually beneficial relationship with me, as friends or more. Until then, however, there would be no benefit for me to be in a relationship of any kind with her. She would still be unable to control her destructive and abusive behavior. Add to that the fact that I am still mourning the loss of the illusion of our love, and that I don’t know how long it will take for me to get over that, I seriously doubt that any good would come of us starting over before she is “well.”
What are your thoughts regarding the possibilities of him being able to participate in a mutually beneficial relationship with you?
Until the relationship has a very real possibility of being a non-abusive, beneficial thing for you, based on the above, and the things I asked you to consider in my previous responses to you, and for what it may be worth, I continue to encourage you maintain no contact with him.
CMIAugust 27, 2016 at 10:52 pm #113475helleiaParticipant
I’ve had a similar experience emotion-wise. I mean, I didn’t have a relationship with this person, but it got close to that.
I’m still at the point where I want to know why the person is like that, but I’ve accepted that I’ll never get the answer from him. However, it would be nice if we can hear the viewpoints of similar people, such as a guy that is similar to the guy that you’ve been talking about. Sometimes I think about asking about my guy with people who also knew him. Sometimes they don’t know that much, and sometimes they’ve seen other sides, and it makes me think “no fair! I wanted it to be as simple as that!”
Seriously, is there no one, no one at all, that posted an article here or there somewhere that explains the behavior of PEOPLE LIKE THAT?
At least I no longer and will not, ever, allow myself to message him. He’s actually a lot more silent than I, anyway, so it would only make a fool of myself. I’ve only ever sent messages with good-intent, but he’d only sporadically reciprocate and confuse me, occasionally being mean, and dodging questions, while getting information out of me. There were times when he was nice. And I feel stupid to have fallen in love with him of all people. And I wonder if he feels the same way about me. That he also felt stupid for ever considering giving attention to the likes of me.August 28, 2016 at 12:16 pm #113518
Did you make it up, that your ex boyfriend has a deadly disease? As your effort to feel more comfortable about re-connecting with him, perhaps? I am asking because him having a deadly disease is not congruent with your previous posts where you wrote that you had long plans for him and you, a happily-ever-after future.
If so, and if you feel uncomfortable about having misrepresented the truth this way, please return to your thread. I will not negatively criticize you for having done so. If your struggle continues, I would like to attempt yet again to be helpful.
anitaAugust 28, 2016 at 6:40 pm #113541jeenaParticipant
I like what you said “close the door on your own hope”. That’s brilliant.August 28, 2016 at 7:07 pm #113542
Hello, No absolutely not I did not make it up. He has Sickle Cell Anemia which is normally deadly but the age for death varies. I believe now its can range from about 17yr – 55yrs old. He is not a young man so feasibly he could die at any time. He keeps himself in good shape so I did not like to think negatively But I did think that maybe it was PART of the reason that he would ghost out on me because he never really learned to form healthy bonds with people. Although he never uses his illness as an excuse for anything except being tired sometimes. I personally believe that he lived his life recklessly early for NO fear of the or a future. I would NEVER make anything like that up. But after the text he sent I blocked him again and I have not heard from him. I am continuing to make ME better and I am working HARD on moving on with my life. BUT I do have the desire to “check on him” still. Which I know I should not. I do and would appreciate your help. Thank you.
ButterflyAugust 28, 2016 at 7:11 pm #113543
I did get and read your response which is very insightful. I had a busy weekend and no change to respond. I will definitely respond tomorrow. Thank you.
ButterflyAugust 29, 2016 at 8:46 am #113591
In Wikipedia it reads about sickle cell disease (SCD): “The average life expectancy in the developed world is 40 to 60 years…The terms “‘sickle-cell crisis’ or ‘sickling crisis’ may be used to describe several independent acute conditions occurring in patients with SCD. SCD results in anemia and crises that could be of many types…(that)last between five and seven days” One of those crises is “The vaso-occlusive crisis” where the sickle-shaped red blood cells obstruct capillaries and restrict blood flow to an organ resulting in ischaemia (inadequate blood supply to an organ), pain, necrosis, and often organ damage” A second most common complication for people with SCD is “Acute chest syndrome” which “is defined by at least two of the following signs or symptoms: chest pain, fever, pulmonary infiltrate or focal abnormality, respiratory symptoms, or hypoxemia(oxygen deficiency).”
Butterfly, his disease is very serious, not only for shortening a person’s life but in the quality of life. If he has been suffering from those crises, and knowing there is no cure for his disease, of course, this disease would have a huge affect and effect on his attitude and behaviors.
Keep in mind that he is a physically sick man who needs calm in his life. We talked about the Roller-Coaster Dynamic before. It is not good for him either to be on such a ride. So not only do you owe yourself to stay away from him, but you owe him the same as well. Having relationship trouble is not good for him either.
anitaAugust 29, 2016 at 1:49 pm #113649biancafioreParticipant
I think it sounds like “narcissist abuse.” Pushing and pulling, ghosting, devaluing. It’s textbook “Narcissist” behaviorAugust 31, 2016 at 9:49 am #113834
In the time we were together I only witnessed him have a mild crisis once. He would tell me about other crisis that put him in the hospital but not much. He makes it seem like he does pretty good in “controlling” it as much as he can i guess. But i NEVER did anything to stress him. HE caused all the negative situations in our relationship. I would try my BEST to make him happy. So all of the ups & downs were caused by him. I never understood why he would cause the unnecessary stress on either of us. I have been doing VERY well with NC. I have not responded to ANY of the 12 texts he has sent in the past several weeks. But again I must be honest when I say at times I DO miss him (The nice side) and would liked to be able to have parted ways in a nice way rather than him blaming me for “ignoring” him. He REALLY acts like he doesn’t understand WHY I had to walk away. It’s crazy to me that he see nothing wrong with his actions. he is acting VERY immature. I wish he would just sincerely apologize and change is his, BUT I can’t concern myself with that I know. I just hate still caring about his well-being. I am so confused about whether he actually cared for mine at all. If he doesn’t care about me at all why won’t he just leave me alone and if he does why won’t he just leave me alone and stop being mean or just swallow his pride and apologize?
ButterflyAugust 31, 2016 at 10:38 am #113839
I do agree with you that all of that is emotional abuse. Did she admit to it? My problem is, he will NOT admit any guilt at all. He is STILL texting me blaming me and being mean because I am still ignoring him. I am torn with that.
I must admit that I learned ALOT in this relationship. Good and bad. I learned I need to set boundaries and still to them. I learned what I should and shouldn’t be willing to put up with. BUT I do miss the GOOD things about him. BUT are they enough to ever even be his friend again? Still torn on that but probably no unless he changed which only GOD knows if that would ever happen or not.
I agree with you that he may have misrepresented some of his past experiences. He blames EVERYONE else but takes only little responsibility in things. (HE takes NONE with me). He does actually have the disease I know that for a fact I have seen his hospital paperwork with diagnosis and I have actually witnessed him have a mild crisis. So, that part is true. BUT I think is has ALOT to do with why he behaves the way his does. He see NO FUTURE so he lives wrecklessly for NO FEAR of a future. But you are right it in NO way excuses his behavior.
Honestly, I don’t know. Because he ACTS like there is nothing wrong with his behavior. I don’t actually know if he KNOWS he is a jerk or not? I can only assume he has to to a certain extent. BUT I doubt he is willing to change. He CLAIMED he loved me and cared about me but to this date he has YET to call an sincerely apology for his behavior. Instead he has over the last few weeks randomly text me texts which have TRIED to push my buttons blaming me. Saying things like “I am f*cked up” for not speaking to him, and I wasn’t worth instroducing to his kids, and I need to work on myself and my issues and He doesn’t care about me etc. But again if you think these things then WHY are you still trying to contact me and apparently mad because I am ignoring you? Is it because previously he was controlling me and no matter had BAD he treated me I always came back but not NOW. IS he actually afraid to lose me or just afraid to lose control of the situation? I know he would NEVER seek therapy as again he sees nothing wrong with his behavior.
I am continuing no contact as hard as it is and day by day I think I become stronger. I do have days were I miss him terribly which is crazy I know. But I know he is no good for me as he is and I HAVE to move on with my life. Hopefully he will stop contacting me and I can begin to forget about him completely. GOD help me.
ButterflyAugust 31, 2016 at 11:51 am #113846
I re-read your posts in your various threads and I have a better understanding now about what I think is going on and has been going on. You are not going to like my new understanding which is different from your presentation of the situation as well as any interpretation of it so far introduced to your threads. I will start with a summary of my understanding and proceed with your quotes and my comments:
Someone in your life, Butterfly hurt you, again and again, never taking responsibility for it to this very day. You want to express to that person how much that person hurt you- you want that person to know and be sorry and then change and be good and loving to you. You feel angry at that person but you also feel a great need for love from that person. You want that person to finally realize how deeply and badly that person hurt you, how deeply you were hurt, and once and for all BE LOVING to you!
Only this person I am referring to is not your ex boyfriend. You are only inaccurately projecting the real person (most likely a parent) into your ex boyfriend.
From my re-reading (and I didn’t read everything, but a whole lot) of your shares, you presented no evidence that your ex boyfriend was abusive to you. You did some reading about personality disorders and mentioned the terms push and pull, and you mentioned him turning “hot and cold” – but it can very well be that, like any other person, he was not equally as affectionate to you at all times. Everyone is sometimes closer, sometimes farther.
You blame him a whole lot and you don’t take responsibility for having done anything wrong to him in the relationship and at the same time, you claim that he is not taking responsibility and is blaming you.
He is sick with sickle cell anemia, yet you didn’t mention it until very recently. How can it be that a woman who loved a man so much, who still loves a man, does not introduce this fact into the story early on?
The reason is that this relationship had very little to do with who he is and everything to do with the person you projected into him, a parent, most likely, someone very significant in your early life.
And now to your quotes and my comments:
“I am almost scared that I will never… be able to express to him how much he has hurt me…”
This is your greatest passion: to let (the real person in your early life) know how much he or she hurt you, so that he or she will stop hurting you and start loving you.
“Some days the pain is crippling…”
Your shares were indeed all about your pain and nothing in your shares were about his pain, including the fact that he suffers from sickle cell anemia.
“I never did anything to hurt him…and I can’t wrap my brain around why he continually hurt me seemingly without any real remorse…I KNOW it was him and not me …I just HATE the fact that I still care deeply for someone who hurt me so bad”
No doubt you hurt him, your ex boyfriend. As a child you didn’t hurt your parent. You can’t wrap your brain around why your parent (again, most likely, a care taker) would hurt the innocent child that indeed you were.
“… So this morning he sent me three texts being mean….something he hasn’t really done before. He actually said ‘don’t bother to reply, I don’t care that much.’… now you want to ATTACK me for it?… Should I just keep him blocked and ignore his tirades? Or respond by saying there is no needs to be mean and vicious”
His text as you quoted it was not mean, vicious, a tirade or an attack. It was the text of someone hurt and angry that you are not responding to him. When he wrote: “I don’t care that much”- is not a tirade, viciousness and an attack. The fact that you interpreted this text to mean all that, leads me to think that your interpretation of his behaviors as those of a sociopath personality disorder person, are also grossly inaccurate.
“I wasted so much time with someone who is so delusional, immature and now mean…But i NEVER did anything to stress him. HE caused all the negative situations in our relationship.”
No he did not.
anitaAugust 31, 2016 at 12:25 pm #113848
Wow. Well I guess I can see where you are coming from because I did leave ALOT of stuff out. Its hard to mention everything without feeling like I am writing a novel. Even though this is anonymous I still did not want to put some information in. He did in fact HURT me ALOT mostly with his “ghosting” & hot and cold. He would frequently make dates with me not show up and not call. He did this MANY times though out the relationship with NO explanations other than I was “overwhelmed or sorry I feel asleep.” Many times he would go DAYS without responding to texts or calls which would cause me GREAT anxiety because I would worry about his illness and his health. He did some other things that I wish not to disclose but lets just say he tried to talk me into doing things I was not comfortable doing and would try to make me feel bad about not wanting to do them saying I was closed minded. I left out a lot of the stuff that he texted so I can see where you mind not see how I interested what he was saying as wrong. And YES he DID hurt me deeply I am not projecting anything onto him. I love him and would LOVE to be with him IF he would take ownership for his behavior and work on it. I am NOT perfect by ANY means but I NEVER did anything to intentionally hurt him. I say he “acted” like a sociopath because he looked me dead in my eyes MANY times and promised me MANY things. He told me he loved me and cared for me MANY times but continually “ghosted” on me even after I told him how MUCH it hurt me for him to do so. I NEVER felt like a priority in his life and me made me feel like everyone else in his life was more important than me. He would apologize and then do the same things over and over. He also lied about some VERY significant information about himself that would impact our future together. Like I said I left a lot out. But I respectfully have to say that your perception of the situation is wrong. He is NOT a completely horrible person but he has some horrible ways. He HAS hurt me deeply and BUT I can say all of this HAS made me a stronger person. I am working on myself and my own issues but again he was a horrible person to me in many ways. What I will ask you is this? If you think I am wrong and he has not done anything to hurt me. Do you think by his behavior he actually does love and care about me? if so, I have done no contact with him for almost a month. He has only tested me about 12 times in that time. NO CALLS. When I got upset with him the last time he “ghosted” on me which was the weekend of August 6th. I ASKED him to call me…HE NEVER DID. He has only texted me since, which is why I have no responded. My feeling is if you REALLY love me and care for me HOW can you POSSIBLY go WEEKS without hearing my voice or seeing my face?? So I have struggled with calling him to talk about all of this. BUT I still feel that as MAN if you truly LOVE a woman You WILL FIGHT FOR HER. He has not fought for me. SO hence while I feel like he wasted my life and my time and has hurt me because he KNOWS how much I love and care for him even if I should not. Can I have your perspective on this? Should I contact him and if yes, what should I say??