Hi Peter,

One breath I’m connected and ‘know’ and the next not so much.

Very well said…

I ask my soul, be still, and wait without hope
For hope would be hope for the wrong thing;

I think I know what he meant to say – we often hope for things that are not good for us, or even hope to be spared of some pain which we need to go through in order to learn something. So I understand. And I am adjusting my expectations, and my attitude. And it helps. I still have hope though, because without hope, it would be unbearable. I think it’s really true what they say “hope dies last.”

Always found those story’s of instant enlightenment fun and wondered how often or if those who experienced that needed to experience that moment over and over again – perhaps till the realization that the present moment isn’t a slice of time or space

Yeah, I heard of such people who had instant enlightenment. Some of them even became spiritual leaders and gurus. But if there hasn’t been background work and healing of those childhood wounds, it’s not really balanced. Instant enlightenment is cool, but it doesn’t mean instant transformation of the personality. If we really want to change and be whole, it requires hard work, facing ourselves, facing our pain…

Hi Peter,

The first time I came across the passage I wondered what he could mean to hope for the wrong thing. Isn’t hope a good thing?

In hindsight on my experience hope I think I can say that more often than not hope for the wrong thing as it only amplified what it was that I wished to avoid.

Yes, we can hope for the wrong  thing, so it can be counterproductive. My hope is related to physical health actually: hope not to be in chronic physical pain till the rest of my life. And yes, fear of that very scenario. So I can resonate with Vaclav Havel’s definition of hope: Hope is a dimension of the soul, an orientation of the spirit, an orientation of the heart. It transcends the world that is immediately experienced and is anchored somewhere beyond its horizon. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out.

I have a hard time accepting that chronic physical pain makes sense and that it brings any good to anyone – at least not on the long run. I am all for learning our lessons, even through pain and suffering, and transcending ourselves and our limitations. But constant and relentless physical pain (and suffering that it produces) is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Therefore, I hope that it is not what waits ahead. Luckily, I am not in constant physical pain, but it comes and goes. I’ve learned to appreciate when it lessens. So I hope that it will be manageable and not a constant suffering.

I also know that pain and suffering are not the same. I am learning not to associate physical pain with the thought that “I am doomed, this will never end.” Because a thought like that causes even greater suffering.

As for Thomas Merton’s definition of hope, it sounds more related to the attachment to the results of our work. He says we shouldn’t be attached, if I understood well, and still keep doing that what we feel is right and valuable. I do agree with him fully…

It’s interesting what psychiatrist Viktor Frankl had to say about hope in his book Man’s Search for Meaning. He was a prisoner in the WWII concentration camps and noticed that those who survived the camps were not necessarily the strongest physically but instead the ones who didn’t lose their sense of hope. Sadly, the mental health of those who did lose hope deteriorated.

Tee – There have been some interesting recent scientific findings on the role that fascia (connective tissue) plays on chronic pain (myofascial pain syndrome). There are still many unknowns but it may be of interest to you.

B

I think its safe to say that hope is a skill requiring discernment – mindfulness. I wonder if I suffered from chronic physical pain what my relationship to hope might be.  The word courage pops into mind, as it takes a kind of courage to hope skillfully. I admire your courage Tee.

Viktor Frankl notion of hope is tied to the notion of meaning rather then to specific outcomes.    “Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” – Frankl –  I imaging that space as a stillness waiting, the pause between the notes that creates music, as hope, teh space of hope to choose, hopefully courageously, wisely? That their exists a space of choosing and that space is hope or can be?

No dialog on hope is complete without addressing Pandora’s Box paradox, a box that contained all the evils of the World, A box that also contained hope. Begging the question is hope to evil?  Only in the story hope was not released with the other evils. Does  this mean Life is suffering as thier is no hope, suffering without hope, that we suffer when hope is locked away? Their is a thought that hope was kept in the box in order to separate it from the evils and so transform it. Hope attached to the evils’ being hope for the wrong things while by itself, in its ‘true’ formless form, is the space of choosing, reframing, meaning…

For myself I hold such thoughts – things – lightly.

Beautifully stated, as usual, Peter. Back to Jung’s “I know”, like you and Tee, I think I mostly know, too. It may sound hokey but sometimes I feel that when everything is going right, when life is good and things are working out nicely, that unless I choose the “right” meaning for all my good fortune, I’ll be left with a feeling of emptiness in the midst of all my happiness. Maybe it’s devinely designed this way whereby the emptiness is a gentle nudge by the Self, Universe, G_d, etc. for us to seek answers that point us to hope in the right things, which will ultimately fill our emptiness with joy. And, of course, once we get there, we know we’ve chosen correctly.

B

Apologies for the freeform of thoughts, wanted to see where it when

Hi Helcat. I don’t think finding meaning in outcomes is a negative unless if we forget that outcomes must be impermeant. The task then would be able to come to terms with the reality of impermanence.

Brandy, you bring up a challenging thought, what does a person do when the space of self-emptying one is to rest in becomes an uncomfortable feeling or fear of emptiness?

Recalled a story that Pema Chodron tells in her book ‘When Things Fall Apart.’ She was instructing a student on meditation – suggesting a “gentle touch of awareness on the everchanging out-breath, ungraspable and yet continuously arising. When you breathe in, it’s like a pause or a gap. There is nothing particular to do except wait for the next out-breath.”  The student replied – “But that’s impossible! There’s a whole part where there’s nothing to be aware of!” (fear of this emptiness and time of waiting?)  Pema goes on to explain – “This was the first time I realized that built into the instruction was the opportunity to completely let go… meditation as the willingness to die over and over again… as each breath went out and dissolved, there was the chance to die to all that had gone before and to relax instead of panic.”

Latter she goes on to talk about hopelessness and death noting: “Turning your mind toward the Dharma does not bring security or confirmation. Turning your mind toward the Dharma does not bring any ground to stand on. In fact, when your mind turns toward the Dharma, you fearlessly acknowledge impermanence and change and begin to get the knack of hopelessness (emptiness?)… If we’re willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation. This is the first step on the path.”

Allan Watts suggested, which I think applies to hope. “The instant we become motivated by fear, we become unfree. So long as the mind believes in the possibility of escape from what it is at this moment, there can be no freedom. When you are freed from being out to improve yourself, your own nature will begin to take over.”  As Dr Old’s suggest one’s own nature being the capital S Self and a practice of hopelessness that involves the realization and embracing ungroundedness. To sit (be) in that still place from which all things arise and return and ‘Be not afraid’?

Movement is time, stillness is eternity.
Movement is what creates life
“Stillness is what creates love,
To be still, Yet still moving
That is everything!” – Do Hyun Choe

“The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together… Movement is time, stillness is eternity. Realizing the relationship of the temporal moment to the eternal—not moment, but forever—is the sense of life… Realizing how this moment in your life is actually a moment of eternity.” Watts

Reminding me of something from – Richard Wagamese

“I Used to believe my body contained my soul. That was fine for a while. But when I started thinking about oneness with Creator (all things), I came to believe that it’s the other way around. My soul (one Soul) contains my body. It is everything that I am. I am never separate from Creator except within my mind. That’s the ultimate truth, and I need to be reminded, to learn again, to learn anew in order to get it. When I do. I know the  truth of why my people say: that we are all spirit, were are all energy, joined to everything that is everywhere, all things coming true together.”  – Richard Wagamese

Then “Nothingness (this moment?) is really like the nothingness of space, which contains the whole universe. All the sun and the stars and the mountains, and rivers, and the good and bad, and the animals, and insects, and the whole bit. All are contained in void. So out of this void comes everything and You Are IT” – Watts

We end where we began. In the circle without circumference and whose center is everywhere – each of us is the center, a center? Nothing and no one is separate and everyone belongs. The present moment is the circle, eternal. Nothing arises, nothing ends, there is nothing to attain as you are and have always been IT. (there is no you, only the circle) Having such a realization there is nothing to fear so no need to hope or worry, nothing to stop a person from engaging in the world? The experience of such a Self, as Dr Olds pointed out, connects the person to the 8 C’s of authentic Being – compassion, confidence, calmness, creativity, clarity, curiosity, courage, and connectedness. From such a center, again nothing to fear?

Well that was fun…. Something to ponder 😊

The monk on hearing the Buddha speak was instantly enlightened, in a state of bliss the monk walks home and steps in dog poo did the moment pass or does he laugh?

Hello everyone!

Wishing ya’ll all the best! 🙏

Thank you for the warm welcome Tee!

I’m very curious about some of the your quotes Peter.

Pema’s comparison of stillness to dying. I hear that there’s actually a phenomenon where that can happen in meditation. The mind shuts down and respiration near ceases. Often you read of accomplished meditators performing such feats for extended periods in texts.

The nothingness and void Watt refers to could be another esoteric description of this phenomenon.