Hi Murtaza

Good to hear from you. I never hardboard hard feelings so a apology wasn’t required yet is appreciated. The communication was, as TeaK mentioned, often challenging but I always felt it was coming from a place of someone trying to understand their own thinking and feelings. I often user this form of communication in that way, and our dialog often had me asking if I really believed, felt  and or understood the things I was trying to convey.

Similar to apathy I struggle with a desire for a healthy detachment and engagement with life against a indifference and  disengagement from life. There are days when I think similar things you expressed in your post and fall into indifference. I tell myself that their is a time for everything and work on not being to hard on myself when I fall into one of those days.

Not giving advice, just that I’ve been thinking about this problem a lot lately. In trying to deal with my tendency to indifference I’ve been looking into the history of the Enneagram and its connection to the Law of three and Law of Seven, a process of ‘motion’ and creation/re-creation.   Along with that is what I view as a novel take on the problem of duality, ‘problem of opposites’, and ‘oneness’. (Language and ego consciousness tends depend on duality so its difficult to communicate but easy to get stuck in)

In some teachings there is a idea that dually collapses into oneness where the opposites ‘disappear’ and all is ‘good’.  But I have always found that such a ‘oneness’ has little energy for movement leading easily into indifference and non-engagement.  “Everything this is as it is, as it must be, as it will be”… what’s the point…. might as well disengage, move to a cave and sit quietly avoiding unpleasantries and avoid suffering… except the suffering of aloneness.  Can’t seem to get away from that one, no matter that everything is connected and ‘One’…

Anyway the take on the problem of duality involves the adding of a third (no duality  but trinary) which then creates a new forth/one/happening. By adding a third to the two a new a  ‘something’ Fourth happens.  The process is not a circle that devours itself but a spiral that projects itself outward into time and space.  When  stuck in the duality of either or the task is to add a third, which working with the two creates the ‘energy’ that allows the ‘forth’ to happen.  A act of will which starts with surrendering ones will (how’s that for a paradox the act of will is letting it go) The fourth is not controlled but a happening.  Their is intention but detached from outcome… The problem is that we tend to be blind to the third ‘force’

That was a mess… Anyway  – ‘The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge’ might be a interesting read.  It might not change anything but will keep one distracted… Still if their is a third that can break us out of our either or duality thinking/doings stuckness…. that would be a grail worth finding?

G.I. Gurdjieff. The “Law of Three” refers to an assertion that every phenomenon is a new arising that comes into being through three distinct lines of action. The first force is affirming, the second force denying, and third force reconciling.

“Just as it takes three independent strands of hair to make a braid, so it takes three individual lines of force to make a new arising. Until this third force enters, the other two forces remain at impasse. These three lines of action are free of moral judgment and they are neither “good” or “bad”.

Hi Murtaza,

You misunderstand my post, i didn’t come “back”, i was never in in the first place, i have no place here.

I didn’t think you came back, or changed your attitude, nor did I suggest it in my reply to you. When I said “You don’t need to give up trying to connect with people, though you’d need to do it from a different mindset.”, it’s clear to me that with your current mindset, you don’t want to connect with people.

I am still glad you apologized, it felt nice.

And I wish you well, Murtaza.

I just saw your question to TeaK

I think what TeaK was suggesting is similar to what I am getting at in the above.  That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it.  You have been so consistent in your thinking and responses that its its become part of the issue that needs to be addressed. In one this ability to be so consistent is a strength and at the same time a weakness that gets in the way.

As you ask the question and frustration becomes How?

Everything I have read in the last few years points to the answer involving the Zen concept of doing by not doing, the act of will which evolves the letting go of ‘will’, synchronicity (participating in ‘creation’ by entering into the flow vice going against it)… we work for that which no work is required….
This is not Passive but a Active engagement that does not ‘hold on’, that lets go of “itself”, its outcomes….creating space…

Every wisdom tradition suggesting that a ‘new level of conciseness’ is possible (may even be Life’s goal) and that the way involves a ability’s  of allowing the happening. (getting out of our own way).  Thus the ego work – ego conciseness is limited, liner and tends to be binary and not able to solve the issues it creates. It takes a healthy ego to let go of ego and engage (another paradox)… And in the end we return to where we started and ‘know’ it for the first time.

Hi Murtaza,

though you’d need to do it from a different mindset.

How do i do that? Im not gonna argue anymore, im just gonna listen, i feel like sh*t teak, i don’t know what to do, i hate life so much

You’ve asked me that several times before, and every time I tried to give you an answer, you said it was “bullshit” and that it’s not applicable to you. If you still feel the same about the things I’ve said (related to the possibility of healing and changing one’s attitude about life), I can’t help you unfortunately because my advice would be the same as before.

Hi Murtaza

For me its like giving up my mind, the most thing i value, the control i think i have.

Totally get that.

Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice

I have this doubt that makes it impossible to know something for sure, even if i got all the possible info, there would be still some missing info, some gusses, and depending on luck and randomness, i can’t have that, i don’t trust that, i started to feel that whatever choice im gonna make, its gonna be just as disappointing as picking it randomly.

Lots to unpack here. You have this doubt that it makes it impossible to know with certainty.  But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible, some unknows will always be involved in any choice.  You can’t or do not want to accept what you ‘know’  which is getting in the way of you finding a ‘skillful’ way of living with what you know.  One of the things  noted in your comments is that they show no indication of being in doubt. You have no doubt about the present which you tend to project into the future which is going to be “just as disappointing” as if picked randomly = no control = despair.

The one certainty I have is that ‘We very easily create what we Fear’ more so then what we hope for. I know this because I do it (and observe it) all the time.

I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force”

Did it happen yet? Did the third force got any closer? For me i can’t do that, i can relay on hope, it feels like im lying to myself, something i despise.

That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it

But this is the only conciseness i have, “all i know, is what i know”

I did a horrible job trying to articulate that. Perhaps because its not only ‘mind’ thing, not a thinking thing… I’ll try a story

A sparrow is trapped in a empty old grain silo. During the day the sun shines through the cracks in the wall and in panic the bird flutters around checking out each ray of light hoping for a why out but the cracks are never big enough. Every night the bird lies exhausted, disappointed, in the dark, depressed. This cycle continues until the bird no longer checks out the rays of light for escape. To depressed to be depressed at rock bottom the sparrow finds itself ’empty’ – stops thinking, dreaming, worrying, even hoping… this emptying is a happening not a something willed for if the sparrow thinks this is not what it wants. In this emptiness , this space, this quietness, the sparrow notices a breeze coming from a small hole in the ground that it had never noticed before. Entering into a dark hole in the ground is the last thing the sparrow would ever had imagined itself doing, one of the reasons perhaps it was not conscious of it before. Terrified the sparrow enters the dark tunnel that goes deep into the ground until it eventually leads upward and into the world.

The third force and ‘new’ consciousness is the breeze from the dark hole in the ground the sparrow felt and did not come from  the mind in which it was stuck. While the sparrow was franticly fluttering around seeking out ever crack of light for a answer or laying defeated on the ground stuck in its mind/fear it was blind to the experience of the breeze. It is only when the sparrow  detaches from mind, fear, depression, hope even love… that the third happens and the way out becomes conscious.   Not known as the sparrow cannot know what lies within the dark hole. Only that the breeze was fresh air (new level of knowing). The way out is not up but down. The sparrow lived happy ever after… when one day it found it self in a house with no obvious way out…

The way out (any new level of knowing/consciousness) is not up but down.  Letting go (emptying) of the thinking (mind) that keeps you stuck which I know is terrifying.