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  • #387378
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    I posted a while ago, but the  post is “awaiting moderation” because it contains a link to your previous thread (a shout-out to TinyBuddha moderators: perhaps links to tinybuddha’s own content shouldn’t be moderated!). Anyway, I am posting it here again:

     

    There is no hope is there?

    It is what you are telling yourself. Because you say “it’s my way or no way”. And your way isn’t working for you… so you’re clinging to something that’s not working.

    why the only love i can get is from my own mind,

    Your mind is both good and bad for you. I’ve already explained it in your “It’s funny how life works” thread, page 2, post No 384611.

    You don’t blame or condemn yourself, you harbor no shame, so from that point of view, you love yourself. But at the same time, your view of life is very destructive, and as I said, it blocks you from having loving relationships. So you became a prisoner of your own mind, of your own philosophy, because it leaves you bitter and hating your life.

    BTW, I love Peter’s metaphor of the sparrow trapped in the silo. I hope you too find it helpful!

    #387372
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    There is no hope is there?

    It is what you are telling yourself. Because you say “it’s my way or no way”. And your way isn’t working for you… so you’re clinging to something that’s not working.

    why the only love i can get is from my own mind,

    Your mind is both good and bad for you. I’ve already explained it here: https://tinybuddha.com/topic/its-funny-how-life-works/page/2/#post-384611

    You don’t blame or condemn yourself, you harbor no shame, so from that point of you, you love yourself. But at the same time, your view of life is very destructive, and as I said, it blocks you from having loving relationships. So you became a prisoner of your own mind, of your own philosophy, because it leaves you bitter and hating your life.

     

    #387469
    Peter
    Participant

    I woke up thinking of WORM’s and want to see if I can articulate my thoughts and not make a mess of them.

    In programing WORM’s are pieces of code that are Written Once Read Often.  Its efficient as multiple sub-systems can access the same block of code, saving time, memory, and energy.  WORMs are often embedded deep and not always tested to verify if the output remains relevant as the system grows. Badly coded WORM’s are often self validating.

    Programmers tend to forget and overlook WORMs which are often created early in the development, influenced by others, and before fully understanding how each subsystem using the code are intended to function and interact with the system as a whole. What mattered in the early stages of development is that the WORMs worked and kept the system “Safe” in that moment and time…   with a assumption that the code will continue to keep the system functioning and “safe”

    As you noted Murtaza, such “programs” provided the same input and conditions will always return the same result. Change and choice within such a WORM let alone an experience of control isn’t posable…. Well maybe if you change the inputs to the WORM, someone might argue…  not if the inputs are also defined by the self referencing WORM….  WORM’s within WORM’s, an infant loop infecting memory and performance.

    Under the same conditions the same choices will be made.  Even if you had control over the variables (outer and inner)… under the same conditions and moment in time you could only choose to define them as they were defined, even if the choice was left to be random choice, the result can only be the same.   

    I desire different and then the WORM, created by the mind, answers, different isn’t possible.  Even the desire for different which initiates this loop within the WORM is a hard coded variable built into the system. I do no choose the desire for different, better, change… I am set to desire different, better….

    Such reasoning can’t be disputed. Such a WORM validates itself. – On the question HOW to change the WORM rebuts all suggestions. Such a choices can’t be made by me!

    The stuckness and disappointment of an infinite loop. IF A then B If B then A…. To break out of an infinite loop a new third variable C is required. Note C does not replace A or B but works with A and B to initiate a reaction where together the three create as something new, D. That is the Law of Three.

    How to not to find C: The consciousness that created the WORM can’t fix the WORM. The WORM will always be bind to C.  A new way of knowing and allowing is required to find C.

    There are three kinds of ‘Knowing’: The mind, the heart and the gut.

    The problem above was created by the Mind and so will not be resolved by the Mind. The task is to develop and allow other ways of knowing. Oh, but the WROM screams such a way can’t be my way, the system is set…  Quite worm, be still and wait… (I am not out to destroy you)

    Its true we are born with a leaning to one of the ways of knowing, which in our first few years before “knowing” better can itself be incased into a WORM…. The minds way of knowing is the only why of knowing! screams out the WORM…. Quite worm, be still…..

    A programmer might try to delete the code only to discover its so embedded that removing it creates system failures down the line. An act of will is not going to work.

    Becoming aware of the WORM space could be created to notice how it is affecting the system. Asking: why was this code created, what did it serve? Thankyou for your service. What does it serve now? A path forward to quite the “affects” of the worm. Giving  the permission to allowing a different way of knowing that was always present but hidden behind the certainty of the worm?

    A Riddle 
    We work for that which no work is required.

    The first step in a the exercise of free will is surrender.
    Our head, our heart, our gut already “knows”.

    #387471
    Murtaza
    Participant

      But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible,

    I doubt it before, but i find it compelling,  by observation, we really don’t know a lot about anything, we just do what everybody do, what if its wrong? Who cares? We won’t know if its wrong.

     

    I have to have a basic certainty for my doubts, some order in my mind, i do doubt my beliefs sometimes, but not because of an argument someone made, just because someone thought, or the majority don’t believe in it, i like when someone makes a good argument against my belief, its a nice exercise to my mind, don’t you think?

     

    One of the things  noted in your comments is that they show no indication of being in doubt

    Because i tried and it does nothing, external validation is useless when i belief the opposite, though i do show my doubt side, don’t you remember? Asking for validation were because of doubt, doubt of myself, doubt of if im doing the right thing, doubt that its my fault, a never ending doubt supported by Generalized Anxiety Disorder, so it will never ends and never leaves, the only time i did experience a peace of mind were on meds, but it was so costly, so expensive, no feelings, no passion, suffering is tasteless, life is boring and doll, and it was money wise expensive too.

     

    Though i do feel regret quitting it, because now its also bad, too much feelings, too much loneliness, a strong soul numbing desire to be loved, knowing it won’t will never happen, everyday a reminder.

     

    Thinking about those two options, with drugs, or without, i can swear i would never pick an option that will satisfy me, both options are as bad as the other, both are predetermined by my own past

     

    You have no doubt about the present which you tend to project into the future

    I have the enough proof to assume the future, really what my current mindset and feelings, anyone would guess the same, what do you think will happen peter? Im really asking, what do you think based on what you read from me will happen? It makes me sad to picture the future, to know the only possibility of being happy is to not be at all.

     

    I have seen it, for few years now, my life, going downhall, i don’t think i ever went up, i lost my diginty, self respect, feelings, passion, goals, dreams, should’ve left while i had some dignity.

     

    as if picked randomly = no control = despair.

    Tell me whats the biggest insult to having a thinking mind? Not using it, or worse forced to use in bullsh*t.

     

    Its known that people who believe they have no control over thier lifes tend to be more depressed, im not peter sadly, i can’t have the spiritual awakening, im barely even human.

     

    The one certainty I have is that ‘We very easily create what we Fear’

    You know what i feared the most in my teenage years? To be an atheist nihilistic person, along the way i knew it would happen, the future became clearer, i believed in god back then, i prayed and prayed to not let me be this, “please god take me before”, maybe there is a god and im already in hell, interesting idea, at one time before i leave religion, i liked seeing myself in hell, suffering, it was satisfying to imagine, “fair”.

     

    I read the story, it did make things clearer, thank you.

     

    I understand what you mean, but i honestly have no idea how to make it happen in real life, at one point i think you said, its not something you choose, from the stroy it seems that luck/randomness made the sparrow realise, what if he wasn’t lucky enough? What if there is another sparrow that didn’t had this realisation?

    #387479
    Murtaza
    Participant

    so you’re clinging to something that’s not working.

    This is my personality we talking about

     

    your view of life is very destructive, and as I said, it blocks you from having loving relationships.

    I understand teak, i will never have anything with my current mindset.

    #387480
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Also just so you know, i wanted to do online therapy yesterday, i liked the idea that someone could listen to me, but there were some external problems, too expensive to solve, i still wanna do it, if there were easier option.

    #387507
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    Also just so you know, i wanted to do online therapy yesterday, i liked the idea that someone could listen to me, but there were some external problems, too expensive to solve, i still wanna do it, if there were easier option.

    Good! I am glad you wanted to give it a try. Don’t give up – I hope you’ll find a way to make it happen!

    #387520
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible,

    I was wrong to question your experience of doubt. My thought was that you had built up a catch 22 self validating loop that your well-developed mode of ‘knowing’, the mind, can’t break you out of.

    I honestly have no idea how to make it happen in real life, at one point i think you said, its not something you choose, from the story it seems that luck/randomness made the sparrow realize, what if he wasn’t lucky enough? What if there is another sparrow that didn’t had this realization?

    When we use a world like ‘choose’ we tend to imagine a clear intention attached to a specific outcome, initiated by a force of will to ‘made it so’ always open to disappointed when it doesn’t turn out exactly as we expect.  Such an experience of choice is a product of mind and for many of life’s choices works just fine.  However it doesn’t work so well when we find ourselves stuck, especially when it was the reasoning mind that got us stuck.

    So difficult to explain… The sparrow after all its striving lays disappointed and depressed on the ground.  In this state of mind/being, it is not capable of noticing the breeze that points to a way out.
    Noticing the breeze is NOT a random act of luck as it requires work. (It will take work to release the mind and allow ‘flow’ – other ways of ‘knowing’ – to ‘speak’, which was always present, just not noticed. – Thus it is said we return home and ‘know’ it for the first time. Such is the realization of all illumination.)

    The unconscious has noticed the breeze long ago but the Minds attachment and self validation to what it ‘knows’ keeps it from “hearing” other experiences of ‘knowing’. Sure From the point of view of mind/ego ‘letting go’ of what it knows can be experienced as giving in to random chance and losing control, its not even sure it has, and so it resists.

    The sparrow could give up, as the number of bones laying around suggest those the came before have done. Instead, the sparrow’s act of well, its choice, is to be still and be quite.

    The self-validating mind has not found the way out and so the sparrow asks it to be still and to wait.
    To do this sparrow notes it feelings of disappointments and depression and detaches. The Sparrow has emotions and experiences but is NOT its emotions and experiences.
    The Sparrow notices the past and how it got to where it is and detaches from that as well (It does not disavow the experiences  but refuses to judge or measure. By not judging a labeling the experiences are noticed and allowed/free to flow).
    As for the imagined future the sparrow has no time for it, yet doing so this is not a detachment from hope or intention. The intention of allowing the future and not grasping is a difficult tension hold.  The art of allowing is not a surrender to random chance or control/intention as ones eyes and ears* are always open. Allowing involves a surrender to attaching and labeling which blocks flow, not a surrender to apathy or indifference.

    Allowing does not ignore the past or feelings but a loosening of their grip so that the Sparrow might empty itself. Its in that space that the ‘heart’ and ‘gut’ can be heard. New information.

    The work of ’emptying’ and ‘allowing’ is far from leaving things to chance and randomness. It involves a full participation.

    *Another riddle. ‘I’ do not see, eyes see. ‘I’ do no hear ears hear

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Peter.
    #387765
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Hi peter, i think i understand

    what you mean.

     

    I don’t think i will do it in anytime though, i don’t think i will do anything anymore at this point, even if i wanted one day, it won’t last, the motivation, the reason, i don’t think i can describe how i feel about the world, about life, how i feel everyday, i don’t think anyone would care even if i try, so im gonna stop.

     

    Thank you peter, it was nice talking to you, i will try to not be desperate for human connection to endup to make pointless posts, its fair, im paying for something i signed up for, you wouldn’t believe my thoughts pattern when i made this post, what i actually wanted, its not to talk and learn, far from it.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Murtaza.
    #387794
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    I’m sorry to hear that your struggling. I relate to the crushing loneliness that comes through your posts.

    I didn’t think your posts were pointless and want to thank you for challenging me it attempting to communicate my thoughts and experiences.

    Their is a time for all things including a time to be still and stopping the seeking of answers and ‘fixing’ oneself. My personal experience of such a time was to be intentional about it. If I was going to take time away from seeking solutions I also need to stop asking the questions and telling myself my stories.

    Friends would tell me that I needed to fill the space ‘stopping’ created with positive thinking which ticked me off. If I was able to do that I would have been doing that!!!  The pressure to force myself into  this mode of being only amplified the negative story I was telling myself. So I told them thanks but that I would avoid filling the space with any story. I would stop telling myself my stories without replacing them.  If I notice I was in my head and repeating a story I’d stop, take a breath and get back to what I was doing in the the moment.  No story, no questions, no answers… and surprisingly I found I could do that some of the time…. then more of the time….

    Like you I think (sorry if I’m wrong) I’m a head person. Meaning I live most of my life in my head, watching, evaluating, gathering information, and then when I’m sure I tell my self I’ll engage… only there is never enough information and resources to be sure…  and when I do manage to engage I often late and miss the opportunity.  I’ve accepted that it will always be my prime strategy for ‘keeping safe’ but I’m better at noticing when it gets in the way. The strategy is my gift and the thing I must overcome.

    Be well and kind to yourself.

    #387857
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Hi peter, thank you for telling me a bit about your personal experience, i wanted to ask how are you in my last post, but i realised people don’t like to be asked personal questions.

     

    I feel so ashamed of everything, just existing, i feel so much gulit, i don’t know if its the withdrawal symptoms or the state of my life, its all my fault.

     

    I did it again, i made a decision under apathy, i should’ve done my research, i can’t keep doing this, i can’t do things without caring and endure the consequences.

     

    the Generalized anxiety disorder is killing me, i can’t fight a random/fast thought, maybe i can, like always, i take exuces, i don’t even think about suicide anymore, i know i can’t, i know i won’t do it, i liked the idea that i could leave whenever, the freedom of it, but its just a lie i tell myself, i knew this.

     

    I don’t know if my problem can be fixed externally, if i do something, maybe work, i will no longer feel shame and guilt, but the GAD gonna gets worse.

     

    I miss my meds, i didn’t feel anything, i didn’t feel botherd or ashamed or guilt, no GAD.

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