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  • #387046
    Murtaza
    Participant

    To the all people that replay to my past post, try to help me, specially anita, teak and peter.

     

    Im hardly making this post because of how ugly i feel about my old posts/replies.

     

    I did learned a few things in those conversation, but it always happens after i mess it up, for one thing peter were right about my usage of the word “normie”. i don’t even wanna say it anymore, it disgust me.

     

    I realised my main problem is apathy, after it took away my sister, i knew it before, but it wasn’t as much of a main problem as i see it now.

     

    Everytime i care, i ended up with the same conclusion, but i say “i don’t have to do this, i will just not care”, i hate that i cowred up from doing it, i know the facts, and they won’t change, i know i won’t have what i want, but i just became more and more apathetic, just because of some animalstic desire.

     

    Then i live but with so much hate inside, so much hate for everything and everyone, a never ending hate for enduring this everyday, hate for even the simplest things like being human, desires and feelings themselves, its so much that i ended up numbing it, no wonder im so apathetic.

     

    But that is no excuse for my replies/posts, i really think i should just stay alone, its just not worth it for both parties, i should’ve never post here, or anywhere on the Internet, there were few times were good things come from this, but they end quickly, and don’t feel like anything, so why even bother.

    #387081
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza,

    I accept your apology. It’s good you see that apathy serves to numb your strong feelings: both your desire to connect and love/be loved, and your hate and anger for not having what you need and want.

    i really think i should just stay alone, its just not worth it for both parties, i should’ve never post here, or anywhere on the Internet, there were few times were good things come from this, but they end quickly, and don’t feel like anything, so why even bother.

    I am not sorry we’ve communicated, although it was challenging. You don’t need to give up trying to connect with people, though you’d need to do it from a different mindset. For example, be more open-minded and less sure that life isn’t worth living.

    I am glad you apologized, it shows you care and you are opening your heart. I appreciate that.

     

    #387154
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    Good to hear from you. I never hardboard hard feelings so a apology wasn’t required yet is appreciated. The communication was, as TeaK mentioned, often challenging but I always felt it was coming from a place of someone trying to understand their own thinking and feelings. I often user this form of communication in that way, and our dialog often had me asking if I really believed, felt  and or understood the things I was trying to convey.

    Similar to apathy I struggle with a desire for a healthy detachment and engagement with life against a indifference and  disengagement from life. There are days when I think similar things you expressed in your post and fall into indifference. I tell myself that their is a time for everything and work on not being to hard on myself when I fall into one of those days.

    Not giving advice, just that I’ve been thinking about this problem a lot lately. In trying to deal with my tendency to indifference I’ve been looking into the history of the Enneagram and its connection to the Law of three and Law of Seven, a process of ‘motion’ and creation/re-creation.   Along with that is what I view as a novel take on the problem of duality, ‘problem of opposites’, and ‘oneness’. (Language and ego consciousness tends depend on duality so its difficult to communicate but easy to get stuck in)

    In some teachings there is a idea that dually collapses into oneness where the opposites ‘disappear’ and all is ‘good’.  But I have always found that such a ‘oneness’ has little energy for movement leading easily into indifference and non-engagement.  “Everything this is as it is, as it must be, as it will be”… what’s the point…. might as well disengage, move to a cave and sit quietly avoiding unpleasantries and avoid suffering… except the suffering of aloneness.  Can’t seem to get away from that one, no matter that everything is connected and ‘One’…

    Anyway the take on the problem of duality involves the adding of a third (no duality  but trinary) which then creates a new forth/one/happening. By adding a third to the two a new a  ‘something’ Fourth happens.  The process is not a circle that devours itself but a spiral that projects itself outward into time and space.  When  stuck in the duality of either or the task is to add a third, which working with the two creates the ‘energy’ that allows the ‘forth’ to happen.  A act of will which starts with surrendering ones will (how’s that for a paradox the act of will is letting it go) The fourth is not controlled but a happening.  Their is intention but detached from outcome… The problem is that we tend to be blind to the third ‘force’

    That was a mess… Anyway  – ‘The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge’ might be a interesting read.  It might not change anything but will keep one distracted… Still if their is a third that can break us out of our either or duality thinking/doings stuckness…. that would be a grail worth finding?

    G.I. Gurdjieff. The “Law of Three” refers to an assertion that every phenomenon is a new arising that comes into being through three distinct lines of action. The first force is affirming, the second force denying, and third force reconciling.

    “Just as it takes three independent strands of hair to make a braid, so it takes three individual lines of force to make a new arising. Until this third force enters, the other two forces remain at impasse. These three lines of action are free of moral judgment and they are neither “good” or “bad”.

    #387260
    Murtaza
    Participant

    You don’t need to give up trying to connect with people,

    Yes i do, im clearly not gonna pay the fee so i might as well not try to get something thats not supposed to be free.

     

    You misunderstand my post, i didn’t come “back”, i was never in in the first place, i have no place here.

     

    I do feel the apology is needed, because i came in a place that offer a certain thing, and i asked for something else, then i was rude about when i received the first.

     

    On our first conversation, you said: “it turns out i don’t know you after all”

     

    You still don’t.

     

     

     

    #387261
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    You misunderstand my post, i didn’t come “back”, i was never in in the first place, i have no place here.

    I didn’t think you came back, or changed your attitude, nor did I suggest it in my reply to you. When I said “You don’t need to give up trying to connect with people, though you’d need to do it from a different mindset.”, it’s clear to me that with your current mindset, you don’t want to connect with people.

    I am still glad you apologized, it felt nice.

    And I wish you well, Murtaza.

     

    #387339
    Murtaza
    Participant

    There are days when I think similar things you expressed in your post and fall into indifference

    I once asked myself, what would life with no apathy would look like? Maybe not so different from now, maybe completely different, i might never know

     

    Not giving advice

    Its alright if you do, i don’t mind anymore.

     

    Reading the rest of your replay, i didn’t understand it, all i saw were words next to each other, this is my main problem when i tried to read books, unless its a stroy or a normal talk book, i don’t process it, i tried to read very carefully, but no matter how much i repeat it i still end with the same result.

     

    I think the main reason is that i just don’t care to process the words, i don’t do anything that a bit demanding to my mind, i get really tired if i do, and see no point.

     

    You remember that scene from no country for old men at the oil store when he told him to call it?

     

    The other day i just watched this scene, but i understood it more, im starting to think that i should do the same with my decisions, just call it, and let the luck decide, luck been deciding for my whole life, i hate luck, because its not in my control, i like to choose my decisions, but this seems like an illusion, it seems that when i face to options, i will probably choose one with comfortable outcome, maybe this is my problem, following my own fuc*ed up mind, i hate the idea that luck and randomness decided for me, on who i am and what i want and need, what my dreams, so i always dismissed such desires/needs/dreams, because “I” didn’t choose them, but i didn’t choose this desire to wanting control too, i didn’t choose to have this idea either, just another luck/randomness act,

     

    Nowdays when i face with two decision, i just don’t choose, because i don’t have the enough information to choose, and thanks to apathy i don’t learn such information, i just ignore the whole decision, but then when im forced i go to the least painful one, surprising that this decision wasn’t the least painful one, gulit over taking this decision, i feel if i rewind the time and choose the other decision, i would still feel gulit.

     

    Why not go all the way and be true to myself and let luck/randomness decide just like he has been all my life?

     

    “You’ve been calling it your whole life, you just didn’t know it”

    • This reply was modified 1 day, 13 hours ago by Murtaza.
    #387342
    Murtaza
    Participant

    I didn’t mean to argue, it just frustrat me when you say things about me that is wrong.

     

    though you’d need to do it from a different mindset.

    How do i do that? Im not gonna argue anymore, im just gonna listen, i feel like sh*t teak, i don’t know what to do, i hate life so much

    #387346
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    Five minutes after posting the bit about what I was working on I wanted to delete it. A attempt to understand my own thoughts, it was a mess and embarrassing.  Been such a weird headspace these last few months.

    I do remember ‘No Country for Old Men’. So many people thought it was such a great movie and I hated it as I found it nihilistic. Giving up to the idea of fate, luck, chance whatever you want to call it is my kryptonite.

    I hated the movie because a part of me feared it reflected a truth and my greatest fear. That accepting that as a truth, I couldn’t see how it couldn’t end in despair. And if that the case I want off the ride…

    The above actually matches my Enneagram type, both its hope and fear. Observation/Investigation and Detachment is my gift but also my weakness. A healthy detachment and engagement can so easily turn into Indifference, apathy and disengagement. (odd how one’s gifts are also one’s curse, the thing to overcome. Batman is partially responsible for the creation of the Joker. You might argue that one does not exist without the other. But that may be binary thinking)

    I also tend to let things happen but then become upset that things haven’t worked out as I think/demand they should have. My challenge is to remain engaged even ‘knowing’ at some level that thigs are and will be as they are and must be. That we are more influenced by things that our outside our control then that we have influence over. (As above so below having more influence then as below so above… still the latter is possible)

    I don’t know Murtaza…. Do I think change is possible?

    I’ve observed others that appear to do it….  Albert Einstein noted that “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” That a binary either or problem  requires a third “force” , a new level of consciousness, to create the new.  I think that is true but is a something that you can’t ‘will’ into being , one can allow it… A act of will which is  a letting go of ones will.  That is scurry which I guess is why most never do it. (The letting go of will is not passive but very much active engagement which feels like a paradox and likely why its so difficult. )

    What are we accepting when we don’t choose… even if an illusion, is still a choice? Another paradox.

    Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice. Unlike you I don’t feel quilt when, as I almost always, get it wrong and desire a do over.  I do though often feel shame which has me wanting to crawl into my hole and disengage. Shame for being a something that is wrong more then shame for having done something wrong. So many places to trip oneself up.

    What keeps me from crawling into a hole or immerging when I find myself in one…. I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force” (new level of consciousness is possible) might break the stuckness and point to a Fourth Way.

    “A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” ― Albert Einstein

     

    • This reply was modified 1 day, 4 hours ago by Peter.
    #387348
    Peter
    Participant

    I just saw your question to TeaK

    I think what TeaK was suggesting is similar to what I am getting at in the above.  That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it.  You have been so consistent in your thinking and responses that its its become part of the issue that needs to be addressed. In one this ability to be so consistent is a strength and at the same time a weakness that gets in the way.

    As you ask the question and frustration becomes How?

    Everything I have read in the last few years points to the answer involving the Zen concept of doing by not doing, the act of will which evolves the letting go of ‘will’, synchronicity (participating in ‘creation’ by entering into the flow vice going against it)… we work for that which no work is required….
    This is not Passive but a Active engagement that does not ‘hold on’, that lets go of “itself”, its outcomes….creating space…

    Every wisdom tradition suggesting that a ‘new level of conciseness’ is possible (may even be Life’s goal) and that the way involves a ability’s  of allowing the happening. (getting out of our own way).  Thus the ego work – ego conciseness is limited, liner and tends to be binary and not able to solve the issues it creates. It takes a healthy ego to let go of ego and engage (another paradox)… And in the end we return to where we started and ‘know’ it for the first time.

     

    #387350
    Peter
    Participant

    Your mention of wishing you could rewind time reminded me of a new TV show – Ordinary Joe – about a guy who wonders what would have happened had he made a different choice at his graduation. The choice was a minor one, who to celebrate with, but it turns out one that creates three very different time lines. Actually Joe is the kind of Guy that panic’s when a choices is required and seems to prefer when others or situations makes the choice for him.  Of the three paths the show explores, all of them have their problems and missed opportunities.

    Also reminded me of a Book THE MIDNIGHT LIBRARY by Matt Haig
    Its about a woman who life has been full of misery and regret. She feels she has let everyone down, including herself and decides its time to end things. Between Life and Death she finds herself in the Midnight Library  where she gets to sample every timeline that every choice might have created, she gets to undo every one of her regrets and work out her perfect life…

     

    #387367
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    though you’d need to do it from a different mindset.

    How do i do that? Im not gonna argue anymore, im just gonna listen, i feel like sh*t teak, i don’t know what to do, i hate life so much

    You’ve asked me that several times before, and every time I tried to give you an answer, you said it was “bullshit” and that it’s not applicable to you. If you still feel the same about the things I’ve said (related to the possibility of healing and changing one’s attitude about life), I can’t help you unfortunately because my advice would be the same as before.

    #387368
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Giving up to the idea of fate, luck, chance whatever you want to call it is my kryptonite.

    For me its like giving up my mind, the most thing i value, the control i think i have.

     

    I think i understand your replay now, more then ever, it makes sense

     

    I think that is true but is a something that you can’t ‘will’ into being , one can allow it

    But where does it come from? How its gonna appear? How can i allow it?

     

    Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice

    I have this doubt that makes it impossible to know something for sure, even if i got all the possible info, there would be still some missing info, some gusses, and depending on luck and randomness, i can’t have that, i don’t trust that, i started to feel that whatever choice im gonna make, its gonna be just as disappointing as picking it randomly.

     

    Shame for being a something that is wrong more then shame for having done something wrong

    I thought the definition of shame is that you are the wrong and not the action you did, the latter would be gulit.

     

    I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force”

    Did it happen yet? Did the third force got any closer? For me i can’t do that, i can relay on hope, it feels like im lying to myself, something i despise.

     

    That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it

    But this is the only conciseness i have, “all i know, is what i know”

     

    Zen concept of doing by not doing, the act of will which evolves the letting go of ‘will’

    I don’t think i ever can surrounder the idea that i don’t have control over my life, it means i will betray myself

     

    I have this problem, anything that doesn’t follow my beliefs and thoughts is betraying myself, i can’t do something i think is useless, i can’t talk to people while thinking its a waste of time, or i will hate myself.

     

    we work for that which no work is required….
    This is not Passive but a Active engagement that does not ‘hold on’, that lets go of “itself”, its outcomes….creating space…

    I don’t think i will ever understand what this truely mean, i will always use my bais mind to understand this, to take it as an excuse to do the bare minimum, to surrounder on life, not do anything to fix anything, just live.

     

    It takes a healthy ego to let go of ego and engage

    Wouldn’t i need the latter to allow me have the first? How can i have healthy ego?

     

    Actually Joe is the kind of Guy that panic’s when a choices is required

    How can you make a choice, when you know the consequences of both choices, when you know the unnecessary suffering both might have, when you know your decision is effected by your mood and feelings of that moment, that you might have chosen differently if you had a different day, or ate a good breakfast

    #387369
    Murtaza
    Participant

    You’ve asked me that several times before, and every time I tried to give you an answer, you said it was “bullshit” and that it’s not applicable to you

    Can’t i just have a little bit without going the whole journey? Can’t i just feel good for a while without changing and betraying my whole life and self?

     

    If you still feel the same about the things I’ve said

    I do, i believe that healing is bullshit for me, i don’t know how to change that without first seeing that it isn’t, a proof, every experience of mine is against it.

     

    There is no hope is there? I just don’t understand why this stops me for having love, my beliefs doesn’t effect any people, why do i have to beg people to love me, why the only love i can get is from my own mind, what’s wrong with me

    #387370
    Murtaza
    Participant

    about a guy who wonders what would have happened had he made a different choice at his graduation. The choice was a minor one

    I think that its impossible to choose other things if we ever rewind time, with the same thought pattern/the same atoms of that event, the same everything, we would choose the same thing

     

    I think its only possible if we changed the things that made him do the action, or chance. Chance that at this moment and time something werid happen to him, a person or a thought entered his mind and changed his decision, its a rare possibility, but still possible.

    #387373
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza

    For me its like giving up my mind, the most thing i value, the control i think i have.

    Totally get that.

    Like you I desire to have all the info before making a choice

    I have this doubt that makes it impossible to know something for sure, even if i got all the possible info, there would be still some missing info, some gusses, and depending on luck and randomness, i can’t have that, i don’t trust that, i started to feel that whatever choice im gonna make, its gonna be just as disappointing as picking it randomly.

    Lots to unpack here. You have this doubt that it makes it impossible to know with certainty.  But you don’t doubt this. You “know” with certainty that certainty is not possible, some unknows will always be involved in any choice.  You can’t or do not want to accept what you ‘know’  which is getting in the way of you finding a ‘skillful’ way of living with what you know.  One of the things  noted in your comments is that they show no indication of being in doubt. You have no doubt about the present which you tend to project into the future which is going to be “just as disappointing” as if picked randomly = no control = despair.

    The one certainty I have is that ‘We very easily create what we Fear’ more so then what we hope for. I know this because I do it (and observe it) all the time.

    I guess I still have a kind of hope. Hope that the “third force”

    Did it happen yet? Did the third force got any closer? For me i can’t do that, i can relay on hope, it feels like im lying to myself, something i despise.

    That the conciseness of which you experience your problems can’t be the same conciseness that solves it

    But this is the only conciseness i have, “all i know, is what i know”

    I did a horrible job trying to articulate that. Perhaps because its not only ‘mind’ thing, not a thinking thing… I’ll try a story

    A sparrow is trapped in a empty old grain silo. During the day the sun shines through the cracks in the wall and in panic the bird flutters around checking out each ray of light hoping for a why out but the cracks are never big enough. Every night the bird lies exhausted, disappointed, in the dark, depressed. This cycle continues until the bird no longer checks out the rays of light for escape. To depressed to be depressed at rock bottom the sparrow finds itself ’empty’ – stops thinking, dreaming, worrying, even hoping… this emptying is a happening not a something willed for if the sparrow thinks this is not what it wants. In this emptiness , this space, this quietness, the sparrow notices a breeze coming from a small hole in the ground that it had never noticed before. Entering into a dark hole in the ground is the last thing the sparrow would ever had imagined itself doing, one of the reasons perhaps it was not conscious of it before. Terrified the sparrow enters the dark tunnel that goes deep into the ground until it eventually leads upward and into the world.

    The third force and ‘new’ consciousness is the breeze from the dark hole in the ground the sparrow felt and did not come from  the mind in which it was stuck. While the sparrow was franticly fluttering around seeking out ever crack of light for a answer or laying defeated on the ground stuck in its mind/fear it was blind to the experience of the breeze. It is only when the sparrow  detaches from mind, fear, depression, hope even love… that the third happens and the way out becomes conscious.   Not known as the sparrow cannot know what lies within the dark hole. Only that the breeze was fresh air (new level of knowing). The way out is not up but down. The sparrow lived happy ever after… when one day it found it self in a house with no obvious way out…

    The way out (any new level of knowing/consciousness) is not up but down.  Letting go (emptying) of the thinking (mind) that keeps you stuck which I know is terrifying.

     

     

     

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