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  • #315661
    PJ
    Participant

    So my first post here, but I am hoping someone can give me some constructive feedback. I am a 39 year old man, been married for 11 years, together with my wife for 15 years. We have 2 beautiful children together and have a somewhat normal household. The relationship with my wife is relatively good, in terms that we get along, have the same vision for raising our children and running our household; but in terms of physical intimacy, emotional connection and communication we fall very short in this department. Any time I try to bring up our awkward sex life or lack of intimacy (sometimes 4-5 months of not being intimate for the past 8 years or so and up to a year after our small tragedy below) I get the answer that she is very reserved in this department (a prude in her words). I respect her wishes, but lately it feels like our friendship is the only thing keeping us going. The minimal expectation of what a romantic relationship should be is no where to be seen with us.

    About year ago my wife was pregnant with our third child and after almost 38 weeks, she had complications with child birth, long story short a placental abrubtion caused our son to be still born. Approximately 13-14 months prior to this she had a miscarriage. Needless to say the past year to year and a half have been quite stressful in terms of pregnancy and loss. Both my wife and I (along with the kids, 8 & 6 years old) were completely devastated by losing our son. My wife who is a very strong women, has difficulty showing emotion sometimes when it comes to death. She has lost both of her parents and I, my father and understand what it is like to lose a parent. Although, we did grieve briefly together at the hospital, I could only muster to take about a week off of work after our son died, while my wife was able to take almost 2 months off.

    About 1-2 months after my son died, reality really started to sink in. I was (is) feeling very lonely and alone in my grieving. I had mentioned this to my wife and after some discussion, she felt she had come to terms as to what happened with our son and that she felt she had moved on. She briefly mentioned on how after consulting with her doctor that we may be able to try again for another baby in 12-18 months. I was shocked after this conversation as I was still trying to come to terms with my son’s death and that there was no way I was ready to even think about trying for another baby, if ever. Since my wife had “moved on” it was business as usual at our household, like nothing had really happened the previous 2 months, maybe this was her way of still dealing with the loss, but for me it drove me deeper into loneliness as I felt I was grieving by myself. I have no real close friends to consult with and my mother who is very comforting, has been some help, but has difficulty understanding the dynamic of my marriage after this incident.

    Sorry to be long winded, but fast forward 4 months after my son’s death a co-worker of mine (who is married and has 2 children) became very supportive in terms of listening and understanding my grief for the loss of my son. One night at a company training she kissed me. Stating that she had always had a crush on me and that getting to know me the past few weeks had really solidified her feelings for me. To be honest I was surprised, but not totally as I had a small crush on her, as well. But like all inter-office interactions you keep your feelings to yourself and proceed professionally. After a few weeks we had been able to keep our distance and brushed the incident off as to nothing more that a small attraction.

    As my wife and I went our separate ways in terms of grieving, I could not stop thinking about this other women. She was unlike anything my wife was (is) in terms of sexuality, openness, nurturing and support. Needless to say we had a weak moment and before we knew it our friendship had turned into an affair. This lasted for approximately 6 months and in terms of what I have done to my wife (even though she does not know), I feel extremely guilty, not to mention that I have not been setting a very good example for my children. The affair in of itself was something that I have never experienced, and what I mean by that is that I have never felt so close to someone, not even in my prior romantic relationships or my marriage. This woman and I really do have quite the connection. I have been to counseling to talk about the emptiness I feel about losing my son and I have tried to re-engage in my marriage only to fall deeper into loneliness and to seek comfort from this other women. The situation is very complicated in that we both know that breaking up our families would be extremely hard on the kids, especially long term, but I can’t shake the feelings I have for this women (or her for me). She stood by me at my darkest moments, where my wife should have been. And I feel that I have failed as a husband, as I thought that my wife would need me to lean on; as that I feel would have helped with my healing.

    As for the affair, we decided to end it, only to save our kids from the collateral damage of physically tearing apart our families. I guess what I am having difficulty with is re-engaging in my marriage, as I feel that the romantic side of things have been lacking for so many years; how do we even begin to get it back on track. Everything was so effortless and freeing with this other women, she brought out the best in me and I felt myself when I was with her; unlike anything I have ever felt with my wife. Any constructive advice anyone can give for being torn in happiness for themselves and happiness for their kids is greatly appreciated.

    #315819
    Inky
    Participant

    Hi PJ,

    I am so sorry about the miscarriage and stillbirth. Having been through it, it really does a number on the family. Grief is a funny thing and everyone goes through it differently. Your wife is not “over it”, she is processing it in a certain way.

    It would be best to stay married to your wife until your youngest goes to college.

    You really don’t want to blow up everyone’s life by divorcing in the middle of child raising. If this other woman is  a forever person, she will still be there several years from now.

    Best,

    Inky

    #315855
    Peggy
    Participant

    Hi PJ,

    There’s a real mix going on here.  You’ve suffered grief and loss, you’ve not been able to give and receive the support that should have existed between you and your wife and, lo and behold, a woman came into your life who could bring you that comfort that you so needed.  I really don’t think that you should be feeling guilty under the circumstances.

    There is not much physical intimacy, emotional connection and communication between your wife and yourself.  The loss of your child has brought this all to a head.  You cannot re-engage with your wife when you weren’t really engaging in the first place and what ‘track’ exactly do you want to get it back on.  The one where you are co-existing as a brother and sister might.

    As you don’t really have a support system other than your mother, I think it might be wise if you were to consult a bereavement counselor to help you deal with your loss before making any decisions regarding your marriage.  Staying together for the sake of the children is not always the best choice.

    Best wishes

    Peggy

     

    #315857
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear PJ:

    To understand better, I ask:

    You’ve been in a relationship with a woman from the age of 24 to 28 before you married her. How were those four years “in terms of physical intimacy, emotional connection and communication”?

    anita

    #315863
    PJ
    Participant

    First off, I want to say thank you to all who read through my post, I know it was long and I appreciate you all taking the time to comment. It means a lot.

    There are some good points here, especially from Peggy. What track do I want to get back on? Jeez living as friends only or even more terrifying, brother & sister is not something I would be looking forward to and honestly if we only could get back to where we were when we were dating, I really don’t think that would do it for me. To be honest our 4 years of dating were ok. We have always had trouble in terms of communication on any real issues concerning our relationship. The years of dating my wife in my book were just ok. I have been in other relationships where physical intimacy, emotional connection and communication was not a huge issue. But what attracted me to my wife was that her personality was totally different from anyone else I dated. She made me laugh and we got along very well. Her inexperience (meaning I was her first serious relationship) in relationships was one issue that I first had, but I figured that things would work themselves out. And they did for a little bit. Quite frankly during the 4 years of dating no one else came along to make me question my decision. After we got married and bought our first house was when I first really notice a decline in physical intimacy and emotional connection. We rarely talked about anything else but our day, we were on different schedules and as much as I tried to keep the spark alive, there were many times that I reached out only to be shutdown or questioned as to why I think that she didn’t love me anymore. I was committed though and honestly I don’t give up on things very easily, I loved and cared for her very much and I thought she was worth it to try and correct anything I thought was an issue. But it can be very hard to change someones “values” or “convictions” to conform to yours. Make no mistake, though, my wife is a good and generous person, great mother to our kids and an extremely hard worker at home and her job.

    The death of my son has really magnified the issues that we have in our relationship and I don’t want to abandon my wife and kids in a time when there is so much pain, but I can’t help “fix” my family if I can’t “fix” myself first. I am not using that as an excuse for the affair, but god when someone comes along and walks beside you in your pain, it’s hard to not follow it. And it is extremely depressing and sad when that person is not your significant other. So the biggest question to me, is if we can’t weather this storm together now, will we ever be able to weather another one or will I be out on my island again. Thanks all.

    #315875
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear PJ:

    You are welcome.

    Your wife is “a good person and generous person, great mother ..and an extremely hard worker at home and her job”-

    – you shouldn’t have betrayed a good and generous person” day in and day out, week after week for six whole months.

    I know you don’t want to feel guilty, but before discarding it listen to the message behind it: you betrayed a good, generous woman, a good mother to your own two children, so you said.

    “The years of dating my wife in my book were just ok”, but your lover of six months, who is someone else’s wife and a mother to two children of her own, she was way better than okay, “never felt so close to someone, not even in my prior romantic relationships or my marriage”.

    The reason you married your wife is because “no one else came along to make me question my decision”. But now someone did come along to question your decision.

    As painful as it is for you and your wife to have lost this baby, it is not what kept you in the affair. What kept you in the affair is that you met a woman who was way better than okay, and now, okay is not good enough.

    I suggest that before another pregnancy happens in your marriage, that a separation takes place. Co parent your two children as a team. If she is the great mother you say she is, she will do her best to co parent her children with you.

    It may be a good idea for you and your wife to attend couple counseling not for the purpose of continuing the marriage but for the purpose of proceeding to co parent your children and protect your children from any and all possible expressions of hostility between their parents.

    It is not divorce in itself that hurts children so much- it is the hostility involved. Take that factor away, and a divorce seems to me like the right step ahead, for you, for your wife and for your children.

    anita

    #315929
    Valora
    Participant

    I just have one thing I would like to single out a little bit, and I don’t know if it will help or not, but it might help to change your perspective a little:

     She stood by me at my darkest moments, where my wife should have been. And I feel that I have failed as a husband, as I thought that my wife would need me to lean on; as that I feel would have helped with my healing.

    I am not using that as an excuse for the affair, but god when someone comes along and walks beside you in your pain, it’s hard to not follow it. And it is extremely depressing and sad when that person is not your significant other. So the biggest question to me, is if we can’t weather this storm together now, will we ever be able to weather another one or will I be out on my island again.

    You seem to be putting expectations on your wife on how you think she should be handling her grief. What do you think those expectations are exactly if you were to list them, and do you think those expectations are fair under the specific circumstances?

    Being realistic here, a stillborn child is not just a storm for a couple to weather, it’s a tsunami. When a woman carries a child, especially to almost full-term, there is an unspeakable bond with that child that most people won’t understand unless they actually go through a pregnancy. It’s an amaaazing experience but it’s also a lot of HARD WORK, pain, nausea, hunger, weight gain, worry, and let’s not even get started on actually giving birth. I cannot imagine physically and emotionally going through an entire pregnancy and then having a stillborn child.

    I am not trying to minimize your pain and what you’re going through in any way, but I think you should maybe look at what your wife is going through a different way. She’s had to go through everything you went through plus the added physical issues of pregnancy and recovery to add salt in her wounds, many of which you’re not going to be able to truly understand because you haven’t experienced pregnancy. She had to handle that in whatever way she needed to handle that, even if that meant her pretending like it didn’t happen (which was probably the only way she could function at the time, I’m guessing) and even if that meant she wasn’t there for you, walking beside you in your darkest moments… it’s likely she was going through something darker. Again, I’m truly not trying to minimize your grief as I can’t imagine how difficult it has been for you, but it’s just that added component that women have with going through an entire pregnancy, birth, and recovery, that men don’t have to deal with.  Have you thought of it that way before?

    Then there is the other woman… she wasn’t dealing with major grief when she was there for you, walking beside you in your pain, right? If not, it was likely EASY for her to be there for you at that time, far easier than it ever would’ve been for your wife.

    I just have to wonder if your feelings for her are extra heightened because of the emotional state you were in when you started the affair. I think, when people are going through grief, ANY good feelings that people are able to have tend to feel AMAZING (heightened because of the contrast). She was helping to relieve your grief, so you now associate her with relief, and you also saw her as giving you something your wife wasn’t, while probably not realizing that it was easier for her to give it to you because she was not dealing with her own trauma at the time. I can also see how sharing with someone all of your feelings about the death of a child would make you feel closer to them. Did you have any sort of flirty attraction with this woman before all of this happened?

    #315953
    Peggy
    Participant

    Hi PJ,

    As you’ve found out, you cannot change someone else, in this case your wife.  The only person you can change is you.  We’ve established that there were always elements in your relationship that were lacking and it is up to you to decide whether or not you can continue living as a couple knowing that fundamentally as things stand you are not suited.  Your wife sounds as if she has some valuable qualities that you respect and this, no doubt, makes it difficult for you to leave.

    With regard to the physical aspect of your marriage, I suggest that you broach this subject with your wife with the intention of seeking professional help with a sex therapist.  There’s a reason why the intimacy is lacking in your marriage and any  psychological aspects pertaining to this should be explored.  If she values you as a husband and she realizes how important this is to you, then she should agree to this.  Once this physical block has been released, you might find that the emotional connection happens of its own accord.

    With regard to your children, they will handle the loss of your baby according to how you and your wife handle it.  They will take the cue from you.  As long as they know that it’s OK to feel sad, that people meet with disappointments along the way but life goes on and we all have to make the best of it, then you’ll have gone a long way towards ‘fixing’ them.  Nothing can take the experience away.  Leave the door open for them to discuss it if they want to.  I don’t know if you have a garden, but perhaps you could create a memory space for this lost child.  It doesn’t need to be much.  Just enough to contain a small plant or flowering bush, a few pebbles or polished stones, a place for a candle to be lit.

    I hope you can work through this.

    Peggy

    #315965
    PJ
    Participant

    Peggy/Anita-

     

    Thank you so much for the comments they are appreciated.

    I’ll try and organize my thoughts here, but please excuse me if I wander some.

    Admittedly I have not been handling this in the healthiest of ways and I know I have been extremely selfish in what I have done, hence why I feel so guilty about the whole affair situation. As for what my wife feels, I am sure she feels all the things mentioned above. She just keeps it bottled up inside and goes on with her day. I understand that people grieve in different ways. But when our son died, I thought ok, we can do this together, you can lean on me and I’ll lean on you and we can heal together. When we had our other children that was exactly what we did, we “suffered” together. Meaning we tag-teamed in night feedings, sickness, diaper changes. All the things that go on with taking care of a newborn. I expected that we would do the same with our loss. So you can imagine how disappointing and heart wrenching it felt when my wife said that she had “moved on” She never leaned on me for any comfort and it felt like I was standing out there on my own. I was supposed to take care of her and it was like she never needed me for that. So coming to grips with that was (is) very hard for me. Along with the fact that our relationship had been on cruise control for a few years, presented a lonely and isolating feeling. I know the affair was not the way to handle any of this, but having the feeling of being loved again was very refreshing and yes I am sure a lot of this has to do with the loss of my son and my need to feel anything to fill the emptiness inside of me. I have been to counseling and it has been a long road, I have only begun to scratch the surface as to what I feel about in losing my son, trying to mend a passionless marriage and also trying to understand why I fell so easily into an affair. I know I am not going to solve these problems here on this forum, but I welcome the insight everyone has shared. I tend to be a pretty open minded individual and I try and look at all perspectives presented.

    As for my kids we do allow and encourage them to ask questions as to what happened to my son, we tell them it’s ok to feel sad and cry when we miss someone we love. I don’t think they fully understand as to what happened, but I am hoping as the years go by we get them to understand and hopefully if a situation arises like this in their life, they can handle it better than I have been handling it. Thanks again.

    #315969
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear PJ:

    I don’t know if you still intend to reply to Valora- but her post is very worthy of reading and re-reading, insightful, thoughtful, thorough. Valora wrote about your wife: “she had to handle (stillbirth) in whatever way she needed to handle that, even if that meant her pretending like it didn’t happen.. the only way she could function… she wasn’t there for you, walking beside you in your darkest moments….it’s likely she was going through something darker“.

    – “the only way she could function”, is to be that “great mother.. and an extremely hard worker at home and her job“- that you wrote about your wife.

    If she fell into depression following the loss of the baby, her two living children would suffer a lot, and she wouldn’t be able to work at home and outside, keeping a well maintained home for you as well as bringing in money.

    Maybe she thought you will feel better if you saw her feeling better and functioning well- maybe she thought moving on was going to help you too.

    Let’s look at this: a great mother, an extremely hard worker at home and at her job- that is a lot to be thankful for in a wife, isn’t it?

    While your wife was parenting your children so well, keeping the house clean, cooking, earning a paycheck, another woman who also has a husband, a home and two children is busy- not parenting her children, not keeping her home but adding some fun into her work day by having sex with .. you. She gets a lot of credit, this other woman, in your mind. She gets that credit because she is ‘hot’, sexual, makes you feel sexually/ emotionally wonderful.

    That sexual/ emotional good experience is why you had the six months affair.

    I don’t think your wife is aware of this sentiment of yours:  “The years of dating my wife in my book were just ok”, and that after marrying her, she got to be even less than just-ok in your book.

    She doesn’t know. Or maybe she does. What if she knows it but.. pretends she doesn’t, because pretending is how she keeps functioning well?

    anita

     

    #315989
    PJ
    Participant

    Anita/Valora-

    I did see the post from Valora and I appreciate the feedback as to what my wife may be feeling. I try to understand the pain she may be going through and I know the scars both physical and emotional will always be there. But I can’t pretend to know what she may be going thorough, as dark as they may be, if she doesn’t present it; even when asked.

    This statement from above: Maybe she thought you will feel better if you saw her feeling better and functioning well- maybe she thought moving on was going to help you too. Takes into a lot of assumptions as to what I may be feeling, when I clearly stated that I was not happy with the way we were handling things. And you make the affair sound like I was out all night, never home, never paying bills, never taking care of our small farm, never running the kids to school or activities, never feeding the kids and making dinner so my wife could go out with friends or ride her horses, never cleaning or pitching in to help our household run. We share the responsibilities and I am thankful that she works hard both at home and at work. But marriage is more than just shouldering responsibilities and I know I have violated that trust.

    I don’t know if you have ever been in a relationship as to where your physical/emotional needs have gone unfulfilled, but the death of our son has really brought into question the stability of the foundation of our relationship to the forefront and magnified the holes in our marriage. I know the affair does not help this in any respect.

    #315997
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear PJ:

    Well, seems to me that my earlier suggestion is a good one- that you and your wife attend quality couple counseling, not for the purpose of remaining marriage but for the purpose of ending the marriage in the best way possible, so the kids don’t get hurt unnecessarily.

    Within such counseling, with the mediating of an effective counselor or therapist, the two of you will learn how to proceed with a separation and divorce in the most peaceful way  possible, expressing no hostility toward each other in the presence of the children, co-parenting in an organized, efficient way.

    (for this purpose better she doesn’t know about the affair, no reason to reveal that, nor is there a reason to reveal your frustrations with her, it being just-ok with her and so  on).

    I think the children will be in a better situation having two separated parents who get along very well (no aggression whatsoever) than with a mother who doesn’t seem to know the nature of her marriage, who plans on getting pregnant with you yet again, and a father who is frustrated and so unhappy in the marriage.

    The love you want from a woman- find it elsewhere as a separated and divorced man. That way you betray no one- and no guilt.

    anita

     

    #316003
    PJ
    Participant

    Anita-

    I am sorry if my last post sounded curt. I am just frustrated with a lot of things. I do appreciate the feedback and your opinion, as well as everyone else’s. Very hard to come to grips that my relationship is failing or has failed and that the kids may suffer as a result. Thanks.

    #316009
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear PJ:

    You are welcome. I understand, I think, how difficult it is for you now. Like I wrote, kids suffer most from aggression. In addition to no aggression, they need to be seen and heard, most important. So many children suffer from being invisible to their parents, they suffer in homes where their parents are married.

    See them, listen to them, make sure they don’t observe aggression between their parents (or aggression turned against them)- and you will be doing an excellent job as a father, or continue to do an excellent job as a father.

    anita

    #316023
    Valora
    Participant

    I did see the post from Valora and I appreciate the feedback as to what my wife may be feeling. I try to understand the pain she may be going through and I know the scars both physical and emotional will always be there. But I can’t pretend to know what she may be going thorough, as dark as they may be, if she doesn’t present it; even when asked.

    I think that was my point, really. You can’t possibly understand the pain she is going through, but yet you were placing expectations on her on how she should have handled her grief and the situation.

    For example:

    But when our son died, I thought ok, we can do this together, you can lean on me and I’ll lean on you and we can heal together. When we had our other children that was exactly what we did, we “suffered” together. Meaning we tag-teamed in night feedings, sickness, diaper changes. All the things that go on with taking care of a newborn. I expected that we would do the same with our loss. So you can imagine how disappointing and heart wrenching it felt when my wife said that she had “moved on” She never leaned on me for any comfort and it felt like I was standing out there on my own. I was supposed to take care of her and it was like she never needed me for that

    Do you see the problem with doing this? Placing expectations? You sounded upset with your wife over this, but it may have been you and your own expectations that disappointed you rather than how your wife chose to cope with the death of her child. From what you’ve written, it sounds like you were expecting things to be handled a certain way, even though there is no right or wrong way to go through grief and people cope in many different ways…. then when your expectations that you had set weren’t met, it increased a negative opinion you have of your marriage and your wife.

     

    I’m sort of focusing on this just so that you’re aware of it… when you place expectations on how you think people should handle things or have a preconceived idea of how they will be handled, it increases relationship negativity and tension when the person handles them any other way than how you think they will… because you will feel disappointed and feel like they weren’t meeting your needs or expectations, which really isn’t fair to them. It’s sort of an important lesson to learn no matter who you’re in a relationship with. And this is especially important to understand in this case because your expectations absolutely added to your negative feelings towards your wife, and if you decide you want to fix things, in order to do so, you have to take ownership of your part in your own negative feelings. I hope the way I’m explaining this makes sense.

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