July 26, 2022 at 10:51 am #404589
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Hello. I write here to hear other people’s view, since my own is probably twisted. Also I have no idea how did this post become this long.</p>
I am 32 years old male. I had a very abusive past, which resulted in me expecting the worst from people and distancing myself from them. I’ve been working on my mental issues ever since I took interest in meditation and I’m probably better now than I was before.
I don’t have a job. I live in my single mother’s flat and eat her food. I don’t think it’s healthy and I wish to change that for the better. In the past I’ve been working thankless jobs to exaustion and don’t want to do that anymore. I want my work to have a meaning and to have a proper human rest.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>I am studying so I can get the proper job that might follow my calling, although not as diligently and hard as I would’ve liked. It would probably be some years before I can pay my bills.</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>I have never held a girl’s hand. I’d like to change that. My guarded attitude left me with no social circle. I believe my only option is to approach a girl in public places, on the streets. Even though in the past I’ve been led to believe that any such male attention is repugnant to women, I think that has to be false. Especially if you treat people with respect and courtesy.</p>
But I can’t really do this. I would be lying if I said that I don’t fear girl’s rejection. But I think what’s stopping me are my own values and beliefs.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Because how dare I approach a girl if I live unemployed with my mother, like a little kid? How dare I ask her out if I don’t have a place of my own or can’t reliably rent it for long period of time?</p>
Because of my situation I feel myself less than a man. I’m afraid I might never know what an opposite gender is and what it’s like to be with someone. My situation with women torments me and I am struggling to take any steps on the path of rectifying it.July 26, 2022 at 11:52 am #404592
Dear Silent Rossi:
It occurred to me, as I was reading your original post, that it is very different from the many thousands of posts that I read in these forums since 2015 (the year I became a member here). There is a simple, straightforward, bare and rare honesty in your writing that I didn’t encounter before: factual, no wishful thinking/ fantasy, no rationalizations, no efforts to make yourself look better (or worse) than you are, no efforts to be liked: just the facts with a touch of decency (caring to “treat people with respect and courtesy”).
These are huge pluses that you can offer a woman in a future relationship.
“I am 32 years old male. I had a very abusive past, which resulted in me expecting the worst from people and distancing myself from them… I’m probably better now than I was before“- factual, exact, and so is the rest of your post. You asked for other people’s views on your story.
My view: from all that you shared and based only on what you shared, I think that you are good enough for many girls (not “Not good enough for any girl”, the title of your thread). I think that with the right woman, it will be much easier for you to change the things that you want to change than it would be alone: (1) to live independently from your mother, (2) to get a meaningful, non-exhausting job, and (3) to complete your studies.
I think that it will not be a good plan to wait until you accomplish these goals before you approach a woman for a relationship.
“I believe my only option is to approach a girl in public places, on the streets“- or in a coffee shop… or online, in one of the better online dating choices?
“I would be lying if I said that I don’t fear girl’s rejection… how dare I approach a girl if I live unemployed with my mother, like a little kid?… Because of my situation I feel myself less than a man“- almost every man who is employed and who has his own place, gets rejected by women. And so, I imagine that you will be rejected as well. I am guessing that the statistical chances for you will be rejected are higher than it is for men with a better relationship-resume (being employed, having one’s own place, etc.). But thing is, you only need one woman for a relationship. She will need to be a woman whose thinking is not rigidly conventional (ex, thinking that a man must have a job before dating him).
Her thinking needs to be outside the box, thinking along the lines that a Win-Win relationship can help her- and her partner (you)- to function better in life, having the attitude that Together, We Can Do what We Can’t Do Alone”.
Coming to think about it, if you join an online dating app (Plenty of Fish used to be free of charge), what I boldfaced right above could be the title of your profile, maybe… ?
anitaJuly 26, 2022 at 12:03 pm #404593
Hi Silent Rossi
If you stand on a street and ask people out you will disproportionate volume of rejections. Rarely, will women say yes in that scenario. It depends what things are like in your area. Speed dating can be a good option. Or if there are any meet ups for friendship, or hobby groups it might be a good idea to develop these things more organically. There is always online dating.
Because of the economy people are living with their parents in their 30s unless they have a partner or roommates. I don’t think there is any shame in being a student. Would you be interested in part time work on the side?
Personally, I think dating people who are going through challenging circumstances is a good way to get a sense of their personalities. There is e a saying that you don’t know what someone is truly like until you’ve lived with them and seen them experience hardship.
I think the thing you might get the most judgement for from potential partners at your age is being a virgin (depending on culture). But you don’t necessarily have to divulge that personal information.
My advice is to work on socialising in general. Make some good friends and you never know, you might meet someone you like. Plus this is a good way to get to know people and screen out abusive types. The downside to this method is it takes time. Actively dating you will meet more potential partners, but the quality can be iffy.July 28, 2022 at 4:16 am #404651
Thank you for your opinions and kind words, Anita and Helcat. It is very refreshing to hear those.
Regarding online dating – my impression of online chatting was that it consumes a lot of hours and leaves you just about where you started – with no human contact. As far as I know, population of any dating service consists mostly men, so an average guy has to battle for a girl’s attention among hundreds of other guys. I might be wrong on this, but I think online dating isn’t a good place for anyone.
I am convinced I stand a better chance talking to an alive human being face to face rather than swiping and messaging hundreds of non-descriptive profiles.
Even though I have no trouble speaking to and being around people, I am very much reluctant to step on the path of connecting with people of opposite gender. But hopefully I will be able to take at least few steps.
Thank you for your attention to my problem.July 28, 2022 at 6:40 am #404653
Dear Silent Rossi:
You are very welcome. “Regarding online dating – my impression of online chatting was that it consumes a lot of hours and leaves you just about where you started – with no human contact” –
– to chat means “to engage in casual or rambling conversation” (Merriam-Webster dictionary), and I guess that rambling casually online would lead to many unproductive hours. But if you initiate and direct meaningful conversations with people online, such that explore who you truly are, and who the others truly are, that could lead to meaningful human contacts online and in-person.
Our communication right here is not chatting for me: I am not casually rambling to you. Instead, I take my time and think of what I write and then I re-write it in the hope that it will be of some benefit to you, knowing that if it is, you may write me back.
“an average guy has to battle for a girl’s attention among hundreds of other guys. I might be wrong on this, but I think online dating isn’t a good place for anyone”-
-if online dating is a place where a guy has to battle, fight, struggle.. that would indeed be a bad place for any guy. But what if there is no battle, no struggle, only an honest intent and easy attitude about getting to know people and placing yourself out there to be known- wouldn’t that be a good place?
“I am convinced I stand a better chance talking to an alive human being face to face rather than swiping and messaging hundreds of non-descriptive profiles“- you can put together and present a descriptive profile of yourself and look for descriptive profiles of women, such that will make a conversation possible. Following a successful online exchange, you can arrange to meet women in-person for a face to face conversation.
“I am very much reluctant to step on the path of connecting with people of opposite gender“- you wrote in your original post that you had a very abusive past and therefore, you expect the worst from people. I wonder if you expect the worst from women (more than you expect from men)?
anitaJuly 28, 2022 at 7:59 am #404649JupiterParticipant
As a woman, I must say that the attitude behind this is frustrating to me. If you believe you aren’t good enough for “any” woman, then what you’re saying is that every woman is interchangeable and all want the same thing.
Women are people. Individuals, human beings. They have different standards, desires, interests and beliefs. Too many people think that getting a life partner is like fishing at the side of a pond, where the only thing that matters is getting a fish. It doesn’t matter which fish takes the bait, because they’re all fish, right?
Finding a partner means finding a real human being, who has the same shared interests as you and who wants to build a life in the same way as you. She isn’t there to wash your socks, cook your meals and validate your insecurities. I’m not just saying this as a feminist and survivor of domestic abuse, I’m saying this as someone who can guarantee that having unrealistic expectations of what a relationship can do for you is going to bring you a lot of pain and misery, and is also a waste.
Having unrealistic expectations will cut you off from the joy of finding real connections. If you just approach women at random in the street, you may indeed get rejected and even called a creep which will hurt you and reinforce your beliefs. But you’re also harming yourself, because if you tried to find someone you had something in common with, rather than picking some random girl off the street, then you will have a much better chance of connection. Finding a hobby, going on dating sites, taking a class you’ve always wanted to do — these are much more likely to bring you into contact with women you have something in common with.
I was once the target of a very insecure man. He seemed genuine and sweet so I let my guard down and we started dating. What I didn’t know is that he didn’t care about me as a person at all. He was only interested in finding a girlfriend, and had asked out every other girl I knew before getting to me. Rather than building a life together, he was holding me to a near-mythical standard of some magical goddess who was supposed to make everything better in his life. He was angry, insecure, jealous, and became increasingly controlling when I didn’t bring about the changes he expected. He blamed me for all his wounds not being fixed. In the end he became abusive and endangered my life. After the police got involved, I never saw him again. Did he ever change? No — it all simply reinforced the idea that he was rotten and that no woman was ever going to love him.
He did not start out that way. He started out being damaged, genuine, and worthy of love. If he let go of his outdated attitude towards women, and tried to find a genuine connection with one who was willing to be a friend and equal partner, then all of that could have been avoided.
You deserve love and real connection. You deserve a partner who is compassionate, caring. An equal and a friend. Maybe only 1%, or 5%, of women will have the right qualities you need, but that’s okay. No matter how broken you feel, you have to trust that the right person will come along eventually, and not seize upon the first girl that smiles at you as some kind of rare commodity. The most important part of any meaningful relationship is being able to let go when it isn’t working, and trust that there will be something better in future. I don’t think you’re there right now, which is going to put unrealistic pressure on any girl who might so much as give you her phone number or agree to a first date.July 28, 2022 at 9:10 am #404661
I do not deny that it is possible to have a meaningful connection online, but I think general audience of dating services and format of conversation doesn’t encourage it.
I don’t think I’ve seen a profile where a girl would write anything at all. They would just upload photos and wait for messages. Nothing wrong with that – it works for them, guys do write them. Doesn’t really work for me. They say guys care only for looks, but I don’t see how that can be true.
It just seems to me that getting rejected by ten girls in real life is a more enjoyable experience than sending similiar messages into the void and waiting days for an answer.
I don’t think I expect some gender to be more vile than the other. My conditioning was that having sexual desire toward women is bad, and letting anyone know it is criminal offence.
I remember there was this time when I was in a better mental state and I asked a girl out. It turned out she was married, but she took her time to thank me and to let me know that she was flattered and grateful. She seemed sincere.
My mind won’t register such information. Sexual desire is malignant intent, and expressing it to anyone is unspeakable crime. Sounds ridiculous and silly, but to me it’s a fundamental truth about the world.
I’m rambling too much. Please do not mind it. I think it’s pretty obvious that such issues are not to be solved by someone outside my head, and have to be found and confronted by myself.July 28, 2022 at 9:54 am #404663
Hello, Jupiter. Thank you for your reply. It is good to know other points of view.
I do see why you would make such assumprions about myself – my story does seem like general story of a modern “involuntary celibate”, or an “insec”. A guy who idealizes women and hates them at the same time, expecting someone else to solve his life.
I tell you true, I probably was that kind of person some five or six years ago.
I am also disheartened every time I hear a story such as you described.
You are right about one thing, though. I do deny women humanity, the same way I deny humanity to all people, men and women, myself included. I do struggle to keep away from extreme nihilistic views, and this is the reason why I don’t care to treat people with anything but compassion. There was already enough pain caused at the hands of people, no need to breed more of it.
So yes, I hate people in general and I would like to think that I do treat properly every human being I interact with. It’s just that I didn’t really interact with women.July 28, 2022 at 10:38 am #404664
Dear Silent Rossi:
I don’t think that you are rambling, not in my perception.
“It’s pretty obvious that such issues are not to be solved by someone outside my head” – someone outside your head (such as me) can help you move closer to being able to solve issues. It is also true that someone outside your head can hurt your ability to solve issues. It is important to be selective, on an online forum and in real life, as to whom you choose to interact with, and whom you choose to not interact with.
Solving emotional issues is not possible for a person to do all on his own, all inside one’s head.
“I don’t think I’ve seen a profile where a girl would write anything at all. They would just upload photos and wait for messages“- I had experience over 10 years ago with two online dating services (match. com and plenty of fish. com) where long written profiles were the norm. I don’t remember ever seeing a profile consisting of only a photo. I’ll add a significant clarification: I looked at people in their 40s and 50s at the time, a different age group than what you’ve been looking at.
“It just seems to me that getting rejected by ten girls in real life is a more enjoyable experience than sending similar messages into the void and waiting days for an answer” – if you ever decide to pursue online dating (and it is up to you, I am not invested in you pursuing it), “waiting days for an answer” would be a painful and ineffective strategy. You don’t wait in the context of an online dating site.
“My conditioning was that having sexual desire toward women is bad… Sexual desire is malignant intent, and expressing it to anyone is unspeakable crime. Sounds ridiculous and silly, but to me it’s a fundamental truth about the world” – I had a similar conditioning in regard to sexual desire and expression. I am not free from this conditioning but I am not tormented by it anymore. I am willing to discuss this issue with you in a delicate kind of way, nothing too straightforward, of course.
“I remember there was this time when I was in a better mental state and I asked a girl out. It turned out she was married, but she took her time to thank me and to let me know that she was flattered and grateful. She seemed sincere. My mind won’t register such information. Sexual desire is malignant intent” – one possibility that comes to my mind is that when you were a boy, you innocently expressed an interest in a girl or a woman, maybe in a word, a sound or in a facial expression, and you were terribly shamed for it.
anitaJuly 28, 2022 at 3:32 pm #404674
Hi Silent Rossi
I agree with you about online dating. The statistics for men are shockingly awful to connect with matches. I do believe your goal to meet someone in person is a sensible one.
I understand where Jupiter is coming from. Personally, I refused to date anyone who didn’t take the time to get to know me as a person because asking me before they knew me felt very superficial.
One difficultly of befriending people and then dating is that people can lead you on. So my recommendation is not to leave it too long before asking someone out. A month is more than enough.
As a woman, I found it difficult when men befriended me, only to ask me out. Then abandoned the friendship when I said no. So it’s important to consider if friendship is something that you are happy to continue with someone who says no. It’s also important to accept no as an answer and emotionally move on.
Dating is very tricky because it is a lottery. When someone says no, it doesn’t reflect poorly on you. Even the most attractive men get rejected.
We all have ideas of what we are looking for in relationships on top of chemistry. My question to you is what traits do you think are important in a partner?
For me, kindness is important because abuse sucks. Talent/skill/passion are very attractive. Communication skills are generally important. Mental and physical health are beneficial. Confidence is also attractive. Taking care of your appearance (wearing well fitting clothes, styled hair etc) is a good way to show that you care about yourself. I think responsibility is an important trait when it comes to serious relationships as ultimately the plan is to build a life with a partner.July 28, 2022 at 3:38 pm #404675
Also, I’m sorry that someone told you that very human desires for sex or a partner are wrong. They are natural parts of life.July 29, 2022 at 8:01 am #404695
Dear Silent Rossi:
You shared that you expect “the worst from people”, that you don’t “expect some gender to be more vile than the other” (suggesting that you expect all people to be vile), that you “hate people in general”, that you “deny humanity to all people“, and that for you, it is a “fundamental truth” that “sexual desire is malignant intent, and expressing it to anyone is unspeakable crime“.
Sexual desire is part of being human, and all humans having arrived at a certain age, express sexual desire in one way or another. Therefore, what you are saying is that humanity is inherently very bad (malignant) and very guilty.
“I do deny women humanity, the same way I deny humanity to all people, men and women, myself included“-
– to deny people their humanity sounds like to dehumanize people, that is, to view and treat people as not deserving empathy or respect.
You also wrote: “I don’t care to treat people with anything but compassion. There was already enough pain caused at the hands of people, no need to breed more of it” – best I understand this, without further input by you, is that you feel that people do not deserve compassion but you treat them with undeserved compassion so that they do not become, through their words and actions, even more malignant than they already are.
I would like to communicate with you further.
anitaJuly 29, 2022 at 11:20 am #404718
I think I am not able to answer your question about partner’s traits in any sensible manner, as I don’t have experience with partners, and anything I might think I would value are just fantasies or semi-educated guesses.
I think most of the attractive traits do not differentiate and would look good on both genders.
I say honesty and willingness to communicate are important. There’s no communication without honesty, and no relationship without communication.July 29, 2022 at 11:49 am #404720
My words probably looked disconcerting. I don’t have a need to discuss that part of my demons, but I am fine to talk about it, if you wish so.
I have a deep hatred for humans. I think I had it ever since school or earlier, when I became target of fox hunt among my peers for the crime of being different.
My limiting belief about sexuality has nothing to do with that hatred, as it only mentions me and my desires, and not other people.
I have found out that it didn’t matter how many hours I would dedicate to meditation practice and listening to my body or mind. The hatred wouldn’t leave.
I think that hatred is my friend. It helped me make sense of the collapsing world, it protected me from wrongdoers, it kept me company when no one else would.
It does make my life more difficult, but as of now, my answer is just choose peace whenever I have strength for it.
The only way it affects other people is by depriving them of my company, which isn’t such a huge loss for them, I would figure.
My choice for compassion and peace has nothing to do with hatred. Having experienced abuse, I do not wish to walk the path of my tormentors.
Why does my writing sound so pretentious and also old-fashioned?
What I mean to say is, I don’t think that hatred and compassion contradict themselves. It’s just different parts of me.
Like when you might hate a family member for some deed, but also like them because they are family and human.
That’s best I can put it for now, without delving unnecessarily further.July 29, 2022 at 1:15 pm #404723
Dear Silent Rossi:
“I have a deep hatred for humans. I think I had it ever since school or earlier, when I became target of fox hunt among my peers for the crime of being different… I think that hatred is my friend. It helped me make sense of the collapsing world, it protected me from wrongdoers.. The only way it affects other people is by depriving them of my company”-
-so hatred for humans is your friend because humans are the enemy. Hating the enemy (staying away) is keeping you safer than if you loved the enemy (if the fox loved the hunters and no longer stayed away by running, it would get killed).
“My choice for compassion and peace has nothing to do with hatred. Having experienced abuse, I do not wish to walk the path of my tormentors… I don’t think that hatred and compassion contradict themselves“- let’s say that you have a relationship with a woman for the first time in your life, something you said that you are interested in (“I have never held a girl’s hand. I’d like to change that”, original post), how does the hate and compassion look and sound like, in the context of the relationship? Do you stay away when you feel hate, approach when you feel compassion?