Hi anita

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking about CBT or hypnotherapy when I go home, in order to calm my nerves. Therapy is good but I think for an over thinker like me it can exacerbate the problem when im alone and trying to “therapy” myself. Thats what the trip helped me with, I saw the anxiety as the issue, not what im getting anxious about.

You wrote “your need for him is too intense”… can you explain that? I mean, I understand its correct, (clearly it is too intense) but it would help to deconstruct it for me. Then I can tell myself this overthinking, overanalysing has a cause and I can switch it off. What drives someone, me, to have this intense need for him? What dynamics push this extreme intense need for him all the time? What can I do to replace that or satisfy that myself?

I notice how lost I am a lot of the time… identity issues? Identity crisis?

Thanks again.

Hi Anita

Thanks, that really makes it clear.

Home is the UK for me. I’ll be back for christmas. Perhaps its interesting that I call the UK home, i.e. simply because my parents are there… shouldnt home be where I live? I know my birth country and my parents house will always be home in one sense but actually I think I feel it more like that. A bit like im still a child.

Case in point: yesterday I talked with my parents on the phone for the first time in 3 or 4 weeks, and after the trip. I had told my mother about it, mostly in case something happened during the trip. I also, when I was desperate and writing to everyone all the time, told her all about the situation with my bf. So, unfortunately Dad new as well.

Mum is usually supportive of me, not necessairly of my choices but she respects the choices I made. She didnt get nervous or angsty about the trip, even tho I felt like I had betrayed some trust or scared her unncessairily.

Dad… well, he sat silent for a long time, then said “Probably what i~say will be shouted down, but I don’t understand why you re introduced all that angst back into your life, you were much better independent”… At the time, I was ready for this. I knew he wouldnt approve, he liked my ex a lot when he visited previously, even called him another son. But now clearly he really doesnt like him anymore… and doesnt like my choice to go see him. THis morning, Ive woken up feeling much more depressed. Resigned to things… like im weak again, which I think is what my father was implying I was by going to see my ex.

My counsellor here said “dont tell everyone everything, keep things to yourself sometimes”… I realised that a few weeks ago, and on the trip again. Its actually exhausting to rake over it again and again. But, I felt happy with hte changes I had made, the progress, the growth. I wanted to share it with mum (and dad). I was prepared to hear a grumble from dad. But, it appears I wasnt totally ready. Im on robot mode again, a bit lost, feeling too ensconced in fantasies again rather than reality. I talked about it too with my friend again last night, and I could feel energy and security draining… I was aware and said OK this is the last time.

Sigh…

As you had said with targeting the anxiety, my old techniques had come back the last couple days. Of noticing, but not engaging with the thoughts, and returning to the present. I made several changes, sent important emails off, reorganized my room, wanted to go shopping to buy some stuff to spruce up the place a little… Now though its more complicated, a bit like I hold onto them but ignore them at the same time? I~m glum again.

Thanks again!

Yes, he didnt know at the time. I didnt even really say it this time, I just said it was a relationship etc.

With dad, I think its the usual story of masculinity, in his eyes, being somewhat incompatible with my sexuality.

I~’ve always been quite clearly “gay”. I was effeminate – stop acting like that, be a boy- this was always treated with a silent disregard. I didnt understand why as a child but I knew he didnt like my behaviour. There was a lot of shame.

All my friends were girls – you should really have male friends ben- this kind of thing. As if by having friends who are girls they bouys will see me as weak, thats why I dont have male friends. Interestingly, I started to drift towards male friends during puberty. Indeed one time I had a big bunch of guys over for a party… we started to be curious, me and a couple others… haha and guess who insisted on knowing what was going on in the bathroom? Dad… who then said it was weird and why were we in there.

I liked Drama, theatre etc -you should do a sport, like football, then the boys will like you -… again, feeling like I was wrong, doing something I shouldnt do.

I basically never felt any masculine input, in a sense. I was never recognized as a man by him, just as a sort of… idk… mistake

This idea too of always doing the wrong thing (by doing… what I was interested in and liked doing), was constantly re-inforced. See my dad worked in a special school, for kids who were too disturbed, violent or abused to function in normal schools. I would always be threatened with “youll end up in my school if you keep acting like that”… which, I can tell certainly didnt help my confidence.

Thanks anita.

This is very true. I think this is one of the core causes of my identity problems.

Remember i’d said his comment “why are you gonig to brazil? because youre gay? because you like men?” was so damning? So unexpectedly hurtful? I think I realised now why it was. It was a mystery at the time, because I had been at university for 3 years and had, as you said, been creating new pathways. I had started accepting myself. But, I think, with it so deep inside, I had not “unlearned” or left dormant for long enough those shaming pathways that are so strong. So along comes he with that statement and it destroyed me on some level. Thats why I was incapable of feeling happy or fulfilled or enjoying anything. All sensuality had disappeared. I couldnt properly be in the relationship with my boyfriend, couldnt go and commit to him, or anything for that matter.

I think, quite genuinely, I still have that inside me. Indeed, after my “identity crisis”, I clung closer to the ideals of my parents, especially my father. In a weird way I started to think, oh, I can help him or understand him better, I can be closer to him, I~’m doing a masters degree at a good university etc. But I lived in shame and didnt enjoy my life.

But, a new definition of strength… thats whats missing. Thats what I had gained and lost because of him. Thats what I had lost again these last days (tho I feel it will come back). I still resent myself for being effeminate, even tho I accept it. I dont hate it, I dont hate myself. But I dont love myself or let myself express it anymore. I kind affected a change, which I suppose is just adapting to my suroundings (I dont feel like I repress my effeminate side). But, my sexuality is dented, so is my sensual connection to the world, or perhaps, just my connection to the world as a whole.

While i~m writing this, I keep looking back at what you wrote… that what he said is not true. I used to believe that, and got grumpy towards my parents ( Ithink in my first post I wrote how I was so distanced from them when I was at my strongest in university)…. but then, guilt or remorse or some emotion over powers me. I want to be close to my parents. I love my mother a lot… do I love my father? I used to hate him so much… I feel like that is juvenile (after all hate isnt useful either, but I dont know how to constructively feel/think about my father)… I keep waiting for reconciliation, perhaps that time has passed. I see he is more honest, open and constructive with me on so many other things, he is not judgemental of everything I do now. (I still do no sports and am still gay after all)… I keep hoping for something, but maybe this occupies too much of my life.

That its not wrong to be who I am… gosh, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel where I believe that honestly and earnestly… but its so hard to break out of the slumber. I dont feel like I am qualified to recognize myself as the man I am. I dont have any grounds to call myself a man, a person, a force in the world.

True again, I agree.

In the sense of leaving my father and partly my mother too out of my day-to-day life:

I find it very hard to seperate from my parents and to feel “alone”… in the world. Maybe I should use the word independent, but it feels like alone. Indeed this parallels with my boyfriend, a real fear of being alone at the moment and the last few years. Writing this I keep remembering the immense sadness I used to feel, as a toddler, when my mother left me at the nursery. You know, I remember very well that I learnt to tell the time very early, before most other kids. Why? Because I would look at the clock to know when mum was coming to pick me up again. If she was late, I would be terrified, cry, sob, wail. I think she didnt understand why, but I would hear her joking about it with her friends, or constantly trying to convince me too that its ok, its just a few hours, she~´ll be back later. Somedays it was ok, somedays I was incosolable.

I did better at school, but again, if mum (Dad was always worknig) were late to pick me up, I would be terrified, looking, desperately trying to see, was that her behind the hedge?! was that her car?! Again no one could convince me to relax… I would play with toys maybe if they were offered, but I would be sat there, tense, with fear, a sense of real deep dread that she had died or I was abandoned. I remember practically every hometime was a stressful experience, the only times I was fine was when mum was waiting already. But even then, I was worried until the very moment I saw her.

To think I will just perhaps not talk to them, I get very sad. Disney movies where the mother dies would kill me. I~m remembering more now… once I watched a crimewatch show, a woman was murdered and whenever mum and dad went out to dinner, I would cry and cry, thinking they would never come back, especially mum. The woman´s screams from the reconstruction, the ugly e-fit of hte murderers face…. I would walk around and around while they were getting ready. I would sit and stare at my mum putting on her make up, trying to convince her to stay, to let me go with them. I would feel totally incosolable… the babysitters were always trying to their best to stop me crying, help me to go to sleep. But it wouldnt happen.

And you know writing this I almost do the same with my boyfriend now… I sit and stare at him while he gets ready, even to go have a shower… When we dont talk, I feel the same loneliness and abandonment. If I dont talk to my parents too, I feel like nothing happened even. I didnt experiuence it regardless… .

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Ben.

Thanks.

I also get nervous and resntful towards useful advice too… I was reading something you wrote earlier, and also remembering advice a friend had given me… I used to sort of get resentful to what dad said sometimes. Sometimes, people say things and I know they are right, they are good for me, but I sort of self-sabotage? I dont assimilate, I assimilate like its been corrupted. It gets assimilated, but tainted with dads energy. I~m remembering this from childhood and adolescence too. Dad started to give constructive advice, but, in a way, because he had given it, even tho it made sense, I sort of refused to act it out. I stayed i nteh middle ground. I stayed in at home rather than go out and get a job, which would have given me money and independence and confidence. But, he had told me it would give me these things, so, I refused because I wanted to do tthings my way.

But, I sort of sabotaged myself in this… even at university, getting a job was hard, and didnt feel like a reflection of me, because it was always dads voice, and I hated the idea of pleasing it, or pleasing him. Then.. idk what happened. I sort of tried to act like that was a good idea, I think… after I lost myself.

Today, I can see how I can feel better… I know what I have to do… but I have locked up again… for some reason, perhaps related to this impulse with listening to my dads good advice… I know that im sat here and can feel completely the same as I did yestyerday, but I feel like no, I have to stay like “this”… for some reason. I don~t understand it.

Im not letting myself enjoy life. Maybe it would be letting him get away with it, in my current state of being too close to my parents for my own good. I dont feel powerful enough to be alone, yet I did yesterday, I didnt feel any need for my boyfriend (love for him, yes, but not for his validation)…

Actually writing tyhis i~m feeling quite strongly, perhaps denying it, persecuted or punishing myself for ever involving myself again with my boyfriend… its actually pushing me away from him… from letting this be my story… my dads condemnation. I cant just think well, whatever happens happens, its all a great book to write when im old… like I used to see life. Even tho the problems with me and my relatiponship with my boyfriend are scary and trigger some anxziwty and abandonment in me, it feels like the end of the world because… rather than it all being an amazing experience of both highs and lows, instead, theres some sort of rule book im breaking… this mysterious life that he holds for me where I only know what ive done wrong and seemingly never do anything right… or even when I do, it could have been improved… If me and my boyfriend falter, its almost like I couldnt take the hit, not because its upsetting, I can cope, but almost I couldnt see a future for myself… how could I be gay and let a relationship fail? Wouldnt that prove gay men cant be together properly? (punsihing thoughts of look how promiscious and open gay men are with sex…) Thats clouding my relationship I think, importantly cloduing my relationship of myself… I cant leave my bf alone too because I have to prove its a loving relationship all the time as well as my abandonment issues making me cling to him. But this weakness is contrary to my originalyl formed self as a worldly confident traveller of the world who simply wanted a companion to travel with, share experiences with… I see myself pressuring myself to live in a life of having a fast German car (like dad wants) and a house in the UK, a good job in a bank…

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Ben.

Hi anita, sorry I edited my older post while you replied to it!… Anyway I agree with you. There is a conflict… I can only be independent being angry with my parents, which I feel is unfair to them and the world, I dont want the driver of my life to be anger… I want to love and forgive, but, as you pointed out, that seems to draw me down into fear and this conflict and anxiety.

I think I identified that in my last paragraph I wrote in… There is me, I finally found again… a guy who wants to travel and get lost inthe world and all its things. Being actually quite independent and confident that all that the world throws me is good game, to be written down, experienced or taken in… but this requires some anger to drive me away… it certainly did bfore… I remember I got so annoyed at my mother trying to help me unpack at university. Now I look back… you know, I~m preoccupied with death of my mother for some reason. I feel if I leave my parents a little more distant, Im almost… killing them? Idk, like my mother will die of abandonment, or when she dies i~ll be full of regret I didnt love her and show her enough of this love… I think she did use to manipulate me sometimes to show love and affection...

My edit from my last post just to be consistent…

Actually writing tyhis i~m feeling quite strongly, perhaps denying it, persecuted or punishing myself for ever involving myself again with my boyfriend… its actually pushing me away from him… from letting this be my story… my dads condemnation. I cant just think well, whatever happens happens, its all a great book to write when im old… like I used to see life. Even tho the problems with me and my relatiponship with my boyfriend are scary and trigger some anxziwty and abandonment in me, it feels like the end of the world because… rather than it all being an amazing experience of both highs and lows, instead, theres some sort of rule book im breaking… this mysterious life that he holds for me where I only know what ive done wrong and seemingly never do anything right… or even when I do, it could have been improved… If me and my boyfriend falter, its almost like I couldnt take the hit, not because its upsetting, I can cope, but almost I couldnt see a future for myself… how could I be gay and let a relationship fail? Wouldnt that prove gay men cant be together properly? (punsihing thoughts of look how promiscious and open gay men are with sex…) Thats clouding my relationship I think, importantly cloduing my relationship of myself… I cant leave my bf alone too because I have to prove its a loving relationship all the time as well as my abandonment issues making me cling to him. But this weakness is contrary to my originalyl formed self as a worldly confident traveller of the world who simply wanted a companion to travel with, share experiences with… I see myself pressuring myself to live in a life of having a fast German car (like dad wants) and a house in the UK, a good job in a bank…

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Ben.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Ben.

Perhaps… I certainly feel that with my father… My mother not so much, i~ve always been closer and know her pain (like everyone, her parents had issues, she had a crappy mother). I can “forgive” her in some way, I think perhaps because the pain she caused was much earlier in my life… when I was older she was supportive… hmm but actually supportive in my contempt towards my dad when he was in and out of our lives… But, she was loving. She supported my drama, took me on little trips while dad was off with another woman… (he would return at least once a week, insult me somehow and make me feel liek a disappointment, then argue with my mother and leave… me, a teenager, my mother going through menopuase)…. I see a lot of sympathy for my mother… We were together, just me and her, for about 6 years while my father~s presence was patchy. She was unemployed, depressed, being cheated on and only got dressed before I came home from school…

I can see too ,when I was a baby, both my parents were unemployed, very stressed. BUt…they always said how my crying would keep them up at night, in fact, they still talk about this when my nephew cries etc, how they dont like that my sister in law responds to him instantly… as if he should learn to not cry somehow? On some moral level? as well as because.. of course boys dont cry. I seperated from my mum and dad at some point… maybe in my despair at losing my identity, I reattached? Is that a thing?

Dad… hmm for sure, I want justice. I know I want it, but I sort of shy away from actually getting it. I remember when I was 17 I shouted at him for at least an hour about all the pain he had caused me… I was drunk after a party. He accepted… sat quietly… he was attentive, I could see pain and hurt, regret etc on his face, but he didnt really open up about why… indeed everytime, he sort of turns it back towards me. He does this to my mother too when she pleads for him to just accept he had an affair so she can hear him admit it and move on… he gets annoyed that she brought it up again and tells her shes the one who disturbed the peace… (peace which is think is just both of them being tired arguing their entire relationship)…

I felt vindicated when I had shouted at dad… I still create arguments in my head with him.. but, a part of me goes… please, can we just leave this alone and move on with life? Im not sure, I think, which part of me says that… is it me? Genuine me? Me who is tired of carrying this baggage? Or is the the scared part in disguise trying to not trigger dads disapproval? I want to be at peace, you know? I tell myself shouting at him isnt the solution. But, I notice im frustrated all the time and shout at other pepole… innocent people on the bus for example… well, not shouting, aloud… I get angry and call them names in my head. But, this is exhausting, I want ot love the world I live in and this negative energy is draining. I see dads problems too, his father who was in the war, saw terrible things and wasnt emotionally available at all except for extreme fits of anger, which my dad has, and I have too…

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Ben.